Native American Issues

[Kaylara]

Adoption apology too late for Indians



By Judith Graham
Tribune staff reporter
May 7, 2001
DENVER -- Sandy White Hawk says she remembers the day in 1954 when she was taken away by missionaries from the Rosebud Sioux Reservation in South Dakota. Standing in a red truck beside the stern woman who would become her adopted mother, the toddler gazed up at a pale white arm so different from any arm that had hugged her before. The 18-month-old wouldn't see her Indian family for the next 34 years.

At her new home, White Hawk was afraid for a long time, and then ashamed. "My adoptive mother constantly told me I was being saved from being a pagan, good-for-nothing Indian," said White Hawk, 47. "I felt so isolated and empty, ugly and unwanted."

It's because of so many other similarly unsettling stories that late last month the nation's largest child welfare organization apologized to White Hawk and other American Indians for its participation in a controversial program that removed Indian children from their homes and placed them with white adoptive families across the nation in the 1950s and 1960s. Many of those people, now middle aged and with children of their own, have spent much of their lives trying to deal with the emotional fallout from the adoptions.

Speaking before a group of Indian child welfare experts in Anchorage, Shay Bilchik, executive director of the Child Welfare League of America, said: "What we did may have been well-intentioned, but it was wrong, it was biased, it was hurtful. It is time to tell the truth -- that our actions presupposed that Indian children would be better off with white families as opposed to staying in their own communities and tribes -- and be reconciled."

For White Hawk and others, however, the apology comes too late to prevent the emotional scars inflicted in their youth by these adoptions.

Dealing with the pain

White Hawk began to abuse alcohol as a teenager, "anything to deal with the pain," she said. In 1988, she found her way back to the Rosebud reservation, and discovered 19 aunts and uncles she hadn't known existed; her mother was already dead.

"I was led to believe I was taken from nothing and I go back to find so much: people who remembered me and who were glad I came back," she said. "You can't imagine how angry I was."

The league's expressions of regret follow a groundbreaking apology last September by the head of the federal Bureau of Indian Affairs for the agency's "legacy of racism and inhumanity" toward American Indians.

But words alone are not enough, Bilchik said. The Child Welfare League, based in Washington, will address American Indian family concerns more aggressively through its training, education, publications and advocacy programs, he said, and will put more emphasis on preparing member agencies to implement the Indian Child Welfare Act, a landmark 1978 law that is often ignored in many areas of the country, according to several studies.

"We need to create a more culturally competent level of practice with Indian children and their families than we see in our field today," said Bilchik, whose organization includes nearly 1,200 agencies in the U.S.

The Indian Adoption Project, run by the Child Welfare League with support from the Bureau of Indian Affairs, began in 1958 and ended a decade later when it was folded into another, larger initiative. During those years, 395 Indian children from 16 mostly Western states were placed with white families in 26 states, mostly in the East and Midwest. About 48 children were resettled in Illinois, 39 went to Missouri, 34 found homes in Indiana, and 24 landed in Iowa.

History of federal policies

This was not the first time Indian children were separated from their families. Beginning in 1860, federal officials began to encourage the development of boarding schools where Indian children could be assimilated into white culture. The history of these institutions, where children were not allowed to speak their tribal language or practice their native religion and where discipline was often harsh, has been well documented.

While federal policies changed in the 1930s, interest in "saving" Indian children from the culture of the reservation remained, according to a 2000 study prepared by the National Indian Child Welfare Association and Casey Family Programs, a Seattle foundation. With the Indian Adoption Project, a movement to place Indian children in white families gained momentum. The justification was poverty and neglect reported on Indian reservations, according to "Far From the Reservation," a 1972 book by David Fanshel, a Columbia University social work professor.

"The purpose of the Indian Adoption Project was to stimulate the adoption of American Indian children on a nationwide basis," he wrote. By declaring these "transracial" adoptions successful, Fanshel's work inspired hundreds of child welfare agencies in many states to pursue Indian adoptions. In Minnesota in the early 1970s, for instance, nearly 1 in 4 Native American babies under the age of 1 were put up for adoption, overwhelmingly in white homes, according to a 1997 article in the Journal of Multicultural Social Work.

Today, 23 years after the passage of the Indian Child Welfare Act, problems persist. For instance, a 1999 Nebraska study found that "clear and convincing evidence" for placing children outside their homes was absent from records 78 percent of the time. A study last year in North Dakota found "serious deficiencies" in about 50 percent of the notices relating to potential out-of-home placements sent to tribes and parents.

Meanwhile, tribes that want to provide foster-care services cannot get direct federal payments under the law; instead, they have to arrange transfers from states, a process often fraught with difficulties, according to Terry Cross, executive director of the Indian Child Welfare Association in Portland, Ore.

Frank Petersen, 48, a grant writer with the Quinault Indian Nation in northwest Washington state, can't forget being placed in foster care at 12, and seeing two sisters and one brother adopted. His family had gone to a fair in Seattle and his mother's purse had been stolen at the bus station later that day. Taking money from her pocket, she sent the children back on a bus to their aunt in a town near the reservation with a request to send the money for her bus fare as soon as possible.

Emotional scars

A neighbor called to report the children as "abandoned." Social services retrieved them before their mother could get home, and distributed them among three white families. "They thought they were providing us with a better environment and a chance to grow up and be white, but they destroyed my family," Petersen said.

You don't ever get over the emotional impact from an adoption, said White Hawk, who lives just outside Madison, Wis. But healing is still possible, she believes. In the past year, she has established a grass-roots group, First Nations Orphan Association, dedicated to helping people who were adopted or placed in foster care find their birth families.

This October, White Hawk has arranged a powwow on the Menominee Nation reservation in Keshena, Wis., for children removed from their Indian families years ago and for the families who lost them. Indian spiritual leaders have written a special song for the occasion.

"I'm hoping this will help people, like me, who didn't know who we were, who didn't know our centers, until we came home," White Hawk said.


Found at:
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/metro/chicago/article/0,2669,ART-51625,FF.html

Kaylara

[Tigerwallah]

I am 1/4 Native. My father biological father was half Native half French, but was raised on a reservation with his mother. Another twist to the story - I was adopted, and the gov't and adoption agency convieniently left the Native American off of my birth records for two reasons - first I looked white, why ruin my chances of being adopted by a nice white couple? And by law, a Native American who is adopted has an open file.
I used to dress like a Native when I was younger. I once told my grandmother that I felt like I was a Native American - even though I was blond haired and blue eyed. When I was 22 my biological mother found me and told me about my father's heritage. I was pretty angry for a while that the system lied about me.

[Earth Walker]

There has been many abuses towards First Nations peoples
in British Columbia. Ed John, a native, was appointed to
the NDP cabinet as minister for aboriginal families/children.
It has been revealed by a number of natives that John is/was
involved in pedophilia and drugs.
These people have been vocal on this issue...but Premier
Dosanjh has gotten the B.C. Supreme Court to issue a gag
order and a lawsuit was filed against 8 complainants.
So now the public knows the gov't is hiding something. :mad:

This is why I speak out so strongly against christianity, it is
nothing but destructive period!
Besides, it is a well known fact that the kiddie diddlers are
christians...1st United Church, Anglican, Catholic, and others.
I don't know if something like this has happened in the U.S.


So you're scared and you're thinking
That maybe we ain't that young anymore
Show a little faith, there's magic in the night.
---Bruce Springsteen - "Thunder Road"

[Kaylara]

While I am against what Christianity has become at the hands of a few sick individuals, I cannot say that I fight against it... I fight against stagnation, against status quo, but I also fight for those who want to stay staus quo. That is their right, and I will defend it until my last breath. I think that that statement should be further defined Mystique, as I think that it may mislead some people. I am taking it as you being against the patriarchal, etc. etc. values that Christianity teaches... Could you expand that for me?

Kaylara

[Mariposa De La Luna]

I know Texas has laws against others adopting children of Native American heritage. The reservations are told first that there is a child for adoption and if they cannot find anyone to adopt them then they are available to other families. I don't know how old the laws are.

My heart broke when I read this article. That shouldn't have happened to any child of any race. :( it goes to show the govnm't doesn't always know whats good for us.

[Tigerwallah]

Originally posted by SAHM
I know Texas has laws against others adopting children of Native American heritage. The reservations are told first that there is a child for adoption and if they cannot find anyone to adopt them then they are available to other families. I don't know how old the laws are.

My heart broke when I read this article. That shouldn't have happened to any child of any race. :( it goes to show the govnm't doesn't always know whats good for us.

How can our gov't know what is good for us, when morons who shoot lions and kiss skulls in some weird male bonding session while seeking power are what makes up our gov't? These are not people who represent me. I didn't even get to choose them. The supream court did it for me. Unfortunately, it has been this way from the beginning of time. Our gov't was not formed on the idealistic platform of freedom of religion. It was based on the political platform of freedom from taxes, and freedom to be Catholic.

Overall, Mystique, I think that your country gets the rep for Native American Child abuse, but ours is infamous committing the most atrocities towards are natives, overall. I have noticed that we have similar, militant views on Christianity. I'm happy to have another spirit like me at the community. :D

[Earth Walker]

A good research on the history of christianity will show that it
does nothing but cause death and destruction, which is still
true today.
It has been that way ever since patriarchal armies came south
from Europe and destroyed matriarchal and indigenous
societies...the Near & Middle East...Asia...Africa...Australia,
Hawaii, Samoa, Guam, North/South America and elsewhere.
I will never accept christianity as a path, the "bible" was
copied from ancient matriarchal texts and adapted to men's
standards. If you read When God Was A Woman by Merlin
Stone, you will find that when patriarchy took over, they
allowed goddess worship for a short time....then they began
introducing gods as the son/lover of the Goddess....then as
patriarchy spread, the Goddess was banned and only male
gods were to be worshipped.

For more information on the ways patriarchy has created
misery, poverty, oppression, murder, etc., I recommend
reading the book: The War Against Women by Marilyn French.

Summit Books 1992 ISBN: 0-671-66157-4


It is not enough to say that we need a renewed relationship
to the feminine in our times.
What is needed is a relationship to the dark side of the feminine.
---Fred Gustafson

[Kaylara]

I agree completely Mystique, but I see that there are those out there who follow the Bible in a way that is not oppressive to spirit or others. Not all of Christianity buys what the bible says... Just trying to keep the peace here. While I do not agree with their views, they have the right to have them as long as they keep them to themselves. I understand that the culture that we are living in is patriarchal, which in my view is a path of death for a culture. But matriarchal society I think, would be just as oppressive, only the other way around. I think that the key here is Balance. When women and men have equal status, equal rights, etc., etc. we will be much better off as a society. I am a feminist, I admit, but I do not want female supremacy. I want balance.

Christianity is something that I can stomach in small doses. As a former Southern Baptist, I know how some of the most intolerant people can be. But we cannot sit back and say that our path is the correct path for everyone. Otherwise, we are doing the same thing that they are doing.

Just a thought...
Kaylara

[pagansoul]

The people in power make the rules. I myself believe that Jesus would not approve of people idolizing himself, but people do. He was a good man who has been used by others. There is nothing wrong with loving one another and following basic rules of society but the religion named after him has gone through the changes of time and leadership. It has been fragmented and amended, miss-translated and misshapened, misunderstood and misused. The bible is a book written by men and should be taken in the context of the time and place it was created.

People are capable of doing terrible things when they believe 'God is on their side' and the people in power always believe that 'God is on their side'. It's amazing how often God switches sides given how often the people in power change.

It's very hard to get the people in power to admitt they did something stupid or just plain wrong. We all know that history is often changed to cover up such things. Be thankful that it was something documented and there is living proof.

Move forward. Don't let anger eat away your soul. Worst things can and have been done to a people past, present and future. I don't want to cheapen the event but this one has a good ending. The program was stopped, the children have information on their families, their pain and suffering has been acknowledged, new better programs are in effect.

NOTE: The Australian goverment did this to their 'native people' also.

[Earth Walker]

Originally posted by Kaylara
I agree completely Mystique, but I see that there are those out there who follow the Bible in a way that is not oppressive to spirit or others. Not all of Christianity buys what the bible says... Just trying to keep the peace here. While I do not agree with their views, they have the right to have them as long as they keep them to themselves. I understand that the culture that we are living in is patriarchal, which in my view is a path of death for a culture. But matriarchal society I think, would be just as oppressive, only the other way around. I think that the key here is Balance. When women and men have equal status, equal rights, etc., etc. we will be much better off as a society. I am a feminist, I admit, but I do not want female supremacy. I want balance.

Christianity is something that I can stomach in small doses. As a former Southern Baptist, I know how some of the most intolerant people can be. But we cannot sit back and say that our path is the correct path for everyone. Otherwise, we are doing the same thing that they are doing.

Just a thought...
Kaylara


Matriarchal societies were never oppressive to men, both
genders were equal, and people lived in harmony with nature.
In witchcraft, the most important cornerstone philosphy is a
Trinity, not a duality. This alone colors everything explaining life.
Since we have no duality, there is no concept of "apartness"
separating female-male, black-white, good-evil. The Trinity
multiplies into three times three, as in the Nine Muses, and from
then on explodes into the diversity of nature, accepting the
DIFFERENT as a religious concept.
This means there is no division between body and soul. One is
not despised and the other glorified. There is no division of the
sexes; both come from the same source, the Mother. There is no
division of spiritual and profane; all is related in the universe,
and none stands apart from nature. All is Nature.
The Life Force manifests in us, so it's never hopeless. But it
isn't always easy to tune into ourselves, especially when we are
driven by meaningless work, bored to death by repetition and
deprived of living teachers who can pass on information about
how to get what we want while we're alive and how to seek
truth in harmony with others. This excludes the teachings of the
"Our god has the answer and all others are evil" variety, as we
find coming from Judeo-Christianity, Islam, Krishna, Buddhism,
Mormonism, Moonies and gurus. Does this worry the Goddess
Religionist? Only to the extent that these patriarchal religions may gain the political power to outlaw the others.
Why would "respectable" religions be obsessed with the hatred
of women or the hatred of anybody? I don't know.
It only makes sense if you see it as a militaristic effort to set up
a social system in which women are controlled, with no choice on
abortion, no jobs for equal pay. Sound familiar? When women
are controlled, the empire is controlled. Women's product is
citizens. Consumers. Lovers.
When pastoral tribes from the north first started coming south to
what we know as Greece, they too had to deal with the culture
they found: high priestesses and temples dedicated to the
Triple Goddess(Isis, Diana and Hecate), sacred shrines, and
women in power. :eek:
For the first three hundred years, these newcomers to Greece
were assimilated by the Triple Goddess culture, Hera(meaning
courage), so much so, that the Greeks gave up their notion of
"marriage" as indecent.
It was all right until more of the same northern tribesmen started
to come down from the south side of the Danube, discovering
to their horror that their cousins wore jewelry and sometimes
women's clothing and were ruled by women. :eek: :eek: :eek:
The effort of cultural warfare became at this point a very
conscious campaign. Much to the surprise of the invading
patriarchs, they found that the female armies, which were
organized after the invasions, were more than a match for them,
so they had to resort to treacheries to defeat the Amazons!
Also, medical science would have people believe that the
phenomenon of transsexualism is 20th century...and nothing
could be further from the truth. The ancient matriarchal societies
were doing SRS, and were quite advanced for the time.
These transsexuals were revered as women, and they also
served as priestesses in the temples of the Goddess.
The last to do these surgeries were the Egyptians, before
Alexander the Great(the Pig) burned the libraries in Alexandria,
and destroyed the records...but some survived.:) and before
Male Pharoahs ruled Egypt!
Nothing can be more unnatural than life without the Mother.
However, patriarchy succeeded in selling the world the concept
that a father god created himself.(In Goddess Traditions, a self-
created male god is an unsupportable concept). Never in the
history of life has there been an instance of male giving birth to
anything, let alone a universe and its people. There has never
been an instance where humans issued from anywhere other
than a mother's womb. That is how all life works.
This is also why the naked female form is revered in witchcraft
as the Source. The Goddess, in statues, pictures and drawings
throughout herstory, is often shown pointing to Her genitals.
She is not being coquettish, but indicating the Source of Life.
Naked figurines such as this, found all over the world, have been
dismissed by archeologists as very minor parts of fertility cults,
lacking in importance. In most archaeological texts the female
religion is referred to as a "fertility cult," perhaps revealing the
attitudes held by the various contemporary religions that may
have influenced the writers. (They also say that we are sex-crazed fiends.??? :confused:)
But archaeological and mythological evidence of the veneration of
the female deity as creator and lawmaker of the universe, prophetess, provider of human destinies, inventor, healer,
hunter and valiant leader in battle suggests that the title "fertility cult" may be a gross oversimplification of a complex theological
structure.
Within descriptions of long-buried cities and temples, academic
authors wrote of the sexually active Goddess as "improper,"
"unbearably aggressive" or "embarrassingly void of morals,"
while male deities who raped or seduced legendary women or
nymphs were described as "playful," even admirably "virile."
The overt sexual nature of the Goddess, juxtaposed to Her sacred divinity, so confused one scholar that he finally settled
for the perplexing title, the Virgin-Harlot. The women who
followed the ancient sexual customs of the Goddess faith, known
in their own language as sacred or holy women, were repeatedly
referred to as "ritual prostitutes." This choice of words once again reveals a rather ethnocentric ethic, probably based on biblical
attitudes. Yet, using the term "prostitute" as a translation for the
title of women who were actually known as QADESH, meaning
holy, suggests a lack of comprehension of the very theological
and social structure the writers were attempting to describe
and explain.
The earliest representations of the Goddess portray Her as a
bird. She is the white dove, the wise owl, the vulture in Her
death aspect, the sacred heron of Aphrodite. Early Anatolian
findings interpreted the bird as signifying a Holy Spirit that gave
life, healed, and could be activated in people.
The dove seems to be the one religious symbol left virtually intact. Picasso's dove became a worldwide symbol for peace in
the 1960's, and the dove still represents the "Holy Ghost," left
almost totally devoid of personality. Even as the symbol of
Aphrodite, Goddess of Love, the dove has generally survived the
worst of patriarchy. (She is spread wide-winged on the Vatican's
ceilings). The dove was always sacred to Isis and Dianna.
The religion of the Goddess is joy-oriented, life-focused: a
celebration in music, dance, poetry, singing, and constantly in tune with the process of promoting Life. The religions which
destroyed us had to do something very different, because
otherwise there would be no reason for the people to change.
Even military controls were not as effective as had been thought.
Thus the concept of "sin," newly invented by patriarchy and
introduced with religious and military fervor, was reinforced by
the reversal of all the positive symbols of the Goddess into
negative ones(in the sense of "sinful," "bad," or "evil").
With the advent of militaristic patriarchal rule, the spiritual
leaders of the matriarchies were an awesome power which had to be dealt with. Priestesses of Athena, Artemis and Diana were
promptly hung from oak trees by their hair, with anvils tied around their ankles, to force them to renounce Rhea as Supreme
Goddess and accept the new male god (Zeus) as omnipotent.
Through tortures which have continued to the present day
(clitorectomy, electric shock, etc.), these patriarchal usurpers
perpetrated the most massive cultural and religious coup in the
history of the planet.
The original sin was matricide. The toppling of the matriarchies and the rape and murder of the mothers was, and still is, the
greatest of all sins. No purging of our culture has occurred since
the Inquisition, no public accounting for the sins of the "fathers."
A major contribution to the continuing hostility and alienation of
males is their deep core of guilt. Men continue to be guilty of
matricide. No amount of puraification will take that blemish away.
Matricide is punishable by eternal unhappiness and the Goddess
punishes in different ways. There isn't a heaven or hell someplace "out there;" we create both right here where we live.
The punishment for matricide is foul air, poisoned food,
ecological disasters (earthquakes, famines, hurricanes and drought). Mother is not happy, and She will not take this anymore. She has lots of time. Every hundred million years or so,
the entire earth gets reworked when the Queen decides that
this particular spaceship has to change. That is the law - Change. What does not change, dies, and even in death, continues to change.
Men harbor the constant, sneaking suspicion that they are wrong after all. As the day of the End nears, they feel their anxiety grow. Sadly, this anxiety is misdirected in their death
orientation, so that they cause the eating of their own young.
Young men were are used in aggression-expression, which is
supposed to solve problems. Kronos eats his own son -- the old
man drafts the young man to die in war. When nations are
convinced that the only solution to differences (usually economic)
is to kill other people,we obviously have nations led by men who
no longer think, and where the life force is no longer healthy.
A very important evolutionary note here regarding humans and
the other beings who share this planet with us: Every time the
male of a species begins to attack the female, that species is on
a suicide course. In fact, no male animal but the human attacks the female, and he does so with astonshing violence and regularity. Human males are therefore hurtling toward a final
retribution -- the extinction of their species and their planet -- a
course of self-destruction that began in earnest approximately
2,500 years ago.
For further reading, check out the following website:

http://www.danaanpress.com/alib/ffirst.html

Quoted from Z. Budapest & M. Stone.

Why fear ye the Dark Queen, eh men?
She is your renewer.
--Dion Fortune

[Earth Walker]

Originally posted by Tigerwallah


How can our gov't know what is good for us, when morons who shoot lions and kiss skulls in some weird male bonding session while seeking power are what makes up our gov't? These are not people who represent me. I didn't even get to choose them. The supream court did it for me. Unfortunately, it has been this way from the beginning of time. Our gov't was not formed on the idealistic platform of freedom of religion. It was based on the political platform of freedom from taxes, and freedom to be Catholic.

Overall, Mystique, I think that your country gets the rep for Native American Child abuse, but ours is infamous committing the most atrocities towards are natives, overall. I have noticed that we have similar, militant views on Christianity. I'm happy to have another spirit like me at the community. :D

Have you ever read the book: Bury My Heart At Wounded Knee,
by Dee Brown?
With that sordid history, and the current rampant racism and
hatemongering, there are times that I am ashamed to be white.
:o :o :o

Why fear ye the Dark Queen, oh men?
She is your renewer.
--Dion Fortune

[Kaylara]

Mystique...
*clap* *clap* *clap* *clap* *clap*
All I can say is wow, and thank you...

Kaylara

[Kaylara]

I have read the book, and many other books about the atrocities our race has committed. (I am currently reading a book about the Trail of Tears.) I can only make sure that I do not repeat those mistakes made by my ancestors. I can make sure that my offspring are brought up with values that reflect tolerence, and being "color-blind".

Kaylara

[Earth Walker]

One of the things I dislike about christianity is that they
equate EVERYTHING in terms of money. :mad:
If you watch the news and current events closely, you will
find that patriarchal religions worldwide have embraced
the FTAA, WTO, NAFTA, GATT.....but that is no surprise.
It has been that way ever since patriarchy was established,
destroy the entire planet for profit.
This is why we are experiencing a rapid growth in homelessness,
and people dying from hunger and disease, the fast growing
divide between the poor & the rich.

This is not the way the Goddess meant things to be.

:uzi: Patriarchy :smash:


Why fear ye the Dark Queen, oh men?
She is your renewer.
--Dion Fortune

[Tigerwallah]

Originally posted by Mystique


Have you ever read the book: Bury My Heart At Wounded Knee,
by Dee Brown?
With that sordid history, and the current rampant racism and
hatemongering, there are times that I am ashamed to be white.
:o :o :o

Why fear ye the Dark Queen, oh men?
She is your renewer.
--Dion Fortune

I have not read that book, but I will try to get a hold of it. I often am ashamed of the 3/4 of me that is white, as well. In fact, I find that much of humanity is so barbarious that I am often ashamed to be human. Next lifetime, I'm coming back as a cat.

[Celtic_Angel]

I'm going to scream! :mad: aaaaahhhhh!!! Ok, now I feel better. :D This is my fourth attempt at responding to this thread. This better work or I'll get mad again !!! :smash: :smash: :smash:

Ok, so I'm Catholic, as it states under my name :), but I get along better with most pagans due to some of my own personal beliefs. :rolleyes: I guess you could call me a solitary Catholic who lives a very Druidic life (I've discovered this last part over the last couple of months of study and trying to put a name to my way of life :D). And I can see, there is a lot of negative feelings toward Christians on this thread. Although I feel some of this has validity behind it, I feel the neccesity to express my Christian view of what happened. Christianity is a dominant religion and that has its drawbacks. There are a lot more bad apples to choose from, but there are some damn good ones too. Although I have nothing to do with what happened, I, being born to the same humanrace as the 'kiddie diddlers', apologize for what happened at their hands. The response that I have previously tried to send is in the following attachment.

With :heartthro and blessings to all!!!
C_A

[Celtic_Angel]

Originally posted by Tigerwallah


I have not read that book, but I will try to get a hold of it. I often am ashamed of the 3/4 of me that is white, as well. In fact, I find that much of humanity is so barbarious that I am often ashamed to be human. Next lifetime, I'm coming back as a cat.

I'm mostly white and I'm pretty damn proud of that blood too. On the same note, though mankind is in general pretty bad, I know that I am not. Therefore I am proud to have been given the gift of life as God saw fit to give me and not as anything else. Though...there are those times I wish I had a tail. ;) That will have to be one of my requests when I get to finally meet God. I've been quite patient. :D

[Celtic_Angel]

Originally posted by Mystique
One of the things I dislike about christianity is that they
equate EVERYTHING in terms of money. :mad:
If you watch the news and current events closely, you will
find that patriarchal religions worldwide have embraced
the FTAA, WTO, NAFTA, GATT.....but that is no surprise.
It has been that way ever since patriarchy was established,
destroy the entire planet for profit.
This is why we are experiencing a rapid growth in homelessness,
and people dying from hunger and disease, the fast growing
divide between the poor & the rich.

This is not the way the Goddess meant things to be.


Though I agree that mankind has grossly damaged the gift that has been given to us and that it probably doesn't make our Creator(s) happy, who are we to say how God (Gods, Goddess) meant things to be. If God truly is all knowing, of which I have no doubt, then He knew that this could, would happen. Yet, I like to think that that does not so much matter to Him as the lives of those who were, are, and will be good does. Though a thousand may curse in His name, He will still here the prayer of the one. Perhaps it is our duty to make sure that He, She, Them will forever have that one to hear. Then again, who knows what it is that He wants! :p

[bluecat]

Dear C_A,

We are not saying that all Christians are to blame, however there were many things done to convert the heathens or kill them that were contributed to by many of the Christian leaders of the time.

I am not sure if you were aware of one Lt. Col Chivington. He was the commander of the Colorado Militia who ordered the attack on a Cheyenne Indian reservation in Southern Colorado. Unfortunately, just like the problems with the youth and the media Christianity has had a number of less than shining moments. Then there were all of the missions to convert the heathens, by force if necessary.

Unfortunately, like Pagans, all most people remember is the bad press. While you are a wonderful person and an exception there is a great frustration among pagans because of false rumors and exaggerations that are told about us by the Christian Right. This depiction is not helped at all by a Hollywood obsession with painting us in the worst possible light because it's good box office.

When Christians are openly painted in a bad light many of them yell and scream like crazy, instead of policing themselves they cry out that they are being picked on.

I am not saying that we don't have our own bad apples and weirdos, we have them just as much as anyone else does, but they are pointed out as examples of us. A lot of the attitudes towards Native Americans came from incitement by good loving Christians. I am not saying ALL Christians were this way, just a lot of them who used their position for power.

The everyday Christians were doing what they believed because it was what they were taught to believe by their church and their government. Many of the hierarchy of the church knew that it was profitable, NOT ALL, but many. There were many good people in Church leadership positions but they were "quieted" one way or another.

C_A, please don't feel that you are being targeted or your belief, the frustration is very high and the real target of the rants you may see are really targeted towards those who abuse and not towards John and Jane Christian, although it may seem that way. Like I said earlier, John and Jane were taught from a very early age how things were supposed to be.

It's not just Native Americans; Jews, Islamic Peoples, anyone who did not fit their pattern were the target. We have Catholics and Protestants fighting each other and they are both Christians. we also have "Witch Wars". People are not immune to acting a certain way. As humans we are always the weakest link in the chain. You can have all of the most wonderful ideas and ideals in the Universe and as soon as you throw people in the mix, you have a problem. This also extends to other anthropoids, such as chimpanzees.

I know this is long and I am rambling, but I just wanted to tell you that it is not as personal as it appears. Even if the person who makes the statement thinks it is.

You are a loved and valuable asset to this community; believe me frustration is a two way street. A lot of folks, like myself who have studied Native Americans as a profession (I am only short of Thesis for my Anthro MA) understand that our government has a lot to be ashamed of and a great deal of it was done by using "The Name of God" as a convenient crutch.

Bless You and All That You Are.

Blue

[moonmagick4]

Wow!!I totally see where you are coming from on this one Blue!!Great piece of work!!

[Yvonne Belisle]

C_A I've seen you with a tail it's in my costume box. Speaking as a pagan who knows you I know that you are not among the few diviants that make it bad for the rest of you. I think people here love you with or without your tail and I am glad you are here to learn more about the careful blending of your path and to help us as we journey along ours. I miss you and wanted everyone to know it. You're a great person and a wonderful asset to us all.

[Celtic_Angel]

LOL... Oh, I really hope I didn't sound like I took it too personally!!! :eek: Trust me, I only felt that I had to make some kind of defense for my religion, though what they did was wrong no matter what. You are right though Bluecat, the media has not helped in portaying a good pictures for pagans. :( If anyone here has seen Stigmata, some of my oinions resemble those mad eby the movie. The people of my religion have made some grevious offenses to mankind and I hope that they receive their due on the of judgement before God. What I was trying to get across is that Christians haven't been the only oppressors in history, though they are some of the latest. Anyways, thank you guys! I know that I am well loved here. :) That love is mutual! :heartthro If I thought otherwise, I wouldn't spill my heart out here the way I do. Perhaps one day, those of all religions will all be able to sit and laugh and drink lemonade together. :sunny: Until then... us Christian renegades will have to maitain communication with the rest of the world to keep our religion from becoming to ignorant. :p Thanks again friends! :) I miss you too Yvonne and when ! come to visit you...hehehe...I get to raid the costume box again! :D

Love and blessings!!!

C_A

[bluecat]

:)

Blue

[idusty88]

Originally posted by Mystique
This is why I speak out so strongly against christianity, it is
nothing but destructive period!
I make a distinction between the christian path and the christian church.
As a spiritual path christianity is as valid as any other. Christ's teachings are valuable.
The christian church is another matter entirely. IMO ALL organized religion is a very bad thing. One of the primary reasons I am pagan is because the accent is on the individual.

[Tigerwallah]

Originally posted by idusty88

I make a distinction between the christian path and the christian church.
As a spiritual path christianity is as valid as any other. Christ's teachings are valuable.
The christian church is another matter entirely. IMO ALL organized religion is a very bad thing. One of the primary reasons I am pagan is because the accent is on the individual.

Absolutely!!! I was once a Catholic, and fell away hard. Most of that was from not being able to ask certain questions, not being able to think for myself, and hating the herd mentality of an organized religion. I think it is easy for an organized religion to become corrupt for the reason that it does not allow the follower to question it. A few individuals are really given an tempting opportunity to abuse power, and write their own laws and doctrine. In the past many laws that were supposedly from God, were actually just laws that those in charge wanted the public to observe for their own good or for the good of the church - like no meat on Fridays during lent. This came about during the first Vatican Council. It was for no humanitarian reasons. Red meat was very expensive at the time, and the church wanted it's followers to abstain and donate the money they would have spent on meat. Fish is now way more expensive, but they have not gotten around to changing the rule. Besides, the real reason has been forgotten, and the public looks on it as this altruistic sacrifice. Go figure.

Celtic Angel, I'm glad that you understand that we fight against the church, not the follower. I went through Catholic hell, and believe that I have the right to trash it from my own experiences. The church beats down those of us who ask questions and rock the boat. Well, tries to, anyway.

[Celtic_Angel]

Originally posted by Tigerwallah
Celtic Angel, I'm glad that you understand that we fight against the church, not the follower. I went through Catholic hell, and believe that I have the right to trash it from my own experiences. The church beats down those of us who ask questions and rock the boat. Well, tries to, anyway.

I fear that you and I have had different dealings with the Catholic church my friend. :( My Earliest childhood memories of the Roman Catholic Chruch are incredibly good ones! :) I grew being taught that no question was to go unasked and the Fathers of my church, always tolerant of a little girl, were always willing to give me an answer, stating that it was to the best of their knowledge that this answer came and that I should also seek the same answers for myself if I wished to. They said it was credit to God that one should use the brain and intelligence that He gave us by questioning Him and seeking answers on our own. I too believe this and I live by this. My Dad also likes to take me to an abbet in Oceanside and the monks there too are good people who are willing to discuss matters with every day people and willing to admitt that they may be wrong. It is these memories that I have that have kept me from believing that the Church is all bad.

Later on my parents joined a new church and frankly that church deserves the hand of God to smack them around. They are ingnorant in the ways of the Lord and in my eyes have no right to preach the word of God. They are nothing more than hypocrites that wished to steal away my childhood to make me more like them. There are a few within their order, my father and Elizabeth, who are good people and who have made an effort to destroy some of the ignorance, but I fear that it is too late for that church.

Tigerwallah, I am sorry that you only exprienced the bad side of the Catholic church and I honor your opinion as your own to make. I wish more people had childhhood experiences like mine, with whatever religion, to look back on. I was lucky. I hope that you do not take offense if I say, "God bless you", for it is meant with greatest respect on my part.

C_A

[Tigerwallah]

Originally posted by Celtic_Angel


I fear that you and I have had different dealings with the Catholic church my friend. :( My Earliest childhood memories of the Roman Catholic Chruch are incredibly good ones! :) I grew being taught that no question was to go unasked and the Fathers of my church, always tolerant of a little girl, were always willing to give me an answer, stating that it was to the best of their knowledge that this answer came and that I should also seek the same answers for myself if I wished to. They said it was credit to God that one should use the brain and intelligence that He gave us by questioning Him and seeking answers on our own. I too believe this and I live by this. My Dad also likes to take me to an abbet in Oceanside and the monks there too are good people who are willing to discuss matters with every day people and willing to admitt that they may be wrong. It is these memories that I have that have kept me from believing that the Church is all bad.

Later on my parents joined a new church and frankly that church deserves the hand of God to smack them around. They are ingnorant in the ways of the Lord and in my eyes have no right to preach the word of God. They are nothing more than hypocrites that wished to steal away my childhood to make me more like them. There are a few within their order, my father and Elizabeth, who are good people and who have made an effort to destroy some of the ignorance, but I fear that it is too late for that church.

Tigerwallah, I am sorry that you only exprienced the bad side of the Catholic church and I honor your opinion as your own to make. I wish more people had childhhood experiences like mine, with whatever religion, to look back on. I was lucky. I hope that you do not take offense if I say, "God bless you", for it is meant with greatest respect on my part.

C_A

I am glad to hear of a good experience with the church. Deep down, I believe that what everyone believes is the right thing for them at the time they believe it. I doubt that much would have changed in my belief system had things been different. Were the priests in the first church you attended Jesuit (sp?) I hear that they are much more liberal and tolerant. I don't know what order the priests in my church/school were, but they were neither tolerant nor liberal. My questions were swiftly met with the story of doubting Thomas - which to this day I have completely blanked on because I shut it out so many times. When I questioned the latter virginity of Mary, it was met with a near backhand from my religion teacher - I was probably in 7th grade. Did the whole 12 years of Catholic School thing. I was forced to make my confirmation after telling my pastor and parents that I had no faith and was in no way ready to make that kind of commitment. After a heated discussion with him and the folks, I relented, but did not make any of the verbal oaths at the time of confirmation. In high school, I had a friend who was a little butch. Two nuns "hit on" her. And I won't even get into the fiasco that took place at the mandatory retreats. Yeesh. I am so glad that your experiences were different. I believe that Christianity is a little like Communism - a wonderful idea that just does not translate well to practice because of the greedy and power hungry who represent themselves while cloaking their deads under guise of "the church."

I thank you for your blessings, and am very honored that you bestowed them upon me. May I return them and say, May you always know peace, and Sekhmet keep you well.

[Armitage]

I think all this sums up to my observation that in all groups there are good and bad people. They tend to stick around one another for different reasons, so while one person might run into the creeps, another might have a wonderful experience.
Anywho, I had a point, and it was that while your own experience might be the strongest view you have, don't forget that the diversity of people in *any* large group makes it hard to pin down any one stereotype. After all, they are just stereotypes.
*not sure if she's making sense or repeating herself silly*

[Eyesofthewolf]

Hi everyone..

I was just reading through the posts here.. I have to say that is good to see such honesty, and yet so little real disagreements on the subject.

The American Indian issue is close to my heart. I have been working on an educational site since 94 so people of all races know the truths about the history, life, and beliefs of the American Indians.. Which it is great when college students and teachers have e-mailed me letting me know they are using the information for students, essays, etc..

I am part Lenni Lenape also known as the Delaware Indian. My family on the east coast even though they have black hair and dark skin deny any part of being Indian. It used to really bother me that they did this. Now I got over it, I know the truth and so will my son, who is now a true American "Mut" LOL.. Me being Indian, Italian and Scots/english. And my son's father being Mexican, Pueblo Indian and White. LOL What a mix.

I personally think more people need to know the truth, instead of what movies and or novels depict American Indian people to be. I have a hard time also with the Christian Indians that look down upon the Indian people who still follow their ancestral beliefs.


I guess my point to all of this is: Just keep reading, know the truth, help out when you can. And be true to yourself no matter what nationality you are.. And please never say that you are ashamed to be any race. Because there is good and bad in every race. I live through that with my family everyday.. it is better to just say I am who I am.. just deal with it or go away..

=)

thanks everyone for posting a forum like this.. I'll stop babbling now.. LOL


Just a note: Some great books out there is Bury my Heart at Wounded Knee, Trail of Tears, 500 Nations (this is a must read), and The way of my grandmothers.
If you are looking for some great information these books will fulfill it..


Blessed Be..

Jenn.. Eyesofthewolf

[Earth Walker]

Originally posted by Eyesofthewolf
Hi everyone..

I was just reading through the posts here.. I have to say that is good to see such honesty, and yet so little real disagreements on the subject.

The American Indian issue is close to my heart. I have been working on an educational site since 94 so people of all races know the truths about the history, life, and beliefs of the American Indians.. Which it is great when college students and teachers have e-mailed me letting me know they are using the information for students, essays, etc..

I am part Lenni Lenape also known as the Delaware Indian. My family on the east coast even though they have black hair and dark skin deny any part of being Indian. It used to really bother me that they did this. Now I got over it, I know the truth and so will my son, who is now a true American "Mut" LOL.. Me being Indian, Italian and Scots/english. And my son's father being Mexican, Pueblo Indian and White. LOL What a mix.

I personally think more people need to know the truth, instead of what movies and or novels depict American Indian people to be. I have a hard time also with the Christian Indians that look down upon the Indian people who still follow their ancestral beliefs.


I guess my point to all of this is: Just keep reading, know the truth, help out when you can. And be true to yourself no matter what nationality you are.. And please never say that you are ashamed to be any race. Because there is good and bad in every race. I live through that with my family everyday.. it is better to just say I am who I am.. just deal with it or go away..

=)

thanks everyone for posting a forum like this.. I'll stop babbling now.. LOL


Just a note: Some great books out there is Bury my Heart at Wounded Knee, Trail of Tears, 500 Nations (this is a must read), and The way of my grandmothers.
If you are looking for some great information these books will fulfill it..


Blessed Be..

Jenn.. Eyesofthewolf



This is one of the reasons I dislike christianity so much, it has
done so much to destroy indigenous cultures worldwide.
We have "christian natives" in B.C. who look down their noses
at everyone else....other cultures christianity destroyed; the
aboriginies in Australia, India, Africa, Hawaii, Guam, Samoa,
and many more. I do not attack christians individually, but
generally; and the same goes for men....It is the "bible" and
it's concepts that ruin people's lives, the christians I talk to
are obsessed with and afraid of death. Why? :confused:
I know of no Pagan that has an obsession/fear of death. :)
I have read Bury My Heart At Wounded Knee.
Thank you for the other titles. I wiil order them.

[Kaylara]

Bluecat (I believe) was refering to the Sand Creek Massacre. I have found some good information on this subject (I had to do a project on it a few years ago.) And I submit it now for your knowledge. I believe that this massacre was caused by the hatred of one man for our native american brothers and sisters, and was helped along by the climate of the time in which it took place. Manifest Destiny was only one of many ideas that caused the destruction of people around the world. It is our duty to make sure that we do not allow the Native Americans to suffer any more at the hand of our government, and to make sure that the government knows that this kind of crap is not acceptable!

http://www.nps.gov/planning/sand/history.pdf
http://www.nps.gov/planning/sand/history.htm
http://www.nps.gov/planning/sand/about.htm


Kaylara

[Celtic_Angel]

Tigerwallah,

The church that I have such good memories of is indeed Roman Catholic. Like I said, I was extremely lucky! :)

I don't believe in God the way that I do though because they told me too. I spent several rebelling against organized religion myself, until I realized that while I may not need it, there are others that do. :( That was a hard lesson. I believe in God in the way that I do, simply because something inside me tells me that this is right for me. If you read other posts of mine, you'll see that my belief system is a little different than most Catholics though. :rolleyes: Such is life. There is a path right for everyone and I encourage people to seek it, not to just be content with family tradition or habit.

In response to Mystique,

I'm not afraid of death. Perhaps there is only one chance at life that is granted to us. I know that I'm a good person, so I will go to whatever heaven God has planned for me. I don't really believe that there is only one chance at life though. A human lives but for such a short time and with the intelligence given to us, it seems a waste to have but a brief moment to satisfy our thirst for knowledge. There are times when it seems to me that I have a very old soul. When memories of times past play with my dreams or I meet people for the frist time, knowing that I've known them before. I don't fear death, because I like to think that I am just moving on to the next lesson that God has planned for me. As you can see, though raised with roman Catholics, I have come up with some of my own beliefs. Either that or I'm partially insane and I wouldn't be the first to rule that out. :D

I've got to eat now. The baby's kicking. :D I love this place place. Mol has indeed created an incredible cyber universe if we can indeed get a chance to discuss openly such things.

Love you all!
C_A

[OKmagnolia]

It just sickens me when I hear of things like this that our goverment has done to the native americans. It was not enough to ruthlessly slaughter them for so many years, but to come back and take their children away just because they are native. and not only that I am 13/32 cherokee and my tribe is not even nationally regoniced because my ancestors escaped from the trail of tears. A person just has to wonder when the liberty and justice for ALL is going to be enforced.

[Boogins]

Similar things happened in Canada, and continued until into the early sixties at least. I was taken from my native mother my my white father to be raised "properly".

There's a word for people like that, but you don't use it on family forums.

[Old Witch]

It's a good thing my Mama and Daddy were never on a reservation.......

[magicbabs]

I enjoyed reading these threads. I am now sitting in a sacred valley in NOrth Georgia. I have a bead shop...the Native American spirits love me being here....they know I appreciate the land and the heritage (which is my own).

The government has never really helped....the government is killing our trees...

and now Habitat for Humanity is tearing down acres of trees in Atlanta. They were given a free design from a company called Village Habitat Design....and they still want to tear down the trees...my husband is video taping the event today....

Habitat for Humanity is supposed to meet with the community to design housing...despite their efforts...the community has lost.

I saw Habitat for Humanity as the last out post of caring...

Being Native - I expect to be screwed by the government...I never expected them to turn.

Humm....What would Jesus do
What would Goddess do
What would Ghandi do...

I personally would smack each one on the head...

Oh there I go on a soap box again.

[magicbabs]

I am sitting in the Nacoochee Valley. This is where the main batch of indians were sent to Oklahoma....lots of death...lots of pain....lots of nasty things happened.

Today the sun is shining...the humming birds are here...a large Red Tail Hawk just flew over....

Life is good...the Native Americans are trying to get over the government...trying to live in a clear clean fresh future...

African Americans are leaving their pain behind from slavery....the south is changing..

the south for most of its parts is becoming Diverse....

It has needed Diverstiy training for a LONG time..

Life is good....

Wahanchanka loves everyone.....whhhoooo hooooo

Babs

[Pesha]

Having read this thread with interest, I realise that this same thing of forced removal and adoption also happened in Australia. The Aborininals hwere back in the 50's taken from their homes and given to white xian familes to raise. A way of forced assimilation. Alot of the lan that belonged to the various tribs was also siezed from them and taken for the government to hold and use as they would. Now years later, the Austrailian governement has been trying to fix what was done. While I was there 5 years ago, alot of the shops had Apology books for people to sign and say they were sorry. The government has givne some of the land back. But alot of it was developed and is now used by the gneral public.

In my mind I cannot understand why anyone can quote the bible and then do something like what has been done here and in other places. What does colour or ehthnicy have to do with raiing children. We are not a xian world, nor a white world. But a myriade of faiths and races all coming together to make it all work. Or at the very least trying to make it work. The Sorry books were signed by folks who had no idea what really went on. Lot of good a book of apologies does when you have whiped out a persons ethnic and religious heritage. Sighs in a perfect world this could not happen.........there will never be a perfect world. for man/womankind is an imperfect species. Ah well off my soapbox for now.

BB
DS.

[Lady MoonWater]

I believe that my partner would be interested in this post so I am bumping it up so she can read it. :)

Blessed Be!
Lady MoonWater