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Amanda Mitchell
August 1st, 2008, 08:40 PM
So me and hubby just got a new dog from a shelter like 4 days ago. The shelter had picked her up as a stray.
They think she is a pomeranian/spitz mix.
She is solid white.
9 and a half pounds.
Estimated 1 and a half to 2 years old.

She is a really good dog... except for one pretty major thing... her potty habits.
She absolutely refuses to go outside. We take her outside, and she acts like it is just the worst thing ever... even when we put the leash on her inside to get ready to go outside, it's like she knows what is going to happen and she plants her butt down and will not budge, and if we try to coax her out with a treat, she just looks at us like "I ain't stupid... I know what you're trying to do."

So... we decided that we would train her to go potty in a cage (kinda like litter box training)....
she had one "accident" (poop) got her nose rubbed in it, the poop and then she was locked in the cage with the poop for like half a hour... to show her that's where she is supposed to poop. (Don't worry... we are not that cruel... it's a decent sized cage)
She hasn't had a poop since then, so I don't know if that method of teaching worked or not... I guess we'll see...

Now she has started urinating in the house (and NOT in the cage)... ARRRGH!!!!

Why is she doing this? Why does hate "outside so much? Is it because she was a stray maybe?

Rudas Starblaze
August 1st, 2008, 08:51 PM
perhaps shes never really been outside her entire life?

my big black cat i got when it was very young, maybe 4 weeks old. so hes well trained with a litter box. the few times hes gotten out and stayed out overnight, he never went... when i would let him in the next day, he would spend about 20 mins in the litter box.

you may want to try keeping the dog outside for a few days/weeks instead of in the house. itll get used to going outside eventually. :thumbsup:

Amanda Mitchell
August 1st, 2008, 08:56 PM
perhaps shes never really been outside her entire life?but if the shelter got her as a stray... doesn't mean she was outside?



you may want to try keeping the dog outside for a few days/weeks instead of in the house. itll get used to going outside eventually.we live in an apartment complex and she is new to us so I'm worried that'd if we tried that, she end up getting lost... and "being a stray" again :(

RainInanna
August 1st, 2008, 09:22 PM
Dogs naturally poop OUTSIDE their den. Puppies learn not to poop inside them. Most people cage train a dog by putting them in the cage to prevent them from going and letting them outside TO go on paper. But naturally she'll probably have an issue with going in an enclosed space, it'll probably be confusing.

Caitlin.ann
August 1st, 2008, 09:24 PM
I can't think of any way to help..the way my parents trained Remi, I regretfully admit was to scare her with a spanking which I don't advise. However maybe you could post pictures of your lovely new dog? I think maybe she's afraid from her days of a stray but I can't really know. I hope you receive the advice which you seek.

Amanda Mitchell
August 1st, 2008, 09:31 PM
Dogs naturally poop OUTSIDE their den. Puppies learn not to poop inside them. Most people cage train a dog by putting them in the cage to prevent them from going and letting them outside TO go on paper. But naturally she'll probably have an issue with going in an enclosed space, it'll probably be confusing.She doesn't stay in the cage any other time... she sleeps on our bed and stuff... the cage is always open... it's kinda like her own little doggie bathroom. We just closed her in there that one time thinking that would help her realize that was where she wass supposed to use the potty. Guess we were wrong... *sigh*

RainInanna
August 1st, 2008, 09:35 PM
Usually you put them in the cage next to the bed at night so they get used to sleeping in a "den" and don't go potty in it because they think of it that way. Then you take them to potty first thing in the morning, at meals, and at night before bed. What I've read says to ignore them entirely when they mess in the wrong spot (don't look at them even) and to praise them like crazy when they do go in the right spot. Eventually if you do it often enough they go in the right place at the right time, get ridiculously rewarded, and realize they should do it all the time.

You might try the library for puppy books and ideas on potty training, it definitely helped me.

Amanda Mitchell
August 1st, 2008, 09:37 PM
You might try the library for puppy books and ideas on potty trainingeven though she's not technically a puppy?

WolfPup522
August 1st, 2008, 09:37 PM
Try the 'potty training pads'. You can get them at PetSmart or whatever pet store is local to you. They have some scent in them that draws the dog there to go. When my Molly is having a bad spell, she uses the pads in the house because she can't wait until we get home. Once you have her going on those, take them outside with you... enough repetition and she'll get the hint. Whenever she uses the pad or goes outside, lavish her with praise, lots of petting and lots of "GOOD GIRL"s. She learns that you LOVE it when she does that and she's way more likely to do it again.

Don't encourage her to go in her crate. That should be her "safe place" - the place she goes when she needs a break or when she wants to rest in comfort by herself. She won't want to go in there if she's had to poo there. Also, pushing her nose in it doesn't teach her not to do it in the house - it simply teaches her that she better not get caught - to the point of going and then eating it. Yep, you saw that right, if they are scared enough, they will try to eat it to get rid of the evidence. You might be surprised where I've found puppy poo when my mom tried to train my childhood dog like that - and I caught him eating it several times. Sad... and gross!

Also, remember that she is in a new environment. She needs to learn to be safe there. It is going to take some time. After I adopted Molly, it took her MONTHS to figure out that when I let her outside, I wasn't going to just leave her there.

Good luck!!

Amanda Mitchell
August 1st, 2008, 09:40 PM
Also, remember that she is in a new environment. She needs to learn to be safe there. It is going to take some time. After I adopted Molly, it took her MONTHS to figure out that when I let her outside, I wasn't going to just leave her there.Oh... so maybe that's why she is so terrified to go outside???

RainInanna
August 1st, 2008, 09:43 PM
Yes, even though she's not a puppy; it has nothing to do with age, just training. You'd train her the same way you train a puppy.

No idea why she's afraid of being outside - could be anything at all. Could be simply that she needs to acclimate to her new home INSIDE before she feels safe enough to leave it again. Give her time and space to relax. Sounds like she's had a rough life and it's good of you to give her a loving home :)

WolfPup522
August 1st, 2008, 09:45 PM
Oh... so maybe that's why she is so terrified to go outside???

Absolutely possible. Molly would go outside, but not by herself for a long time. Now, she loves lounging in the sun! I had some problems with Molly until I put myself in "her paws" and realized why she had some of the behavorial issues.

Just stick with it and remember, repetition with LOTS of positive reinforcement is the key, and you will do great with her!

WolfPup522
August 1st, 2008, 09:45 PM
Yes, even though she's not a puppy; it has nothing to do with age, just training. You'd train her the same way you train a puppy.

No idea why she's afraid of being outside - could be anything at all. Could be simply that she needs to acclimate to her new home INSIDE before she feels safe enough to leave it again. Give her time and space to relax. Sounds like she's had a rough life and it's good of you to give her a loving home :)

I second that!

lioncastle
August 4th, 2008, 07:46 AM
I second what others have said here with regard to NOT "pushing her nose" into her stool or punishing her - but emphasizing the rewards when she does go outside - make sure you take her out frequently and not "just" for potty - short visits, all good experieces, use her favourite treats, if she's food motivated. But one thing l'd like to emphasize is, make sure she is on a schedule while you're adjusting hr to the new home and using the outdoors. By this I mean, she gets breakfast, lunch dinner and snacks at regular times, and you take her out regularly; for example, the day starts with a little trip outside, followed by breakfast; then you go out mid morning, then before lunch (if you feed three times a day, if you don't I recommend starting to) and so on. Dogs are always more happy and well adjusted with what we call "reliable predictors" - knowing WHEN a thing is going to happen - and this is why they are so expert at readings us, they *know* what we are planning to do before we think we've given a single sign. So it reduces stress on the dog if she knows what to expect and can learn to rely on a daily schedule. Of course, sticking to a schedule will help regulate her needs to defecate and urinate, and helps you predict when she will need to go.

If this dog is newly home from a shelter, you can try adding a few drops of Walnut (Bach Flower Essence) to her drinking water, too. If food isn't her thing - a lOT of small dogs are picky eaters - make the outdoors time happy by bringing a faourite toy along.

Just make the schedule regular, and the associaion with outside all good and happy and you are on the right track. If you notice that she is learning to defecate outdoors and still urinating inside, have her checked for a UTI. A lot of shelter dogs have UTIs and it will make it impossible for her to hold her urine even if she wants to.

Good luck,
lioncastle

magick_faerie
August 4th, 2008, 08:16 AM
i have trained dogs for a good few years now and i have learned one valuable lesson...never never rub dogs faces in their mess. They dont know they have done wrong if they have never learnt the correct way...put it this way...when potty training a child you wouldnt rub your babies face in its nappy would you? The best way to do it...and i have done this with all my rescues....hopefully it will work for you

use puppy training pads firstly....they are an absolute life saver lol adn whenever your dog has eaten or drank...go outside with it...play around take a toy then come back in...dont give any commands unless the dog does something....
if your dog has an accident in the house **silently** pick your dog up and take him outside...just for a minute...then come back in

the wquickest way to train an animal especially a rescue is by positve reinforcement...do not punish bad behaivour because to a dog any kind of attention is attention....you have to go completly overboard on the positive...i did that with my rescue who was 13 and had never lived in a house...they told me she would never be housetrained...after 3 days wa going in the garden no problem....the odd accident at night but we will forgive her that as she had renal failure!

trust me on this....you just have to stick with it....a rescue dog is the greatest kind of dog you could of got because believe me they will love you a thousand times over for your love....

hope everything goes easier for you and your new addition! good luck

Brightest Blessings
fae

TuathaSidhe
August 4th, 2008, 09:50 AM
I only skimmed the posts, so I'll probably repeat.

Stop pushing the dogs nose in its poop and stop using the crate as punishment. This is likely to make the dog scared and not want to go in the crate. I mean thats a place you know use for punishment, its a "bad" place.

You need to get on a schedule and like I saw someone else said, treat like you would a puppy going out.

On top of that....its possible the dog isnt afraid to go outside, but is afraid of the collar and leash.

I've had a few older rescue dogs who had never ever had leashes/collars on and they HATED it and seems do scared of them.

Does the dog keep a collar on at all times? I know some people leave them off and then only put them on when to go out. <shrugs> I dunno, but you can put a collar on the dog while you are there and let them get use to it..then, you can go a step further and get a leash (cut the loop off) and attach it to the collar and let the dog drag it around. You could also make sure the leash is in the floor or out and about before hand so the dog can sniff it and get use to seeing it.

You could take it another step further and get a whole new leash/collar all together and then work from there.

I personally dont like the idea of using puppy pads cause it seems to be much harder to get them to go outside. You teach them to use the puppy pads and then have to reteach them to go outside.

But, either way I would stop using punishments. After a dog poops and walks away, it doesnt give it a second thought. If you catch the dog doing it, you can give a firm NO or whatever, take outside and praise praise praise when it goes outside.

With house breaking your ignore the bad (other than maybe NO, when causght IN the act, not after) and focus on the good.

RainInanna
August 4th, 2008, 09:57 AM
i have trained dogs for a good few years now and i have learned one valuable lesson..

What I guess is that by doing that the dog thinks "hm look, I can smell my poop right here on the kitchen floor, guess that's where poop goes" rather than that they shouldn't go. I don't think they really have the capacity to go "oh my owner really wants me to smell poop and kitchen because she DOESN'T want me to poop on the kitchen". You have to realize too, if you're punishing them they're scared and they aren't thinking straight.

One reason I prefer Cesar Milan's methods (The Dog Whisperer) is because he draws them back to behaviour in the wild pack - that is, instinctual, natural behaviour. You won't ever see a mama dog in the wild rubbing her pup's nose in poop. You will see them learning not to poop in the den. And you do learn that dogs are pack animals and love attention from others in the pack - if you ignore them, that's not good. If you praise them and give them ridiculous attention that is very good to them. And in the wild, dogs give attention through scent, touch, and sight. They don't scold eachother, they don't talk about things as a matter of course. So better to teach through body language, energy, and visual attention. Don't even look at them or pay any attention when they poop on the wrong spot. Get lots of loving attention when they go in the right spot.

If you apply human psychology to pups it's going to go wrong, IMHO. As people, instead we have to learn dog psychology and talk to them in their own language. Again, Milan goes through that at length.

At least, that's my view.

TuathaSidhe
August 4th, 2008, 10:08 AM
While I dont agree with everything that CM does, I do agree with the things that you pointed out Rain.

Going to go poop is probably one of the most nautal things any creature does. Creating a negitive energy around that can end up causing more harm than good and can send a person two steps for ever one step they go forward.

And aye, teaching a dog to go someplace inside is teaching the dog that its OK to go inside and not outside, making it harder for some dogs to do the change.

lioncastle
August 4th, 2008, 10:12 AM
If you apply human psychology to pups it's going to go wrong, IMHO. As people, instead we have to learn dog psychology and talk to them in their own language. Again, Milan goes through that at length.

At least, that's my view.

Absolutely agreed, 100%. Learn canine behaviour from the best of the modern writers and researchers - Pat Miller, the Coppinger's, Jean Donaldson. I'm not a fan of Cesar's, but I agree 100% that if we want to understand dogs, we need to learn about DOG behaviour.

Milan uses leash corrections, alpha rolls etc - really outdated methods. I wouldnt be caught dead doing these things to educate my dogs. I really like what Nick Dodman said here - "the results are immediate, but transitory". Amen to that.



"Critics
Despite his results, some view his methods as inhumane. Among his methods are quick leash corrections, quick assertive touches, and walks to drain energy. One controversial method he uses is the "alpha roll over" where he physically rolls a dog on its back. Patricia McConnell writes in her book The Other End of The Leash, "Well-socialized, healthy dogs don't pin other dogs to the ground. . . . Within their social framework, you're acting like a lunatic." (p. 138)
Dr. Nicholas Dodman, the director of the Animal Behavior Clinic at the Cummings School of Veterinary Medicine of Tufts University (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tufts_University), has said "Cesar Millan's methods are based on flooding and punishment. The results, though immediate, will be only transitory. His methods are misguided, outmoded, in some cases dangerous, and often inhumane." In a February 23 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/February_23), 2006 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006), New York Times (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_Times) article, Dr. Dodman says of Millan's show, "My college thinks it is a travesty. We've written to National Geographic Channel and told them they have put dog training back 20 years."[10] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cesar_Millan#cite_note-9)
Jean Donaldson, the San Francisco SPCA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Francisco_SPCA) Director of The Academy for Dog Trainers (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=The_Academy_for_Dog_Trainers&action=edit&redlink=1) states, "Practices such as physically confronting aggressive dogs and the use of choke collars for fearful dogs are outrageous by even the most diluted dog training standards. A profession that has been making steady gains in its professionalism, technical sophistication and humane standards has been greatly set back. I have long been deeply troubled by the popularity of Mr. Millan as so many will emulate him. To co-opt a word like whispering for arcane, violent and technically unsound practice is unconscionable." [11] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cesar_Millan#cite_note-10)
On September 6, 2006, the American Humane Association (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Humane_Association) issued a press release condemning Millan's tactics as "inhumane, outdated, and improper"[citation needed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed)] and called on the National Geographic Channel to cease airing the program immediately. [12] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cesar_Millan#cite_note-11)
In October 2006, the International Association of Animal Behavior Consultants wrote a letter to the National Geographic Channel regarding concerns "that the program may lead children to engage in unsafe behaviors." The Association called for a change in the program's rating of TV-G.
January 2008, DogTime.com (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=DogTime.com&action=edit&redlink=1) interviewed professional trainers associated with the APDT, Association of Pet Dog Trainers, and although these trainers pointed out that Cesar's TV show works with dogs needing rehabilitation that his methods may not be long term solutions. Trish King, Director of the Animal Behavior and Training Department at the Marin Humane Society observes: "In some of his shows, Cesar tells the owner how 'calm and submissive' a dog is, when to me, the dog looks shut down and fearful."

lioncastle

TuathaSidhe
August 4th, 2008, 10:27 AM
Some of the problems I find with CM is that the network doesnt show the whole thing...they cant, not enough time, lol.

I dont think its so much CM being the problem as much as people who watch just a show or two and think that they can then do what he is doing.

I dont think we can really blame HIM for the actions of others. How many people read ONE book and then all of a sudden they are experts in the Pagan community? We cant get rid of everything some unknowledgable person is going to do wrong. Then what would be the point in life? lol

As for "leading children to unsafe behaviors"

If a parent lets their child do these unsafe behaviors with or around dogs then they are idiots in my not so humble opinion. Children shouldnt be going around doing things like that to any unstable dog period, and a parent should know better!

I teach my kids that you NEVER EVER go up to a dog you dont know, you always ask to pet first and you bet them on the chest of under the head, not on top of the head or back. When it comes do a dog that is known to have some possible dangerous situations with it that need to be dealt with, you DONT let a CHILD deal with it!!!

That has more to do with parenting than it does CM or even dog training, etc etc etc.

NewWolf
August 5th, 2008, 12:00 PM
Hi,
I may be of some help....

if she is a shelter dog the WORST thing you can do is rub her nose in her accidents! Many people believe this works. It only makes the dog learn not to have an accident in front of you. Also if you scolded her and YOU did not SEE her pee/poop in the house the dog does not know WHY her is being yelled at. Dogs live in the moment they don't realize what they did a few minutes ago.
first off keep taking the dog out every hour or so especially after eating or playing. If the dog does peep/poop outside make a HUGE DEAL of it!!! LOTS OF PRAISE AND A YUMMY TREAT!!!!
If the dog doesn't pee/poop while outside go back in and try again in a half hour. if you see him start to pee/poop bring him outside RIGHT AWAY and again LOTS OF PRAISE!!

hope this helps a little bit....contact me if it dosnt work and i can give you more suggestions.

RainInanna
August 5th, 2008, 12:05 PM
"Critics
Despite his results, some view his methods as inhumane. Among his methods are quick leash corrections, quick assertive touches, and walks to drain energy. One controversial method he uses is the "alpha roll over" where he physically rolls a dog on its back.

I can't believe these people have actually watched his show. I have, and believe me, none of his methods are violent. For the touches, he stresses over and over that they must be gentle, that one can't be angry at the dog, that one can't use too much force, that they must be to get attention and not to cause pain, and so forth.

As to the rolls, dogs roll over to show submission to other dogs. Mine does it all the time. She doesn't think I'm neurotic; she thinks I'm the alpha and she is not.

RainInanna
August 5th, 2008, 12:08 PM
I dont think we can really blame HIM for the actions of others.

*nods* People doing stupid things and blaming it on seeing someone else do it is one of my big pet peeves.

Anyway, don't they do warnings encouraging people to consult an expert and not engage in Cesar's methods without expert advice?

I don't know about you, but I'm smart enough not to do some of the things he does with very aggressive dogs.

At what point should people be responsible for their own actions already.

lioncastle
August 5th, 2008, 12:21 PM
I can't believe these people have actually watched his show. I have, and believe me, none of his methods are violent. For the touches, he stresses over and over that they must be gentle, that one can't be angry at the dog, that one can't use too much force, that they must be to get attention and not to cause pain, and so forth.

As to the rolls, dogs roll over to show submission to other dogs. Mine does it all the time. She doesn't think I'm neurotic; she thinks I'm the alpha and she is not.

Oh, I'm sure Cesar isn't violent on the show, and I'm also not saying that this "alpha" stuff is violent - just outdated and, well - wrong.

http://www.4pawsu.com/cesarfans.htm


The whole concept of the dominance paradigm is now very dated. I'd suggets some reading for you:

Start with this:
http://www.4pawsu.com/pmdominance.htm

http://www.petstyle.com/dog/training_article.aspx?id=1876&section=Training%20Articles

and move up to this(technical):

http://www.dogwise.com/ItemDetails.cfm?ID=DTB767

Jean Donaldson is always great:
http://www.dogwise.com/ItemDetails.cfm?ID=DTB594

I have a million more articles if you are interested in this.
I am not my "dogs' alpha" - neither of us are wolves - I'm his friend, protector and partner - as he is for me. We both have rules and responsibilities. I don't have to tell him who has the car keys and can opener - he already gets that.

Hope this helps a little.
lioncastle

RainInanna
August 5th, 2008, 12:35 PM
I guess we must just agree to disagree :) Thank you for the different perspective and for sharing it so eloquently. It's a pleasure to share a discussion with you.

lioncastle
August 5th, 2008, 12:41 PM
We are all on a learning curve, and can only take in what we're ready for. I do hope you find some food for thought in the links I posted.
lioncastle

Amanda Mitchell
August 26th, 2008, 08:33 PM
Sugar is still having a few "accidents" here and there... but nothing too bad.
We have started taking her outside (with no leash on) to potty and she goes right away and then sprints back to the apartment door. It's really cute.
We got her used to going outside by taking her out first thing in the morning, once or twice in the afternoon, and before bed.
But the only thing is, she doesn't let us know (by barking or whining or scratching at the door or anything) that she has to go. I figure that is the only reason she is still having accidents is because unless we just happen to look over and see her sitting patiently (and silently)... or doing her "gotta go gotta go gotta go right now" dance by the door, we don't know that she has to go, and she doesn't know how to let us know, so she ends up just going potty in the apartment. ><

So I guess my question is... how do you train a dog let you when they need to go outside? I don't know why, but it seems like every other dog I've ever known just kinda "knew"... there was no real training involved - once they started being house broken, they automatically scratched on doors or whined or whatever to go outside. Not my Sugar... she is quiet... sometimes too quiet... LOL

Bronach Druid
August 26th, 2008, 09:56 PM
As far as the potty training goes...I think you have already gotten some wonderful advice, I really don't have anything to add. Just wanted to say Congrats! On your new baby! I hope with the love and patience you give her she will learn the rules and be a wonderful part of you life. :)






I am not my "dogs' alpha" - neither of us are wolves - I'm his friend, protector and partner - as he is for me. We both have rules and responsibilities. I don't have to tell him who has the car keys and can opener - he already gets that.

Hope this helps a little.
lioncastle

LC, I always respect your posts and I think you offer wonderful advice and insight. I have not read the links you provided yet, I will and will see if they change my mind. However, I do disagree with you on this a bit. All dogs come from wolves and are pack animals. I have never seen CM's show...I don't have cable, just to point out my opinons do not come from there, but I think it depends on the breed of dog you are dealing with. With my Basenji mix....I am the alpha and she does need to know this. I did use the roll over method with her when she was younger and it worked wonders. I don't advise it for every breed, every breed is different. I feel with breeds that are prone to being anti-social/aggressive, they absolutely need to know who is in charge. Even though she does know I am in charge, I can assure you, she is not a calm dog, she is mostly well behaved though, nor there a fearful bone in her body, not even with me, unless there is a thunder storm. :p
But like I said, I will review your links.

Morrigan_Wolfwind
August 27th, 2008, 04:55 PM
NOTE: I've edited out my more hysterical comments.


she had one "accident" (poop) got her nose rubbed in it, the poop and then she was locked in the cage with the poop for like half a hour... to show her that's where she is supposed to poop. (Don't worry... we are not that cruel... it's a decent sized cage)

Well-meaning or not, that is NOT the right thing to do if you're trying to house-train your dog. It doesn't matter whether you lock her into a shoe-box or a mansion, she will NOT make the connection between her pooping in the house and your anger, and she WILL view the crate as punishment. Which leads to the next thing:


She hasn't had a poop since then, so I don't know if that method of teaching worked or not... I guess we'll see...

It probably worked--but most likely not how you wanted. She's probably hiding it somewhere or eating it to get rid of her mess. Or, she's too scared to poop now that she knows she'll get locked up for it.


Now she has started urinating in the house (and NOT in the cage)... ARRRGH!!!!

Why is she doing this? Why does hate "outside so much? Is it because she was a stray maybe?

She might not be a typical panicky dog, but she probably thinks you're going to throw her out. She doesn't want to leave a safe, secure place, so she won't let you take her outside. It seems a lot like there's a trust issue with her: Unless she knows you aren't going to abandon her on the nearest crosswalk, she will not want to leave the house.

Until then, buy one of those special pet cleaners from a pet store so none of the poop smell stays after you clean.

Have her associate outside with good things. You mentioned treats don't work, so take her out every hour, wait till she calms down, then play with her for a few minutes so she doesn't associate it with something bad. Do this for a while, and eventually, she'll have to go to the bathroom outside.

When she does, give her as much attention as possible because she did the right thing. Even if she doesn't get it at first, she'll know that going to the bathroom outside will be WAY better than going inside. Be patient, and don't get mad at her. More importantly, please GODS do not lock her up anymore.

The good thing is that she's young (albeit an adolescent) so as stubborn as she is, she'll learn fast.