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childofbast
July 9th, 2008, 12:27 PM
Do any of you know of any resources that discuss how the modern Irish, Scottish, etc view Celtic Recon?

Thanks,
Melanie

childofbast
July 9th, 2008, 12:47 PM
One of my lj friends just recently posted something about Celtic Recons and he said "CRP is american, completely and utterly, and is rejected by 99.9999% of folks who grew up in celtic countries. Those people find CRP laughable, or offensive, depending on the day."

It made me curious as to what they really think.

~Melanie

patch
July 9th, 2008, 01:31 PM
From hearing these peoples opinions, I 'd draw this conclusion:

CR's are met with suspiscion. Because for every one serious recon, you get three 'OMG FAERIES AND THE GREEN MAN!!!' culture rapists.

I think these people are disliked, but actual recons would not be met with such anumosity.

_Banbha_
July 9th, 2008, 06:26 PM
One of my lj friends just recently posted something about Celtic Recons and he said "CRP is american, completely and utterly, and is rejected by 99.9999% of folks who grew up in celtic countries. Those people find CRP laughable, or offensive, depending on the day."

It made me curious as to what they really think.

~Melanie

I doubt any percentage even remotely close to 99.9999% of people even know about CRP's (or CR for that matter) existence, so the comment itself is suspect because of the built-in bias.

The use of CRP is interesting in this context. I've heard some proponents of CRP say it is a purely Anglo-American creation that has little to do with living "Celtic" cultures. [emphasis on "Anglo" mine and Anglo is openly embraced by those who use the term CRP as far as I've seen lately.] So it does sound like it's different and distinct from Celtic Reconstructionism (CR) in that. But maybe it was just this person.

Celtic Reconstructionism (CR) is an American creation but with input from the extant living cultures from it's inception. This has been very much a part of my living experience and culture; and I wouldn't, and really couldn't, have it any other way. I haven't experienced hostility or contempt from someone in a "Celtic" country/culture in person. I'm not a public spokesperson for (or senior in) CR...far from it; but I am both Irish and American (sans hyphen) and I think it gives me some personal perspective. :)

Seren_
July 9th, 2008, 06:56 PM
I haven't heard much at all from people living in the extant Celtic cultures and what they think about CR. I've heard plenty from Americans who think they know what these people think about CR, however.

Seren is a CR from Scotland, she could probably tell ya how the feelings are over there. But from what I hear, it's not a very big or popular movement across the pond.

Oooooo, this is a good topic!

I live in Scotland but I'm not Scottish myself - I'm English. I studied at uni here in Scotland, though, and I married a Scot, and then we moved back up here. I currently live in a nominally Gaelic-speaking area on the edge of the Highlands, so I have a variety of perspectives, I guess...

CR isn't a big movement over here. Asatru/heathenism generally has a lot of acceptance within the wider pagan community, but for some reason CR seems to have a stigma attached to it within the UK because they seem to think we're living in the past...I guess it's because Asatru is seen as more of a living tradition now, rather than reconstructionist.

I'm not an out and proud sort of person, really - my close personal friends know my beliefs but I hesitate to mention it to my husband's friends up here because I don't want to be seen as an interloper, if that makes sense. Sometimes things crop up in conversation where I weigh in on the subject, but I don't run around proclaiming my paganess or Celtic/Scottish Reconstructioness...Perhaps that's my own paranoia more than anything (because I've never experienced overt anti-English sentiment, barring one occasion, for which I received an unreserved apology later on), but certainly I've seen and heard how many people view Americans in particular over here, and it's not complimentary - and I can see why to a certain extent. You can spot an American tourist a mile off, judging by the amount of tartan they're wearing, and to be honest I've smirked on occasion myself...I can only hope (when I'm particularly bothered about what other people think...) that I'm not viewed in the same light...But a bunch of (typically) Americans turning up and claiming to be 'Celtic Reconstructionists'? I can see how that would/could be received by some, and that causes me to hesitate as well, I guess.

In general it's the basic lack of understanding that rankles. A lot of my husband's friends are heavily involved in the preservation and continuation of Gaelic culture, and I've had a lot of interesting and very political conversations with them. In that sense, they're what many would call tcheuchters...you could loosely call them cultural snobs: uberCelts. But 'Scottishness' and 'Celticness' are very much a political label over here, in view of the political situation and all....

A lot of the time it's seen that Scotland=Celtic, but really, technically, it only applies to those who have Gaelic because 'Celtic' is a linguistic term. My husband's family (for example) preserve a lot of the Gaelic traditions but have no Gaelic, really, so there's a grey area; they're certainly more Gaelic/Celtic than I am, in terms of my cultural upbringing, but then academically it could be argued that I have a better understanding of that sort of thing...Ultimately, I'm not big enough or ugly enough to stick my oar in on that one, so I quietly go about my business and trust that the gods understand, if people don't. And stick my oar in only when I'm absolutely sure I'm right...

Seren_
July 9th, 2008, 07:01 PM
I doubt any percentage even remotely close to 99.9999% of people even know about CRP's (or CR for that matter) existence, so the comment itself is suspect because of the built-in bias.

The use of CRP is interesting in this context. I've heard some proponents of CRP say it is a purely Anglo-American creation that has little to do with living "Celtic" cultures. [emphasis on "Anglo" mine and Anglo is openly embraced by those who use the term CRP as far as I've seen lately.] So it does sound like it's different and distinct from Celtic Reconstructionism (CR) in that. But maybe it was just this person.

Celtic Reconstructionism (CR) is an American creation but with input from the extant living cultures from it's inception. This has been very much a part of my living experience and culture; and I wouldn't, and really couldn't, have it any other way. I haven't experienced hostility or contempt from someone in a "Celtic" country/culture in person. I'm not a public spokesperson for (or senior in) CR...far from it; but I am both Irish and American (sans hyphen) and I think it gives me some personal perspective. :)

True that; some people like to tout CR as the preserve of Anglo-America, but it simply isn't true. Now, anyway. It may have had its inception in America, but to ignore the importance of the diaspora (i.e. Celtic cultures transplanted elsewhere) in particular, is misguided at the least.

_Banbha_
July 9th, 2008, 08:16 PM
True that; some people like to tout CR as the preserve of Anglo-America, but it simply isn't true. Now, anyway. It may have had its inception in America, but to ignore the importance of the diaspora (i.e. Celtic cultures transplanted elsewhere) in particular, is misguided at the least.

Yeah....

<---- ^ Not an Anglo^ ---->

I'm not one to wear my CR beliefs on my sleeve either; I'll discuss it when in context of a conversation. I don't like religious discussions much and will not start one. But the same things that would interest a Celtic Reconstructionist, and they are not nearly in majority religion-specific things, interested me long before I ever heard of Celtic Reconstructionism. It hasn't changed me in any way to use the label (which in turn seems to put me in minority within CR); but I have felt some great benefits through association all the same. :)

I'm so lucky to avoid being mistaken for an American where ever I go, even by other Americans. :hehehe:

childofbast
July 10th, 2008, 12:36 AM
I like the conversation we're having. It's helpful.

The poster also compared CR - even if it's Americans with Celtic heritage - to white people "playing Indian." I personally think it's a really poor comparison...

I have Irish and Scottish heritage. I understand that I will never be Irish, but there is an Irish community that is very much alive in Upstate NY. I feel very connected to it. I'm definitly interested in modernizing old Celtic practices, and starting with local Celtic celebrations, like the Great American Irish Festival, is a great start, in my pinion. It allows people who may never see Ireland to be exposed to some Irish language lessons, Irish lore, music, dancing, and such.

I practice neo-Druidry through ADF, but I have recon leanings. I don't really talk about that to people outside of the Pagan community, though. And even within the Pagan community, not many people know what CR is.

~Melanie

~Melanie

Seren_
July 10th, 2008, 03:19 AM
I should add that most people really don't give a damn - my first reply seems a little overly negative, but I was replying with the more conservative types in mind ;)

odubhain
July 10th, 2008, 09:04 AM
I like the conversation we're having. It's helpful.

The poster also compared CR - even if it's Americans with Celtic heritage - to white people "playing Indian." I personally think it's a really poor comparison...

I have Irish and Scottish heritage. I understand that I will never be Irish, but there is an Irish community that is very much alive in Upstate NY. I feel very connected to it. I'm definitly interested in modernizing old Celtic practices, and starting with local Celtic celebrations, like the Great American Irish Festival, is a great start, in my pinion. It allows people who may never see Ireland to be exposed to some Irish language lessons, Irish lore, music, dancing, and such.

I practice neo-Druidry through ADF, but I have recon leanings. I don't really talk about that to people outside of the Pagan community, though. And even within the Pagan community, not many people know what CR is.

~Melanie

I agree about the connections. I'm leaving this morning to attend the Grandfather Mountain Highland Games in North Carolina. This area was heavily settled by Scots following the Battle of Culloden and the Highland clearances.

http://tinyurl.com/6rnm3y

It has one of the largest gatherings for Gaelic culture in the world.

http://www.gmhg.org/events.htm

Tonight the clans will gather as their names are announced in a torchlight ceremony on MacRae Meadows. It's going to be a wonderful four days of Gaelic culture mixed with American heritage and hospitality.

Here's such a gathering possibly near you (if you're in North America) for this month:

http://www.usscots.com/events/dates/july.html

These are a mix of Celtic, Scottish and Irish gatherings/celebrations.

Searles O'Dubhain

skilly-nilly
July 10th, 2008, 11:03 AM
Do any of you know of any resources that discuss how the modern Irish, Scottish, etc view Celtic Recon?

Thanks,
Melanie


But from what I hear, it's not a very big or popular movement across the pond.

When you think of the huge numbers of people who are Anglo and Amero descendants of the various Celtic cultures, it's not a "very big or popular movement" anywhere :weirdsmil

Percentage-wise, not very many people are Pagans. Of them, few are ReConstructionists. So if you walked up the the 'person on the street' anywhere, ze would likely have no or an uninformed and likely negative opinion of CRC.

In the modern Celtic countries, there is the additional issue of cultural and linguistic preservation that would definitely sour the attitude of a native of that country being approached by someone that ze would perceive as 'not-a-native' particularly if they started preaching a "return to the Old Ways".

Seren_
July 10th, 2008, 11:49 AM
When you think of the huge numbers of people who are Anglo and Amero descendants of the various Celtic cultures, it's not a "very big or popular movement" anywhere :weirdsmil

Percentage-wise, not very many people are Pagans. Of them, few are ReConstructionists. So if you walked up the the 'person on the street' anywhere, ze would likely have no or an uninformed and likely negative opinion of CRC.

In the modern Celtic countries, there is the additional issue of cultural and linguistic preservation that would definitely sour the attitude of a native of that country being approached by someone that ze would perceive as 'not-a-native' particularly if they started preaching a "return to the Old Ways".

Well said :uhhuhuh:

_Banbha_
July 10th, 2008, 10:30 PM
When you think of the huge numbers of people who are Anglo and Amero descendants of the various Celtic cultures, it's not a "very big or popular movement" anywhere :weirdsmil

Percentage-wise, not very many people are Pagans. Of them, few are ReConstructionists. So if you walked up the the 'person on the street' anywhere, ze would likely have no or an uninformed and likely negative opinion of CRC.

In the modern Celtic countries, there is the additional issue of cultural and linguistic preservation that would definitely sour the attitude of a native of that country being approached by someone that ze would perceive as 'not-a-native' particularly if they started preaching a "return to the Old Ways".


Truth (and lol @ American "Celtic" Pagan preachers).

I was hoping most CR's (and those of similar Recontructionist paths) wouldn't do things like that and would be more culturally sensitive using certain words that have different meanings in Ireland or Scotland; but I guess there is no accounting for some and I've been somewhat naive.

I MUST come to terms with the idea that some of those I encounter on-line in forums/lists are actually REAL people with credit cards! Sometimes it's just too hard to believe. :lol:

Faol-chu
July 14th, 2008, 08:05 AM
In my own experience and in discussing the experiences of those with whom I have talked who have had much more regular contact with native speakers, themselves (both from Canada and from Scotland)...
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There *is* a distrust of people who would refer to themselves as "CR".-
-
The only mitigating factor is whether or not one is choosing to learn the language. If the individual is choosing to learn the language, most tend to accept you with open arms. Even at that, though, some of them will still wonder "why?" This is apparently a throwback to their own early teachings that their own language is "inferior"...and they just are not sure they trust your motives.

odubhain
July 17th, 2008, 07:56 AM
In my own experience and in discussing the experiences of those with whom I have talked who have had much more regular contact with native speakers, themselves (both from Canada and from Scotland)...
-
There *is* a distrust of people who would refer to themselves as "CR".-
-
The only mitigating factor is whether or not one is choosing to learn the language. If the individual is choosing to learn the language, most tend to accept you with open arms. Even at that, though, some of them will still wonder "why?" This is apparently a throwback to their own early teachings that their own language is "inferior"...and they just are not sure they trust your motives.

The shared beauties of heritage, tradition, art and language form a strong bond for people who consider themselves to be Celtic (whether a reconstructionist or not). The tales heard at the knees of our grandparents should serve to unite us rather than being sources of division and strife.

My own take on this matter is that people will take one's practices seriously if one is truly committed and serious about them. It helps to share rather than to exclude or even to attempt to modify what is already considered traditional.

Including deities (whether Christian or Pagan) is an example where Celtic culture has shared or adopted rather than really adapting gods and goddesses. There is an outward veneer and an inner truth in these things that speaks to the heart of the matter while observing "appearances."

Searles O'Dubhain

Nuadu
September 15th, 2008, 10:21 PM
As someone that lives in a Celtic Country I have to say very few people know about Celtic Reconstructionism here. The people I've talked to about it are generally in admiration of CR's because they are working from abroad to preserve our heritage. That's a difficult enough task living in Ireland.

I have had the chance to read over CR websites and E-Lists personally I would view CR as being for people with a degree in Celtic Studies not for the average person. By extension I view Celtic Reconstructionists as people academically motivated, well intentioned and generally worthy of admiration. Sort of like the wealthy romantacists of the 19th century but less on romance.

unit18_nate
September 17th, 2008, 04:38 PM
As kindly as that may sound, many CRs would take offense to that as it is a common misconception that CR is only for those with great intellectual capacity and who are motivated only by academic pursuits. While there is a fair deal of self-study and discipline required, we are very much concerned with the spiritual side of things and we are not confined by academia. :hahugh:


I admit I find what I've seen of CR to be a bit on the academic side and hard to relate to as someone who's only interested in being a lay person so to speak. I also admit I've only just began to look into CR so I haven't had a great deal of experience. It also seems a bit more urban oriented oddly enough like Neo-paganism than say Asatru which seems to hold more down to earth ideals. I'm not trying to claim that's better and I'm not Asatru or anything myself. At least not at this time. At this time I'm a semi agnostic person interested in finding a pagan path who's drawn to celtic myths and legends but put off but the neo-pagan paths I've encountered so far.

Nuadu
September 18th, 2008, 07:31 AM
As kindly as that may sound, many CRs would take offense to that as it is a common misconception that CR is only for those with great intellectual capacity and who are motivated only by academic pursuits.

I'm Sorry Tomas I didn't mean to cause offense. How do Celtic Reconstructionists want to be perceived?

skilly-nilly
September 18th, 2008, 11:26 AM
As kindly as that may sound, many CRs would take offense to that as it is a common misconception that CR is only for those with great intellectual capacity and who are motivated only by academic pursuits. While there is a fair deal of self-study and discipline required, we are very much concerned with the spiritual side of things and we are not confined by academia. :hahugh:


I'm Sorry Tomas I didn't mean to cause offense. How do Celtic Reconstructionists want to be perceived?

It's certainly true that Celtic Reconstructionists spend a lot of time reading and discussing old lore written in different languages than English. While this might make us seem to be "people academically motivated" that would be exactly like saying the same thing about Xians because they study their Bible-- it's only a part of the religion. C-R's religious expression is often intensely personal and many of the practitioners don't discuss it much publicly, but it's there.

I don't know that C-R is urban at all. Surely a majority of people with computers live in 'urban' areas so if your exposure to C-R is through teh Interwub than it might seem to be an urban phenomenon but that would only be a seeming.

Nuadu
September 18th, 2008, 01:39 PM
I don't know that C-R is urban at all. Surely a majority of people with computers live in 'urban' areas so if your exposure to C-R is through teh Interwub than it might seem to be an urban phenomenon but that would only be a seeming.

Thanks for replying Skilly-Nilly you have a great name :T
I mostly experiance Celtic Reconstructionism through the internets so all I know about it is the essays and that the authors live predominantly in large north american cities. I'm sorry if I offended you.