They ARE out to get us.

[Danustouch]

Ahhhhhh..this mornings Chuckle. Actually, ya know, compared with some of the anti witchcraft stuff on the web, and the formula many born again christians have used to "Witness to Witches" this one, doesn't actually seem so bad. I think I'd love to have tea with this author :) lol.

http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2000/012/12.107.html

[MidnightSun]

Interesting.....

[earthcat]

hmmmmm....
All righty then!!!

May I join you in your tea, Danustouch? It could be fun!

[Danustouch]

:) What made me chuckle, is that the whole tone of the article is deceptive. As in..."here's how to 'trick' a Wiccan". And then she says...."dont use books such as blah, blah, blah, because they seem condescending". Uh....wait...if you have to formulate a game plan to "trick" us into converting, then..uh...isn't THAT a bit condescending? Seems pretty condescending AND patronizing to me. LOL. But..ya know..I'll take patronizing over "You're gonna burn in hell, WITCH!" any day :)

[earthcat]

Yes.... A lot less spit in your face!!!!http://www.plaudersmilies.de/laugh.gif

[MammaStar]

That was interesting. Could've been worse. :D

[Danustouch]

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Ya know..I think we should make a Pagan or Wiccan Gameshow, and host it on the Christian Television Network. "Trick a Witch". Man..we could make MILLIONS!

Host: Ok, Ms, Rhiannon BlueSky Dawn, Here's your next puzzle. Out of the next three statements. WHICH is an attempt to convert???

Statement 1. You've sneezed, Christian says "God Bless You"
2. I'll say a prayer for your grandmother tonight.
3. You DO want to feast all day and sing hallelujia's in
heaven...don't you?

Contestant: Hmmmmmm...I don't know...uh..Jacob. yeah..that's your name, right? Jacob. Ummm...I don't know...That whole feast all day and sing hallelujia's really wouldn't convert me all that much...ummm..i have a terrible singing voice, and am lactose intolerant, vegitarian, and have a wheat/soy/nut allergy. And my Grandmother IS a christian..so...that's not a conversion attempt at me. She's already a Christian, and they were saying that they'd pray for her. So...um....I'd say "God Bless You".

Host: Oh.................noooooooo.........I'm soooooo sorry Ms. Rhiannon BlueSky Dawn...the correct answer was "Feast all day and sing Hallelujia......oh well..God may bless your next attempt more".

[Yvonne Belisle]

By the power of the allmighty dollar we comand these witches to repent??????

[Danustouch]

LOL :)

[Emaleth]

Interesting, better something like this article than "you're gonna burn in hell!':p

Blessed Be

[Yvonne Belisle]

Very good point not to mention the fact that if they honestly aproach it that way then they are primed to listen to what we are saying who knows maybe one or two may be set to convert us and end up converting themselves.

[Semele]

Originally posted by Emaleth
Interesting, better something like this article than "you're gonna burn in hell!':p

Blessed Be

Nah, I just much prefer the short route honest approach and the condemnation to a Hell I don't believe in. Way better than the BS, phony interest in my views, while they cringe through the explanations, twitching to go kneel and pray for us both. Or maybe it is just my cynical, current mood.

[Emaleth]

Originally posted by Semele


Nah, I just much prefer the short route honest approach and the condemnation to a Hell I don't believe in. Way better than the BS, phony interest in my views, while they cringe through the explanations, twitching to go kneel and pray for us both. Or maybe it is just my cynical, current mood.

I know what you mean, but open hostility hurts me very much. That's why I prefer a more tolerant approach. And they can try to convert us, but they'd have a hard time doing that:p .

Blessed Be

[Sequoia]

I actually thought that was pretty cool! :D I mean, at least we got grouped with the major religions of Judasim and Muslimism! hehe And that was a lot more respect than most things I see!

I didn't really see her tones of tricking people so much as trying to show the similiarities between wicca and christianity (and there are quite a few, if you look at them from the right angle), or just trying to give a pagan a little more respect. I personally think that's pretty darn cool. If they want conversions, respect is a very good path to try. And it will most likely invite some really interesting religious discussions!

I dono, I was really 'thused over that article. . . to me, she was telling readers to show witches (pagans in general, perhaps?) just as much respect as you would a Jewish person or Muslim person. To me, that is very cool. Very, very cool. :)

[Azure]

At least there is some civility to the tone, but I am pretty much unimpressed with people trying to convert others to any faith. Spirituality is one of the most basic and personal things most people have in their lives, and no matter how polite the attempt, the act of manipulating others into converting is pretty repulsive in my opinion.

How about just accepting that not everyone is served well by the identical spiritual formula and being kind and genuinely tolerant, instead of putting up a front of false tolerance so you can trick someone or wear them down?

To me, polite or not, the goal is a nasty one.

[Arzhela]

I don't think from their view it is nasty at all (well, that goes kind of without saying, doesn't it?) But what I mean is that...look at that last line: "love them and let them know they're welcome." I don't think that it's all about getting rid of heathens. I'd say that it's much more spreading the love of God...or at least I think that's how they perceive it. Just because I prefer a different system and don't want to leave it doesn't mean that I wouldn't appreciate the approach that they're taking. I'm not sure that what other folks are taking for a sort of "trick the witch" really is that at all. There is a certain emphasis on trying to understand the religion so that you can talk to them on the same level and let them see that you aren't an entirely different species...but is that so bad? That's not really "trick the witch"...or, if it is, I don't find it all that offensive. And they do emphasize acceptance of the person that chose the religion...like, for instance, the earrings and incense bit.

I've had both condemnationg and condescension from Born-Again relatives at family gatherings just for letting on that I sing in a Unitarian choir! Really...this article is not so bad.

[Pan]

Okay, first off.. I didn't read it like they were trying to trick us into converting. I just read it like they sincerely meant NOT to convert pagans with those words. I mean, why peg them as converting folks all the time? Wouldn't that be like pegging pagans and Wiccans as doing non-stop ritual or wearing robes all the time? Or even doing curses!

I just read it like they meant what they said.. and I rather liked reading it. I even bookmarked it to look at later.. again and again. So, why read everything by Christians as attacks against pagans? That would be like reading everything a pagan writes as an attack at Christians.

Just a thought.

[Azure]

Perhaps because the title isn't "How to treat Pagans and Wiccans with honor and tolerance" but "How to Witness to Wiccans." The goal is explicit: conversion.

They simply chose polite buzz words instead of overt attack to accomplish that goal. But in spite of the nice word choice, they want us to change our most fundamental beliefs to match theirs. Period.

It may be a nice change from "you're going to hell" but the intend is very clear. I don't find, as I said earlier, being evangelized with the deliberate intent to "convert" me to be an example of kind behavior. Actually, I find evangelism kind of sad, because it seems to underline a perceived threat from other religions - regardless of how nicely it's done.

Real respect means letting other people freely chose their own spirituality, not trying to change it to yours because you don't like it.

Most Christians are pretty nice people who will treat you with tolerance - but beneath the nice words, IMO, this ain't them.

I don't try to convert anyone. I expect others to grant me the same courtesy.

[Arzhela]

They may respect you personally, but they also believe in their religion to the extent that they wish to help other people into that religion, because they think that it is the right thing to do. Yes, the goal is conversion. But I think you're putting the wrong motives behind conversion.
For instance: I respect most Christians. I respect my Born-Again relatives, even though I disagree with their views, and I dislike their religious intolerance. However, I might one day try (and have tried when the subject was brought up) to get them to see things from my perspective, because I believe that they are being close-minded and disrespectful to other people. However, perhaps they see me as being disrespectful to their god by not worshipping him, so they try to get me to see things from their point of view. Or perhaps they want to help me, because they believe that bad things happen to people who don't worship this god. In all probability they're trying to put things to rights, too. They still like me, respect me...but they do try to get me to see things from their perspective.
There is no inherent evil or disrespect in the wish to convert people. What matters is the intent behind the conversion. We're all a product of our upbringing, no matter how different we are from our parents.

[Azure]

I certainly agree that they believe that it is their moral duty to try and convert us - but that doesn't make it right, good, kind, or positive.

It is difficult to get away from what you've been brought up with - but many people do it.

Dayna Curry believed it was her moral duty so firmly that she was willing to risk the lives of the people she proselytized to - even knowing consciously that the threat wasn't to her since she was an American, but to them - in Afghanistan. That is, she knew that they could DIE horribly because she wanted to convert them, but she was willing to risk their lives anyway. And she puts on such a nice face for the people here in Nashville. I'm sure she meant well.

I still say the same thing - the goal of taking away someone's deepest held beliefs and replacing them with your own, no matter how much "better" you feel your beliefs are is not a positive one.

[WtchyChick13]

From article:

"Do not imply that accepting Christ means accepting your culture. If your friend burns incense and has 19 earrings, so be it."

Like we Pagans are the only ones who burn incense? We found out IN CHURCH of my allergy to incense! :lol:


Well, from my point of view, I found it to be extremely condescending while trying to hide behind a form of sincerity.:rolleyes:

I did get a good laugh though--thanks!!! :p ;) :p

[Sequoia]

. . . . what if she is sincere?

[WtchyChick13]

Maybe she is and we are reading something more into it because it is US that it affects. Could be. I find now that I'm more cynical when it comes to stuff like this. I'm always on the defense. That's also a reason that I'm very much buried in the "broom closet". I just don't want to deal.

But maybe you are right. Maybe in her own way she is being sincere. Anything's possible. :)

[Danustouch]

Ok....first of all, i'm usually one of the first people in line, to defend Christians and their right to their beliefs. However, I believe in calling a spade a spade. Yes, the methods this woman is advocating are kind and humane methods of "converting" pagans. However, When you euthenize a dog, you are choosing the kind and humane method of doing so. But that doesn't mean the dog doesn't die, or that it doesn't suck that he's gone. Bottom line. The author believe it is a Christians moral responsibility to "Witness" to Pagans. With the ultimate goal of "Winning their souls" to Christ. She probably IS very sincere in her desire to embrace pagans, and make them feel loved, and welcomed. But what is her motivation for doing so? As a former born again christian, I will tell you what that motivation is. In Christian Churches, Schools, and organizations, they teach you to go forth and be fishers of men (bringing souls to christ). Some take a hardline method of this (i.e threaghts of burning in hell). More progressive churches, advocate the use of being an example of Christ. I mean..think about it. If you met Jesus, saw him performing all these miracles, were healed by him, hugged by him, loved by him, you'd have a pretty hard time saying "no" to conversion, too. This is their belief. That if they exemplify Christs own teachings, they will win souls just as Jesus won converts in his day.

They SINCERELY Believe that what they do, they do for your own benefit. They SINCERELY believe that they are helping you. Yes, that much is true. And I can't fault the woman for desiring to "help" people. However, it doesn't mean that I want anyone trying to convert me to anything, in any way, shape or form.

I would be polite to her, if I met her. Of Course. I would understand where her *heart* is. And that would make me want to be kind to her. But I wouldn't budge an inch on my belief systems. I'm not saying we should all go and send her hatemail, or tell her she's ignorant, or anything of the sort. She seems like a gentle, and kind person. But that doesn't mean that I "LIKE" the Christian theme of Conversion.

[gunner]

well put danustouch

[earthcat]

ditto... :)

[Arzhela]

Yep. Nicely done.

[Sequoia]

eh. . . I'll agree to slightly dissagree :)

[Flaire-FireStar]

Originally posted by Emaleth
Interesting, better something like this article than "you're gonna burn in hell!':p

Blessed Be

Burn in hell....Heck no. I'm gonna freeze. :p

[Danustouch]

Ok..puma. Just out of curiosity, what part of that do you slightly disagree with?

The part that says her goal IS to convert?

The title of the article is "How to witness to witches" or something like that.

That tells you right there that that is the motive.

I'm confused.

[Old Witch]

To witness is to try to convert is my understanding too........

[kblackthorne]

And my understanding is that it means being an exaple of Christ.

Those who are called will come, and it's not your job to worry about it.

Much of the advice she gives is exactly the same sort of advice I give to those trying to "come out of the broom-closet" to those with deeply-held Christian (or other) beliefs -- find common ground, use inclusive & non-threatening language, offer reading material so they can learn more.

[Sequoia]

I just kind of disagree personally - I really don't care, if she wants to spend her time being nice to me and trying to convert me, unless she's doing it 24-7-365. . . I'm probably not going to get upset over it *chuckles* Positive energy! Good thing! ;)

I just personally don't think it's a big thing to get concerned about - KKK or psycho-fundies, yes, I'd be a little annoyed (or more likely, scared and holding some form of sharp pointy thing close). But I really don't think her article is anything to get one's feathers ruffled over.

I'm not saying you're freaking out - obviously not! ^_^; Just that I wouldn't be worried about it at all.

(slightly off topic - I just did my nails for the first time in about a year and a half, and I keep noticing my fingers typing! *laughs*)

[Danustouch]

Those who are called will come, and it's not your job to worry about it.

Hmmmmm..well..that entirely depends upon denomination. Such as Arminian theology, vs Calvinist Theology.

I'm not sure where Catholicism falls into that, since it's not a protestant religion. However, in Protestant Denominations, where there is a LOT More emphasis on Witnessing, and "fishing"
(Mainly the EVANGELICAL branches). And lest you doubt the emphasis on evangelizing in Christian religions, here's a quote from a recent study of Pastors from various Christian denominations


For instance, more than four out of five Senior Pastors (83%) describe themselves as "evangelical."

Of the Evangelical Branches of the Christian Religion, there are the two aforementioned theologies. Calvin, believed in Predestination. Meaning, that only a certain number were "meant" to be called. Of course, we as mere mortals can't always know who is meant to be called, so we're still supposed to "Witness/Evangelize".

http://calvarychapel.com/library/taylor-larry/text/cva.htm#01

Arminian Theology, on the other hand, believes wholly that God does not "elect" those who will follow him, although he does have "foreknowledge" of who will come to him, and who won't.
However, it is still necessary to evangelize, because you may be the "Very Tool" to bring a follower to Christ.

(I learned something in Christian College..woo..really..I did!)

Almost across the board, in Protestant denominations, there is a HEAVY emphasis on evangelism. The word they use to refer to evangelism, is "Witnessing".

I can't testify to Catholic Churches, as I know they differ greatly in their theology. However, I can testify to that fairly well, on behalf of Protestant Denominations, as I've pretty much run the gammut, before giving up on it entirely, and becoming Pagan :)