The Missing Zodiac . . .

[Magnus]

I've been stirring up trouble on another forum and thought I'd stir the cauldron here as well. Here is my original post with some editing:

In the Wiccan tradition, we follow the 'movement' of the moon for our Esbats and Sabbats. In other words . . . we follow a lunar calendar of 13 months made up of 28 days each. When the Gregorian calendar was put into use during the 16th century, they took the 13 month lunar calendar and crammed it into 12 months each consisting of various numbers of days and an extra day for Leap Year every four years. This far we know. But . . . doesn't the Gregorian calendar, by its very nature, call for an imbalance in our connection with true time? I have read that that the universe sends out a steady pulse that every cell in our body is attuned too. Should not this be reflected in our calendar to maintain a true balance with the universe? If so . . . it would seem to me that the monthly fullmoon rituals are key to restoring this balance and all that much more important to be observed.

The Main Question:

Is anyone aware of a 13th Zodiac symbol that was in use by any culture prior to the Gregorian calender that would have coinsided with the lunar calendar? And, ,if so, how does it effect Astrology as we know it today and what effect does it have on our lives.

Magnus

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Here is information that I've found relating to the subject since my posting:

Here are some more comments from various websites as well as the links. From what I've read, there is very strong evidence that we should be using a 13 Zodiac table.


Although this constellation is not part of the [current] zodiac the sun passes through Ophiuchus in December each year. When the zodiac first was invented by the Babylonians 3000 years ago, the sun just passed through the twelve constellations to which we still refer as the zodiac. Due to the precession of the Earth the apparent way of the sun through the sky has changed through the milleniums.

Mythological Background:

There are several stories who Ophiuchus is thought to represent:
He might be King Karnabon of Seythia. Ceres gave order to Triptolemus to teach humanity in how to grow grain. King Karnabon showed friendly hospitality when Triptolemus came to him, but after a short while he changed his attitude completely and tried to kill Triptolemus. To prevent his flight Karnabon killed the dragon which pulled the wagon of T. Yet Ceres sent immediately another dragon and let Karnabon kill himself. To keep the memory of his cruelity alive she placed him next to the dragon on the sky (Hyginus, Astron. lib.II.c.14)
On the other hand there is a story that Ophiuchus is Hercules, slaing a giant snake near the river Sagaris in Lybia. He is also thought to be Triopas, who destroyed a temple of Ceres. He was punished with hunger and finally with even that snake (or dragon) clinching him permanently (Ap. Hyginus, Poeticon Astronomicum l.II.14).
Some see him for Phorbas who had slain that very dragon on the island Rhodos (Polyzelos Rhodius ap. eumd.l.c.)
Another story gives him as Aeskulapius, healing and revitalising Glaukus, son of Minos, after he was bitten by a snake (Hyginus l.c.Cf. Erastothenes Catasterismi 6).


http://www.seds.org/Maps/Stars_en/Fig/ophiuchus.html

This is one of the 13 constellations of the Zodiac.

Note: This site details the constellation.
http://www.astro.wisc.edu/~dolan/constellations/constellations/Ophiuchus.html

This redrawing of the boundaries added a constellation to the zodiac. According to the official modern constellation boundaries that all astronomers use, the sun passes through 13 constellations, not 12. The "thirteenth constellation" of the zodiac is Ophiuchus the Serpent Bearer, and the sun is in front of its stars during the first half of December. About one person in twenty is an "Ophiuchus," but few of them know it.

http://www.griffithobs.org/SkyOphiuchus.html

The Thirteenth Sign of the Zodiac:
When the zodiac was first delineated by the ancients, it consisted of twelve 'houses', each associated with one of twelve constellations that lay along the Ecliptic: Aries, Taurus, Gemini, Cancer, and so on. Since that time, gravitational effects on the orbit of the Earth, known as 'precession', have caused the line of the Ecliptic to change slightly. Specifically, it now passes through thirteen constellations, with Ophiuchus being the new addition. Where the Sun once passed directly from Scorpius into Sagittarius, it now spends nineteen days each year, from 30 November to 18 December, in the new 'house' of the Serpent Holder.

http://www.glyphweb.com/esky/default.htm?http://www.glyphweb.com/esky/conste.../ophiuchus.html

One more Link:
http://www.startistics.com/ophiuchus/index.html

[Methanespirit]

The 13th zodiacal sign is an old controversy. It was brought up 30 years ago amid the pages of American Astrology magazine. There are only 12 zodiacal signs. This accounts for the natural division of the zodiac into 12ths. and 360ths and further divided into 60ths from that. The natural zodiac is not referenced with artificial constellation boundries, but rather from the Solar Apex. Also, that the stars forming the zodiacal constellations are in a close proximity to, or within their actual natural division. The only bright star that is on a boundary with 2 Zodiacal constlellations and is also on the ecliptic is Spica at 29* 59' 48" Sidereal Virgo. In ancient times the sun's crossing of this star was considered as a New Year because it not only marked the Libra Solar ingress, but any world events that occured subsequent to this wthin 30 days often had lasting effects, (the 1929 stock market crash for example) also that the ancient Israelis, reckoned this ingress as the beginning of the secular new year, do doubt, taken from ancient Egypt. The religious new year began with the first new moon after the Sun's crossing the solar-Spring equinox about 6 months earlier.

The original calendars were lunar ones for all ancient societies. But since the Moon does not keep pace with Solar motion at least in a simple divisible way, that the Solar calendar won out, and since the Solar diety in ancient Rome was more chronologically predictive than the Lunar one, the calendars of the "modern era" are Solar in nature. Any one who uses a Lunar calendar will of necessity have to correct the calendar every 3 years because the moon gains a third of a day every year when being referenced with Solar motion. (365.2564 solar earth days / 27.32166 sidereal lunar days = 13.368....)

The ancient Sabbath was of Lunar referencing as denoted in the Bible under the Law. That a new month began on the day of a new moon and the subsequent Sabbaths occured on every quarter phase of the moon. This type of reckoning was popular throughout all the ancient world. This is also a valid argument against the Sabbaterians when attempting to force their religious ideas on others. As most of you know that their Sabbaths are a simple continuum of 7 solar-referenced days beginning from who knows when!

methanespirit (CH4)

[Phoenix Blue]

When I was building my Sun Signs page for my Hunter's Book website, I did some research into this. :) I like to present the science, astronomy, alongside the art, astrology. I happened across a page called Real Constellations (http://www.griffithobs.org/IPSRealConst.html), which describes precisely what constellation the sun occupies, and when. Note that the sun spends about five days in Scorpius and about three weeks in Ophiucus. The dates are skewed from traditional astrology due to precession in the earth's axis over the past 2000 years.

:) Also, this site points out that the astronomical constellation names for "Scorpio" and "Capricorn" are Scorpius and Capricornus.

[Methanespirit]

the procession of the equinoxes is a phenomena that seriously changes the position of the signs within the zodiac, when using a false zodiac. That because the 12 signs are referenced to the Solar Apex, there is no shifting of the signs when using this most ancient of fiducials. However, today the modern Tropical zodiac is referenced to the changing equinox position, otherwise known as Right Ascention. When anyone seriosuly studies personalities using the old-correct zodiac, or begins studies in the most ancient forms of predicitive Astrology, the Mundane systems of this science, it will be plainly seen that the modern zodiac is more than an errror, in fact, it is almost 25 degrees out of sync with the original Sidereal system.

.......methanespirit (CH4)

[Kadynas]

Methane's definitely right about that... She did a sidereal chart for me and all my planets and houses were about a sign away from what the Tropical Zodiac places them as... It's quite interesting really. Though my Tropical chart describes me to a "T", the Sidereal one also fits me in different ways. That and there seems to be a wider range of aspects and "connections" to be made in Sidereal astrology...things I never ever heard of til Methane. :D The only sad thing is that Tropical seems to be the accepted "only" method right now, and so there's almost no books around to learn about sidereal, which would be great for bookworms like me...
Ever think of taking up the pen Methane? :)

[Methanespirit]

kadynas, yes I have often thought of writing but due to interest being minimal and the volume of work needed to write a complete insturction manual from memory, would take much time. I would prefer to teach Sidereal Astrology over the net, rather than write a book that would end up costing me to publish.


The problem with the Sidereal systme is that it transcends the "notion-forms" of Astrology, and makes it a true science with true guidelines and definite rules and regulations with definitive delineations. As one, in order to become an adept of the science, would have to become capable at, from their own initiative, a draftman, fundamenal astronomy, historian, basic mathmatician, and any other study that would aid in the research of Sidereal Astrology. If any are interested in me beginning a class in Sidereal Astrology on Mystic Wics , please let me know, and I will come up with a simple study plan.

...........methanespirit (CH4)

[Kadynas]

Definitely sounds good to me! :D One question that occured to me this week... In Sidereal Astrology, my Moon is in Leo (as opposed to Virgo in the Tropical). Now for delianation purposes, would the Tropical defintions still apply for Sidereal placements? Or does Sidereal have its own versions of things like that? I was just looking over my Sidereal Chart and wondering...
Also I went to Astro.com...you can make it do Sidereal charts, but there's 4 different choices and I'm not sure of the right one. One gave me a sign position for the Earth instead of the Sun! :lol: Guess I should've listed to the disclaimer "change this only if you are an expert"! I look forward to whatever you'll willing to teach, Methane. :)

[Methanespirit]

Kadynas, well to be honest with you, most Tropical delineations are a mixture of honest personality observations, and some traditional rhetoric. Thus it is difficult to weed out the Leo personality traits from that of Virgo. What I did many years ago, was to purchase a birthday book and copy many of the Moon Leo people and see what they had in common. One of the first people to come to mind was Lawerence Welk, with his lavish displays of decorative finery, "flashy orchestra" high society dancing and entertainment, and almost a personality that needed to be coaxed to make oneself more personable. The moon does not find in the Leo personality that causes it to be "at home". That there is a paradox, with this position because the Leo lavishness, is not expressive with the shy sensitive, emotional Moon. Also, that Cyril Fagan, one of the re-discoverers of the ancient Sidereal Zodiac had the Moon in Leo (d. 1972). He was internationaly noted for his writings and research, but not his influence by person. This should point you in the right direction to find an accurate delineation

It is good to remember that any planet or luminary that occupies an adjacent sign to its place of rulership is not "highly accented" because of conflicting personality traits.

As far as doing charts in the Sidereal Zodiac, personally I would't rely on what the Tropicalists give you. Take your ephemeris, and get the SVP and apply it to the tropical positions, then you will know that you have it correct.

If you do not have some of these tables, like the SVP ephemeris, you can e-mail me through this site, and I will be very happy to send you a copy of it.

I hope this help a little.

................methane

[Gwion]

I have heard that Leo and Virgo were once one sign called the Sphinx. Anyone else heard of that?

[Methanespirit]

"Sphynx" is a new one on me, since I have never heard of it. However, I might add here, that the real sphynx of Egypt, is a combination of the Leo and Virgo glyphs. That the division between these two constellations was pointed out because it is a testimony in the heavens about the God of creation. Each zodiacal sign and corresponding constellation contributes another facet about Him and His working with mankind in the world.

...................methane

[Litha]

hmmm the Sphinx is more than 2 signs from one.
The World card in Tarot shows the separation of the elements that combine in all to Sphinx: Earth-Taurus, Air-Aquarius, Fire-Leo, Water-Scorpio.

[Methanespirit]

I heard on the radio this morning on the "Stardate" program. said that the zodiac contains a portion of Ophiuchus (the serpent bearer). This is misleading. That they also stated; "astronomer's drew boundries in the heavens". This is so typical of the intellectual community, in that they disregard the possibility of 12 natural zodiacal divisions. Ever since man has been on the earth, that this most ancient science of Sidereal Astrology has been practiced by all early societies. But somehow, they refuse to recognize any association with Solar and Lunar positions and how they affect people. weather, and world events. I remember ascending to Kitt Peak national observatory in Tucson, Ariz. On top of the mounatain there is a petroglyph made by some Native Americans. There was a notice next to it that stated in effect, that since that astronomers' didn't know what it meant, that apparently it doesn't mean anything. Need more be said?

.........methane

[wickedlizard]

sorry to bring this one up again. but it was interesting and i would like to know if there is a site that would do my natal chart with the 13th constellation in it???