Masculine Moon, Feminine Sun…

[Shawn Cameron]

So putting aside the fact that the Sun is a huge ball of burning gas that the world revolves around, and that the Moon is a huge rock that revolves around the world, and that many believe Divine entities are beyond and above our human concepts of gender, let us discuses the Sun, the Moon, and gender in Pagan practices…

We see in many traditions that the moon is often referred to in feminine terms for many reasons, its gentleness for one and how it matches the female menstrual cycle for another. And in those same traditions the Sun in its radiating power that can burn as well as warm is referred to in terms of masculinity. We see many goddesses who are associated with the moon and many gods with the sun in quite a few different traditions.

But there are a few in which the roles of the masculine Sun and Feminine Moon are reversed. And strangely enough they had no known contact with one another to influence each other on this different outlook. Manni the God of the moon and Sunna the Goddess of the Sun in the Norse Mythos, and Tsukiyomi no Mikoto the god of the moon and Amaterasu the sun Goddess of the Shinto/Japanese Mythos.

What do you think? Any points to add, comments to make? From both the prospective of the masculine moon and feminine moon and masculine sun and feminine sun.

[HetHert]

The Egyptians also had personifications of a female sun and masculine moon.

Sekhmet and Bast, Hathor, Uadjet, Nut, and others are female solar deities

Khonsu, Tehuti, the Left eye of Horus so Horus could be considered in some contexts are male lunar deites.

[Rick]

...Lunari the God of the moon and Sunna the Goddess of the Sun in the Norse Mythos...

Lunari? Are you speaking of Manni?

[childofbast]

Many of the Goddesses in Celtic myth have solar aspects. It's arguable whether there are specific sun Gods and Goddesses, but I've not come across any Celtic Gods with lunar aspects yet, except in a modernized Wiccan sense.

~Melanie

[Rowan Darkmoon]

I think that it really doesn't matter except to the practioner and what they feel is appropriate for them. I personally feel more attuned with a feminine moon and masculine sun, however, I can see how attributes of either sex could be attributed to either (life and death cycle of the sun = the mother, whereas the moon is white = male sexual fluids, etc, etc....).

[Shawn Cameron]

Lunari? Are you speaking of Manni?

*head desk* yes... I'm so sorry... I don't know where that came from but that teaches me to type first thing in the morning... I'll edit it now, sorry about that.

[skilly-nilly]

This was one of the things I found interesting when I read 'A History of Pagan Europe' by Prudence Jones & Nigel Pennick

I was already familiar with the supposition that the Old Irish viewed the Moon as masculine (or as godded/spirited by a male spirit) and the sun as feminine/a female spirit. Or perhaps that the Winter Sun is female and the Summer Sun is male. I've always classed this as one of those things I can know without feeling---I KNOW that the Old Irish day begins at sundown but I FEEL that the day begins when I wake up in the morning. I see a sweet, mommy-like face in the moon so how can I feel that She is masculine when I can plainly see She is not?

But, I was fascinated to read, the Greco-Roman conceptualization of Moon/Diana and Sun/Apollo is actually not common. Most of the Baltic, Russian, Nordic, and Continental Celtic cultures saw the Guy Moon and Girl Sun as well.

In thinking this over I decided that the sweet face could be a mask. And some skinny, odd, quirkily-dressed fellow is holding it up to the World. HE's the one who's changeable and moody, the sweet face (the persona of the mask) is unchanging, so I've decided that the Moon is sort of transgendered.

The jury's still out on the Sun in my mythos.

[Fiamma]

But, I was fascinated to read, the Greco-Roman conceptualization of Moon/Diana and Sun/Apollo is actually not common. Most of the Baltic, Russian, Nordic, and Continental Celtic cultures saw the Guy Moon and Girl Sun as well.



I've come up with a minor, strictly linguistic argument that Apollo could be a moon god and Phoibe a sun goddess. I don't believe it (I also don't believe that he's the god of the sun...that's Helios, and Selene is the moon goddess)but I think it makes logical sense.

So Apollo is also known as Phoibos or Phoibos Apollon. According to Aesclyus, Apollo took the name Phoibos in honor of his grandmother, Phoibe.
Now, somehow or other, some people got it in their mind that Phoibe is a moon goddess- seems, as far as I can tell, to be a modern idea since I can't find an original source that even begins to hint at her being a moon goddess. but the name means "bright" or "shining" and she's a goddess so she must be a moon goddess, right?

Clearly *eye roll*

But if Phoibe/Phoibos mean "bright" and "shining"...then it could just as easily be said that Apollo is a moon god and Phoibe is a sun goddess.

Like I said, I don't beleive it, and I don't really intend for it to be taken seriously, but people see where I'm coming from, right?

On the whole, I don't see the sun and moon as being gendered at all, I simply see that various cultures have somehow or other found it appropriate to have the moon be one gender and the sun the other, however they may be assigned.

Oh, and we've forgotten Eos, the goddess of the dawn and Hemera, goddess of the day (some say they're the same goddess with different names) who may or may not be sun goddesses per se, but are definitely solar goddesses.

And then there are the Horae, the goddesses of the twelve hours of the day...and the other Horae, the three seasons of the year. Not goddesses of the sun, but I would say definitely solar-connected.

</nerd>

[Louisvillian]

From what I can tell, the moon being feminine and sun being masculine is the exception rather than the rule in ancient pagan religions.
In any case; I think that the gods associated with the sun and moon simply have chosen those things to be their symbols, and we have interpreted that different from culture to culture. Some interpreted it as the gods literally being those things, but as we know now, that'd make no sense at all. OTOH, that does not make that connection any less real, as symbols are very important elements of religious focus.

[Agaliha]

To quickly add, the Baltic pantheon has a feminine sun and masculine moon, see this thread for more info and links: Saule {Goddess of the Week} (http://mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=156852)

[skilly-nilly]

Now, somehow or other, some people got it in their mind that Phoibe is a moon goddess- seems, as far as I can tell, to be a modern idea since I can't find an original source that even begins to hint at her being a moon goddess. but the name means "bright" or "shining" and she's a goddess so she must be a moon goddess, right?

Clearly *eye roll*

That happens a lot in the various Celtic myths as well--- I agree completely that 'Brightness' is quite different from 'of the sun/moon'.
Sometimes brightness is just brightness, neh?:smoke:

I also agree that having the sun/moon as a part of Your representation does not then make You a Sun/Moon God/dess.




...and the other Horae, the three seasons of the year. Not goddesses of the sun, but I would say definitely solar-connected.

</nerd>

What are the 3 seasons?

That would perhaps be a distinction like the Irish system where the Winter Sun is a different Being than the Summer Sun? Interesting.

[FaeriPryncess]

Shawn Cameron said:
But there are a few in which the roles of the masculine Sun and Feminine Moon are reversed. And strangely enough they had no known contact with one another to influence each other on this different outlook.
Well, I think you can have Divinities be anything and everything the Western pantheons were not, somewhere else in the world, if you look closely enough.
Were were you going with this? In Sumer, Nanna, a male, was the lunar Divinity...Venus was also sometimes considered male (Eosphorus and Hesperus-Greece).
I do not think the cultures always were so distant from one another, either. You seem to be forgetting that though people may have been apart geographically, they were related culturally and had been a part of an bigger culture previously. This is why seemingly Asiatic/Eastern Gods appear in Baltic and Norse pantheons. Or why the Finns, Hungarians and Estonians have similar language and shared cultural elements.
I don't think it matters. It's more important to have a clear concept of the Divinity to are calling on when you do so, in order to access Him or Her, than worry about the 'sex' of the planet, per se. After all, what we could quibble about is the ultimate nature of Divinity, hehe. Tell me we'll know *exactly* what that is.

[Halstrom]

In Japanese Mythology they have a feminine sun and a masculine moon. Amaterasu is the Sun Goddess, while Tsukuyomi is the Moon God in Shinto.

[Windsmith]

The great thing here is that the Moon is a very nice hunk of cratered space rock, and the Sun (as we remember from They Might Be Giants) is a mass of incandescent gas. Not actually being gendered, they're open to whatever personification a culture needs from them.

So maybe Culture A needs a Sun that is the epitome of masculinity - strong, fierce, an all-seeing, unblinking eye - and a Moon that represents the best of womanhood - softer, more changeable, more attuned to natural cycles.

But maybe Culture Z needs a more feminine, maternal Sun - passionate, ever-vigilant, the source of life for the many "children" in constant orbit around her, - and a more masculine Moon - stoic and unchangable (remember that the "changes" we see in the Moon are just the reflection of the Sun's light; the Moon itself is pretty much what it is all the time).

It would be interesting to know at what point in the development of various religious and mythological systems the stories of Sun & Moon deities were first told, and what was going on in the culture. Maybe whether you got a feminine Moon and a masculine Sun or vice versa depended on what your people were going through at the time. Or maybe it was all whim. Who can ever know?

[Sage Rainsong]

Well I tend to see the Gods a little different than many. I tend to see them as avatars or immensely powerful spirits intensely connected to their respective energies, rather than some external spirit being that controls the natural phenomena. So, in my opinion, why not a sun goddess or a moon god? The sun and the moon aren't really male or female because quite frankly, they have no genitalia. I suppose an argument could be made for a masculine sun and a feminine moon in a yin and yang sense rather than a male female sense. The sun does project it's energy outward (yang) and the moon receives it (yin). On the other hand, you could say that the sun is feminine because it gives the energy needed to give life to crops and the moon is masculine because of its power to push and pull the tides. It's really all depends on the pantheon and the magical system that you work in and in my opinion, it's all good. :).

[Shawn Cameron]

Thank you very much for all of the replies so far. Honestly I wasn't trying to go anywhere with this (as I thought my first statement covered) and merely wanted to discuses the theory of masculine and feminine (not Male and Female) in relation and mythology as it related to the Sun and the Moon.

I suppose this all started when I was beginning to study the moon phases in Paganism and continued to run across the feminine moon when personally I felt drawn to Mani of the Norse Mythos and in previous religious studies, Amaterasu of Shinto.

Do I believe that there are really two gods being chases by Jotun wolves as they pull the sun and moon threw the atmosphere behind chariots… No… they are orbs of rock and gas in the space of the material plain that we live in… now could there be said gods pulling a mirror/sister/image of said orbs threw their own plain of existence, ie. The Nine worlds?... perhaps… but that is a discussion for another day.

I also believe that there is a difference between being a God of a planet/thing and being a god that uses it as a symbol, and as usual it would all depend on the mythos being examined.

Either way I have rambled enough for now, thank you all for your input so far it has been quite thought provoking and educational for the most part.

[Morgaine_cla]

Well I tend to see the Gods a little different than many. I tend to see them as avatars or immensely powerful spirits intensely connected to their respective energies, rather than some external spirit being that controls the natural phenomena. So, in my opinion, why not a sun goddess or a moon god? The sun and the moon aren't really male or female because quite frankly, they have no genitalia. I suppose an argument could be made for a masculine sun and a feminine moon in a yin and yang sense rather than a male female sense. The sun does project it's energy outward (yang) and the moon receives it (yin). On the other hand, you could say that the sun is feminine because it gives the energy needed to give life to crops and the moon is masculine because of its power to push and pull the tides. It's really all depends on the pantheon and the magical system that you work in and in my opinion, it's all good. :).
At the risk of throwing everything into confusion, I was taught that everything is whole and complete in itself. In other words, all things contain all elements and both polarities. The ones we perceive easiest are the energies that are dominant at the time of our observation... Which implies that things are not static. They change.

The Celts talked of the Big Sun and the Little Sun, and often describe the Sun as feminine (not female). Perhaps this is because that was the Sun's energy at that time. After all, polarities do reverse. Our Sun recently reversed polarity several times within a few weeks -- and of course, since everything is connected, when it reverses, so do the moon, the earth and the other planets in a ripple effect that likely continues ad infinitum. The mistletoe is harvested on the sixth day after new moon because on that day its polarity shifts (a little Druid secret for you) -- or at least it did in the place and time where the custom was created...

In which case, it's not a matter of ascribing a fixed descriptor or of choosing arbitrarily, but of remaining open and true to each moment's experience...

Just my two cents.

[David19]

The great thing here is that the Moon is a very nice hunk of cratered space rock, and the Sun (as we remember from They Might Be Giants) is a mass of incandescent gas. Not actually being gendered, they're open to whatever personification a culture needs from them.

So maybe Culture A needs a Sun that is the epitome of masculinity - strong, fierce, an all-seeing, unblinking eye - and a Moon that represents the best of womanhood - softer, more changeable, more attuned to natural cycles.

But maybe Culture Z needs a more feminine, maternal Sun - passionate, ever-vigilant, the source of life for the many "children" in constant orbit around her, - and a more masculine Moon - stoic and unchangable (remember that the "changes" we see in the Moon are just the reflection of the Sun's light; the Moon itself is pretty much what it is all the time).

It would be interesting to know at what point in the development of various religious and mythological systems the stories of Sun & Moon deities were first told, and what was going on in the culture. Maybe whether you got a feminine Moon and a masculine Sun or vice versa depended on what your people were going through at the time. Or maybe it was all whim. Who can ever know?

Good post, and it makes sense, I don't, literally, believe that the sun, moon, etc have genders, not in a traditional sense anyway, but, I do believe Gods, and other beings, etc, can contact humans, come to us, etc through them, make them their symbols, different Gods, in different cultures, will make either the sun or the moon reflect their gender, it might be male, or female, or neither.

That said, in the Sumerian religion, the moon is symbolic of Nanna-Suen, (or Sin, as he's sometimes called), interestingly, I've been told he was one of the influences, or is, Allah, in the Islamic faith, although, they might be quite different now (Nanna-Suen is more concerned with caring for his wife, Ningal, the lady of the reeds).

Here's a description of him:

From the Temple of Sumer (http://templeofsumer.org/)'s section on The Seven Who Decree Fate (http://templeofsumer.org/share3b.html)


5)Nanna: In Akkadian he or Sin or Suen: the god of the moon is a god who rides a boat across the sky. He seduced his wife Ningal the lady of the reeds rather romantically. The Sumerians saw the tide as Nanna caressing the reeds. Nanna was also responsible for the more gentle necessary floods. He was the inspiration for the chief Muslim god Allah

Also, the Sun represents Utu, the God of prophecy, law, light, etc (he gave law to humans, and deals with justive in Kur, the Sumerian underworld). He's also the reason, in Sumerian belief, vampires get destroyed by the sun (the sun represents Utu, and vampires would violate the Law of Hospitality, something that was very important in the ancient Middle East, and still is). From the same page:


6)Utu: the sun god was also the god of prophecy. In later times he became associated with the horse and the sun disk. His father was the moon god and in many myths his sister was Inanna. Utu was a friend to mankind in that he attempted to show man something of the fate that the seven had decreed for them. The sun god was also legalistic. He was the one who gave law down to mankind, and he meted out justice in the underworld. There are connections between him and the Aten from the reign of Ankhenaten as well as Mazda from Zoroastrianism.

Utu also, I think, influenced Apollo.

There are other cultures that have the sun and moon representing 2 male Gods.

[David19]

Well I tend to see the Gods a little different than many. I tend to see them as avatars or immensely powerful spirits intensely connected to their respective energies, rather than some external spirit being that controls the natural phenomena. So, in my opinion, why not a sun goddess or a moon god? The sun and the moon aren't really male or female because quite frankly, they have no genitalia. I suppose an argument could be made for a masculine sun and a feminine moon in a yin and yang sense rather than a male female sense. The sun does project it's energy outward (yang) and the moon receives it (yin). On the other hand, you could say that the sun is feminine because it gives the energy needed to give life to crops and the moon is masculine because of its power to push and pull the tides. It's really all depends on the pantheon and the magical system that you work in and in my opinion, it's all good. :).

Good, and interesting post :).

[Shosha]

It's funny... my husband and I are often talking about what's male and female... and something that seem to have both or neither gendered spirits.

I feel that way about most planets, moons and suns. To me they seem either to embody both or neither gender.

However, they DO have individual Spirits... :foh:
go figure.

[Agaliha]

What are the 3 seasons?


Ancient Greece only had 3 seasons: spring, summer and winter according to one site (another left winter out and only had autumn) :huh: Hmmmm. Winter would make more sense if you factor in the Persephone myth, but I'm not 100% sure. It's probably spring, summer and autumn...

More about the Horai are here:
http://www.pantheon.org/articles/h/horae.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horae -- there's more than those two, there's many "Horai" in mythology
http://www.theoi.com/Ouranios/Horai.html
There's even ones for four seasons, not three: http://www.theoi.com/Ouranios/Horai.html#Seasons
http://www.loggia.com/myth/horae.html

[RunningRiot]

I always wondered about this, especially since I read recently most older Cherokees believe that the sun was a female and the moon was male.

[IceLupa]

There is a sun god and a sun goddess, moon god and goddess. It appeals to someone, whoever they wish to honour and seek comfort or wisdom from. I believe there are the polar aspects, male and female.

Dawn in Greek myth was said to be a maiden sun goddess of the morning. Also it's my idea that Persephone is an internal solar goddess living within the earth, and she's got another name "Kore" (like the fiery hot earth's core) and by early Spring she returns to the earth's surface to make warmth, light and fertility grow.

Diana is the moon goddess and Appollo is her brother. I'm not sure if he's solar or lunar. In some Greek mythologies, goddesses blinded mortals with light as brilliant as looking at the sun directly.

Check out the book "The Sun Goddess" by Sheila McGrath.

[Fiamma]

Dawn in Greek myth was said to be a maiden sun goddess of the morning.

Eos, a goddess, yes. Hardly a maiden though...she had a love of carrying off the pretty young lads that caught her eye, some stories say as a result of a curse from Aphrodite :-)

http://www.theoi.com/Titan/Eos.html



Also it's my idea that Persephone is an internal solar goddess living within the earth, and she's got another name "Kore" (like the fiery hot earth's core) and by early Spring she returns to the earth's surface to make warmth, light and fertility grow.

Well...she is essentially a two-faced goddess. Kore is the young maiden of springtime ("Kore" means maiden or girl) the Persephone side on the other hand...well, I can't say that I would agree that we're talking about a solar goddess here, seeing as the name means destroyer or eater of light.




Diana is the moon goddess and Appollo is her brother. I'm not sure if he's solar or lunar. In some Greek mythologies, goddesses blinded mortals with light as brilliant as looking at the sun directly.

Check out the book "The Sun Goddess" by Sheila McGrath.

Apollo has no lunar associations, he is not a lunar god.

Which myths are you referring to where goddesses in Greek myth blinded mortals?

[Akasha]

At this point in time, I view the Sun and Moon as containing both female and male energies, and the way in which we may personify them as being one or the other can depend on our needs and experiences.

As for myself, I generally focus on the feminine aspect of the moon, since it is connected with the tides and the menstrual cycle. While I do not see the ocean as just being female, I subconsciously relate water to being feminine for a variety of reasons. I also find it interesting that the salinity of a woman’s uterus during pregnancy is the same as the ocean.

I tend to not over-generalize the Sun as much, and I will often say God and Goddess of the Sun, instead of just one or the other. Again, it can depend on my need for that time, my mood, etc. Since the Sun is life-giving, it would not make sense to me to exclude the Goddess aspect of it. But when I am thinking about the wheel of the year, I mainly refer to the Sun as being masculine. Perhaps there are different qualities of both the Sun and Moon that can be considered masculine/feminine, and we focus on certain qualities for different situations (at least I do). I think this could also be said for other aspects of Nature. We are humans, and there is nothing wrong with these perceptions. There is no right answer over the other. If somebody feels that a specific God or Goddess is lunar or solar, I do not see any harm in that, as long as they are aware of how their original culture perceived them to be.

[Hangatyr 13]

A feminine sun and masculine moon makes sense to me, and not just because I'm a Heathen.

To me, the sun is nurturing and absolutely neccesary for life, like a woman. It can also be very painful, like a woman. I once wrote a poem about a relationship that ended, where I compared my ex to the sun. I know, it's weird, but it made sense to me. I used to write really abstract stuff.

Also, the sun is there every day, as opposed to the moon, which is often "gone" (that is, not visible) on a regular basis. Growing up in a military family and heading one myself now, it makes complete sense to me. If the Old Heathen women were always home and their husbands went out occasionally to make war or hunt (or go a viking), then I guess it would make sense to them too.

For centruries, people in the western world have seen "the man in the moon". Personally, I think he looks like he's screaming and his eyes are bleeding, but that's just me. Werewolves are associated with the moon in western culture, and they're generally seen as more masculine. That's my take on it anyway. This is one of those subjects that's completely up to interpretation.

[Glowingsun]

I always go by feminine moon. maybe because I feel more drawn to it.

However, the Japanese (I have just found out yesterday while looking up different meanings to my daughters name) have a Moon God named Candra that is often ignored. They call this God something else. But when looking up the gender preference for the name Candra (though it sounds ultra feminine) can be a boys name which would make sense considering it ties with the Japanese Moon God.

[Agaliha]

However, the Japanese (I have just found out yesterday while looking up different meanings to my daughters name) have a Moon God named Candra that is often ignored. They call this God something else. But when looking up the gender preference for the name Candra (though it sounds ultra feminine) can be a boys name which would make sense considering it ties with the Japanese Moon God.

That's not Japanese. That's Sanskrit/Hindi and therefore Vedic and Hindu.
Chandra is the Vedic god of the moon, soma, etc.

http://www.goloka.com/docs/gallery/zodiac/moon.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chandra --


In Hinduism, Chandra (lit. "shining) is a lunar deity and a Graha. Chandra is also identified with the Vedic Lunar deity Soma (lit. "juice"). The Soma name refers particularly to the juice of sap in the plants and thus makes the Moon the lord of plants and vegetation. He is described as young, beautiful, fair; two-armed and having in his hands a club and a lotus. He rides his chariot (the moon) across the sky every night, pulled by ten white horses or an antelope. Although the antelope is the animal most commonly depicted with Him in iconography, the rabbit is also particularly sacred to him and all rabbits are under his protection. He is connected with dew, and as such, is one of the gods of fertility. He is also called Rajanipati(lord of the night)[1] and Kshuparaka (one who illuminates the night), Indu (lit. The bright drop). He as Soma, presides over Somvar or Monday.Plus there's tons of hymns to him in the Rig Vedas...

In Japanese (Shinto) pantheon, the sun is a goddess (Amaterasu) and the moon is male: Tsukuyomi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsukuyomi), the moon god.

;) Hope that helps. The site must have had the wrong origin referenced or something. With name sites that happens a lot :lol:

[Glowingsun]

O.k I totally read read the article I got that from so wrong. It said that Japanese literature largely ignored Candra the Moon God.

http://books.google.ca/books?id=vhAZEZD7weoC&pg=PA147&lpg=PA147&dq=candra%20japanese%20god&source=bl&ots=-jaAYxDXi5&sig=ODWce6FiTZ4hhmw1fcEeORtpX8A&hl=en

[Agaliha]

O.k I totally read read the article I got that from so wrong. It said that Japanese literature largely ignored Candra the Moon God.

http://books.google.ca/books?id=vhAZEZD7weoC&pg=PA147&lpg=PA147&dq=candra%20japanese%20god&source=bl&ots=-jaAYxDXi5&sig=ODWce6FiTZ4hhmw1fcEeORtpX8A&hl=en

So, what I'm wrong? :wtf:
Look, just because it's written in a book or website doesn't me it's 100% true. I found, on Google Books countless more that show the opposite, so whatever.

From the book you linked to: "...He says that the moon god is called Soma in Sanskrit" -- Soma = Chandra in Hinduism (they're also both Sanskrit words) which equals the Vedic moon god I posted info for. So your book is also referring to the same deity. Sounds to me like syncretism. The Japanese equaled the Vedic Chandra with their deities and possible used the name in their writings and worship.

I wasn't saying your wrong, but the source was...Chandra is a Vedic god. If you don't believe me, do some research. It's also very surely a Sanskrit word, not Japanese. Search a Sanskrit dictionary as well, they're online.

...

ETA: I did find this:

http://www.onmarkproductions.com/html/12-devas.shtml


Jyuuniten (Jyuniten, Jyuni-ten, Juniten)
Deva (Sanskrit) = TEN 天 (Japanese)

LITERALLY = Twelve Deva, 12 Celestial Beings
Especially Important to Japan's Shingon Sect

Doctrine-Abiding Deities Guarding All Directions
Highest Ranking Deities in Grouping Known as TENBU (http://www.onmarkproductions.com/html/tenbu-top.shtml)
See the Tenbu Page (http://www.onmarkproductions.com/html/tenbu-top.shtml) for Listings of Nearly 80 Deities

Origin : India, Hindi Mythology

The 12 Deva Guardians are deities of the 12 directions in Esoteric Buddhism, including the four directions and four semi-directions, up and down, and sun and moon. Deva, a Sanskrit term meaning celestial being, is rendered as "Ten 天" in Japan (the latter literally means Heaven). The Deva are deities borrowed from Hindu mythology and adopted into Chinese and Japanese Buddhism as guardians of the monasteries of Esoteric Buddhist. They appear frequently in Japanese mandala (http://www.onmarkproductions.com/html/mandala1.shtml). Among the 12, Bonten (Brahma) and Taishakuten (Indra) serve in the highest position. Statues of the 12 were quite prominent by the Heian Period (late 10th century AD). Also known as the 12 Gods Protecting the World -- the gods of earth, water, fire, wind, sun, moon, etc. For a larger listing of nearly 80 Deva, please click here. (http://www.onmarkproductions.com/html/tenbu-top.shtml)

*

Gatten (Skt. = Candra); Moon DevaSo, they "borrowed" them...basically.
So in a way, we're both right-- you that the Japanese had him in their pantheon, and I about the other stuff. It's just the origin I was debating, they weren't originally Japanese or part of the main Japanese pantheon, but the Vedic one (as well as the origin of the word "C(h)andra")

That's all I was pointing out. Seriously.

[Glowingsun]

nononono. i didn't sy YOU were wrong, i said I was wrong. I read an article wrong. Not you.

[Agaliha]

Ok, okay! It sounded like you were saying something else (that you re-read the article and stood by what it said so I was wrong). Sorry! I got a tad snippy there. _inabox_

[Glowingsun]

s' okay , it happens.

[*GrumpButt*]

I always thought of the Sun as male and Moon as female.. I guess it comes down to personal feelings :P

[Glowingsun]

I always thought of the Sun as male and Moon as female.. I guess it comes down to personal feelings :P


I always think the same way too. And it makes sense to me because I'm female and I'm drawn more to the moon.

[Agaliha]

It all depends on culture, tradition, pantheon, and mythology one is most familiar with and/or grows up with. Someone that practices Baltic paganism for example will see the sun as a goddess (Saule (http://mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=156852&highlight=saule)), whereas those that honor Hellenic gods will see the sun as a god (Helios, etc). I can see the reasoning in both views and both make sense to me, though like most my first view was male sun with feminine moon, I just think that's because it's the most common in our culture here.

[*GrumpButt*]

I always think the same way too. And it makes sense to me because I'm female and I'm drawn more to the moon.

Yup yup, same thing here!

[cydira]

I'm an odd duck then, because I see the Sun and the Moon as having no gender. The deities associated are male, female, and transgendered, but I have no primary deity associated for either the Sun or Moon.

[HetHert]

For me it depends on the principle or force the Sun and Moon are performing as to which gender they would be associated.

[Astara Seague]

It all depends on culture, tradition, pantheon, and mythology one is most familiar with and/or grows up with. Someone that practices Baltic paganism for example will see the sun as a goddess (Saule (http://mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=156852&highlight=saule)), whereas those that honor Hellenic gods will see the sun as a god (Helios, etc). I can see the reasoning in both views and both make sense to me, though like most my first view was male sun with feminine moon, I just think that's because it's the most common in our culture here.
:thumbsup:agreed

personally though I go with the sun male the moon female..

[_Banbha_]

Many of the Goddesses in Celtic myth have solar aspects. It's arguable whether there are specific sun Gods and Goddesses, but I've not come across any Celtic Gods with lunar aspects yet, except in a modernized Wiccan sense.

~Melanie

Then they are no longer "Celtic" AFAIC. :vanish:

[_Banbha_]

I wonder if people are attaching modern ideas of gender to ancient characters and myths here. Gender is quite fluid, always has been, with people who have a mix of gender attributes from birth, there are deities who switch and flow too...only in modern times it's something that has been hidden until quite recently. Doctors are still assigning sex to infants with ambigious genitals. I'm thinking it seems that people must be one or the other to suit modern sensibilities, expectations, and I should add comfort zones!

Surely there are many sun goddesses and the sun is given feminine attributes in many cultures, does that automatically mean the moon must be masculine?, Etc.

I'm not comfortable with the idea of gender being contextualized as a polarity. It doesn't fit the scheme of things or reflect nature to me. I'm not a dualist either so that may be why this topic nudges me a bit.

[*oonagh*]

why does god need gender at all (why would a god need those...er...parts...anyway?)?
to me all gods are one, the great spirit, which is at the center of all things (sun, moon, toast) and has no gender at all.

[HetHert]

why does god need gender at all (why would a god need those...er...parts...anyway?)?
to me all gods are one, the great spirit, which is at the center of all things (sun, moon, toast) and has no gender at all.

Gender engenders (hehehe) a certain quality or distinction that separates, imbues, or characterizes a thing or force with a concept.

example:
Masculine/Male =assertive force or principle Feminine/Female = receptive force or principle. These being the most basic of distinctions when asserting a gender role to a deity.

[Shawn Cameron]

I'm probably going crazy but I feel like we have strayed off topic a bit... or that there is some kind of miss understanding of what was meant in this post. so at risk of looking like a real naughty word, I quot my previous clarification in an attempt to re-clarify.


Thank you very much for all of the replies so far. Honestly I wasn't trying to go anywhere with this (as I thought my first statement covered) and merely wanted to discuses the theory of masculine and feminine (NOT Male and Female) in relation and mythology as it related to the Sun and the Moon.

I suppose this all started when I was beginning to study the moon phases in Paganism and continued to run across the feminine moon when personally I felt drawn to Mani of the Norse Mythos and in previous religious studies, Amaterasu of Shinto.

Do I believe that there are really two gods being chases by Jotun wolves as they pull the sun and moon threw the atmosphere behind chariots… No… they are orbs of rock and gas in the space of the material plain that we live in… now could there be said gods pulling a mirror/sister/image of said orbs threw their own plain of existence, ie. The Nine worlds?... perhaps… but that is a discussion for another day.

I also believe that there is a difference between being a God of a planet/thing and being a god that uses it as a symbol, and as usual it would all depend on the mythos being examined.

Either way I have rambled enough for now, thank you all for your input so far it has been quite thought provoking and educational for the most part.

I suppose I could also add the thought that what I think the real root of the question/attempted discussion was not weather some look at the moon as masculine and the sun as feminine but how they are seen with those traits, we have lists of why they are one way but not as many as to why they may be the other way to others.

I think examining these things can say alot about the people that saw these influential heavely bodys in these different lights, it may even explain some parts of our own mind/sprit in relation to why we I dentify with one over the other.

ie- the Moon is feminin because of (blank) the Moon is masculin because of (blank) ext.

I realy hope that all maid some form of sence... if not I will attempt to clarify again as I find this topic quite facinating.

[*oonagh*]

Gender engenders (hehehe) a certain quality or distinction that separates, imbues, or characterizes a thing or force with a concept.

example:
Masculine/Male =assertive force or principle Feminine/Female = receptive force or principle. These being the most basic of distinctions when asserting a gender role to a deity.

yes, i realize that. i guess i was just wondering why that is something of importance.

and this:

"I think examining these things can say alot about the people that saw these influential heavely bodys in these different lights, it may even explain some parts of our own mind/sprit in relation to why we I dentify with one over the other.

ie- the Moon is feminin because of (blank) the Moon is masculin because of (blank) ext."

explains it. what an interesting thought.