Orisha's, Lwa, and Saint's

[David19]

I hope this doesn't seem like a dumb question, and I've been really enjoying the threads in this forum, as I really want to learn a lot more about Santeria, Voodoo, Palo, Hoodoo, etc. This is a question I've had for awhile, but are the Lwa of Voodoo, the Orisha's of Santeria, the beings/spirits of Palo, ec and the Saint's all considered the same, or are they seen as different beings?.

I know some people say, in Voodoo, Santeria, Palo, etc, the Saint's are used as a "mask" for the spirits/supernatural being, but I've also heard that, while they are used as a mask, practicioners of those, and other related religions/traditions, don't see them as being the same entity (meaning, St. Peter's image may be used on an altar with Papa Legba in Voodoo, or Eshu in Santeria, or the equivalent being in Palo, etc, but that doesn't mean, St. Peter has the same personality/character/etc as Eshu and/Papa Legba, etc.

I'm quite confused about this, do practicioners of Santeria, Voodoo, Palo, Hoodoo, etc see the Saints and the various beings, like Lwa, Orisha's, etc as being the same being, or just related to each other, and close enough that they can be associated with each other, but still be different beings, or does it depend on the individual, and how they view things and/or experience them?.

I'm really hoping I've explained myself right, and I hope you understand this post, as I'd really like some help.

Thanks for any help you can give.

[Ochareo!]

This is actully a good thread and some of the questions here posed are contributing to education other or each other on topics. There is no stupied question. I of course can only respond to santeria and palo traditions.

History tells us that african slaves brought to cuba had to mask or associate the orichas or palo dieties with saints. Eleggua is associated with San Antonio or more commonly known as Santo Nino de Atocha, Shango is associated with Santa Barbara, Obatala is associated with La Virgen de La Mercedes, Yemaya with La Virgen de Regla, and Ochun La Virgen de La Caridad just to mention a few. The issue is here is are they the same in one. Absalutley NOT. Old school olorichas (initiated priest of Oricha) have a tendency to continue to associate the orichas with the saints. The correct answer is that Santa Barbara is Santa Barbara and Shango is Shango! The attributes are similar, but far from the same. So its not ok to say Eleggua is Santo Nino de Atocha! or that Santa Barbara is Shango! They are not the same in one. It's crucial to understand this. Some use the saints and continue to associate them to the orichas because they do not have anyone to teach them or its the closest thing to what they have read. Remember that I frawn on literature and websites that give wrongful information. Most of the stuff that is out there encourage using of the saints, which is misleading. Lets remember that the saints are catholasisim not african base. Also, it's important to recognize that the deities in Palo, Santeria, and others are not the same entities or else they would be named the same. I will tell you this. Its not acceptable nor is it appropriate to say for example the Oricha Chango is equivalent to the Palo diety Siete Rayos or Oggun the same as Sarabanda. Very different schools of thought and different dieties by nature. Similarities yes but not the one and the same.

It's ignorence to also say Yemaya is Madre de Agua or make reference to them as if they are not different. Does this make sence. The biggest problem in today's generation is that people love to mix. But that is very dangerous play. I once new of an oloricha that mix ceramonies and half ass did things. She mix oricha with palo. Well longstory short, she lost her buisness and is a looney tune! These are powerful entities dont burn yourself or morelikely dont kill yourself.


By the way DON NOT ACCEPT MIGGINE WIPPLER literature as fact its completly if not entirely DISTORTED INFORMATION. If anyone has encourage her literature, they themselves probably were students of Santeria as well and there teaching were not from elders in the Oloricha community.

There is another man that was a gay babalow whom had a horriable reputation Raul Canizares. He totaly distorted Oricha and Palo. He was hated in the community and just for FYI purposes you can not be a Gay and be an Awo or Babalow! So do not see him as a resource. Because of his corupted ways and mixing he is Ibae now. Which means HE IS DEAD----RIP.

Ochareo!
Ochareo!

[alwaysfallingup]

There is another man that was a gay babalow whom had a horriable reputation Raul Canizares. He totaly distorted Oricha and Palo. He was hated in the community and just for FYI purposes you can not be a Gay and be an Awo or Babalow! So do not see him as a resource. Because of his corupted ways and mixing he is Ibae now. Which means HE IS DEAD----RIP.

Ochareo!
Ochareo!

Could you please explain the basis for your belief that someone who is gay can't be an Awo or Babalow? Is it based on a negative reaction to this Raul Canizares person, or do you feel that there is some religious or historical basis for this belief?

[Artiste-LiLi]

Perhaps it would be helpful to some to see/have a listing which shows the similarities and differences between them. By this I mean a list which would list the name of each deity (from each path), their attributes and then the Saint that used to be associated with them and why that specific Saint was chosen to "hide" that specific deity.

Something like:

Eleggua: attributes/San Antonio:attributes/Chosen to represent because

Shango: attributes/Santa Barbara: attributes/Chosen to represent because

Obatala: attributes/La Virgen de La Mercedes: attributes/Chosen to represent because

This would allow someone to see similarities and differences alike. This could also be done with all the paths, not just with Santeria and Palo...but, Hatian Vodou and New Orleans VooDoo as well.

I know you can only speak for Santeria and Palo......but I am sure there are others that can speak for the Hatian and New Orleans paths. I would be willing to do as much research as I can and provide what information I can based upon that research and my family's practices. I know Shalaye Sabariego provided a list here: http://mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=194122 post #9.

[aranarose]

I personally think that the Lwa/Saints/Orishas/etc. are all different entities. They have similarities, and Saints were chosen by slaves to represent the various Lwa/Orisha because it was convenient and necessary for their safety to do so, but that's it. They represent the Lwa, they are not the Lwa.

I say this based on the feeling I get from working with the Saints and the Lwa. I've worked with Saint Philomena, Saint Theresa, Mary, and also Erzulie Freda. In Vodou, there is a certain representation of Mary that is used to represent Erzulie Freda, but from my work with Mary and Erzulie, I get the distinct impression that they are very different entities. Mary is much calmer and accepts an offering of prayer with ease. Her help tends to be very, very subtle, and the types of things that I ask for her help in tend to be limited. Erzulie Freda, on the other hand, is anything BUT subtle. She demands regular physical offerings, and is very pushy about it. If she doesn't get what she wants, then you will know it. She doesn't simply go away quietly when I'm not paying attention, like Mary does, she gets in my face and lets me know that she is NOT happy with what I'm doing. And the results, when I ask for her help, are so dramatic that it's unmistakeable that SHE did it, it's NOT coincidence, there's no other explanation.

While their are many similarities between the groups, I really do feel that they are very different entities. If they were the same, then I think worship of them would be the same, and it's not. I've been called by a Lwa, but never by an Orisha. I've also been called by various Catholic Saints.

[Artiste-LiLi]

I personally think that the Lwa/Saints/Orishas/etc. are all different entities. They have similarities, and Saints were chosen by slaves to represent the various Lwa/Orisha because it was convenient and necessary for their safety to do so, but that's it. They represent the Lwa, they are not the Lwa.

I say this based on the feeling I get from working with the Saints and the Lwa. I've worked with Saint Philomena, Saint Theresa, Mary, and also Erzulie Freda. In Vodou, there is a certain representation of Mary that is used to represent Erzulie Freda, but from my work with Mary and Erzulie, I get the distinct impression that they are very different entities. Mary is much calmer and accepts an offering of prayer with ease. Her help tends to be very, very subtle, and the types of things that I ask for her help in tend to be limited. Erzulie Freda, on the other hand, is anything BUT subtle. She demands regular physical offerings, and is very pushy about it. If she doesn't get what she wants, then you will know it. She doesn't simply go away quietly when I'm not paying attention, like Mary does, she gets in my face and lets me know that she is NOT happy with what I'm doing. And the results, when I ask for her help, are so dramatic that it's unmistakeable that SHE did it, it's NOT coincidence, there's no other explanation.

While their are many similarities between the groups, I really do feel that they are very different entities. If they were the same, then I think worship of them would be the same, and it's not. I've been called by a Lwa, but never by an Orisha. I've also been called by various Catholic Saints.


Oh ABSOLUTELY they are all *very different* entities! For me, they are in no way "interchangable" and within my family it is very disrespectful to think or do otherwise.

My thoughts regarding the "list" is that I would hope it would allow someone newer on the paths to see just that.......
That, yes, there are similarities, but they are NOT the same entity, that this particular Saint was chosen because the Saint shares some of the same attributes..but the Saint is a seperate entity and the Deity is a seperate entity......that a specific Saint was chosen for no other reason than to "cover" for a specific deity because of the similar attributes. It might help someone see the "why of it".

And GOOD MORNING Ms. Aranarose!!!!:smile:

[aranarose]

Good morning to you too!

I think a list would be a wonderful idea!

Even though I view the Saints as different from the Lwa, I still use the Saint candles to represent the Lwa, because it is convenient to do so. Historically, Erzulie Freda has been represented by and image of Mary called the Mater Dolorosa. When working with Erzulie, and on that altar, goes that image. When working with Mary, I choose a different image, and pray the rosary to her, as the rosary is her prayer.

There AREN'T other images of Erzulie, because that's the one that's been historically used.

I also think a list will be useful for people who feel a pull, but aren't quite sure from where they feel that pull. Sometimes a name and description will spark some recognition and drive them to research.

[plumedsnake]

Could you please explain the basis for your belief that someone who is gay can't be an Awo or Babalow? Is it based on a negative reaction to this Raul Canizares person, or do you feel that there is some religious or historical basis for this belief?

This is an issue that keeps coming up in the tradition. I personally do not have an issue with homosexuality and I know gay people that I get on with and respect. I've also heard many different reasons as to why a gay babalawo cannot be. A lot of the reasons that I've heard I just consider to be homophobia, but that which holds water for me has to do with the fact that Sexual energy is at the root of Ifa and homosexuality is not Procreative.

In many Ifa verses the subject is procreation. and many prayers state that desires in this order. One, to have money, two to have a wife, three to have children. This is because it is believed that generation comes of man and woman. So it is believed that all life's processes are products of the interaction of male and female energy. Not just in the physical sexual act between a man and a woman but also mystically in the invisible world there is a constant interaction between male and female that brings things into fruition. I abhor homophobia and actually do suspect that those who seem obsessed with it in a hateful way are in actual fact at war with homoerotic feelings that they are experiencing. However I cannot argue against the fact that homosexuality is not Procreative and if the Procreative process is at the root of a spiritual system then homosexuality cannot be of value to that system.

Many people looking superficially at Ifa have come to the conclusion that the yoruba were obsessed with making babies and that the system is just a means to ensure fertility and have children. True, about 95 per cent of the verses addresses the birth of a child as the final fulfilment of the matter, but I actually read it differently. By the birth of a child I read the Fruition of the clients aspirations. So the sex and the pregnancy are just spiritual processes to bring about the child which would be the result that the querent is seeking.

Consider this verse from Odi meji:

Funfun niyi eyin
Whiteness is the pride of teeth
Egun gagaaga niyi orun
Slender length is the pride of the neck
Omu siki siki siki niyi obinrin
Full breasts are the pride of womanhood
A dia f'Eji Odi
declared Ifa for Eji Odi
ti nsunkun alailobinrin
Who was in tears because he couldn't find a woman
Ti nfi joojumo kawoo botan
Who spent all day thrusting his hand between his thighs
Ero Ipo, Ero Ofa
People of Ipo, People of Ofa
Igba idi di meji Naa la dolomo
Do you not know that until two genitals (idi meji can be translated as two genitals) meet we cannot bear children.

This meeting of two genitals is as much a spiritual event as a physical one.

[Teresa]

I understand the lists and I can see the similarities and I do on occasion visit a Catholic Church here, but I can not really get into the synching myself on a personal level. That was not how I was raised. It is foreign to me, although I use the statues and the figurines and pictures of the Saints; I see them as being different entities with similarities. I choose to use the plain white candles primarily. For certain Loa, I do like to use colored ones.

[Ochareo!]

I use catholic saints when I work espiritismo. There is nothing wrong with that. The important from the perspective that I presented was simply Saints are not Orichas. In regards to color of candle. White is universal so color is really not an issue if you dont have the color at hand.

Ochareo!

[Ochareo!]

Could you please explain the basis for your belief that someone who is gay can't be an Awo or Babalow? Is it based on a negative reaction to this Raul Canizares person, or do you feel that there is some religious or historical basis for this belief?


Well being gay in oricha worship is not an issue, actually it seems to be a trend for gays to seek this tradition since it widely excepts gays in to this tradition. In IFA it's not clear for me. I will ask my elders and friends that are babalows. So give me some time and I will get the information. As you already know my information and knowledge is from elders and in this case it will come from awo's. Links and books are not always in harmony with the true accuracy of IFA and Oricha.


I have a pataki in mind but I need to seek guidance from elders, dont want to mislead or provide wrong information.

Ochareo!

[Artiste-LiLi]

Please.....this word: pataki....what does it mean?

[Atheos]

Well being gay in oricha worship is not an issue, actually it seems to be a trend for gays to seek this tradition since it widely excepts gays in to this tradition. In IFA it's not clear for me. I will ask my elders and friends that are babalows!
I think it could be the same reason that women are not allowed to be babalawos. The words meaning relates to fatherhood.

[plumedsnake]

Please.....this word: pataki....what does it mean?

I understand that in Cuba it means a story that is used to explain and portray an Odu. Actually in Yoruba language pataki just means 'important'. Perhaps in Cuba the practitioners use the term to suggest that the stories were of great importance and eventually it just came to mean the Ifa story.

The verses in Ifa have a number of set structures. The most common one starts with Titular names of babalawos that in the past (or mythological time) performed a divination for a client. Once that is stated the next part to follow is the story/pataki. The opening verses are fixed in structure word for word but the story part is open to the creativity of the awo to elaborate or sparse down as he wishes. After the story has been told the awo then returns to the opening verses using certain formulas, eg. 'And after all was successful, he opened his mouth and songs issued forth, and he extended his legs and they got caught up in dancing, and he exclaimed "This was what my babalawos predicted when they raised blessed voiced to chant Ifa . . . . . "' and that last statement kicks you back into the opening verses which are then chanted again as a recapitulation.

[plumedsnake]

I think it could be the same reason that women are not allowed to be babalawos. The words meaning relates to fatherhood.

A Woman can be an Iyanifa, but it is the final stage of Awo initiation that they cannot do. This is called Igbo'du. They are not allowed to witness Odu. Any woman going into the grove of Odu (igbodu) will suffer the consequences.

By the Way, the term Odu is used in a number of different senses. Odu is what we call each signature of Ifa. There are 16 signatures and they combine in couples to give 256 odu.

Odu is also the Container or the womb of the world. The whole world exists within Odu and everything that exists in the world is born into the world from the womb we call Odu.

Odu is also known as the wife of Orunmila, she is a very powerful Witch but she is very jealous of other women and that is why women are not allowed to see Odu because she will strike them with infertility.

There is also the ritual object called Odu that a babalawo receives when he has passed the highest initiation. Women cannot have this.

I believe that again it has a lot to do with sexual energy.

[Artiste-LiLi]

I understand that in Cuba it means a story that is used to explain and portray an Odu. Actually in Yoruba language pataki just means 'important'. Perhaps in Cuba the practitioners use the term to suggest that the stories were of great importance and eventually it just came to mean the Ifa story.

The verses in Ifa have a number of set structures. The most common one starts with Titular names of babalawos that in the past (or mythological time) performed a divination for a client. Once that is stated the next part to follow is the story/pataki. The opening verses are fixed in structure word for word but the story part is open to the creativity of the awo to elaborate or sparse down as he wishes. After the story has been told the awo then returns to the opening verses using certain formulas, eg. 'And after all was successful, he opened his mouth and songs issued forth, and he extended his legs and they got caught up in dancing, and he exclaimed "This was what my babalawos predicted when they raised blessed voiced to chant Ifa . . . . . "' and that last statement kicks you back into the opening verses which are then chanted again as a recapitulation.

Thank you Plumedsnake. Looking back over your posts I see exactly what you mean. I know a little bit about Native American teachings and I believe many of these follow a similar pattern.

[Teresa]

The similarities are their attributes. Just like the Saints, the Loa act as intermediaries between the Creator and the Human World. The Loa interact with people and things to help create and maintain a spiritual balance.

[Sage Rainsong]

I personally do see the saints and the loa/ orisha as separate beings. I think that the attributes are chosen because they have something in common with the saint. It is not as necessary to hide as much in many place these days, but the synchronism still remains (I'm not saying that there is anything wrong with that for the record). Speaking of the whole gay issue, has anyone ever read the book, "Queering Creole Spiritual Traditions" by Randy P. Conner? I was just wondering if it was any good.

[David19]

I personally do see the saints and the loa/ orisha as separate beings. I think that the attributes are chosen because they have something in common with the saint. It is not as necessary to hide as much in many place these days, but the synchronism still remains (I'm not saying that there is anything wrong with that for the record). Speaking of the whole gay issue, has anyone ever read the book, "Queering Creole Spiritual Traditions" by Randy P. Conner? I was just wondering if it was any good.

I agree with you (and with everyone else who posted too), I think you're probably right. I haven't read that book, but I think I've heard of it, I'd be interested to know if it's any good too, if it is, I might try and pick it up sometime.

[plumedsnake]

I think that someone else who incorporated homosexuality into a heterosexual tradition was Aleister Crowley. I don't know how successful his experiments are but perhaps it is worth checking him out.