The big difference between Paganism and Christianity?

[dynamic_solstice]

Yesterday I was walking through my hometown 'Bedford' when I came across an interesting display. I am naturally inquisitive, so walked over to investigate. I was immediately pounced upon by a man I recognised from a Christian Bible Bashing event I had stupidly attended (As a rather too-proud Pagan!)

Immediately he launched into the ever so familiar, 'why we should all turn to God?' I admit I was interested and was not scared to tell him my Pagan views.

He seemed to drone on and on and on about why I was believing in a fake God, whereas his was the true God, how he knows this I really do not know???

As he talked I began to realise why we differ so much? I, like him do not dispute that small chunks of the Bible may be true and do agree with some Christian ethics.

However......................

Whilst he believes that God created us and remains seperate from our Universe, I believe that God/Goddess did create us, but embedded themselves in the Earth; Supporting the Pagan view that the whole Earth is sacred and represents God!

Any views on this???

[LostSheep]

Panentheism, basically, you mean?

I don't think it's totally impossible to relate that to Christianity, i don't think. I think it was only when Christian dogma began to be put in place, starting with Paul and reinforced by people like Constantine and Augustine, that the idea of God as something completley remote who was disgusted with the material world came to be the accepted wisdom. There are even some who've suggested the idea that that might have been what Jesus thought as well, that God is "here" and "there" at the same time, and the "Kingdom of God" didn't mean just something vague to hope for in the afterlife, but that he/she/he & she could be found by looking around us, if we knew what we were looking for.

So basically, i think, no, I don't think it's at all impossible.

[Fluoxetine]

I had similar thing but with Mormons. I just told them that I have a different outlook and a different way of going about. But I found it fun. They are a bit gullible so I like to play on that sometimes.

[Ladybug1258]

The one steady characteristic that remains obvious as the difference between Christians and Pagans is tolerance.

"the one true god" smacks of snobbery in my opinion. How can anyone be so vain or narrowminded to believe that his god is the "only right" god or the "one true path" toward heaven. Which begs the next question...is there a heaven?

Some maintain that where we are now is hell and it is up to us in our daily living to find our way toward a better place through good deeds, etc. Once done, we're then lead to our reward, heaven.

The bible thumpers annoy me with their "holier than thou" preachiness. I'm no scholar and know nothing by heart from what is said in the bible or what was done in ancient times except other ancient civilizations(Toltec, Aztec, Mayan etc.), so I won't even try to recite verbatim anything that speaks of pagans being right or christians being right. There must be something to the stories that are written. Someone had enough faith and belief in his heart to write what he/she did and had it placed in the bible. Some stories were never included, though, so it's not a complete biblical history. Several were left out, mainly due to the choices made by the Council of Nicea(sp?). So what do we not know because of these omissions? There may have been something truly earth-shaking, faith shattering within those lost tales.

I do not believe Jesus was anything other than a mortal man who had a strong faith in some higher power and was able to convince others of this higher power through his words. He was a great orator, no doubt. This being said, I also feel that he was the typical man of his time and culture, had a wife and perhaps even offspring. There is something magical in having children that nothing else on earth compares to. No where else can anything microscopic become something that influences the earth around us as we know it in less than a year's time.

There is something magical in the growth of the trees, plants, the bloom of a flower, the truth in the fragility as well as strength of the tiny hummingbird, the nobility of such creatures as eagles, whales or bison, the steadfastness of the mountains, oceans and rivers. We are nothing compared to these natural things and they will exist long after we cease to do so.

There is a greater strength in everything, we just don't always acknowledge it as we should or as often as we should. We are a tolerant group who will always have a difficult time agreeing with those who feel they are superior in their faith, but with those very words, they belittle themselves in hopes of greater dominion over others, much like a cult. We can truly rejoice in our pagan life style! Ours is one of joy in fellow man and the world around us is appreciative for our gentle touch.

*gets down off her soap box*

[Æthelflæd]

He seemed to drone on and on and on about why I was believing in a fake God, whereas his was the true God, how he knows this I really do not know???

Because the Bible says so, and if the Bible says so, it MUST be true!

Don't worry, that was sarcasm. ;)

[childofbast]

The one steady characteristic that remains obvious as the difference between Christians and Pagans is tolerance.


Eh... yes and no. While I think Pagans are more likely to be tolerant, it isn't always the case. And speaking for myself, I can actually be quite intolerant when it comes to Pagans clinging to erroneous facts. Not intolerant in a mean, nasty way - I just am not afraid to have a debate. It's how you can grow and evolve spiritually. ;)

~Melanie

[parallax]

I'm not much of a Christian scholar, I've never read the entire Bible so I am making this disclaimer as someone fairly ignorant of Christian beliefs..
But the biggest difference I'm aware of is the intrinsic nature of life. Christianity supposes that humans are sinful by nature, that we are born with a horrible taint that we can't get rid of, and we need to spend our life making up for sin. Most pagan religions (that I know of, at least) don't believe we are born inherently bad or evil and have no conception of original sin. That is the big difference. And it may not seem like much, but it is. The entire religion is formed around dealing with this original sin.

[Sequoia]

The biggest difference I've noticed?

Pagans generally don't worship Jesus.

(In fact, most Pagans I've encountered like to treat Jesus as though he's just as false a god as the pagan gods are to a fundamentalist. Not very tolerant, if you ask me.)

[Tanya]

beyond the point already made about tolerence... for me the crucial difference is the balance in my practice between the male and female creative principle....

I don't like to see my princple pooo poooed.:thumbsup:

[daibanjo]

There are a couple of differences;
Pagans do not believe in a Judgement day. There may be Karma or cause and effect following our actions but no big courthouse in the sky when you die.
Pagans do not believe in eternal damnation; You have to face the consequences of your actions but you don't get locked up in hell for eternity.
Pagans do not believe in a god of evil; There is no Satan capable of horrors and the things movies are made out of. There may be those who follow a path of chaos and those who see destruction and decay as part of life. But evil in the christian sense of the word is not part of the pagan path.
Pagans do not view god in a purely masculine form; pagans frequently see and honor the goddess.
Personal View; If my God were to appear before me, we would greet each other as friends. If jesus were real and he came back to earth, the christians would crucify him all over again.

[LostSheep]

The one steady characteristic that remains obvious as the difference between Christians and Pagans is tolerance.
:hrmm:

[cheddarsox]

There are so many pagan religions, that I think it's nearly impossible to find something that they all share, that is different from Christianity. Now if you are talking "neo-pagan" and I know some people don't like that term, but if we use it to denote the resurrection of old traditions by people in Western cultures most of whom have little direct ancestral connection to the traditions they now follow...then you can probably take a poke or two at answering this.

Because many of us do have some similar tendencies in the way we understand or practice our traditions that very well might not have been inherent in the trads of our ancestors. (though I can't know for sure)

What I am saying is that generally some Western liberal ethics tend to be associated with the modern pagan movement. I think they have less to do with the ancient aspects of our faiths than they do with the personalities of people who chose to practice pagan faiths.

When I was practicing Christianity, I supported most of the same issues I do now, and I find that to be true in many pagans I know. We were always more open to certain things, always more in touch with nature...and then found a faith that was a better fit, and had more people in it that shared our views on these things.

I don't know that ancient Druids, or Egyptians or Animists were comfortable with homosexuality, equality for the genders, or had tendencies toward vegetarianism for humane reasons, but those things tend to be associated with modern Western paganism. Not that the trads teach those things, but because the people attracted to paganism tend to support those things.

When people think "pagan" they get an image in their minds. A sorta 21st century hippie.

Most pagans don't really fit the image, but it's how we are imagined in people's minds. Most Christians don't fit the image of them that is stereotyped either. I mean...except when I actually was a Christian, no one has ever told me I am going to hell for my behavior. 20 years of paganism and no one has ever said that to me personally.

So, if we compare stereotypes, yes, we can find a main difference between the two groups, but if we compare realities, it's going to be hard to draw a straight dividing line.

[Louisvillian]

Any views on this???
It's not the main difference, IMO. I've met several pantheist and panentheist Christians and Jews. They believe that god is equally inside and outside everything, but in a Judeo-Christian theological setting.

The major difference between (neo)paganism and Christianity is the concept of salvation. Christianity holds that salvation from a sinful world and life is necessary and the only way through this is their God. OTOH, most neopagans believe that sin is non-existent, and thus salvation is a moot idea as there is nothing to be saved from, since all the world is viewed as sacred. Note: this sanctity of nature idea often goes hand-in-hand with a panentheist or pantheist view of nature, which doesn't necessarily apply to all neopagan religions.

[Xentor]

The biggest difference I've noticed?

Pagans generally don't worship Jesus.

Quite right.

I wonder what bible thumpers think of christian witches?

[Xentor]

most neopagans believe that sin is non-existent
I must not be a neopagan then. I might not consider the same actions sinful as a Christian, but I do consider some actions sinful. Killing someone, for instance, when not as an act of defense, I find sinful and punishable.


and thus salvation is a moot idea as there is nothing to be saved from
Agreeing with this, but for different reasons than the claimed lack of sin.


Note: this sanctity of nature idea often goes hand-in-hand with a panentheist or pantheist view of nature, which doesn't necessarily apply to all neopagan religions.
And I happen to consider myself a pantheist...

[Fireyone]

The biggest difference in my opinion is that the way the christian religions are set up, there is no direct link to god. The way to God must be through a church, a sacrament or a priest whereas in paganism God, Goddess is everywhere, in leaves and trees and most importantly, within.

[Louisvillian]

I must not be a neopagan then. I might not consider the same actions sinful as a Christian, but I do consider some actions sinful. Killing someone, for instance, when not as an act of defense, I find sinful and punishable.
I guess it depends on how one defines the word "sin". By "sin" I meant the Judeo-Christian idea of some act being in itself offensive to an omnipotent God, not simply something that is a bad thing to do.

And, keep in mind, I said "most". Not "all".

[Thyrsos]

Generally,

Most modern Christians are what I call "Contract Christians." The crucial point for them is not following the teachings of Christ, (which are for the most part very Pagan), it is pledging allegiance to Christ, much in the same way a Knight would pledge fealty to a feudal Lord or a King. Moral behaviour is considered secondary, since even the most vile sin is forgivable by this contract. In other words, if Hitler accepted Jesus at the last moment, sincerely, he would be in Heaven alongside all the other Christians.

IMHO, most modern Pagans believe in Karma and the evolution of the soul through countless incarnations on Earth. Most Pagans are curious, open to, and often explore paths from different cultures. Witchcraft, Zen Meditation, Hatha Yoga, and Shamanism are often practiced as disciplines together in perfect harmony. A Pagan can see the Divine, and then see the different ways that humans approach it as harmonious.

For the Christian, everyone else's god is their Devil.

[LacyRoze]

For the Christian, everyone else's god is their Devil.

For some Christians this is true, maybe even the majority, but not for all..

[childofbast]

There are a couple of differences;
Pagans do not believe in a Judgement day. There may be Karma or cause and effect following our actions but no big courthouse in the sky when you die.


That depends on the type of Pagan. As far as I know (and my knowledge on Egyptian mythology is a bit limited), the Egyptians believed that you were judged when you died.

[Louisvillian]

That depends on the type of Pagan. As far as I know (and my knowledge on Egyptian mythology is a bit limited), the Egyptians believed that you were judged when you died.
And, of course, there are Norse pagans, who have the whole Ragnarok event, which in a way counts as a doomsday event similar to the Judgement Day of Christian eschatology. So, some pagans do have a doomsday concept.

I still say the main disagreeing point between Pagans and Christians is the concept of salvation.

[LostSheep]

One difference is that paganism is all-embracing, dogma free, and welcoming of difference, whereas Christianity is monolithic and imposes rigid rules of dogma, and no one is allowed to deviate from the official line in the slightest, and everyone believes every word of the official sacred text without question. And what's more, exactly the same rules and dogma applies to every single one, whichever of the hundreds of different denominations or sects they may belong to.


... that seems to be what a lot of Pagans believe, anyway, it seems.

:hrmm:

[Thyrsos]

Oh, let's not forget the Christian concept of Original Sin, and all the joy THAT's brought.

Whereas I think most Pagans embrace, shall we say, the idea of Original Grace.

Also, any being who demands to be appeased with a human sacrifice would be considered a Demon by most Witches. Christians worship this same being as a God.

[Xentor]

I guess it depends on how one defines the word "sin". By "sin" I meant the Judeo-Christian idea of some act being in itself offensive to an omnipotent God, not simply something that is a bad thing to do.

And, keep in mind, I said "most". Not "all".
Point taken. Thanks for clarifying!


A Pagan can see the Divine, and then see the different ways that humans approach it as harmonious.
That's definitely my take.


... that seems to be what a lot of Pagans believe, anyway, it seems.
I was going to respond to your post until I saw that line. Well put! Some Pagans do seem to share some common bias about their own faith, the pagan faith of other Pagans, and about Christianity. The cure: two months membership at Mystic Wicks'.


I think most Pagans embrace, shall we say, the idea of Original Grace.
Didn't know that one yet. Is that like an Initial Sacrifice sprouting life in the universe?


Also, any being who demands to be appeased with a human sacrifice would be considered a Demon by most Witches. Christians worship this same being as a God.
Only if it's their own God requesting such a sacrifice. If it happens to be a God from a different civilisation, requesting the life of a female virgin, the same Christians all of a sudden see that being as an incarnation of the devil.

[Infinite Grey]

The big difference between Paganism and Christianity?

The power difference: pagans hold a thimble of influence over world matters compared to Christians.

Apart from that? Not much difference.

[Louisvillian]

Didn't know that one yet. Is that like an Initial Sacrifice sprouting life in the universe?
What I think he meant is that, unlike Christianity's view of human nature, most pagans see humans as beings that haven't fallen from grace, and thus lack a "taint of original sin"; hence, we still possess the original divine grace that we were born with, as do all living organisms. This also goes hand-in-hand with the difference in the salvation concept; in Christianity, this fall from divine grace is what makes necessary salvation, since to Christians, their God and Christ are seen as the only path towards a return to divine grace.

[childofbast]

The big difference between Paganism and Christianity?

The power difference: pagans hold a thimble of influence over world matters compared to Christians.

Apart from that? Not much difference.


Huh. It's so obvious, I never even thought of it. Excellent point.

[Hunger]

Paganism is so varied that about the only thing I can think of that is a completely true difference between Christianity and the various pagan religions throughout time is one thing.

2.1 Billion people who claim the Christian faith, active or no. That's a full 33% of all humans on earth.

It's a numbers game people. Wait until the next major apocalypse and it will change. After all any of the Christians that survive it by default will be 'left behind' to reference Jenkins and Lehaye. I doubt they'll be too happy about their god forgetting about them come apocalypse.

[Ladybug1258]

One thing I remember from when I was around 13 or so was that the preacher of the church my mother dragged me off to every Sunday morning (before I discovered I could get away with locking my door the night before - yes, I was a bit slow on the uptake as a kid) asked me if I was afraid of God. I briefly thought this may be a trick question and turns out I as right. I asnwered honestly no and he told me I should be. This was a pivotal point for me in my faith as I never believed that anyone should be afraid of the greater beings that are behind all the beauty around us every day. We should rejoice in their bounty, celebrate the honour they give us by allowing us to share in it. I have not looked back with regret on that day when I realized that christianity was NOT for me. Besides, why was their god always a male?

[Hunger]

Explain why bad crap happens. Theodicy tries to.

The Manechian Heresy succeeds.

[Xentor]

Explain why bad crap happens. Theodicy tries to.
Odd. I thought theodicy tries to prove God exists because of bad things happening, not the other way around.


The Manechian Heresy succeeds.
Manichaean? How is a ideology of dualism between good and evil a heresy? And how do you see that as a difference between paganism and christianity? If anything, dualism is something they have in common. Am I missing something?

[daibanjo]

Oh, let's not forget the Christian concept of Original Sin, and all the joy THAT's brought.

Whereas I think most Pagans embrace, shall we say, the idea of Original Grace.


That was also an early christian notion. There was a British Monk around the 5th century named Pelagius, He advocated the notion that we are born without the sin of Adam and that we only sin as a result of our own actions. Instead of the Roman church's doctrine of original sin, he preached "Original Blessings" This Pelagian Heresy was disputed by Augustine because he felt it went against the need for salvation by grace.

But I do take your point, Thyrsos. The notion of original sin has been used as a way of frightening the faithful into submission and as a means of convincing them that all who do not accept that they are sinners, even when they have done nothing wrong, are less worthy than those who worship christ.
One of the modern results of that is that Mahatma Ghandi is going to hell but the guy who blows up a family planning clinic is going to heaven.

[Hunger]

Okay, but I'm invoking the law of negative reversal on the comment concerning theodicy.

As far as the Manachian heresy I'm referring to its influence on early christian mythos, ie the concept that god is both good and evil, one entity with no single polarization.

Edit for clarity, thanks Sidhe:

The influence I was referring to was the embracing of the Heresy by modern Christianity, as one cannot reconcile an 'omniscient and omnipotent' monotheistic deity while claiming omni benevolence, unless you were to use the cop out of the 'All the bad things work out for the greater good' or 'everything will be perfect in paradise' dodges, which are the logical equivalent of the father that rapes his daughter every night because it will help her become a better person, and promises to take her to Disneyland (paradise) in the summer to make up for it.

But to put it all together with the original intent of my post, it was a comment concerning Ladybug 1258, about how no one should fear their deities. If your deity is all-powerful, then it has to be capable of evil. If your pantheon has some sort of evil deity that does bad stuff, well, there is still a god to fear, maybe not the one you worship in specific, but still one to fear.

[sidhe]

Manichaean? How is a ideology of dualism between good and evil a heresy? And how do you see that as a difference between paganism and christianity? If anything, dualism is something they have in common. Am I missing something?

Dualism is actually, technically, heresy in Christianity. According to Genesis 1, YHVH made all things - material and spiritual - and called them all "good." The idea that things become imperfect does not negate that initial "goodness." The Eastern Orthodox uphold this by rejecting original sin, and rather embracing the idea that it is impossible for man not to sin in an imperfect world.

Swinging over to Rome, Augustine and Pelagius having their fit over the whole thing introduced a kind of "acceptable" dualism to the Western Church. The idea of "Original Sin" was more palatable to the Church than "Original Blessing," so it won out...though folks still argue about it.

The Manichaean heresy is, specifically, the idea that Satan (or another entity) is equal and opposite to YHVH...which is cosmological dualism. The idea that YHVH includes all things - good, evil, light, dark - and all things are subject to His will (including Satan) is monism, technically the orthodox position, and is supported by Genesis, Job, and the Psalms.

That said, Christianity has embraced dualism - particularly of the "body bad, spirit good" variety.

[Hunger]

Dualism is actually, technically, heresy in Christianity. According to Genesis 1, YHVH made all things - material and spiritual - and called them all "good." The idea that things become imperfect does not negate that initial "goodness." The Eastern Orthodox uphold this by rejecting original sin, and rather embracing the idea that it is impossible for man not to sin in an imperfect world.

Swinging over to Rome, Augustine and Pelagius having their fit over the whole thing introduced a kind of "acceptable" dualism to the Western Church. The idea of "Original Sin" was more palatable to the Church than "Original Blessing," so it won out...though folks still argue about it.

The Manichaean heresy is, specifically, the idea that Satan (or another entity) is equal and opposite to YHVH...which is cosmological dualism. The idea that YHVH includes all things - good, evil, light, dark - and all things are subject to His will (including Satan) is monism, technically the orthodox position, and is supported by Genesis, Job, and the Psalms.

That said, Christianity has embraced dualism - particularly of the "body bad, spirit good" variety.


What I was getting at in a nutshell, but was unable to express in my insomniac daze.

[TheGrandInquisitor]

Because the Bible says so, and if the Bible says so, it MUST be true!

Don't worry, that was sarcasm. ;)

As a Christian I simply cannot agree with this. Had this been the first thread I read upon my arrival here I would have left immediately.

Tolerance is found in the heart and mind (or not) of us as individuals. If a person is intolerant of differences in one thing in most cases you will find them intolerant of many things. Intolerance can be found in all races, faiths, religions and creeds. Are there not Pagans who are equally as intolerant of Christians as well as Christians who are intolerant of Pagans? Or is this a one way street?

We all will follow as our hearts dictate because we believe that way. There is a large rift between many Christian faiths as there is between many Pagan faiths. Yet we all live together here daily.

In Respect.

[TheGrandInquisitor]

The one steady characteristic that remains obvious as the difference between Christians and Pagans is tolerance.

"the one true god" smacks of snobbery in my opinion. How can anyone be so vain or narrowminded to believe that his god is the "only right" god or the "one true path" toward heaven. Which begs the next question...is there a heaven?

Some maintain that where we are now is hell and it is up to us in our daily living to find our way toward a better place through good deeds, etc. Once done, we're then lead to our reward, heaven.

The bible thumpers annoy me with their "holier than thou" preachiness. I'm no scholar and know nothing by heart from what is said in the bible or what was done in ancient times except other ancient civilizations(Toltec, Aztec, Mayan etc.), so I won't even try to recite verbatim anything that speaks of pagans being right or christians being right. There must be something to the stories that are written. Someone had enough faith and belief in his heart to write what he/she did and had it placed in the bible. Some stories were never included, though, so it's not a complete biblical history. Several were left out, mainly due to the choices made by the Council of Nicea(sp?). So what do we not know because of these omissions? There may have been something truly earth-shaking, faith shattering within those lost tales.

I do not believe Jesus was anything other than a mortal man who had a strong faith in some higher power and was able to convince others of this higher power through his words. He was a great orator, no doubt. This being said, I also feel that he was the typical man of his time and culture, had a wife and perhaps even offspring. There is something magical in having children that nothing else on earth compares to. No where else can anything microscopic become something that influences the earth around us as we know it in less than a year's time.

There is something magical in the growth of the trees, plants, the bloom of a flower, the truth in the fragility as well as strength of the tiny hummingbird, the nobility of such creatures as eagles, whales or bison, the steadfastness of the mountains, oceans and rivers. We are nothing compared to these natural things and they will exist long after we cease to do so.

There is a greater strength in everything, we just don't always acknowledge it as we should or as often as we should. We are a tolerant group who will always have a difficult time agreeing with those who feel they are superior in their faith, but with those very words, they belittle themselves in hopes of greater dominion over others, much like a cult. We can truly rejoice in our pagan life style! Ours is one of joy in fellow man and the world around us is appreciative for our gentle touch.

*gets down off her soap box*

Painting with a very broad brush? Have I offended you in some way?

[Zephyrstorm]

Painting with a very broad brush? Have I offended you in some way?

It is not you who have necessarily offended, TGI. But some of us have been injured by the actions of some Christians, and sometimes that shows in our speech, and in our feelings about Christianity.
There are some very hateful things done in the name of Christianity by people who have the ears of other Christians that seem to have the rubber stamp of approval from some factions of Christianity.

To be fair, those same factions of Christianity have broad-brushed other religions repeatedly, sometimes to the extent of ruining lives. Thankfully, it is rare that it reaches those sorts of extremes.

One of the tragedies of the amount of power and popularity that Christianity has in comparison to the power of other belief systems, I'm afraid, is that there have been times when all have been done a disservice by the likes of Focus on the Family, the 700 Club and others. They make a bad name for Christianity, while simultaneously spreading misinformation that has caused more than one non-Christian sorrow.

But, again, other religions have the same problems. We have members of our community that say things that the rest of us don't agree with, don't believe and wish they wouldn't. I'm not saying that that's how I feel about what Ladybug said, however.

I think, considering some of the troubles that some parts of the Pagan community and other non-Christians have suffered, simply for believing what they do, that a certain amount of angst and anger is, at times, justified. On the other hand, I also believe that sometimes we, on both sides, adopt a persecution complex that is, frankly, often undeserved.

It's a messy situation, but who said that a spiritual life was easy?

[TheGrandInquisitor]

It is not you who have necessarily offended, TGI. But some of us have been injured by the actions of some Christians, and sometimes that shows in our speech, and in our feelings about Christianity.
There are some very hateful things done in the name of Christianity by people who have the ears of other Christians that seem to have the rubber stamp of approval from some factions of Christianity.

To be fair, those same factions of Christianity have broad-brushed other religions repeatedly, sometimes to the extent of ruining lives. Thankfully, it is rare that it reaches those sorts of extremes.

One of the tragedies of the amount of power and popularity that Christianity has in comparison to the power of other belief systems, I'm afraid, is that there have been times when all have been done a disservice by the likes of Focus on the Family, the 700 Club and others. They make a bad name for Christianity, while simultaneously spreading misinformation that has caused more than one non-Christian sorrow.

But, again, other religions have the same problems. We have members of our community that say things that the rest of us don't agree with, don't believe and wish they wouldn't. I'm not saying that that's how I feel about what Ladybug said, however.

I think, considering some of the troubles that some parts of the Pagan community and other non-Christians have suffered, simply for believing what they do, that a certain amount of angst and anger is, at times, justified. On the other hand, I also believe that sometimes we, on both sides, adopt a persecution complex that is, frankly, often undeserved.

It's a messy situation, but who said that a spiritual life was easy?

Yes I suppose this is accurate enough. It does indeed seem to be the nature of mankind to be suspicious of things different from the existence we have created for ourselves.
I actually taught anyone who would listen that being intolerant of intolerance in fact makes them intolerant.

"I'm tolerant as long as no one offends/disagrees with me"
Thanks for your response in this matter.

[Karri Morgan]

Though there are intolerant pagans as well, you dont find many witches or shamans that go door-to door and wave outlets in other peoples faces, saying "You are a sinner, and you are wrong!"

I have always had a grudge towards christianity, not because they believe in their god, but because they expect everyone else to as well.

My best friend was a mormon, and she begged me with her to attend one of their meetings. It was so frustrating, because I wanted to argue, but I just kept my mouth shut. They kept on about how their church was the only church in the entire world that had all the facts! That we other people were going to hell, for not having their faith.

My frustration goes, why cannot people accept that religion is a private matter? You choose what to believe, and I dont get in your way! It is okay to ask, why you believe what you do, but how can anyone say that other peoples faith is fake? They claim that they want to save our souls, but my soul is my own to save! And I am the only one that can determine if it needs saving, as long as I dont break the law, hurt anyone or in any other way act inappropriate towards other human beings.

I dont dare to say that the way I see the world is the absolute truth! They do. There is a big difference between having faith, and thinking that your own faith depend on others thinking the same. Thats probably why I have more respect for the general pagan, because we dont need a church to believe, we dont need anyone to dictate us about what to believe. If in doubt, we ask, we seek guidance and support, but we dont throw ourselves down for a god that wish to rule us. It seems to me, that some religions, like christianity, are not satisfied with their own faith, they need to see it everywhere, in everyone, like if they are insecure or something. Do you really need to push your own religion upon others, if you feel personally secure and trust your own faith?

That is just my unprofessional opinion.

And when speaking of tolerance, how many Wiccans/pagans/Shamans/ similar do you see thrashing gay people in puclic? Or transvestites? And if they do, I have never seen them tie their personal opinions to their faith! For eksample, someone can say, I dont get bisexual people, I dont think they really exists. And that is okay! Their opinions are their own, and they are fully entitled to express them!

But only christian people say; "I dont mind lesbians, as long as they dont have sex with another female. You can have evil thoughts, as long as you dont sin. I like her, so I dont want her to go to hell!" Or the more facist ones; "Homosexuals are evil, and abnormal, and they will burn in hell..."

The pagan variant would probably be, if it had ever happened; "If you like to dress in female clothing, and unpurify yourself, you might end up in the underworld. Oh wait, we all are, but you will end up in a more horrible one.. Or you`ll be reincarnated as a bug."

Lol... So we might not be all tolerant, but at least we dont trash our fellow human beings in public as often :) Nor do we do the mission thing, and recruit people, or claim to be all knowing. Even our books of Shadow are different. Being our "holy book" that says a lot!

[TheGrandInquisitor]

Though there are intolerant pagans as well, you dont find many witches or shamans that go door-to door and wave outlets in other peoples faces, saying "You are a sinner, and you are wrong!"

I have always had a grudge towards christianity, not because they believe in their god, but because they expect everyone else to as well.

My best friend was a mormon, and she begged me with her to attend one of their meetings. It was so frustrating, because I wanted to argue, but I just kept my mouth shut. They kept on about how their church was the only church in the entire world that had all the facts! That we other people were going to hell, for not having their faith.

My frustration goes, why cannot people accept that religion is a private matter? You choose what to believe, and I dont get in your way! It is okay to ask, why you believe what you do, but how can anyone say that other peoples faith is fake? They claim that they want to save our souls, but my soul is my own to save! And I am the only one that can determine if it needs saving, as long as I dont break the law, hurt anyone or in any other way act inappropriate towards other human beings.

I dont dare to say that the way I see the world is the absolute truth! They do. There is a big difference between having faith, and thinking that your own faith depend on others thinking the same. Thats probably why I have more respect for the general pagan, because we dont need a church to believe, we dont need anyone to dictate us about what to believe. If in doubt, we ask, we seek guidance and support, but we dont throw ourselves down for a god that wish to rule us. It seems to me, that some religions, like christianity, are not satisfied with their own faith, they need to see it everywhere, in everyone, like if they are insecure or something. Do you really need to push your own religion upon others, if you feel personally secure and trust your own faith?

That is just my unprofessional opinion.

And when speaking of tolerance, how many Wiccans/pagans/Shamans/ similar do you see thrashing gay people in puclic? Or transvestites? And if they do, I have never seen them tie their personal opinions to their faith! For eksample, someone can say, I dont get bisexual people, I dont think they really exists. And that is okay! Their opinions are their own, and they are fully entitled to express them!

But only christian people say; "I dont mind lesbians, as long as they dont have sex with another female. You can have evil thoughts, as long as you dont sin. I like her, so I dont want her to go to hell!" Or the more facist ones; "Homosexuals are evil, and abnormal, and they will burn in hell..."

The pagan variant would probably be, if it had ever happened; "If you like to dress in female clothing, and unpurify yourself, you might end up in the underworld. Oh wait, we all are, but you will end up in a more horrible one.. Or you`ll be reincarnated as a bug."

Lol... So we might not be all tolerant, but at least we dont trash our fellow human beings in public as often :) Nor do we do the mission thing, and recruit people, or claim to be all knowing. Even our books of Shadow are different. Being our "holy book" that says a lot!

I think you would be surprised at the number of Christians who will actually agree with you. As a Christian it would amaze you how many times I have heard, "Yes I understand you claim to be a Christian but you are doing it wrong and you are going to hell." From what little I've learned here so far the word Christian is nearly as large an umbrella as Pagan. And both are inaccurate in the minute details.
Please be assured the vast majority of us are not Fred Phelps or <insert name of tv preacher>. Most of us are simply trying to do the best we can much like I suspect you are. Like any other group it's not the quiet and content people who get the news coverage is it? That kind of lifestyle just isn't sensational enough to make the news. I wish it was. "In other news today a group of interfaith people got together for an picnic. They cleaned the park and played volleyball and horseshoes and a good time was had by all." Wouldn't that make a great lead line on the evening news? It will not happen. Every day there are thousands of simple acts of kindness and selflessness performed by <pagan; christian; organ grinder with a monkey> that are the fabric of reality. They will remain unheard of except for the few.

As far as going door to door we do believe we need to share (not force) and I have seen many friendships developed doing this. And few converts. Doing this correctly is the key. If someone isn't interested the correct way is to apologize for interrupting and quietly leave. Quite often people will get invited in for a discussion. A discussion, not an invitation to teach. If this is done correctly then a sharing occurs and by sharing each may gain an understanding of each other. The obnoxious rude people who try to force and are unwilling to accept the differences of others make me ill.

May we begin here to share the differences and heal the intolerance on both sides of the path?

[Karri Morgan]

I was speaking generally, but you are very right. As I wrote, my best friend was a mormon, and they can be pretty stubborn about "sharing". We went well together, because she was very private about what she believed in. And I have met many other okay christians. Dont get me wrong, I would never say that the whole lot is like I described. Only that generally, the ones that stand out, and there are quite many that actually do, they can be pushy and demanding and judgemental. As a gay girl, I have tasted that quite intimately.

And the sharing, it sounds nice in theory, but I dont understand why they cannot share it amongst themselves! We do not reqruit pagans, do we? We share too though, we have covens and circles and we hang as friends, and on the net.

What I tried to say was, we are pagans because we made the choice, we had a longing, we had a journey (some of us are still at the beginning), and it is hard work. Some turn christian because some guy in a suit had the right leaflet and the person was going through a rough time. Some push christianity on others, and they never even have to search. I am totally okay with christian people as individuals, it is their spirit of judgement, and of "sharing" that I dont agree with!

[TheGrandInquisitor]

I was speaking generally, but you are very right. As I wrote, my best friend was a mormon, and they can be pretty stubborn about "sharing". We went well together, because she was very private about what she believed in. And I have met many other okay christians. Dont get me wrong, I would never say that the whole lot is like I described. Only that generally, the ones that stand out, and there are quite many that actually do, they can be pushy and demanding and judgemental. As a gay girl, I have tasted that quite intimately.

And the sharing, it sounds nice in theory, but I dont understand why they cannot share it amongst themselves! We do not reqruit pagans, do we? We share too though, we have covens and circles and we hang as friends, and on the net.

What I tried to say was, we are pagans because we made the choice, we had a longing, we had a journey (some of us are still at the beginning), and it is hard work. Some turn christian because some guy in a suit had the right leaflet and the person was going through a rough time. Some push christianity on others, and they never even have to search. I am totally okay with christian people as individuals, it is their spirit of judgement, and of "sharing" that I dont agree with!

I think instead of 'Christian' or 'Pagan' or 'Gay' or any of the other titles or classifications used in daily conversation we start using 'People'. That is where we begin. If I like someone as a person then the color of their skin, what they believe, who they sleep with shouldn't affect that should it? I know far too many who will let things like this interfere and in my opinion it is their loss. Before I worry overmuch about 'fixing' you I need to look first in a mirror and fix me. Once I attain perfection then I will of course become a meglomaniac and completely unbearable to be around. :hehehehe:

[Karri Morgan]

I will await that day with great fear and an overwhelming feeling of doom! Lol...

Just kidding. I agree. People should be people, and what ever oddities they have should be theirs to have, whether fysical appearance or spiritual beliefs.

[David19]

I must not be a neopagan then. I might not consider the same actions sinful as a Christian, but I do consider some actions sinful. Killing someone, for instance, when not as an act of defense, I find sinful and punishable.

QFT, I'm like you, I don't consider sin in the same way as most Christians, Jews, and Muslims, and others, but I do find some things evil, and sinful, IMO, like, your example of killing without any just cause (e.g. a sociopath who only kills for "fun" or just to cause pain, etc), or pediphiles, rapists, racists, homophobes, etc.

[David19]

Generally,

Most modern Christians are what I call "Contract Christians." The crucial point for them is not following the teachings of Christ, (which are for the most part very Pagan), it is pledging allegiance to Christ, much in the same way a Knight would pledge fealty to a feudal Lord or a King. Moral behaviour is considered secondary, since even the most vile sin is forgivable by this contract. In other words, if Hitler accepted Jesus at the last moment, sincerely, he would be in Heaven alongside all the other Christians.

IMHO, most modern Pagans believe in Karma and the evolution of the soul through countless incarnations on Earth. Most Pagans are curious, open to, and often explore paths from different cultures. Witchcraft, Zen Meditation, Hatha Yoga, and Shamanism are often practiced as disciplines together in perfect harmony. A Pagan can see the Divine, and then see the different ways that humans approach it as harmonious.

For the Christian, everyone else's god is their Devil.


For some Christians this is true, maybe even the majority, but not for all..

I agree with LacyRoze, that may be true for some Christian's, but it's definitley not true for all, even most, Christians (and the same applies for Jews, Muslims and others, etc).

Also, while I agree with some of your post, Thyrsos, and it holds true for some Pagans, not all Pagans mix and match traditions, and, for me personally, I don't think anyone should try and practice shamanism, if they haven't been called, it's something that you can't just pick up from a book, you have to, truly, be called by the spirits and/or the Gods, that's why I, can kind of, get annoyed when I see loads of Pagans saying they practice shamanism, or are shamans, when they probably haven't been called by the spirits and/or the Gods, and probably only know about shamans and shamanism, from what they've read in a book(s) and/or sites. There's some Pagan shamans I do respect, and I know they're definitely respectful to the tradition and calling and are real shamans, like Raven Kaldera, a Northern Tradition shaman (http://www.cauldronfarm.com/) and others.

[David19]

Also, any being who demands to be appeased with a human sacrifice would be considered a Demon by most Witches. Christians worship this same being as a God.

Since when is human sacrifice, necessarily, a bad thing, that's something a fundamentalist Christian and Muslim, and maybe Jew, etc might think.

I guess that means the Aztec, Mayan, Incan, Canaanite, Norse (especially Odin), Celtic, Jewish (YHWH, etc), Sumerian (especially Inanna, 'cause, despite what many Pagans think, she was one of the few Sumerian Gods to receive human sacrifice), and many others, etc Gods are all demons too.

If you want to learn more about human sacrifice, from an Aztec perspective, and why it's not "evil", see these very good articles, IMO, from the Aztec Gateway (http://www.amoxtli.org/cuezali/index.html), an Aztec Recon site (I know the owner, and he's very cool and very knowledgable):

http://www.amoxtli.org/cuezali/blood.html
http://www.amoxtli.org/cuezali/nectar.html
http://www.amoxtli.org/cuezali/spaper.html
http://www.amoxtli.org/cuezali/place.html
Aztec Recon FAQ (http://www.amoxtli.org/cuezali/faq.html)

From the FAQ:


I feel drawn to the Aztec deities and would like to worship them. But... they don't really need blood, do they?

I have tried to give politically correct answers to this question, but I simply can't do it anymore. Yes, they require blood. It is not simply that they would appreciate it if you're comfortable with it. They expect it. I have had students who did not give blood willingly, and eventually had it extracted from them through an "accident" that the gods made clear was their doing. I have seen others whom the gods simply lost interest in due to their unwillingness to give them what they feel is deserved.

I have talked elsewhere on this site about the historical practices of sacrifice, and my personal views on it. Here is a new section I have added where I will extrapolate on my experience with the gods and how They seem to react to sacrifice. These are simply my personal experiences, so you may take them or leave them as you will. I will say, however, that of those friends and students I have known who have practiced blood sacrifice to the Aztec gods, none have come back with a contradictory experience.

I actually recommend reading the whole site, as it's really cool, and you'll learn a lot about the Aztec religion and Aztec Gods, and also about human sacrifice, and, while the reasons for human sacrifice, will vary in different areas and for different Gods, I think the articles can be applied to other examples of human sacrifice, to show that it's not an "evil" or "demonic" act.

[TheGrandInquisitor]

Since when is human sacrifice, necessarily, a bad thing, that's something a fundamentalist Christian and Muslim, and maybe Jew, etc might think.

I guess that means the Aztec, Mayan, Incan, Canaanite, Norse (especially Odin), Celtic, Jewish (YHWH, etc), Sumerian (especially Inanna, 'cause, despite what many Pagans think, she was one of the few Sumerian Gods to receive human sacrifice), and many others, etc Gods are all demons too.

If you want to learn more about human sacrifice, from an Aztec perspective, and why it's not "evil", see these very good articles, IMO, from the Aztec Gateway (http://www.amoxtli.org/cuezali/index.html), an Aztec Recon site (I know the owner, and he's very cool and very knowledgable):

http://www.amoxtli.org/cuezali/blood.html
http://www.amoxtli.org/cuezali/nectar.html
http://www.amoxtli.org/cuezali/spaper.html
http://www.amoxtli.org/cuezali/place.html
Aztec Recon FAQ (http://www.amoxtli.org/cuezali/faq.html)

From the FAQ:



I actually recommend reading the whole site, as it's really cool, and you'll learn a lot about the Aztec religion and Aztec Gods, and also about human sacrifice, and, while the reasons for human sacrifice, will vary in different areas and for different Gods, I think the articles can be applied to other examples of human sacrifice, to show that it's not an "evil" or "demonic" act.


Out of sheer morbid curiosity when you refer to human sacrifice are you meaning non lethal bloodletting or actually taking the life of the sacrifice?

[Hunger]

Out of sheer morbid curiosity when you refer to human sacrifice are you meaning non lethal bloodletting or actually taking the life of the sacrifice?

Yes.

[TheGrandInquisitor]

QFT, I'm like you, I don't consider sin in the same way as most Christians, Jews, and Muslims, and others, but I do find some things evil, and sinful, IMO, like, your example of killing without any just cause (e.g. a sociopath who only kills for "fun" or just to cause pain, etc), or pediphiles, rapists, racists, homophobes, etc.

Just asking.

[David19]

Out of sheer morbid curiosity when you refer to human sacrifice are you meaning non lethal bloodletting or actually taking the life of the sacrifice?

From what I know, in the Aztec religion, both were done, self-bloodletting was carried out, as well as human sacrifice. Obvously, modern Aztec Recons don't do human sacrifice now, but they do, do bloodletting of themselves.

Personally, I'd support people who wanted to sacrifice themselves for their God(s), like, let's say you had someone who was dying of cancer, and couldn't be cured, instead of letting them die in pain, if they wanted to sacrifice themselves, and die with dignity, for their God or Gods, religion, whatever, etc, then I'd be for it.

[TheGrandInquisitor]

From what I know, in the Aztec religion, both were done, self-bloodletting was carried out, as well as human sacrifice. Obvously, modern Aztec Recons don't do human sacrifice now, but they do, do bloodletting of themselves.

Personally, I'd support people who wanted to sacrifice themselves for their God(s), like, let's say you had someone who was dying of cancer, and couldn't be cured, instead of letting them die in pain, if they wanted to sacrifice themselves, and die with dignity, for their God or Gods, religion, whatever, etc, then I'd be for it.


To each their own I suppose.

That said I would have to point out that something like sacrificing yourself to any deity would be fanatical and cause me to wonder if the mental stability of such a person shouldn't be looked into.

My God asks that I live for him, not die for Him, and I try to do this within the human weakness I find myself cloaked in. No I am not saying I am right and you are wrong, just putting forth a differing view.

[Lilrodrigues]

To each their own I suppose.

That said I would have to point out that something like sacrificing yourself to any deity would be fanatical and cause me to wonder if the mental stability of such a person shouldn't be looked into.

My God asks that I live for him, not die for Him, and I try to do this within the human weakness I find myself cloaked in. No I am not saying I am right and you are wrong, just putting forth a differing view.

Another different view is that no god asks for nothing, we merely give what we find proper to, and some find their life proper to give.