The Wiccan Rede

[princessellie]

I've just been reading through the long version of the wiccan rede and i noticed there was a line that said

''deosil go by the waxing moon, chanting out your baleful tune''

doesn't baleful mean like...sinister? am i understanding this wrong? if anyone knows it would be very helpful

thank you x

[Agaliha]

This part:

Deosil go by the waxing Moon,
Chanting out the joyful tune.
Widdershins go by the waning Moon,

Chanting out the baneful rune.

I'm just taking a guess here... this isn't my area of expertise.

The rune, from various websites refers to the "Witch's Rune"...

And dictionary.com says baneful means:

1. exceedingly harmful 2. deadly or sinister; "the Florida eagles have a fierce baleful look" [syn: baleful (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/baleful)] Also:

Usage Note: Baleful and baneful overlap in meaning, but baleful usually applies to something that is menacing or foreshadows evil: a baleful look. Baneful most often describes that which is actually harmful or destructive: baneful effects of their foreign policy.And:

Baleful: 1.full of menacing or malign influences; pernicious. 2. Obsolete. wretched; miserable.It gives no other meanings, so I'm assuming you are correct. Unless it has a less than literal meaning in the Rede. :huh:

[princessellie]

hmm i think im gna have to look into this a bit more, thanks hun x

[princessellie]

I think I've figured it out. Widdershins go by the waning moon chanting out the baneful tune.

Isn't the waning moon and widdershins both used for banishing. Maybe that's why it is baneful, not to anyone, but to the thing you are trying to banish?

[Agaliha]

That makes sense. Widdershins is counter-clockwise so it can be taken to mean waning, or taking away of something.

As I said the Rede isn't my area of expertise :lol:

[Gede]

Blessings,
I am not a Wiccan but I have studied the Wiccan Rede in its various forms deeply before. The 'fully-fleshed' Rede of the Wiccae which contains that stanza was written by Lady Gwen Thompson who submitted it to the Pagan magazine Green Egg in its earlier incarnation, I think in the 70s. Lady Gwen said that it came from her paternal grandmother who was a Witch.


Widdershins go by the waning moon, chanting out the baneful tune

Widdershins (more accurately) means 'against the sun'; conversely deosil means 'with the sun'. Before clocks there was the sun :) It also makes Witchcraft in the southern hemisphere (where I live) much easier to live when that understanding is in place.

Traditionally going widdershins is said to counter-act malevolent Magick, or, in some folk-stories, it can open the portal to Faerie itself. Some people do believe that going widdershins at all however is an indication of 'black Magick'. I do not agree.

The waning moon - banishing, driving away, etc. Standard 101 correspondence stuff.

Baneful tune "a tune/song full of bane/harm"

So it seems to be saying "Dance widdershins on the waning moon and sing a malevolent song (a curse)"
Hm...I am not sure. This is apparently traditional Wiccan lore here, so it could really mean anything :lol:

Khaire, Slainte~

[Sakurako]

Isn't the waning moon and widdershins both used for banishing. Maybe that's why it is baneful, not to anyone, but to the thing you are trying to banish?


Thats what I always thougt it meant :uhhuhuh:

[Lunacie]

And - just to make this a little more confusing :giggle: - it is said that the poem originally went like this...



Deosil go by the waxing Moon - Sing and dance the Wiccan rune.
Widdershins go when the Moon doth wane, An' the Werewolf howls by the dread Wolfbane.


Lady Gwen Thompson says that the poem called the Wiccan Rede (or the Wiccan Crede) was taught to her by her paternal grandmother.
from: http://www.waningmoon.com/ethics/rede3.shtml

I don't know when, or why, the words were change from "moon doth wane / dread Wolfbane" to "waning moon / baneful rune" or who made the change, but I tend to believe that the Werewolf Moon is the original version.

January is called the Moon of the Wolf in some cultures, so it may be possible that the dance only went widdershins once a year, when the moon was waning in the month of January. The whole poem has references to the different Sabbats and Esbats.

Side note... deosil is pronounced "dee zul".

[SoulFire]

Blessings,
The 'fully-fleshed' Rede of the Wiccae which contains that stanza was written by Lady Gwen Thompson who submitted it to the Pagan magazine Green Egg in its earlier incarnation, I think in the 70s. Lady Gwen said that it came from her paternal grandmother who was a Witch.

This is debatable and dubious, since Thompson said she destroyed the original version of her grandmother's lorebook, and there is no other documentation as evidence in existence. Whereas, there is evidence of the eight-words couplet in a publicly recorded speech given by Doreen Valiente in 1964. Furthermore, Thompson's version contains anachronisms that were probably added later. I usually hate to cite Wikipedia, but there's a fairly good summary posted here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wiccan_Rede#Dating_the_Rede).

Gardner himself actually cited The Adventures of King Paulsole, 1901, a fictional book/character with a similar maxim. In The Meaning of Witchcraft, Gardner says: "[Witches] are inclined to the morality of the legendary Good King Pausol, 'Do what you like so long as you harm no one.'" Though the actual quote is: "I. Do no wrong to thy neighbor. II. Observing this, do as thou pleasest." St. Augustine (fourth century) also wrote, "Love God, and do what you will/want." Gardner was probably also at least partially influenced by Crowley's maxim: "Do what thou wilt..."

[~Belladonna~]

I think I've figured it out. Widdershins go by the waning moon chanting out the baneful tune.

Isn't the waning moon and widdershins both used for banishing. Maybe that's why it is baneful, not to anyone, but to the thing you are trying to banish?

Yes, this sounds about right, IMO :thumbsup:

[Shawn Blackwolf]

I've just been reading through the long version of the wiccan rede and i noticed there was a line that said

''deosil go by the waxing moon, chanting out your baleful tune''

doesn't baleful mean like...sinister? am i understanding this wrong? if anyone knows it would be very helpful

thank you x

Princess Ellie :

I am not modern Wiccan...and I have no desire to argue with
anyone , here...no dispute with anything previously said...

However , to share a chant , from my Faery Tradition...

Not the path Soulfire follows , which I respect greatly...
just want to make that clear , only to avoid any confusion...

This is our Cone of Power chant...please note the third word
from the top...it may give a clue...that is where I shall leave it...


The chant is posted here , in "reverse"...thus , I would "see"
"DhoarnnFay" , as the energy first pulled up from the earth...

"SoMonn" , as the Cone of Power , raised , expanded , and
spinning...

DhoarnnFay
J'yarRu
Sinasdar ( "Sinister" )
AnAeggle
OinnOch
TerRrea
DeaKaen
SoMonn

Make of it what you will...nothing...or ?

( Please note also : Dea , Kaen are two sonics , together...switched in order...NeakAed... )

( Thus : NeakAed + Terrrea ; again...make of it what you will...nothing...or ? )

[Louisvillian]

Idoesn't baleful mean like...sinister? am i understanding this wrong? if anyone knows it would be very helpful
Baneful, yes. Baleful just means "sad, melancholic" last time I checked.

[Shawn Blackwolf]

Baneful, yes. Baleful just means "sad, melancholic" last time I checked.

Must have been awhile ago you checked , Louisvillian...:lol:

You shall see why I lovingly laugh , in a moment...

Webster's Dictionary of the English Language
Unabridged / Encyclopediac Edition

Copyright 1977 by J.G. Ferguson Publishing

pg. 142 , top , central column...

baleful :

1. evil ; destructive ; pernicious ; calamitous ; deadly

2. sorrowful ; woeful ; sad ; [ Archaic ]

So...no dispute...just note...in 1970 , the meaning you
cited was considered archaic...( personally , I love it...:thumbsup: )

But it does also have other meanings , same as baneful...:uhhuhuh:

Just sayin'...:thumbsup:

[Louisvillian]

2. sorrowful ; woeful ; sad ; [ Archaic ]
That's the one I meant, and that's the context I've heard it used in before.
But, in retrospect, the other definition used and the manner which others have discussed it in, makes far more sense.:boing: