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sidhe
June 1st, 2008, 06:02 PM
93 all,

A Rosicrucian friend of mine was giving me info on some start-up lodges and orders in the U.S., as his group hosts a Western Mysteries convention in Austin every fall, and one absolutely intrigues me.

The Open Source Order of the Golden Dawn. (http://www.osogd.org/)

It's a G.'.D.'. based order, acknowledging the new Aeon proclaimed by Thelema and supporting the promulgation of the Law, that emphasizes not having any secret materials.

They do require physical presence for initiations, but all their material, as it is compiled, is made Open Source.

A similar thing would be the Thelemic Golden Dawn, which - while not calling itself "Open Source" - does not seem to have any secret materials that are only available to initiates.

Good idea? Bad idea? Worst...idea...ever?

I think it's a pretty good idea, myself. It would allow an individual with self-discipline to apply themselves to their system, even if they were not able to become a formal initiate. The more people who take the time to participate in the Work, the better off we'll all be. By dropping the mysteries and such, it makes it accessible.

On the downside, it means people will try to style themselves as Sooper Awzum Majikians without ever doing a lick of Work, since they'll be able to reference advanced teachings without actually taking the time to achieve to that level of understanding.

I'm of the opinion, however, that making things accessible is more important than preserving people from acting like morons. A person who wants to style themselves that way will find a way to do so, regardless of the existence of an Open Source order. It may encourage those who want to do the Work seriously - but either don't have the resources or the proximity to a Lodge to join - to pursue self-discipline and their own craft.

Anyone else have input?

93 93/93
sidhe

Fr.Vega Morn
June 4th, 2008, 05:21 PM
93,

You hit the nail on the head. I don't think there's anything much I can add to what you said.

The bottom line (IMHO) is that for every single genuine, disciplined and dedicated practitioner, there's thousands of, slackers, fakers, bulls******s etc.

Ignore them, do as you will and remember that 'success is your proof'.

It sounds from your post that you've already decided to access the open source material. Do it. If it works out, great, if not, then move on. No harm no foul.


93/93

Fr VM.

PS. As I understand it, the T.G.D. is now defunct though the former Heirophant is continuing to operate a somewhat revised, but still open source order under the aegis 'Sanctuary Of Thoth'.

sidhe
June 5th, 2008, 06:41 AM
93,

I've been working open source material since before it was hip. ;) Early editions of A.'.A.'. teachings that have been published, T.'.G.'.D.'. (I had no idea it had gone defunct...and here I was getting ready to submit all the mess of work I'd done using their system), published bits of the original G.'.D.'....if it's out there, I've tried to hunt it down. :)

What intrigues me about the OSOGD is that it's an organized order, with central authority and physical meetings (which is a bit more than the T.'.G.'.D.'. had), which has chosen to make everything they do open source...including (if I'm reading it correctly) adeptus exempt papers and such. This could be a fantastic resource if it gets going correctly.

Currently I'm considering taking the plunge into an actual order, but my options are limited where I'm currently living. Were I in California, the OSOGD would be up near the top of places I'd go to talk to the folks.

93 93/93
sidhe

Fr.Vega Morn
June 5th, 2008, 02:23 PM
93,

I liked TGD because it didn't have central authority and physical meetings!

I have browsed through the OSOGD site a few times and it seems like they've got some interesting stuff going on.

I think open source is a great idea. Especially since so much 'secret' information has been released into the public domain. As you've discovered for yourself, if you look hard & long enough, you can find pretty much anything when it comes to occultism. (Of course, it's been said that a true secret can't be profaned anyway.)

A qabbalist buddy of mine and I were sat around talking about, magick, the AA, Crowley etc etc. Then he said something like "Yeah...but at the end of the day it's only information." I liked that a lot. Information is great, but without application and experience, it's not worth a crap.

The publishing or not publishing grade materials put me in mind of a martial art master I was reading about. He told a story along the lines about how his teacher trained under his master for years and years and did not receive anything until the very day his master died. He basically showed up, gave him a pile of books, scrolls & licenses and then expired.

Conversely, his own experience was that in the first few times training with his teacher, he was given a 'masters license' even though he hadn't learned or achieved all the techniques he needed. The notion was that one day he would, so it was ok to have the paperwork in advance.

It might seem contradictory, but the essence is: that if someone does the work and then has their attainment noted by their peers, it's the same as getting the notation and then studying very hard to live up to the expectation. The contradiction is resolved by the amount of work a person puts in.

I can't remember where I saw the quote, but I've always been fond of:

"Magicians don't need magical Orders, but Orders need real magicians." (or thereabouts).

Of course, it's great to have people to discuss with and get advice etc. Personally, I try to strike a balance between having good sources/contacts when I want and then spend the rest of the time left alone to do my own thing. Guess I'm not much of a joiner.

93/93

FrVM

PS Former TGD is now: http://sanctuaryofthoth.com/

sidhe
June 9th, 2008, 11:51 AM
93s,

The Sanctuary of Thoth looks promising. I wish more orders would come around to not requiring physical presence for initiation, but that's me. :)

Yeah, I like to say that the secrecy of orders has more holes than the Iraqi navy. Even then, you have to remember that a lot people can't make sense of basic instruction, so higher secrets are pretty well safe.

93 93/93
sidhe

Fr.Vega Morn
June 9th, 2008, 01:48 PM
93s,

I've long thought that 'all true initiation is self-initation' anyway. Presence at a physical ceremony might be beneficial for some people but, I think that to be successful, a number of factors come into play. Principally, that the candidate is suitable and well prepared and his/her initiators know what they're doing and can reasonably demonstrate they they've achieved the appriopriate level of initiation themselves.

Physical initiations can be great, but only if the candidate recognizes that the ceremony is just a seed that needs ongoing cultivation. Otherwise, everyone whose been through a rite of initiation (masonic, magical, wiccan, whatever) would automatically display the traits of that level of consciousness and IMHO, that just ain't happening.

As for simple instructions, I think you're right. Until more people realize that mastery is about doing the simple things, really really well, then 'teh s3cre7z1!' are safe for a good long time to come.


93 93/93

FrVM

sidhe
June 9th, 2008, 02:23 PM
93,

Yeah, physical initiation is wonderful...but you're still initiating yourself. If you haven't gone through the internal changes necessary, caused by the work you've done yourself, it does no good to have the most brilliant initiator ever.

On the subject of secrets, a clever O.T.O. member once told me that every secret in the O.T.O. is in the Gnostic Mass, and anyone with enough dedication could figure everything out based on reading a bit of the Equinox, the foundational rituals, Liber AL, and studying the Mass...but that without knowing the meanings of the basics, the Mass would never ever make sense. And it's true...the more you learn, the more meaning is present in the Mass.

93 93/93
sidhe

Fr.Vega Morn
June 10th, 2008, 03:36 PM
93,

Yeah, physical initiation is wonderful...but you're still initiating yourself. If you haven't gone through the internal changes necessary, caused by the work you've done yourself, it does no good to have the most brilliant initiator ever.

On the subject of secrets, a clever O.T.O. member once told me that every secret in the O.T.O. is in the Gnostic Mass, and anyone with enough dedication could figure everything out based on reading a bit of the Equinox, the foundational rituals, Liber AL, and studying the Mass...but that without knowing the meanings of the basics, the Mass would never ever make sense. And it's true...the more you learn, the more meaning is present in the Mass.

93 93/93
sidhe

93,

Good point. Didn't Crowley actually say as much in Magick? Something along the lines of how there was a 'big SECRET' but that it was revealed somewhere among the published writings of Fr Perduabo for anyone who could be bothered to look for it?

93 93/93

FrVM

sidhe
June 10th, 2008, 04:13 PM
93,

If Crowley said it (which he did) that's almost enough to make me question its truth. ;)

I'm always amazed at the amount of stuff that becomes blaringly obvious in AC's writings the more you read and cross-reference. Lots of fancy language to say very obvious truths.

93 93/93,
sidhe

Fr.Vega Morn
June 12th, 2008, 04:54 PM
93,

If Crowley said it (which he did) that's almost enough to make me question its truth. ;)

I'm always amazed at the amount of stuff that becomes blaringly obvious in AC's writings the more you read and cross-reference. Lots of fancy language to say very obvious truths.

93 93/93,
sidhe

93,

Crowley, what rascal..lol...

I think my favorite part about Magick, is that he makes this huge overture early on about how this book is THE BOOK that will explain it ALL to absolutely ANYONE, no matter who they are....and then fills page after page with obscure references, jokes, OTO secrets etc. If he genuinely cared about writing a comprehensive, accessible book on magic, then it's a most masterful & brilliant failure.

Liber ABA just might be the occult's answer to 'Ulysses' by James Joyce. An amazingly written, dense, complex work of art....with an almost complete lack of plot. :thumbsup:

93 93/93

FrVM

sidhe
June 13th, 2008, 06:42 AM
93,

I call Crowley Humor on Liber ABA. He was right, it does say everything, and anyone could figure it out, but that doesn't mean its obvious. ;) On the other hand, I like James Joyce too. Must just be a common thread of loving obfuscation.

Ever read The Booklet of the Law (http://www.luckymojo.com/avidyana/gnostik/librette.tn.txt)? Liber AL, minus all the stuff that was probably Crowley making bad jokes that only he found really funny. I love it.

93 93/93
sidhe

Fr.Vega Morn
June 13th, 2008, 03:04 PM
93,

Thanks for the link. I had not seen the 'Booklet Of The Law' before. It'll be fun to play 'compare & contrast' with that later.

I'm pretty sure people will get pissy about it though. Hell, I've seen some Thelemites on forums be actively hostile because other posters used '93s' instead of the full thelemic greeting!

My dig at Crowley & Joyce was goodnatured however - I'm a fan of both even though clarity & simplicity were not their strongest points.

(And if Crowley is the James Joyce of the occult, I wonder where that leaves other authors?)

93 93/93

FrVM

sidhe
June 13th, 2008, 03:34 PM
93,

Joyce and Crowley are the only authors where, if I don't get it, I assume it's a failing on my part rather than theirs. I'm just not thinking on the right level yet. I think the first chapter of The Book of Lies demonstrates that Crowley was the Joyce of the occult.


?

!

Strange, but meaningful.

I've taken DuQuette's advice on talking with Qabalists to heart in regards to discussing Thelema. Only discuss with people who know less than you or already agree with you. Or, better yet, don't talk to other Thelemites at all. One list I'm on people get enraged if someone calls themself a Thelemite, insisting that it can only be used by another person to refer to you, not as a point of self-reference. Oh, and that a True Thelemite(TM) would clearly display trait X. Kinda misses the point that "Every man and woman is a star," and thus will display whatever traits are true to their nature, IMHO.

Have fun with the Booklet. It actually reads like inspired poetry. I've shown it to people who don't like Liber AL, and after reading it they see what the appeal is.

93 93/93,
sidhe

Fr.Vega Morn
June 13th, 2008, 05:45 PM
93,

Lon Duquette is great. I've always loved his advice 'you're always someone else's idea of a chicken Qabalist' comment.

True Thelemites(tm) are a bore....unless you like getting your kicks from provoking people on the internet...lol...In which case, it's a very easy & cheap form of entertainment. Many have taken 'as brothers fight ye' as a commandment to spend all their time bitching about each other on message boards.

Hey, so we managed to keep a thread going for 2 pages without becoming a 'centre of pestilence'. I think that's a record! (argument over the merits of Kenneth Grant and the 'true succession of the OTO' begins in...5...4....3...2..1....)

93 93/93

FrVM

PS Book Of Lies is wonderful. Evidence that Crowley could actually be thought provoking without being verbose.

GEBS
June 13th, 2008, 06:08 PM
I've taken DuQuette's advice on talking with Qabalists to heart in regards to discussing Thelema. Only discuss with people who know less than you or already agree with you. Or, better yet, don't talk to other Thelemites at all.


Best advice ever.

While I enjoy reading conversation between Thelemites I rarely interject. I have found that I learn more from watching then than if I were to take part in the conversation.

Have either of you read DuQuette's Enochian Vision Magick? I'm working on it now. I would love to have an opinion on the book from someone that has finished it. I'm enjoying it so far but I'm less than half way through it.

sidhe
June 14th, 2008, 07:58 AM
93,

"As brothers fight ye" clearly means to flame EVERYONE in internet discussions, most especially people who dare to agree with you, as you're a lone magickal traveller with no time for sycophants. ;) I think if we make it to page 3 without this devolving into an argument over proper succession in the OTO we'll have passed the Event Horizon, and can then proceed safely. So no one mention Motta...ACK! TOO LATE!

I love watching discussions between other Thelemites, but I'd rather not stick my nose in. I learn a great deal from them, though...sometimes not so much from their content, but their attitude. There's a fair number who have forgotten that a king can choose their garment as they wish, and are quite insistent on declaring their kingship.

I haven't read DuQuette's Enochian stuff yet. Anyone who goes to my Amazon "wish list" will see a list of DuQuette and Newcomb, though. Enochian magick is high on the list of things I should learn more about, but just can't bring myself to study.

93 93/93,
sidhe

Fr.Vega Morn
June 14th, 2008, 08:33 PM
93,

Motta? You just had to go there, didn't you? Well, that's it....flounce time!

Seriously though, the easiest way to get out of the problem of talking to Thelemites (other than not doing so) is to deem oneself to be a 'borderline thelemite'. I discussed this with Lon Duquette a few years back, he seemed to think it was a good idea :)

When it comes to thelemic discussions, I generally keep to myself and don't get involved. I skim various boards, but never sign up or post. I like it better that way. I died inside a little when I saw someone reply to a post about thelemic morality - his response was, in all seriousness, 'what would Crowley do?'. If a person is basing their life choices on whether AC would do it or not, then I'm taking my ball and going elsewhere.

[Incidentally, the answer to the question of 'what would Crowley do?' is to have an expensive meal, drink plenty of cognac, masturbate furiously and then complain about how tired he was the next day in his diary. Admitedly, that might make for a great Saturday night, but it's generally not helping me in other areas of my life....]

As for 'Enochian Vision Magick', I got it a few weeks ago and ploughed through it in one day because I'm a nerd like that.

Probably worthy of a new thread. I'll get one started and then later on post my thoughts/comments.

93 93/93

FrVM

PS - If not already apparent, then I will state for the record that I love AC and his works, but not so much that I won't rip on him. Too many self professed Thelemites seem to be lacking in critical faculties and objectivity and are scared to call shennanigans on the old beast.

sidhe
June 14th, 2008, 09:07 PM
93,

A hearty willingness to rip into AC should go along with reading him. Anyone who says WWCD? as a moral barometer is a Crowleyite, not a Thelemite, and makes me sad a little bit.

(My bit of Crowley-rippery stems from his odd "THREESOMES ARE BAD!" chapter in Liber Aleph. I just have this vision of 40-something AC, rolling frustratedly out of bed after his lady-friends find each other more interesting (possibly due to Uncle Al having "performance issues" brought on by drinking and drugs), stomping over to his typewriter, and proceeding to complain about how threesomes are a horrible, horrible idea, etc., basically pouting that he got left out of the fun, unaware that someone might take this to be absolute infallible doctrine)

Meeting LMD is on my 5-year-plan. I agree that reading boards and discussions can be far more edifying than participating in them, unless you're talking to someone you know pretty well already.

I'll go farther than Motta...I'll mention the T.O.T.O. :)

93 93/93
sidhe

Fr.Vega Morn
June 15th, 2008, 03:45 PM
93,

By TOTO, I assume you're referring to the band? ; )

I haven't read Liber Aleph in a long time. It's not one of my faves to be honest. I'll have to dig that out and read the passage you mentioned.

Definitely attend Lon's workshops asap. You'll be very glad you did.


93 93/93

FrVM