Bible, new testiment, love thy neighbor?

[Shanti]

I know the bible is conflicting to say the least, but in the new testament isn't the message..love thy neighbor. Love all men. Love thy enemy, and so on?

I do get confused why many Christians that follow the new testament feel people of other faith are evil and bad and to stay away from them. How people of different life styles are bad and evil and stay away from them.
How different people deserve natural disasters and such.

How can any new testament follower allow themselves so much hate, when they should be showing and feeling love and compassion?

Is there anything in the new testament that could be sending a different message than love?
I don't remember seeing anything about belittling or hating others.

I do feel If Jesus really did teach, all he taught was similar to Buddha...peace, love and compassion for all.

*My own personal feelings...Jesus was probably a Buddha, since we all have a Buddha inside us...a person of pure love, pure peace and pure compassion and pure understanding.

I am looking for perspectives if the bible (the new testament in this case) was believed or is believed.

[Caitlin.ann]

The bible is a compilation of many different books by many different authors written over thousands of years (different societies, etc.). What was put in the Bible was decided by the church (wasn't council of nicea, was something else, forget now though), so many books were left out. Of course the "correct books" chosen for the Bible were chosen for an agenda at that time although many Christians will never admit any of this..personal experience tells me this. Thats why the confusion and contradictions throughout the good book though. Plus many stories were written many years after the fact (after everyone in Jesus's lifetime had died for example) so things in the Bible are easily exaggerated or lost in translation.

In my mind, Jesus just wanted to reform Judaism, not start a new religion. It was actually Paul who started Christianity, not Jesus. But he wasn't always so peaceful anyhow for example at the Temple Mount where he turned over the tables and I'm pretty sure he had some nasty sermons about Hell though my memory is fuzzy right now.

[Shanti]

Sorry..this is like my other post. I forgot to make myself clear.

I know the facts of the bible. I am looking for perspectives if the bible (the new testament in this case) was believed.

If I followed it, I wouldn't interpret the over all message of anything but love in the new testament.
I didn't notice anything that would support hate. Some of it is confusing though.

[coeur]

Christians might do it for the same reason some Wiccans are vehemently anti-Christian--some Wiccans can really help themselves to big servings of anti-Christianity despite how nice and peaceful their religion is supposed to be (note 'some' does not have to mean 'most' or even 'many' but we've all seen it happen before, so certainly the situation exists). Or, for the same reason why people drive 70mph when they should be driving 25mph; why you have to eat cookies before dinnertime and ruin your appetite; why you can't help but dislike someone because of the way they look even though you know better than to do so.

Hate, discrimination, and rule-breaking are not solely Christian problems. They are human problems. Christianity isn't the only religion in the world that has problems with adherence. There have been militant Buddhists, for example, and my favorite line of the evening is, "Some years later, Mongke died during a battle between the Buddhists and the Taoists." One can deduct there have also been militant Taoists in the past as well. You have Hindus who eat beef even though they know they're not supposed to. I've met Muslims who swear and drink.

And I want to question your usage of the word 'many'--since I'm a bit of a stickler for statistics--how many is 'many'? Because I've met a lot of Christians who are very tolerant. I understand my personal experiences do not comprise a definitive conclusion of what percentage of Christians are tolerant of other religions (I haven't done a proper survey so I don't have any conclusive numbers); yet, I would appreciate it if you would share any statistical information regarding this matter. Is it an epidemic? Is it only an epidemic among Christians who post in Yahoo chatrooms? Is it only an epidemic among Christians who watch conservative Christian shows--and exactly how many Christians do that anyway?

It becomes difficult to diagnose the problem when there's no dependable data--and I am extremely weary of relying on other peoples' experiences because...experiences offer very limited and local information.

[Brónach Druid]

Shanti, I think that thinking is more "born agains" then other forms of Christianity. Pat Robertson etc.
Born agains believe that God commands them to stop fellowshipping with the unsaved, as it often leads to misguided advice. They believe they must "put away" their unsaved friends and family because they do not have God as their priority and are destined for hell. They say that you may testify to the unsaved but can no longer befriend them. Their definition of unsaved is of course anyone who is not "born again".
You can find passages in the bible that kind of support their beliefs if you read Corinthians or Thessalonians, I am sure there are more examples, but it is late and that's all I can think of right now. If you want specific examples, I can look for them tomorrow.

[Shanti]

Christians might do it for the same reason some Wiccans are vehemently anti-Christian--some Wiccans can really help themselves to big servings of anti-Christianity despite how nice and peaceful their religion is supposed to be (note 'some' does not have to mean 'most' or even 'many' but we've all seen it happen before, so certainly the situation exists). Or, for the same reason why people drive 70mph when they should be driving 25mph; why you have to eat cookies before dinnertime and ruin your appetite; why you can't help but dislike someone because of the way they look even though you know better than to do so.

Hate, discrimination, and rule-breaking are not solely Christian problems. They are human problems. Christianity isn't the only religion in the world that has problems with adherence. There have been militant Buddhists, for example, and my favorite line of the evening is, "Some years later, Mongke died during a battle between the Buddhists and the Taoists." One can deduct there have also been militant Taoists in the past as well. You have Hindus who eat beef even though they know they're not supposed to. I've met Muslims who swear and drink.

And I want to question your usage of the word 'many'--since I'm a bit of a stickler for statistics--how many is 'many'? Because I've met a lot of Christians who are very tolerant. I understand my personal experiences do not comprise a definitive conclusion of what percentage of Christians are tolerant of other religions (I haven't done a proper survey so I don't have any conclusive numbers); yet, I would appreciate it if you would share any statistical information regarding this matter. Is it an epidemic? Is it only an epidemic among Christians who post in Yahoo chatrooms? Is it only an epidemic among Christians who watch conservative Christian shows--and exactly how many Christians do that anyway?

It becomes difficult to diagnose the problem when there's no dependable data--and I am extremely weary of relying on other peoples' experiences because...experiences offer very limited and local information.
Sorry no offense meant.
Many I used because this is opinions and perspectives, not facts.
In my personal experience it has been many, to many that have this type of belittling in their hearts...including average run of the mill farmers!

I know it happens in all walks of life...I was sharing perspectives from Christian view thats why this post is here in this forum!

I am not diagnosing nothing.

I am looking for possible reason on how love can be turned to satisfy ones bias within the Christian faith.

Its quite impossible to ask a bias person why they hate another when the new testament says love. They become hostile. They dont like having their prejudices pointed out as not a nice thing to do or say.

I am looking for maybe something in the new testament that may help reason why their prejudice is acceptable... or some thing to make sense of it.

[Shanti]

Shanti, I think that thinking is more "born agains" then other forms of Christianity. Pat Robertson etc.
Born agains believe that God commands them to stop fellowshipping with the unsaved, as it often leads to misguided advice. They believe they must "put away" their unsaved friends and family because they do not have God as their priority and are destined for hell. They say that you may testify to the unsaved but can no longer befriend them. Their definition of unsaved is of course anyone who is not "born again".
You can find passages in the bible that kind of support their beliefs if you read Corinthians or Thessalonians, I am sure there are more examples, but it is late and that's all I can think of right now. If you want specific examples, I can look for them tomorrow.Nope...everyday people. Farmers, factory workers, all sorts of everyday normal people. I do live in a rural area, white bible belt.

I listen to people talk. Its not nice and its common, here.

Its also common on many farming forums too. I say many because I have been all over the ag circuit and its really hard not to come across it all the time.
It makes it very hard to discuss sheep!

Its also in our local 4H. Hence we decided our kids wont join. Its hard enough for us to stay positive. The kids dont need to feel belittled too.

So I search for the need to find a understanding so I can see even this wave of righteousness as tolerable. They must have a perspective they feel is just.

I know not all people are meant to be good to all others. Thats a fairy tale.
I also know even the worse of people no matter what walk of life they are from has reasoning behind their ways. We all do.
What I can not change I seek to understand or at least accept.

The serenity prayer is my favorite prayer of all and I dont even believe in deity, but I believe in a good life with my fellow humankind, even the not nice ones.

God grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change;
courage to change the things I can;
and wisdom to know the difference.
Living one day at a time;
Enjoying one moment at a time;
Accepting hardships as the pathway to peace;
Taking, as He did, this sinful world
as it is, not as I would have it;
Trusting that He will make all things right
if I surrender to His Will;
That I may be reasonably happy in this life
and supremely happy with Him
Forever in the next.

[Shanti]

Oh another thing..no one I deal with or talk too outside of MW, or family, or friends even knows we are not Christian. They assume I am and they dont hold back how they feel about others.
Where my mate works its assumed he is like them and they too do not hide their feelings.

[LostSheep]

The bible is a compilation of many different books by many different authors written over thousands of years (different societies, etc.). What was put in the Bible was decided by the church (wasn't council of nicea, was something else, forget now though), so many books were left out. Of course the "correct books" chosen for the Bible were chosen for an agenda at that time although many Christians will never admit any of this..personal experience tells me this. Thats why the confusion and contradictions throughout the good book though. Plus many stories were written many years after the fact (after everyone in Jesus's lifetime had died for example) so things in the Bible are easily exaggerated or lost in translation.

very true. It was the Emperor Constantine who organised the council of Nicaea that decided what would be "official" dogma. And so all the various contradictions. The vengeful, fire-and-brimstone God of the Old testament (which was how the Jewish people wanted to see him then, as a God who was on their side when they were surrounded by enemies on all sides), sits along the "turn the other cheek" of Jesus and the "God is love" of John. Not different Gods, just different ways that they wanted to think of him at the time.


In my mind, Jesus just wanted to reform Judaism, not start a new religion. It was actually Paul who started Christianity, not Jesus. But he wasn't always so peaceful anyhow for example at the Temple Mount where he turned over the tables .

I think that was what his message was about: established, organised religion had got over-powerful and more concerned about power and status than serving the needs of the people, he felt that the priests were getting in the way and it all needed a good clear out. In fact, he felt that the whole Temple wasn't needed at all really.

[Philosophia]

I know the bible is conflicting to say the least, but in the new testament isn't the message..love thy neighbor. Love all men. Love thy enemy, and so on?

How can any new testament follower allow themselves so much hate, when they should be showing and feeling love and compassion?

Is there anything in the new testament that could be sending a different message than love?
I don't remember seeing anything about belittling or hating others.

I'm going to take a stab but I could be missing the target (I'm not feeling very well right now).

There are some (based upon my experiences) who use religion to justify their hatred by misrepresenting what the bible actually means.

They take passages, lines, etc. and use them to somehow justify their actions based upon hate and their flawed interpretation. It's easy to take a quote out of context or put your own flawed meaning of it without thinking how it doesn't fit with the rest of the story.

For some, religion is a reason for standing well in society. They use it as a badge of honor and are usually the ones to first condemn anybody that acts outside what they consider to be the norm.

Unfortunately, this isn't unique to just the bible. The Koran, Torah, etc. have virtually the same issue with individuals taking passages out of the book and using it to either justify their hatred or push forward a view point.

In my opinion, its not a book to be take literally. It's the same with every other "holy" book in the world today. The main basis for it is metaphorical and allows the person to gain valuable lessons from it.

The new testament is "nicer" than the old testament but it still has areas of some darkness that generally conflicts with the bible itself.

[Brightshores]

This is only my opinion - but I feel a lot of the fire and brimstone, judge others sort of mindset in Christianity is based on the letters of Paul rather than on that which Christ is actually supposed to have said. This is supported both by the Old Testament books (esp. Leviticus, etc.) and by later patristic writers, especially St. Augustine of Hippo.

In the context of the times - Paul was a leader of a community that was very much persecuted and under threat. So, the kind of "let's keep to ourselves, don't trust those of other faiths" idea made sense - at that time, trusting someone outside the community could very realistically get you killed. Or tortured. Or enslaved.

However - IMHO, that way of thinking has very seriously outlived its usefulness in the Western world. No one in the Western world is persecuting Christians. (The situation in China, some Muslim countries, etc. is different, of course).

[Shanti]

I think I may have to re-read the new testament so I can find passages that may give the people of topic the justification for their biasness.

My goal is those that will not change, I wish to love.
If love cant heal another's heart it most definitely can heal mine own.
I wish to be a person of love.

Learning to love all is a challenge, but I believe the mind, heart, and spirit can come together in anyone to make loving all, even the worse of the worse, possible.
Its the mind that really resist the most for me.

[GEBS]

My understanding of what Jesus taught is very similar to what you stated, Shanti. In my experience the talk of treating non-Christians differently came from the leaders of the churches I attended. Perhaps the churches I attended were not good examples of Christianity. Maybe they misinterpreted what they were reading. I remember being in Bible study reading passages with them. My interpretation was different than theirs several times.

My favorite kind of Christian is like mol's mom. She accepts me and loves me even though I am not Christian. She calls me her little witch. She even asks for advice on herbs and oils.
She doesn't attend church. She studies the Bible and interprets it the way that makes sense to her. And she lives it.

[David19]

Christians might do it for the same reason some Wiccans are vehemently anti-Christian--some Wiccans can really help themselves to big servings of anti-Christianity despite how nice and peaceful their religion is supposed to be (note 'some' does not have to mean 'most' or even 'many' but we've all seen it happen before, so certainly the situation exists). Or, for the same reason why people drive 70mph when they should be driving 25mph; why you have to eat cookies before dinnertime and ruin your appetite; why you can't help but dislike someone because of the way they look even though you know better than to do so.

Hate, discrimination, and rule-breaking are not solely Christian problems. They are human problems. Christianity isn't the only religion in the world that has problems with adherence. There have been militant Buddhists, for example, and my favorite line of the evening is, "Some years later, Mongke died during a battle between the Buddhists and the Taoists." One can deduct there have also been militant Taoists in the past as well. You have Hindus who eat beef even though they know they're not supposed to. I've met Muslims who swear and drink.

And I want to question your usage of the word 'many'--since I'm a bit of a stickler for statistics--how many is 'many'? Because I've met a lot of Christians who are very tolerant. I understand my personal experiences do not comprise a definitive conclusion of what percentage of Christians are tolerant of other religions (I haven't done a proper survey so I don't have any conclusive numbers); yet, I would appreciate it if you would share any statistical information regarding this matter. Is it an epidemic? Is it only an epidemic among Christians who post in Yahoo chatrooms? Is it only an epidemic among Christians who watch conservative Christian shows--and exactly how many Christians do that anyway?

It becomes difficult to diagnose the problem when there's no dependable data--and I am extremely weary of relying on other peoples' experiences because...experiences offer very limited and local information.

Good post, and I, pretty much, agree, I think it's largely a human problem, it's not really a Christian problem, there are many Wiccans who are completely anti-Christian, anti-Judaism, and anti-Jewish, anti-Muslim and Islam, etc, there are plenty of Muslims who are assholes, Jews who are assholes, Hindus, Buddhists, Taoists, other Pagans, Native Americans, Aboriginal's, Asian, Chinese, etc people who are assholes. I'd say the only reason the Christian fundamentalists, and bigots, are noticed more, is 'cause, it is one of the largest religions in the world (I think, anyone feel free to correct me?), and, there are a lot of Christians in the U.S., if you lived in China, for example, or Japan, or Tibet, etc, I'm sure you'd be noticing the Tibetan Buddhist assholes, bigots and fundamentalists, or the Taoist fundamentalists, bigots and assholes, or the Shintoist fundamentalists, bigots and assholes, etc.

I'm not sure why people feel the need to do that, but, I'd say it's more a human problem, than anything to do with Christianity, the Christian fundamentalists, bigots, and assholes, probably, just ignore the parts they don't want to hear in the Bible, so they can continue to hate people, based on culture, religion, sexuality, etc.

[David19]

very true. It was the Emperor Constantine who organised the council of Nicaea that decided what would be "official" dogma. And so all the various contradictions. The vengeful, fire-and-brimstone God of the Old testament (which was how the Jewish people wanted to see him then, as a God who was on their side when they were surrounded by enemies on all sides), sits along the "turn the other cheek" of Jesus and the "God is love" of John. Not different Gods, just different ways that they wanted to think of him at the time.



I think that was what his message was about: established, organised religion had got over-powerful and more concerned about power and status than serving the needs of the people, he felt that the priests were getting in the way and it all needed a good clear out. In fact, he felt that the whole Temple wasn't needed at all really.

Good post, and, I've also read that Jesus didn't intend for Christianity to become a huge religion, but a Jewish Mystery religion, one that you had to be initiated into, just like the Eleusinian Mysteries (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eleusinian_Mysteries) (& here (http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=Eleusian+Mysteries&meta=)), the Mysteries of Mithras (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mithraism) (& here (http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=Wikipedia+-+The+Mysteries+of+Mithras&meta=) and here (http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=The+Mysteries+of+Mithras&meta=)), the Dionysian Mysteries (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dionysian_Mysteries) (& here (http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=The+Mysteries+of+Dionysus&meta=)), the Mysteries of Cybele (http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=The+Cybele+Mystery+Cult&meta=), etc. There's evidence that, that was what the Gnostic Christians, and the very early Christians were.

Then, I think, when the Roman's got ahold of it, they changed a lot of it.

[David19]

I'm going to take a stab but I could be missing the target (I'm not feeling very well right now).

There are some (based upon my experiences) who use religion to justify their hatred by misrepresenting what the bible actually means.

They take passages, lines, etc. and use them to somehow justify their actions based upon hate and their flawed interpretation. It's easy to take a quote out of context or put your own flawed meaning of it without thinking how it doesn't fit with the rest of the story.

For some, religion is a reason for standing well in society. They use it as a badge of honor and are usually the ones to first condemn anybody that acts outside what they consider to be the norm.

Unfortunately, this isn't unique to just the bible. The Koran, Torah, etc. have virtually the same issue with individuals taking passages out of the book and using it to either justify their hatred or push forward a view point.

In my opinion, its not a book to be take literally. It's the same with every other "holy" book in the world today. The main basis for it is metaphorical and allows the person to gain valuable lessons from it.

The new testament is "nicer" than the old testament but it still has areas of some darkness that generally conflicts with the bible itself.

QFT, and good points and post :).

[David19]

My understanding of what Jesus taught is very similar to what you stated, Shanti. In my experience the talk of treating non-Christians differently came from the leaders of the churches I attended. Perhaps the churches I attended were not good examples of Christianity. Maybe they misinterpreted what they were reading. I remember being in Bible study reading passages with them. My interpretation was different than theirs several times.

My favorite kind of Christian is like mol's mom. She accepts me and loves me even though I am not Christian. She calls me her little witch. She even asks for advice on herbs and oils.
She doesn't attend church. She studies the Bible and interprets it the way that makes sense to her. And she lives it.

Good post, and, your mother-in-law sounds like a very cool person. IMO, you don't have to go to Church to be a good Christian, I know, there are some great Christians, who don't go to Church, all the time, or even never, but are still really great people, just like you don't have to go to a Mosque all the time to be a good Muslim, or go to a Synagogue all the time to be a good Jew, etc. Afterall, even in Christian (and Jewish, Muslim, etc) theology, God is everywhere, not just a Church.

[Shanti]

My understanding of what Jesus taught is very similar to what you stated, Shanti. In my experience the talk of treating non-Christians differently came from the leaders of the churches I attended. Perhaps the churches I attended were not good examples of Christianity. Maybe they misinterpreted what they were reading. I remember being in Bible study reading passages with them. My interpretation was different than theirs several times.

My favorite kind of Christian is like mol's mom. She accepts me and loves me even though I am not Christian. She calls me her little witch. She even asks for advice on herbs and oils.
She doesn't attend church. She studies the Bible and interprets it the way that makes sense to her. And she lives it.Interpretation and teaching.

Excellent GEBS.

People, some, are followers and dont look beyond others interpretations.
Thus, they also pass on teaching they have followed to their kin.

I have had a hard time even getting close family to explain their perspectives of their less savy ideals.
But, I can see it would be difficult to explain themselves when they are simply following another's ideal for their own.
My Inlaws follow their churches teaching. Its not to great of a church. My SIL just totally abandoned her Christianity because she got so turned off by the families not to nice church.
I said she doesnt have to abandon her faith because of a bad church, but she is just so frustrated right now...she feels she needs to just look elsewhere for her spirituality.
Its sad, I feel, when someone gets so upset that they abandon the path because of the people.

I understand better with the thought about following what is taught.
My FIL/MIL have been following the family church for so long, they cant understand even a little why one by one their own grown children have chosen to, find a new church or abandon their path all together.

I imagine, in my area, this may be a very big reason why it seems few people are open to change.

Its a small area and many of the churches are very...um, you know....carved in stone. ;)

Also Gebs, your post got me thinking about interpetation.

I remember reading somewhere in the new testament about slaves. Its said something like slaves obey you masters and masters be kind to your slaves.
Its understandable that slavery is there as it was a normal part of life back then.

But I imagine people could see it that slavery was, 'ok'. approved by god, Jesus or whatever, meaning some people are of low class and are subhuman kinda, thus its the way it should be...low life people and the superior people. This interpretation of dividing people, master/slave, I think, could easily place justification on racism here in our country for some people.


I interpret slavery in the bible as...slaves obey, because it the way of life. And masters be kind because slaves are people to and deserve kindness and respect just like you! So, if slave and master treat each other well and with respect because all people are people....harmony would be easier to obtain.
Slaves would obey while masters treat then well with kindness and consideration and good care.
I see a desire for people to accept their class by way of society but with respect because all humans deserve it, poor slave and rich master.
I also null an void such things because I feel its out dated.
Slavery today just shouldn't be since we know better now.

But that doesn't mean all people look at past messages as being out of date.

You gave me more to ponder Gebs. Thank you! :)

[Lahmi]

Sorry..this is like my other post. I forgot to make myself clear.

I know the facts of the bible. I am looking for perspectives if the bible (the new testament in this case) was believed.

If I followed it, I wouldn't interpret the over all message of anything but love in the new testament.
I didn't notice anything that would support hate. Some of it is confusing though.

And that, Shanti, is because there is nothing there to support hate.
We, if we follow the path that Jesus has for us, are to love people.

This does not mean that we have to agree with their actions or their spiritual path.
That being said, those that hate do make it harder for folks to understand
the Gospel.

Mark