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Shanti
July 25th, 2008, 02:30 AM
Another question for my self understanding of others. :)

Baptism is in the bible so do all branches of Christianity follow it?

What happens if a person accepts god or Jesus or whatever but dies before Baptism?

When I was in Catholic school, limbo existed for unbaptized believers and children. But I think its been erased or something. Now what happens?

Agaliha
July 25th, 2008, 02:47 AM
I think the view on baptism differs on which sect one is talking about. Catholicism has one view, Baptists another.

Some see it as necessary, others as not.
Some see it as symbolic, others literal.
Some see it as for infants, others wait till adulthood.
Some see it as necessary for salvation, others don't.
Etc.

Wiki has a good article about baptism in Christianity and other faiths:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baptism

These sections would be the most helpful, I think:


4 Meaning and effects of baptism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baptism#Meaning_and_effects_of_baptism)

4.1 Baptism in most Christian traditions (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baptism#Baptism_in_most_Christian_traditions)
4.2 Comparative summary (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baptism#Comparative_summary)
4.3 Ecumenical statement (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baptism#Ecumenical_statement)
4.4 Baptism and salvation in Roman Catholic teaching (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baptism#Baptism_and_salvation_in_Roman_Catholic_teaching)
4.5 Validity considerations by some Churches (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baptism#Validity_considerations_by_some_Churches)
4.6 Recognition of baptism by other denominations (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baptism#Recognition_of_baptism_by_other_denominations)
4.7 Who may administer a baptism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baptism#Who_may_administer_a_baptism)


5 Anabaptist and Baptist baptism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baptism#Anabaptist_and_Baptist_baptism)
6 Reformed and Covenant Theology view (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baptism#Reformed_and_Covenant_Theology_view)
7 Baptism in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baptism#Baptism_in_The_Church_of_Jesus_Christ_of_Latter-day_Saints)
8 Jehovah's Witnesses (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baptism#Jehovah.27s_Witnesses)
9 Baptism in Churches of Christ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baptism#Baptism_in_Churches_of_Christ)
10 Baptism in Hyperdispensationalism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baptism#Baptism_in_Hyperdispensationalism)

10.1 Another Hyperdispensationalist view (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baptism#Another_Hyperdispensationalist_view)




Are you interested in a general view within Christianity or one of a particular sect? If you narrow it down, more specific info could be found :)

Shanti
July 25th, 2008, 03:03 AM
I am looking for peoples opinions and thoughts, not research.

My goal is how others 'think' about the info out there.

Like the Limbo being exterminated...what do people now think happens?

As many possible perspectives as I can find opens my own mind to more understanding of people over all.

Its a self help thing. :)

I find more understanding talking to people than reading research type material, especially in areas that I don't believe in.
I read the stuff and think hogwash. I want to hear others perspectives that don't think its all hogwash or their interpretation of people they know that don't think its hogwash.

Agaliha
July 25th, 2008, 03:09 AM
I am looking for peoples opinions and thoughts, not research.
My goal is how others 'think' about the info out there.


Oh!
Sorry, your questions seemed like you wanted factual info, not opinions.
;)


Like the Limbo being exterminated...what do people now think happens?
I thought Catholicism still believes in Purgatory?
I also thought it was a Catholic-only belief, so it's not in Protestantism and other sects.


As many possible perspectives as I can find opens my own mind to more understanding of people over all.
Its a self help thing. :)
I find more understanding talking to people than reading research type material, especially in areas that I don't believe in.
I read the stuff and think hogwash. I want to hear others perspectives that don't think its all hogwash or their interpretation of people they know that don't think its hogwash.Gotcha.

Since I wasn't raised Christian or ever baptized, I don't think I can help you out there. I've honestly never really gave baptism any thought, even though briefly when I was 15-ish and in RCIA I flirted with the idea.

SilverClaw
July 25th, 2008, 03:31 AM
Another question for my self understanding of others. :)

Baptism is in the bible so do all branches of Christianity follow it?


Well in my limited experience as a Roman Catholic and Jehovah's Witness they both had Baptism incorporated in their belief systems. And as a Roman Catholic at the age of 8 or 9 I was Baptized. Then as a Jehovah's Witness I was working towards Baptism when I was 17, but quit when I saw the double standards...

MariThorn
July 25th, 2008, 08:05 AM
First let me say that Limbo does not exist any longer in the Catholic Tradition as viz Pope Benedict XVI's declaration. All those who were in Limbo are now in heaven, and unbaptized babies and children go to heaven . . . they hope. (As you don't want facts I won't put a reference there.) Purgatory is not Limbo, and it does still exist, it is more a process than a place. Because the word itself does not appear in Protestant Bibles, they do not adhere to it.

Roman Catholics believe you must be Baptized as part of your Christening, preferrable as a child, but adult if a convert or were never done so by your parents. You must be Baptized to receive the Eucharist and go to Heaven. They have Bible verses to support.

Southern Baptists believe that Baptizing makes you part of their fellowship, but otherwise it is nothing but something that you do to follow Christ's example.

Anglican and Methodists use baptism fonts like Catholics, but I don't know what exactly they believe it does for your soul, if anything.

I know that the Church of Christ believes you can lose your salvation, and you have to be baptized each time to get it back.

I believe that there are a plethera of beliefs regarding it. Even the Jewish people don't have one set accepted belief on it. Even in Jesus' time there was a disagreement on whether baptism was needed. One might say Christianity inherited the argument.

TheGrandInquisitor
July 25th, 2008, 08:13 AM
To me it is symbolic of washing away your sins in the Blood of the Lamb (Jesus) in preparation of a new life. Some religions believe in baptizing babies, I do not as this interferes with the free will of the person to make their own choice and that babies are without sin and the baptism serves no purpose. I think at least 8 years old is the mark of being old enough to make the decision, but no earlier.

Rudas Starblaze
July 25th, 2008, 08:20 AM
To me it is symbolic of washing away your sins in the Blood of the Lamb (Jesus) in preparation of a new life. Some religions believe in baptizing babies, I do not as this interferes with the free will of the person to make their own choice and that babies are without sin and the baptism serves no purpose. I think at least 8 years old is the mark of being old enough to make the decision, but no earlier.

QFT.:thumbsup:

i was gonna say pretty much the same thing added in that the bible specifically states that childeren belong to God anyway until they reach the point of concsiousness between knowing right and wronge. of course this age does vary with kids as mental maturity differs with everyone.

Thunder
July 25th, 2008, 08:46 AM
In the RCC (the church of my birth) the christening (naming of the child) is part of the baptism but most Catholics use the words interchangeably. When I was a child, catholic parents believed that an un-baptized child would not go to heaven so they were, consequently, eager to get it done and nervous about taking the child anywhere outside the home before the baptism.

LacyRoze
July 25th, 2008, 11:02 AM
In my church, Southern Baptist, baptism is for two reasons.Being baptized before the church members declares your commitment to your church. It's a public statement of your belief in Christ as your lord and saviour. Secondly it is symbolic of the death and resurrection. You go under the water to wash away your sins and rise out as a new person, washed clean.

Aoibheal
July 25th, 2008, 11:53 AM
Something I've found fascinating while studying Islam is that they believe a person is "Born on Fitra" which among other things, means that sins are not inherited and so that children do not need to be baptized because there is no original sin.

Just a little tidbit I thought I'd share since I thought that was the reason some Christian sects pushed for baptizing of infants, while I understand there are other reasons now for it and for doing it when you reach an age of "conciousness".

Cloaked Raven
July 25th, 2008, 12:09 PM
Anglican and Methodists use baptism fonts like Catholics, but I don't know what exactly they believe it does for your soul, if anything.



OK, I was raised in the Anglican church and according to my mother, getting Baptized was a commitment to God, Jesus and that denomination of Christianity. Mom says that an unbaptized child either goes to purgatory or hell for eternity. Now, I don't share that belief myself but that's what I was told at least.

Hope that made sense. :)

Shanti
July 25th, 2008, 01:07 PM
Wow, Baptism has a lot of variables to individuals.

I do like the re-birth thought better than the washing of sins.
Hard to understand sin theory when I don't believe in them.
But new path, new birth, change...those perspectives I find easy for my brain to incorporate. :)

I never understood infant baptism...my families tradition I happily broke.
But, with a perspective of opening a door for later entry in heaven, if one choses, could work for my mind. :)

Finding ways for my mind to interpret things makes accepting with a true heart much more real. It easy to accept if in mind I think...'baptism, rebirth, good ritual.' This thought transmits, peace and joy and acceptance in my heart.

Thoughts like this, 'baptism, what a waste of time or insignificant deed.' These types of thoughts send harsh and cold and unaccepting feelings in my heart.

I work to help my mind think good about things, especially the things I don't agree with or understand. :)

Cloaked Raven
July 25th, 2008, 01:26 PM
Shanti, wanting to understand and think good things on any subject is wonderful. We humans are naturally curious and if one doesn't ask questions, one doesn't receive the answers they seek.

Personally, I lean toward thinking that baptism in the Christian religion is a way for a person to show their love for Christ. Call it a public declaration of love for Him if you wish.

Although I grew up in the Anglican denomination, which baptizes infants, I don't think that one should be baptized until they are old enough to know exactly which religious path is right for them. I agree more with the Baptist's view on baptism, up here that denomination waits until a person is in their teens before they're baptized. When one is baptized, they should feel their love for Christ in their heart before they're baptized, and know that Christianity is the right path for them.

Just my views, that is all. Hope this helped you Shanti. :)

LacyRoze
July 25th, 2008, 01:52 PM
Our church also does not believe in baptizing infants. Usually children are in their teens and our pastor sits down with them to make sure they understand what baptism means. My son was 17 before he was baptized as I wanted him to be sure Christianity was the path he wanted to follow. Actually, he and I were baptized at the same time..

Cloaked Raven
July 25th, 2008, 01:59 PM
You know, I wish more denominations of Christianity were like that, LacyRoze. Allow the individual to decide which path is right for them before getting baptized.

Would have saved me a lot of trouble growing up, I can say that much. ;)

LostSheep
July 25th, 2008, 02:20 PM
Wow, Baptism has a lot of variables to individuals.

I do like the re-birth thought better than the washing of sins.
Hard to understand sin theory when I don't believe in them.
But new path, new birth, change...those perspectives I find easy for my brain to incorporate. :)....

It easy to accept if in mind I think...'baptism, rebirth, good ritual.' This thought transmits, peace and joy and acceptance in my heart.


Yes, that's why I tend to think that it should be, if you like, a mark of commitment to your particular path (much as similar ideas of rebirth and initiation are in various Pagan paths), rather than about 'washing clean' of inherited sins (which, after all, isn't a big thing in either the Old or New Testament, but which came later, as so many of the major ideas did). So i think that it should be a personal decision, when someone's old enough to make it, and not something that's automatically done before you're old enough to know anything about it, as that takes the idea of commitment out of it for me.

Cloaked Raven
July 25th, 2008, 02:24 PM
Yes, that's why I tend to think that it should be, if you like, a mark of commitment to your particular path (much as similar ideas of rebirth and initiation are in various Pagan paths), rather than about 'washing clean' of inherited sins (which, after all, isn't a big thing in either the Old or New Testament, but which came later, as so many of the major ideas did). So i think that it should be a personal decision, when someone's old enough to make it, and not something that's automatically done before you're old enough to know anything about it, as that takes the idea of commitment out of it for me.
Well said, Sheep!

David19
July 25th, 2008, 06:59 PM
Our church also does not believe in baptizing infants. Usually children are in their teens and our pastor sits down with them to make sure they understand what baptism means. My son was 17 before he was baptized as I wanted him to be sure Christianity was the path he wanted to follow. Actually, he and I were baptized at the same time..


You know, I wish more denominations of Christianity were like that, LacyRoze. Allow the individual to decide which path is right for them before getting baptized.

Would have saved me a lot of trouble growing up, I can say that much. ;)

I agree with you 2, I think, it would be better for Baptism's to take place, when the person is old enough to understand it, and, knows they want to follow Christianity. Your Pastor sounds very cool, LacyRoze, for sitting down with teens, and others, and making sure they understand, what a Baptism does.

That said, some of the Christening's they have for babies are quite cool too. Maybe, they could still have a Christening for babies, but, make it less formal, and have the more formal Baptism, when the child is old enough to understand it, and knows they want to follow Christianity.

Shanti
July 26th, 2008, 12:39 AM
Shanti, wanting to understand and think good things on any subject is wonderful. We humans are naturally curious and if one doesn't ask questions, one doesn't receive the answers they seek.

Personally, I lean toward thinking that baptism in the Christian religion is a way for a person to show their love for Christ. Call it a public declaration of love for Him if you wish.

Although I grew up in the Anglican denomination, which baptizes infants, I don't think that one should be baptized until they are old enough to know exactly which religious path is right for them. I agree more with the Baptist's view on baptism, up here that denomination waits until a person is in their teens before they're baptized. When one is baptized, they should feel their love for Christ in their heart before they're baptized, and know that Christianity is the right path for them.

Just my views, that is all. Hope this helped you Shanti. :)Hey!!! A expression of love!!! Gosh an expression of love is always a pleasant and wonderful thing!!! Thats a beautiful perspective to carry in regards to baptism. :smile:
Even in regards to infant baptism..."they are people who love their deity and thus they show that they are raising their children with the same love.'
Thats a beautiful thought I like. :)
Guess my parents were really trying to do good when they put me under the water ritual at a few days old, when looking at it in a different light. :)

Bronach Druid
July 26th, 2008, 12:43 AM
I was born into an Irish-Catholic family. I was baptized/christened as a baby and confirmed when I was 13, as was the tradition at the time. . The age for confirmation has been raised, but imo, it is still too young.
Baptism to Catholics is one of the seven sacraments. It does not, as some other forms of Christianity believe, having anything to do with "accepting Jesus". Catholics believe this to wash away original sin. In the case of an adult baptism, it would wash away both original and actual sin. It is also believed that it emphasizes the importance of faith on the part of the parents and the godparents. In having your child baptized, you are agreeing to accept responsibility to train your child in the practice of the Catholic faith. It is considered the first sacrament of initiation, but baptism alone does not make you a "full fledge" Catholic.
Confirmation, the second sacrament of initiation, is actually the one that supposedly binds you to the Church. Oddly, Holy Communion is the third sacrament of initiation, even though it is received long before Confirmation. I never could get an answer on why.
Anyway, maybe that will explain a bit better as to why Catholics believe in infant baptism. To them there is really nothing for the child to understand, nor is that child at that time agreeing to be a part of the Catholic church, as least not in the same sense as some other forms of Christianity.

Shanti
July 26th, 2008, 12:49 AM
Opps! I meant to start a new thread!! LOL