Sad

[Crystal Clear]

I'm unhappy about how the US is so christian/Catholic oriented. For instance, the pledge you have to say God in my school and if the teachers catch you not doing so, you'll get in trouble, plus only Christian and Catholic holidays are celebrated and we get those days off. And I go to a public school! I read in my handout this:

Statement of Non-Discrimination
"The (Blank) school district hereby gives notice that it does not discriminate on the basis of race,color, national origin, sex, and disablity in the educational programs and activities operated by the district".

What about religion? Few students read the handout so they don't know our school would discriminate religions because they assume they wouldnt. And if you sued them because they did they'd probably say, "Her religious choices are disrupting the classrooms" which is a big thing to them because then you'd be denying kids their education.

If schools would stop being so religiously intolerant then they'd realize what their doing is wrong. Little kids are told to make Christmas things, even though it's a public school. I DON'T CELEBRATE CHRISTMAS! I celebrate Yule whose founders also came up with the decorating of trees! And the only Pagan holiday they even recognize is Halloween but I've never been let out of school because of it. This is one of the reasons I was talking about a Pagan school before because my holidays aren't recognized. I'm so mad and angry how the church controls so much that they're not supposed to!

[Danustouch]

I can see how frustrating it would be, for you to feel so not understood by the school. However, try to keep in mind. Like it or not, Paganism is still a "minority" religion. Most people DONT know very much about it. Therefore, MOST people don't even get a chance to even form an opinion on it. I would guess that most of the teachers, officials, and even the students in your school are not purposely trying to make you feel left out. I would guess that most of that is done in ignorance.

For instance, when you say they celebrate Christmas in your school, what exactly do you mean? Do they have a nativity present? Do they do a play with the three wise men, and the little baby jesus? Or do they display a Christmas tree (which, by the way, was originally a Pagan symbol. So...Christmas tree's never bothered me) and Snowmen, and Snowflakes, and Santa Clause (who, incidentally, some people believe ALSO has pagan roots). Do they also aknowledge Hanukkah? Kwanzaii?? If they do recognize these other religions, and try to stay away from specifically promoting CHRISTIAN values, then my guess is, they are not purposely trying to violate your rights. They simply don't Know much about Yule, or about Pagans. Have they ever told you not to talk about your religion? Have they told you WHICH God you must pledge allegiance to, when you say "One nation, under God?". Have they deliberately persecuted you?

My point is, in most situations, it's a matter of looking at the glass as half full, or half empty. If they were telling you not to wear your pentacle, not to speak of your religion, that you had to take part in a very Christian themed play, or HAD to attend chapel, or whatever, then, in my opinion, you'd have a legitimite complaint.

If it's just a matter of feeling that you're specific beliefs and values aren't included in the every day occurances at school, well, then I'd say, maybe you should do something about it? When you're in art class, maybe you could make one of your projects, a Yule log for the holiday season. And write up a description about what a Yule Log means to you. When you say the pledge of Allegiance, why not substitute "Goddess" for God? or just say Under "Gods". In short, Separation of Church and state ensures that your religious beliefs may NOT be impinged, even by your school. But...if you are laying down to it, and not trying to excercise your rights, then you can't quite complain when you feel they are infringed upon.

As I said, Paganism is still a minority religion. The Pledge of Allegiance was written by men who believed in a certain God, or in a general concept of God. It's up to YOU how you view that pledge, and which God you think of when the pledge is said. Christmas, and Hannukah, are still the MOST common holidays in the Holiday season. But ya know what? Most Christian symbols have roots in Paganism. Take pride in that, instead of feeling angry about it. Unless they are telling you you are wrong for not celebrating Christmas, unless they are telling you you have to Go to Church on Christmas, Unless they are telling you all sorts of religious stories, reading out of the bible, and claiming it is the only source of truth, well...try not to let it bother you too much. They are excercising their rights, just as you have the right, to excercise yours.

The "Church" only controls what it CAN control. Since the majority of people in the world WANT to believe in the teachings of the Church, it's easy for their influence to be felt in major institutions, such as schools, hospitals, and other places. They believe in what THEY believe in. It shouldn't bother you, unless they are telling YOU what you can and cannot believe in. Then, it becomes a problem.

[Witchy Cowgirl]

WELL SAID

[earthcat]

Ironic to think that the very calendar that governs our daily lives is based on the Birth of Jesus Christ, is it not???

Crystal Clear, you're in a tough situation there; one that may be difficult to overcome. If you feel a person in authority may be sympathetic to your plight, (or at the very least, willing to uphold our Constitutional Rights), such as a counselor or teacher, talk to them about it. If you can get one person behind you, it may help resolve your situation. Do it gently; tell them you respect other's rights in their beliefs, and suggest perhaps that as others rise to state their Pledge, you will also rise, bow your head and wait quietly. (Or do as Danustouch says; and alter the pledge to your beliefs.) If you put it to them with respect and maturity, it should help your cause. I keep repeating the word 'respect'; that may be the key to this. One of the things I abhor about Christanity is their complete intolerance and disrespect of other people's beliefs. But personally, I strongly feel that if any person gets peace of mind out of their beliefs, then I fully support them. (with a few notable exceptions; i.e. religions/people that encourage or tolerate harm to others.) That is tolerance and respect on my part towards them. And your showing (and feeling) these things will help help you to Walk your Path in the society we live in.

Danustouch has made wise statements. Pagans are a minority; the general beliefs other have towards us are foggy; to say the least. They believe what they are told about us, or what they see on tv. Very few actually know what we are about; and unfortunately some organized religions regard us as evil.
Certain parts of the country are more zealous in these beliefs than others; if you're in the 'Bible belt'; it may extremely difficult to make your cause. You can take it to the Courts; however in some parts of the country, you may be bringing trouble down on your entire family. The decision you make to pursue this should be discussed with the your loved ones. With their backing, you can take it all the way.

What ever you decide to do, remember that there are others struggling against these very things. And we accept you just as you are, and support you in what you do. :)

[Grey]

Look I'm sorry but the pledge is an american tradition and if you cant say it then your not an american.

YOUR NOT PLEDGING ALLEGANCE TO CHRISTIANITY BUT TO AMERICA!!

If you feel that this is "opressive" thatn say one nation under "gods" or "the goddess" OK??

now I dont like pigheaded christians ether but this isnt a religious matter its about loyalty to the country and you should be proud to say it not complaining because it dosent line up with you.

When you chose to follow your current religious path you decided to go against the norm. You can not expect time honored traditions to change because of us.

So what if you dont celebrate christmas?? you want people to have a better knowledge of pagans? First you have to accept people and that includes letting kids make little fat men.

Do it and then in your spare time make some signs for your winter holiday thats close to the 25. If you dont have one just let them have fun and hey JOIN IN if your beliefs are truly yours a christmas party at school should not change them.

Ya get it??

[earthcat]

And Freedom of Speech fits where in your arguement, Grey?
Not to mention Freedom Of Religion.... It's our RIGHT!
We all know our government was founded by Christains, but what about the Native American and their tradition Sacred befiefs? Are they not Americans?

I totally resent your saying I'm not an American. I love this country and all it stands for; I've beloved people who died for it, and I would too, in a heartbeat. So stop being so narrowminded....

[Danustouch]

Earthcat,

Maybe I'm reading your post wrong, however, it seems to me that you are sending a mixed message. First, you claim that respect is important, and that tolerance is key, and then you say this:


One of the things I abhor about Christanity is their complete intolerance and disrespect of other people's beliefs

I'm sorry...but that right there is an intolerant statement. Abhor is a pretty strong word. Similar to the word "Hate". Not only that, but the statement is a generalization. "Christianity- THEIR complete intolerance and disrespect of other people's beliefs.". Not all Christians are intolerant and disrespectful of other people's beliefs. If that were the case, then how do you suppose that so many Christians themselves, are involved with the ACLU? Nor is Christianity, in its foundation, Intolerant, and disrespectful of other peoples beliefs. It may have been MADE to seem intolerant and disrespectful of other peoples beliefs over time, by disciples, by followers, and some ministers, and such. However, Jesus taught Tolerance and Respect in almost EVERY statement he made. (except towards hypocrites, but that's another story, for another thread). And since Christianity is based on Jesus teachings, we must assume that it is not Christianity that is at fault, but certain followers of Christianity, and their interpretations.

I'd also like to say that your advice, while wise advice in certain circumstances, doesn't seem to fit Chrystal Clears situation. Unless she can name an absolute way in which her religious rights are being infringed upon, such as her not being allowed to talk of her religion, her not being able to wear a symbol of her faith, her being forced into observing a religion which is not her own, well then, I don't see going to school officials, going to the schoolboard, going to a lawyer, going to court as being a sound judgement call. If she IS being persecuted by teachers, school administrators, or even students in some more tangible, visible, and damaging way (Such as being mocked, ridiculed, harrassed, her religion affecting the way teachers grade her, being suspended for wearing a symbol of her faith, or talking about it, etc) Then those actions (going to administration, court, etc) would be appropriate. But that isn't what she seems to be saying.

What she seems to be saying is that she doesn't like the influence that Christianity has had, and still has, in our society. Well, I hate to say it, but, in my opinion, that much, is Sour Grapes. We ARE allowed to follow our religion in this country. We may not attract as much notice, we may have to deal with people putting out false images of our religion, we may have to deal with ignorance, however, that is the fate of anyone in a minority situation. The best that you can do in any of those circumstances, is to try to clear up ignorant assumptions about your religion, whenever you witness it, and to live your life as a positive model of your faith, so that when people DO look down upon you for your religion, you can know for a fact, and prove, that you have done nothing to warrant their bias.

Though I'm not a Christian, I'll close with a phrase in the Bible, that Jesus said. "Render unto Ceasars', that which is Ceasars, and unto God, what is Gods.". If we apply that to this situation, i'd say it's a good reminder to not worry so much about the actions and feelings of others. Concentrate on YOUR life, on YOUR beliefs, on Educating yourself, and growing.

Seeing a poster of Santa Clause, will only bother someone, if they allow it. Hearing the Word "God" can only bother someone, if they allow it. Nobody is forcing her to say THAT word. She can omit it, she can change it, she can mumble "watermelon" in place of the word GOD if she wants to (though I wouldn't reccomend it, someone might think she is mocking their belief.). The Pledge is merely a standard, a guide, a symbol. She can take it however she pleases. If she doesn't like the entire CONCEPT of the pledge, that is a differen't story. I totally respect some peoples feelings on the subject, that they shouldn't have to pledge allegiance to their country. That is, in my mind, their right. If she wanted to take THAT before the principle, or schoolboard, I would support that, if it was how she felt. But to refuse to say the pledge, or to be bitter about saying the pledge, based on the word "God", is to me, trivial. And that is how most people would see it.

[earthcat]

Danustouch,
You're absolutely right; it is a mixed message. I refer to when others impose their beliefs on me; those that tell me I'm wrong, or damned, or whatever. That's what I abhor... And yes, it's intolerant. I admit that freely.... So I guess that makes me a hypocrite. So be it. I'm damned again.
And it is other's interpretations that I stuggle against. Again, you're right and I'm wrong. I need to make it clear that I do not feel all Christians are intolerant; I do humbly apologise for that remark.

As far as pursuing her dilemma by going to authority figures, that's her choice. As I said, if she lives in certain parts of the country, she may have more problems than if she were in others. I recommended tolerance and respect as a way of dealing with it; I don't, however, know her mind on the subject. Ultimately it is up to her how far she wants to go...

[Arzhela]

Originally posted by Grey
You can not expect time honored traditions to change because of us.

It's difficult to say whether it's "time honored" or not. It's not as if it's been around since the very beginning. The first pledge was at the end of the 1800s. Granted, that's a while ago, but it's not THAT long ago. The "under God' was added by Eisenhower, who, frankly, should have known better. For more info on all that, see here: http://www.jsonline.com/news/attack/sep01/pledge.asp
and also:
http://www.homeofheroes.com/hallofheroes/1st_floor/flag/1bfc_pledge.html
The second one has info on all the changes that have been made since 1892.
And I have to disagree with whoever said that you're not an American if you can't say the pledge. The pledge was not originally intended to be some kind thing that made you American or not. As you can see if you follow the second link, it was only officially put in by Congress until 1942.
Besides, you can be an American and not agree with everything the government does. I don't agree with Bush wanting to drill in Alaska. Does that mean I'm not American? No! I can disagree with the principle of the Pledge, as in my opinion it is just thinly-veiled idolatry, and I can still be American and be proud to be an American. It seems to me as if you're just drawing lines in the dust here...

In any case, the "under God" phrase has been ruled unconstitutional in one of the lower courts, I believe, and is on its way to being removed entirely (I'll have to check on that, I'm not 100% sure what's happening with it right now).

[Arzhela]

As an added note, part of the job for the congressmen that we elect is to change the constitution where they disagree with it (if they hadn't, we might still have slavery...and I hope you'll agree that it's good that THAT changed). The congressmen represent us. The United States' governement literally is "by the people, for the people." We are the United States. Disagreement with the current way of running things is just disagreement with other Americans, and we're perfectly entitled to that. It's not disloyalty to the country, because we are the country*... and that's not just egoism, it's the truth...it's what makes America different from some other countries, like China.

*that's not an endorsement of law-breaking...law-breaking is more than disagreement
Not reciting the Pledge is perfectly legal:
"The situation with the "Pledge of Allegiance" is similar. As long as student participation in the recitation of the pledge is not mandatory, the practice is entirely permissible. Any person having a religious or other objection to the recitation of the pledge need not participate. Therefore, if your school district displays a "God Bless America" or "In God We Trust" sign and/or merely allows the recitation of the pledge as one of the alternatives for engaging in patriotic exercises, there will be no constitutional violation."
-http://www.aclj.org/info/patrioticslogans.asp

On the other hand, here's a followup on the court ruling:http://www.canoe.ca/CNEWSLaw0206/26_pledge-ap.html

[Tammy Sullivan]

Crystal Clear,
What I am reading in your post is that it irks you because you feel like it is shoved down your throat a little instead of presented as an option to you. Understand this.... Religion is optional. But maybe you should ask yourself if this is one of the opportunities life hands us to learn something. If we want tolerance, we must practice what we preach.

[flar7]

This is not a moderation. Yet.
Lets keep it cool as we discuss this.


Things have come a long way in this country and continue to change.
Religous freedom is the ideal. We are on the road to this goal, and
along the way you can expect some rough spots. Political freedom
is also an ideal. More rough spots on this because of the current
drive of patriotism, even to the point of fanaticism in the country.
The Pledge of Allegience only means something if you believe it.
If you dont agree with or believe in all it says, then it doesnt really
matter if you say it or not. In fact, most people who say it are just
repeating it by rote....not feeling or caring for the words. Sure, on
special days, they may feel a surge of pride and/or like they are
on the side of the righteous.(not meant in a bad way) Should
school children know the Pledge of Allegience? probably. Should
they be required to recite it? Hardly...its a freedom to choose.

Religion has been in schools since schools were founded in this
country. The rights you have now in religous freedom in school
have come a long way and are still changing as more and more
people speak up.

So, be sad if you must, but have hope. Things are constantly changing.
Whether this is for the good or bad remains to be seen.

okay. play nice and remember the rules.....:)

[SimplyStrange]

The way I see it, "One Nation, Under God, Indivisible, with Liberty and Justice for all" is a metaphor.

All of us, under one god, to me is not religious. It's not so much about being under that loving god.... it's about coming together, it's about functioning as one society...sure, we're all different. But we're all humans, and in that respect, we're one nation...

...with liberty and justice for all right?

Some things are always going to irk us, and some things are never going to change. And some things don't necessarily need to be changed.

One nation.

Remember that.

Under [whatever] God

Indivisible

With Liberty

And Justice For All


I love America, so many freedoms. Like the freedom to debate whether or not we've really the freedoms we're promised...

[Yvonne Belisle]

You said that if you do not say the pledge and get caught you get in trouble. Can you clarify that? In what way do you get in trouble?

[Djiril]

Originally posted by Grey
You can not expect time honored traditions to change because of us. Time honored traditions have changed before because people objected to them, and from where I stand this is a good thing.
I still don't get the whole uproar over the "under God" ruling. It would be the simplest thing in the world to just take those two words out. I know some people like saying them, but that is what churches and other religious institutions are for.
As for the pledge not being mandatory, that is certainly not my experience. It can be very easy for public institutions to overlook civil rights, especially for children.

[Yvonne Belisle]

It was manditory when I was small but not as I got older but standing with your hand over your heart was and mumbling was ok in high school but not elementary

[Crystal Clear]

Someone asked what would happen if you didn't say the pledge. A few things could happen, depending on the teacher.
1) you'd be singled out and have to say the pledge after everyone else
2) if you refuse you'd get a detention for "disrupting the educational process" or "promoting hate against "God"
3) if the problem happens again you could get a phone call home or eventually suspension

[Yvonne Belisle]

If you are in a public school that is not legal and you should contact someone the ACLU has lawyers that would love a case like this you will have to have your parents behind you and be ready to accept the fact you will be in the media and some people will be really ticked at you. Only you can decide if you are really willing to pay that price.

[Arzhela]

I really don't think that a public school would make you say the pledge once you pointed out its illegality. They seem tough, but as soon as someone throws the word "legal" at them they back down.

[Yvonne Belisle]

If the parents aren't behind it though they won't do a thing (

[Grey]

Now look I'm sorry if I was a bit sinppish but really saying the pledge isnt about being christian or supporting it but about show your support for this COUNTRY ok?? "One nation under god" ooh scarry! the basis of america is comprimise between nationalities and religions and personalities. If you cant compromise a little especially in a way that dosent hurt you in least (like saying the pledge) then you shouldnt be here. Theyre not forcing you to worshop christ there saying you need to have loyalty to your homeland!

There I go being snippish again but ya know it just seems rediculous.
Djiril. If its only two words as you said then why take them out? if its only two inconsequenchal words then why cant people say them without being Oh! help Im being oppressed! Im all for religious freedom but theres a point when it just gets rediculous. if your problem is that those two word "support christianity" well what if people said you couldn't have spell books, discuss herbs, or have draught on the holidays in public because it was oppressive to christians?

[Djiril]

Originally posted by Grey

Djiril. If its only two words as you said then why take them out? if its only two inconsequenchal words then why cant people say them without being Oh! help Im being oppressed! Im all for religious freedom but theres a point when it just gets rediculous. if your problem is that those two word "support christianity" well what if people said you couldn't have spell books, discuss herbs, or have draught on the holidays in public because it was oppressive to christians? I think it's perfectly fine if people do these things on their own time, the problem I have with having these two words in the pledge in school is that it's something that everyone is expected (if not strictly required) to participate in.
This whole thing also reminds me of an article I read where a man denouncing Paganism as a "real" religion is quoted as saying, "After all, it's not 'In Trees We Trust', is it?"

[Danustouch]

The simple fact that we DO live in America, gives us the right to disagree with the country, with how it is run, And to some, taking a solemn pledge of allegiance to that country (in good or bad times) can be a very serious conflict of interest. It's not merely words that you mumble. You are taking a solemn vow in front of your classmates, community, or Deity. Some people don't take that vow lightly. If they really disagreed with the way the country was run, currently, they might not feel to inclined to PLEDGE allegiance to it. Just "Suppose" that all of a sudden, our constitution were pretty much taken away, and a future president started practicing "ethnic cleansing" or "religious persecution". Would YOU be inclined to take a solemn vow in front of your community, friends, family, class, church, deities to pledge your allegiance to it? This is why, in my opinion, saying the Pledge of Allegiance should not be Mandatory, but optional. The "Learning" of it, I can see being mandatory, but not constant repetition every day for all of your school years. I support peoples rights to disagree with the way that this country is run. And I support peoples rights to NOT pledge allegiance to the flag if they do not wish to. To me, doing it because it mentions the word "God" instead of "Goddess, Gods, Tree's " etc is NOT enough reason to refuse to say the pledge. But that's just my opinion. If a person sincerely feels a conflict of interest with saying the pledge of allegiance, then in my opinion, they shouldn't have to. But the reason Chrystal Clear stated in her original post...(the word 'God' being the reason) just seems frivolous to me, since the word can be altered, or left out.

Chrystal Clear...I'd like some reference, perhaps from a school handbook, or a written statement from your school administration regarding their policy on the Pledge of Allegiance. If that is actually true, that they claim that you refusing to say the pledge equals promoting hatred of God (which, in all honesty, unless you go to a private christian school, I sincerely doubt is really their standpoint), then yes, you do have a legitimate gripe. Separation of Church and State. If it is a PUBLIC school, they cannot force you to believe in, or promote ANY God. If it is a private school, your complaint is a moot point. The way the government looks at it, your parents have Voluntarily put you in that school, with full knowledge of that schools beliefs and standpoints. Because you are a minor, and thus under your parents guardianship, your PARENTS have the right to dictate the values which they instill in you. If they didn't want you to say the pledge, believe in God, or whatever....they could simply withdraw you from that school.

Jehovahs Witnesses are exempt from saying the Pledge of Allegiance, for instance, because in their religious belief, their allegiance should be to God and God alone. Thus, saying the pledge, to them, is blasphemy. If your school really had the standpoint that for them to refuse to say the pledge was promoting hatred of God, I could almost Garuntee you, that you, and other Pagans, would not be the only ones up in arms about this.

Please provide us with some proof, of your schools policy, and a brief explanation as to what kind of school you attend, so that we can advise you honestly and wisely.

Without the proof, or knowledge of what type of school it is, we're kind of just feeling around in the dark.

[Chibi-Fallon]

In MN the pledge isn't really said to much. We probably sing the anthem more in school (for sports and crap like that). The fish heads song is a sufficient subsitute for either. If you need the words I'll be more then happy to give them to you.
Right now, there’s no room for Jesus (or anybody else) in the public high schools as we have 40+ kids a class.

[Emerald Oak]

Originally posted by Danustouch
Please provide us with some proof, of your schools policy, and a brief explanation as to what kind of school you attend, so that we can advise you honestly and wisely.

Actually, it might not be a great idea to show proof online like that. If you're ever in a legal battle over this, they might find a way to use this against you.

[Danustouch]

Ummmmmm..how can they use that against you? A Handbook for a school, or a written statement from an administrator, as long as she has permission to reprint it, or at least a "Fair Use" portion of it is perfectly legal. It's not a "Secret society" for crying out loud, it's a school.

[WtchyChick13]

Originally posted by Chibi-Fallon
In MN the pledge isn't really said to much. We probably sing the anthem more in school (for sports and crap like that). The fish heads song is a sufficient subsitute for either. If you need the words I'll be more then happy to give them to you.
Right now, there’s no room for Jesus (or anybody else) in the public high schools as we have 40+ kids a class.

I've been staying away from this thread because as many of you know, once I get on a rant--I JUST KEEP GOING! :lol:

But this statement really irked me. Chibi--I'm a "fish-head's" song fan myself, but am I to understand from your statement above that you sing that while the Anthem is being sung?

Look, this is totally MY opinion here (let me say that right off the bat): I find that offensive. Sorry. Again, my opinion. But when the Anthem is sung--the ANTHEM is sung. That's it. I'm done on that.

While I do have much to say about the whole Pledge thing, (for the record--I don't believe "Under God" should be a part of it because neither did the author. He wanted it to be a Patriotic statement--NOT a prayer.), I won't bore you all. I think you all get the idea here and besides, I'm out of pain killers and my carpal tunnel is really kicking in! :lol:

[Tammy Sullivan]

Originally posted by Grey
If you cant compromise a little especially in a way that dosent hurt you in least (like saying the pledge) then you shouldnt be here. Theyre not forcing you to worshop christ there saying you need to have loyalty to your homeland!

If its only two words as you said then why take them out? if its only two inconsequenchal words then why cant people say them without being Oh! help Im being oppressed! Im all for religious freedom but theres a point when it just gets rediculous.

Point 1:Comprimise in a way that doesn't hurt me? Well standing there silent IS a comprimise, I'm respectful of other's beliefs that way, while being loyal to my own.

Point 2: Failing sacrificial practices I do not see a point where freedom, religous or otherwise , becomes ridiculous. AND when you consider that that is the foundation of this country, how in the world is it not oppressive? Why take the words out? Because this is America....Freedom of thought and speech are our right.

[Grey]

Yah got a point Danu yah got a point.

[Grey]

Greta, what I ment was that sometimes people just seem to gripe over little things. NO SHE SHOULDN'T HAVE TO SAY THE PLEDGE but she shouldn't have a problem saying shes for our government and will follow its laws as they follow the constition the highest law we have in this country. you have your freedom of thought/speach and so do I and so does she. IF theyre infringing on her rights then fight it but Ive heard to many people going on about how the pledge itself or the star spangled banner is against the law because they say "god" in them.
I take the pledge quite seriously myself as an oath. But (as danu stated) if they started "ethnic cleansing" or took away the constition it would no longer be the government I declared my allegiance to.

[Psyche Ague]

I used my freedom of speech in high school to NOT say the pledge. Especially since Bush became president. "Under God" or not, I never pledge my allegiance to a flag. I pledge my allegiance to the beautiful ideals America wanted to have...but never had. So I didn't say the pledge. And no one said anything to me about it. I stood respectfully while everyone else said it and didn't mean it, but I never said it. I never sang the national anthem except when my chorus did and I go to see fireworks because it's fun.

That's using the first amendment. It's my right. Challenge it all you want, but it's my right. I would gladly pledge allegiance to the Constitution and the ideals it stands for.

[LunarSun]

As I see it "Under God" should go because of the reasons it was put there in 54. The words do not really offend me.

I have seen several comments that these words do not represent Christianity. Well, that depends on what part of the US you are standing on at the moment. The same goes for intollerance by Christians.

It has been my experience in the Bible Belt that any opposing view to Christianty is immediately slated as evil, and anyone holding that view is evil also. This does not seem to hold true is the West and the North (Speaking from my experience).

I guess, even though we walk to a different tune, we find ourselves forced to do or say things to go along with the majority.

We believe also in majority rule. Although it may not be perfect, at times, we have to "go with the flow" to survive. We have to mix majority rule with other rights.

No, I not saying give up your principles. Just make a stand when you really have a chance of making a difference -- and not place other people in line for ridicule(such as kids).

I guess the world is not always fair to everyone - we just have to make the best of it and make changes when we can. :)