Men's Mysteries

[Mithrea]

Okay, drawing from the same article: http://www.paganet.org/pnn/v07/i1/feature_sample2.php

There is an area of seeming gender imbalance within paganism which I want to address. In contemporary paganism we tend to enact two kinds of mysteries, Women's Mysteries (for women only), and, for lack of a better phrase, Mixed-Gender Mysteries. What I don't see happening is a Men's Mysteries movement, and I'm curious about that. What is it about men's relationships to each other and to deity, male or female, that discourages a male-only experience?

I have actually seen this come into play IRL. I tried to help a guy start a men-only group that would meet at the same time as our women-only meditation group. It seemed like male pagans were afraid to join because it went against their beliefs. I never thought about it in these terms, but it seems to me that we aren't the only ones that are "out of balance" -- if you believe in that idea.

What do you think?

[patch]

I'm pretty sure bonewits did something to do with mens mysteries.
I shall look it up.

[HetHert]

I have practiced with a couple traditions that address Men's Mysteries. Both put an emphasis in a balance of power and the nature of each gender in the position of individual power as well as shared and group power. I feel that when this approach is utilized the mysteries of each gender are better revealed as each is empowered toward self-discovery and acceptance of roles inside the tradition as well as in life.
I haven't encountered a male only path, however I have seen a book for practicing for men called "The 21 Lessons of Merlyn.." http://www.amazon.com/21-Lessons-Merlyn-Study-Druid/dp/0875424961/ref=pd_bbs_sr_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1210880755&sr=8-2
check out the reviews to find out if the book is what you are looking for.

[Lunacie]

I have seen books that actually address men's mysteries, but cannot remember the titles or the authors at the moment.

I do know that there is a men's Wiccan group near Kansas City, and that there are a couple of weekends set aside for men (just as there are a couple of weekends set aside for women) at Camp Gaia west of K.C.

Checked at Amazon:

Wicca Spellcraft for Men - by A.J. Drew
http://www.amazon.com/Wicca-Spellcraft-Men-J-Drew/dp/156414495X/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1210884057&sr=8-2

Gay Witchcraft: Empowering the Tribe - by Christopher Penczak
http://www.amazon.com/Gay-Witchcraft-Empowering-Christopher-Penczak/dp/1578632811/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1210884057&sr=8-4


But you're right, there doesn't seem to be as many resources for men's mysteries as there does for Dianic Wicca.

[Tanya]

I know of a book called Iron Jo (http://www.amazon.com/Iron-John-Book-About-Men/dp/0679731199)hn that my Jungian prof (male) really liked. I've bought several copies for men in my life.. probably have it on my shelf at home.. never read it though... its on my 'to do list!"

[Anubis RainHawk]

Okay, drawing from the same article: http://www.paganet.org/pnn/v07/i1/feature_sample2.php



I have actually seen this come into play IRL. I tried to help a guy start a men-only group that would meet at the same time as our women-only meditation group. It seemed like male pagans were afraid to join because it went against their beliefs. I never thought about it in these terms, but it seems to me that we aren't the only ones that are "out of balance" -- if you believe in that idea.

What do you think?

I think there is definitely an imbalance within modern Paganism in regards to gender, but I do think its something that we as a whole are actively engaging with. Isaac Bonewits wrote a book about males in Paganism and even has a column in newWitch magazine specifically for male pagans. There's a group in my area that runs male-only full moon rituals called, 'The Brotherhood of the Moon'. I went to one and it was a little wacky for my tastes.

There's the Unnamed Path, a tradition for Men-who-love-Men, but I don't know of any groups or traditions that practice male-only that are not exclusively queer-oriented. I do believe that it's important for them to exist and can help men become better and more complete men the same way Women's Mysteries aids women.

[alwaysfallingup]

I've run into the same issues. When we host our retreat every year, as soon as the fliers come out, we get e-mails with complaints that we aren't including men and that it's unfair to the men in the area. Every year, we suggest that the men should host their own retreat and that we'd be glad to help in any way possible by sharing our organizational strategies, advertising help, etc. And every year, no one ever wants to do it. It seems that, in this area at least, the men don't want their own retreat, they want to come to our retreat.

I'm not sure why this is. I do have a friend who is in a men's only group, but it is focused on gay/queer/transgendered men, so it isn't really focused on all men but is a bit more focused than a general men's group would be. I'm not sure what it is that prevents these men, who want an event to attend, from organizing one and enjoying it.

[MonSno_LeeDra]

I think part of the problem lies in the fact a lot of male mysteries where tied to the hunt and man's interaction with the natural world about him. The natural world not being one of birth but of movement and interaction.

In some ways I still remember my first blooding and the things that went with it. Yet that blooding was also a thing tied to a small group that had experienced the same things and where part of the larger grouping I was maturing into.

The grouping was also an important factor in the male bonding and mysteries. Think about it, you are going into the woods with rifles and the means to kill and honestly you had better trust the people about you and have an understanding of thier skill levels.

That trust and sense of uniformaty are part of the things that tie the male mysteries together. What I think many women do not realize is that you can't just take us and drop us in a room and expect us to bond. I can't begin to list the number of times my wife and her friends have tried to get us men together and think we should have so much in common yet other than being men we have nothing in common.

In many ways we asked trival questions that we really don't want an answer to or care about for that matter. It's like the movie "Animal House" where the one guy walks up to the table and asks "You guys playing cards?" when it is quite clear they are. He is seem as an outsider from that point on.

I think why many men want to attend the female retreats is because in some ways it allows us to drop the facade of Malehood and puts all of us (Men) on a similar uncommon footing. It also removes the alpha male facet somewhat.

As strange as it may sound we willing give up control of the situation and allow another to decide for us what we shall do. On another front I think it falls back upon the deference of authority to our mothers. I might stand and fight with my father to test my bonds and placement but would back down in a heart beat before my mother.

[RuneCast]

Pardon me for barging in,

but it seems to me that we aren't the only ones that are "out of balance" -- if you believe in that idea.For me the idea is a fact. We're all human, right? Well, to be human is to be out of balance. We're always seeking balance in one new configuration of where the weights are placed in opposition to each other. Some find the balance that is right for them. This can often be found in faith and the strivings that it inspires us to undertake.

I offer my view of this as thought exercise, this isn't a sermon.
Before I even begin let me state that I am not critical of Dainic Witchcraft nor any of its male oriented counterparts as spiritual faiths. I'm a loner and have no interest in criticizing others. But I did encounter the same issue now under discussion earlier in my development and here is how I solved it. The gendered qualities of existence are extremely important to me and I had to come up with a new way of relating to them when I chose paganism as my faith.

The Goddess did not create The God, nor did He create Her. And no one created Them, nor The Four Elements.

Consider the implications of this for gendered conceptions of the divine, I ask this rhetorically.

Now as to what we call reality:

'Wholeness' or the Oneness of everything is only a harmony of The Six Truths, God, Goddess, Earth, Air, Fire, Water. But The Six Truths exist independently of the harmony between them.

I am equally a child of The God and The Goddess. Yes I am a man, but going so far as to establish a school of mysteries for each gender, cuts me off from something that is still accessible. As a man there are many aspects of The Goddess that are off limits to me. But that does not make what is still accessible any less vital. There's a lot to learn from The Goddess, even if you're a man. The difference should be understood and respected, but I feel that using it as a basis for spiritual learning is dangerous.

The Goddess and The God are an infinity of infinities more complicated than their expressions in human biology and spirituality.

We can learn only the barest minimum of The God and The Goddess by studying ourselves. The God and The Goddess will reveal what they choose to but what there is to learn about being a human man and/or woman may be a finite, closed set. I am not sure about this one, but it is possible. If it is true, Than we're probably just at the limit of new information already and our task is now to embark upon a long journey of unlearning eons of deeply ingrained cultural programming.
If it is not true, than we have to accept that our ability to understand ourselves and gender differences is forever limited, since there will always be more to learn.

Likewise,

Earth, Air, Fire, Water are an infinity or infinities more complicated than their expressions in any form or state of matter. They are also an infinity of infinities more complicated than their meanings in spiritual aesthetics.

Therefore, may I suggest that we're over-focusing on gender as a perspective of understanding what we are.
I recommend that everyone meditate on your relationships with Earth, Air, Fire, Water. See where it takes you. See what truths they reveal to you and how that changes your understanding of your relationship to The God and The Goddess.

[Lunacie]

Hmm, I wasn't necessarily seeing Women's Mysteries and Men's Mysteries as being limiting, any more than working with Earth for a time limits further work with any of the other elements. Or that Women's Mysteries focus solely on the Goddess while Men's Mysteries focus solely on the Gods. But even if they do, then one can also explore other mysteries, either simultaneously or at a later time.

[Aithne Cathasaigh]

Here are some that I've bought for my husband and son:
Christopher Penczak's "Sons of the Goddess",
"Wiccan Warrior: Walking a Spiritual Path in a Sometimes Hostile World" by Kerr Cuhulain (this one is excellent),
"Inner Temple Of Witchcraft: Magick, Meditation and Psychic Development" by Christopher Penczak

I haven't read these:
"The Wiccan Mysteries" by Raven Grimassi.

"Invoke The Gods: Exploring the Power of Male Archetypes"
by Kala Trobe

Wicca For Men: A Handbook for Male Pagans Seeking a Spiritual Path by A.J. Drew

The Pagan Man: Priests, Warriors, Hunters, and Drummers by Isaac Bonewits

And anything by Ronald Hutton, you can't go wrong with his books.

I am the ritual coordinator for our local pagan festival, and every year I beg for the men to present a Men's ritual. I only had one volunteer, and I had to go out and get him helpers, that's pretty sad.

Anyway, hope the list helps.
Aithne

[Silverfire Darkmoon]

I'm actually considering trying to get someone to run a men's ritual at our local Pagan Pride Day this year. It may be necessary for me to do it myself. But I think it would be an interesting thing to do.

One of the things I've noticed always gets brought up at discussions of men's and women's mysteries is that there's a fairly obvious point at which a woman becomes a woman, but there's nothing clear and simple like that for men.

[Lunacie]

Here are some that I've bought for my husband and son:
Christopher Penczak's "Sons of the Goddess",
"Wiccan Warrior: Walking a Spiritual Path in a Sometimes Hostile World" by Kerr Cuhulain (this one is excellent),
"Inner Temple Of Witchcraft: Magick, Meditation and Psychic Development" by Christopher Penczak

I haven't read these:
"The Wiccan Mysteries" by Raven Grimassi.

"Invoke The Gods: Exploring the Power of Male Archetypes"
by Kala Trobe

Wicca For Men: A Handbook for Male Pagans Seeking a Spiritual Path by A.J. Drew

The Pagan Man: Priests, Warriors, Hunters, and Drummers by Isaac Bonewits

And anything by Ronald Hutton, you can't go wrong with his books.

I am the ritual coordinator for our local pagan festival, and every year I beg for the men to present a Men's ritual. I only had one volunteer, and I had to go out and get him helpers, that's pretty sad.

Anyway, hope the list helps.
Aithne

Ha, Kerr Cuhulain... that's the author I couldn't remember.

I'm getting ready to read Wiccan Mysteries by Raven Grimassi, but I didn't think it spoke specifically to men and their mysteries?


I'm actually considering trying to get someone to run a men's ritual at our local Pagan Pride Day this year. It may be necessary for me to do it myself. But I think it would be an interesting thing to do.

One of the things I've noticed always gets brought up at discussions of men's and women's mysteries is that there's a fairly obvious point at which a woman becomes a woman, but there's nothing clear and simple like that for men.

I know that many primitive shamanistic societies celebrate a change when a boy becomes a man. I never really wondered what their criteria was, just a particular number of years?

[Aithne Cathasaigh]

I'm actually considering trying to get someone to run a men's ritual at our local Pagan Pride Day this year. It may be necessary for me to do it myself. But I think it would be an interesting thing to do.

One of the things I've noticed always gets brought up at discussions of men's and women's mysteries is that there's a fairly obvious point at which a woman becomes a woman, but there's nothing clear and simple like that for men.


I can't vouch for all, but within our local community we have a coming of age ritual for boys age 13 and up. They have meditations, quests, vision quests, and have to face the gods and goddesses, as well as other elements during the course of the night. The men have spent a huge amount of time doing this.

Some of the Men's mysteries I do know about, building a labyrinth, journey of the warrior, and one in which they had to look at the masks they wear and why.

[Thyrsos]

Honestly, I have never had any interest whatsoever in joining an all male group of any kind.

[RainInanna]

What I find with my male Pagan friends is often their men's mysteries have to do with their relationship with the feminine within and the Goddess. Jung would call it their anima. Perhaps this is why men would like to come to women's retreats - because there the goddess dwells quite clearly, because they realize by understanding women, they come to terms with the goddess. Perhaps it's easier for them to associate their anima with women then with some part of themselves, and they come to terms with the feminine still more easily by dealing with women then realizing that feminine is within. Perhaps there is still too much stigma for men to let the feminine come out, too much macho attitude, too many societal aspects on manly men and "not being a queer". Consider even in terms of pop culture references to sexuality - how long has it been ok for women to be masculine and be with other women? And how long have men been shown in the media as feminine and with other men?

I can only guess, not being a man.

[Thyrsos]

Yeah, I think RainInnana pretty much nailed it. Whenever I have found myself with a group of just males, (late, when all the girls have gone to bed) we invariably end up talking about them anyway.:weirdsmil

[Rowan Darkmoon]

I think that men have a hard time in modern-day Western society for a, variety of reasons, but for one of the facts that there is not a defined point at which a man becomes a man, but for men, it seems like it is a process.

In other words, men have to define manhood each day of their lives in a way that is not always comfortable for them. And, part of Western manhood is individuality, strength, and competition, not something that necessarily lends itself to great group dynamics.

In addition, I wonder if men are afraid of being accused of being biased if they do want "all-male" things, or if in someway that they are concerned about it being cheapened. It seems like men, at least in America, have two options for male bonding, the stereotyped drinking beer talking about chicks kind of stuff, or the Christian brotherhood organizations. Neither of which really fits for men of Neo-Pagan paths that are wanting to bond over issues of spirituality.