Satanic Wiccans?

[Emerald Oak]

I often hear, "There's no such thing as Satanic Wiccans because (true) Wiccans don't believe in Satan." Well, here's my thoughts on the matter:

It's true that Wiccans don't believe in embodiments of true evil, but who's to say that Satan is truly evil? Because a different religion altogether says so? Since when do we let other religions tell us what things are all about?

I'm thinking that if a Wiccan believes that Satan is just another balanced deity like the rest, then heck, Satanism in Wicca is perfectly fine and legitimate. After all, some Wiccans believe in the Christian God, why can't they believe in the Christian (yet not-so-Christian) devil?


PS: No, I'm not Satanic, I'm just defending them :p

[Nina]

I think that we assume Satan to mean the Satan of the Christian Church - the embodiment of evil, as you say. However, many people believe that the idea of the horned, cloved footed Satan was adapted to try to make pagan cultures think that their horned gods (Cernnunos, for example, with horns, and Pan with his cloven feet) were to be shunned. These Gods (from personal experience here!) are not the Satan of the Christian Church - ok Pan can be a little naughty, and very mischeivious, but not an evil deity! So, IMHO, Satan is part of the Christian culture, and not part of my beliefs. There is no such thing as true evil, to me, nor is there true good - everything is a mixture of light and dark for balance.

Nina

[Danustouch]

There is a related thread you may be interested in reading, Here:

http://www.mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?threadid=10555&perpage=15&highlight=Satan&pagenumber=4

[Mithrea]

Speaking personally, Satan is a Christian character that has nothing to do with my religion. As a figure depicted in Christianity as Nina put so well, if I were to include him in my pantheon, *then* I would be allowing Christianity to influence my path. It's not that not even considering him is me being influenced by Christianity, it's that Christianity and my path are two separate roads, in my mind never crossing and I don't look at what's over on the other road.

Now, Satanic religions are a different story as historically and philosophically they are not just separate religions unto themselves, but they are what *some* would call, "anti-Chrisitian cults."

[Theres]

i also don't think that most Satanists worship the 'Christian' devil either. he is more of an anti-Christian figure-head.
from most of the reading i've done, the thing that is worshipped in Satanism is ego. certainly the type of Satanism professed by Anton LaVey.
and there are Satanic cults that worship 'Set', as was discussed here...
http://www.mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?threadid=1048

[Emerald Oak]

I suppose you all make good points, but nobody said anything directly about whether or not they realyl believe there's such a thing as true Satanism in Wicca.

[manstranger]

I think that the point he was trying to make is the some wiccans think that the christian god exists at some level. If he exists, but is not exactly like the scriptures say, why can't satan?

Or something like that.

[Tammy Sullivan]

Okay well I do not believe in Satan or practice Satanism in any way. It seems to go against the teachings of wicca in general, as wicca is about balance and nature. Now of course with so many solitary eclectic paths, who can say what others do? But the key may here again lie in your perception. Do you percieve the dark to be seperate?
I like you Emerald Oak. You are not afraid to flat out ask what you want to know. I hope I helped a little.:D

[Theres]

Originally posted by Emerald Oak
I suppose you all make good points, but nobody said anything directly about whether or not they realyl believe there's such a thing as true Satanism in Wicca.

No.

[Mithrea]

Originally posted by Emerald Oak
I suppose you all make good points, but nobody said anything directly about whether or not they realyl believe there's such a thing as true Satanism in Wicca.

I think everyone answered personally because that is all we really can respond about. I can't tell you that there is no one that practices Wicca and includes Satan or Satanism in their practice because I don't know. :) But I wouldn't say it's impossible. You can believe whatever you want . . .

[Haedis]

Even when I considered myself Wiccan I believed in Satan. Not the Christian version but the modern Satanic version where Satan is defined basically as the true nature of humanity. If you think that humans are inherently evil then I guess you could call it an evil philosophy but I certainly dont. And though there are some parts Wicca that conflict with Satanism...in my opinion the two paths can coincide quite well depending on your definitions of each.

For example if you take Satanism as a constantly confrontational philosophy then it may not fit with the more "live and let live" path of Wicca. But there's nothing in Satanism (speaking LaVeyan here) that requires going against the Rede. Yeah they may advocate revenge rather than turning the other cheek but that doesnt mean you have to "harm", IMO. Sure some do rituals and spells that are unethical by general Wiccan standards but theres nothing in Satanism that says you MUST do those things. And yeah they can be pretty hostile towards the hypocrasy of the "right hand path" but you can follow the "right hand path" and not buy into the hypocrasy that they see.

So though I'm neither Wiccan nor Satanist I do incorperate a lot from both religions into my life and havent found any conflicts between their theologies that couldnt be quickly resolved. But I agree that most people wouldnt and dont see it as I do.

[Emerald Oak]

Thanks, everyone! I learned a few things; directly from what you've said, and from analyzing HOW you said it, I learned just a little more about human nature (although I can't put it in words) :p



Originally posted by Greta
I like you Emerald Oak. You are not afraid to flat out ask what you want to know.

Hehe, I wasn't voted "Most Inquisitive" in 4th grade for nothing :D

If you wanna talk more, PM me with your AIM name or ICQ number.

[Gwion]

How about Jewish Muslims? How about Pedophile Priests? Ok, well maybe that's not a great example...I must have imagined it.

[Annyka]

You can always look at Satan as the Angel cast out of heaven (Lucifer) ... Maybe he is just another one of those gods (maybe he is Pan) who got cast aside when Christianity took it's hold.. Does that make him evil/bad?

[Tammy Sullivan]

Originally posted by Annyka
You can always look at Satan as the Angel cast out of heaven (Lucifer) ... Maybe he is just another one of those gods (maybe he is Pan) who got cast aside when Christianity took it's hold.. Does that make him evil/bad?

MHO I don't know that I would want to look at it that way, at least not to try to incorporate that into a wiccan point of view. The concept of Satan on the Christain level (which would be the angel cast out of heaven ) is all about the anti-god, all the evil and negativity of the world and your soul is due to Satan. That relieves you of your obligations and just doesn't cut it for me. Pan is a complete other God with no connection in my mind.

[Theres]

well Haedis, i'm not sure i can take anything from Anton LaVey very seriously. the guys track record for being credible about ANYTHING (other than self-promotion) is not too good.

http://www.churchofsatan.org/aslv.html

[mol]

Originally posted by Greenman
well Haedis, i'm not sure i can take anything from Anton LaVey very seriously. the guys track record for being credible about ANYTHING (other than self-promotion) is not too good.

http://www.churchofsatan.org/aslv.html

Thats why I like him!

[mol]

Originally posted by Gwion
How about Jewish Muslims? How about Pedophile Priests? Ok, well maybe that's not a great example...I must have imagined it.

Wth is wrong with you?

[Raevyn]

"How can you call yourself a Satanist if you do not worship Satan?

The same way a person can call themselves Buddhist and not worship Buddha. Again, Satanists generally believe God is diffused through nature and consciously expressed through you! This explains why Lucifer refused to acknowledge any "authority" higher than himself. Satanism has nothing to do with the worship of a being personified as evil." ~ http://www.churchofsatan.org/faq.html

Also of great interest - http://www.satanism101.com/ - in particular see essentials.

My answer on can you be Satanic and Wiccan? Nope. Satanism is about self indulgence, Wicca is about harming none. And no I'm not saying with Wicca you can never harm anything or with Satanism you have to harm everything, but they are fundamentally different in terms of ethics. Further, to me Wicca involves working with polar opposite deities (God and Goddess, Lord and Lady, etc.) which doesn't work with Satanism (no worship), and fundamentally I think Wiccan Sabbats and Esbats are celebrated/worked in homage to those deities and nature (also not going along well with Satanism).

</$0.02>

[manstranger]

Originally posted by Gwion
How about Jewish Muslims? How about Pedophile Priests? Ok, well maybe that's not a great example...I must have imagined it.

The "pedophile priests" thing is a bad comparrison. People have been going against what their religion tells them that they are supposed to do for a loooooong time. IMO, it's the effort you put in to trying not to harm none, or trying to live by the rules of yr diety that counts, not the results you get from the effort. But anyway, pedophile is not a religion nor a philosophy, so i don't get why you'd compare it to a Satanic Wiccan person dealy.

I haven't really throughly researched wicca or satanism, so i don't see myself as knowing enough to comment. I've seen time and time again that other people who have not researched satanism do not share this unwillingness to speak about something they (and I) don't know much about.

[Amethyst Rose]

Originally posted by Raevyn
Satanism is about self indulgence, Wicca is about harming none.


I could be totally wrong in what you mean about this, so just bare with me for the couple seconds it takes to read this...

First of all, Wicca is NOT about harming none. There are too many conversations on this board about this very topic, so I don't want to go into that.

You're right that Satanism is about self indulgance.... it's about making yourself happy, by not denying your human nature. I don't see how that's so different from Wicca.... both religions are open about sex, drugs, alcohol, rock and roll :).... both religions believe that it is beneath them to hurt others....

The question at hand, I think, is how Satan, the deity fits into both religions, if at all he/it does.

That said, if I keep going on with this post I'll just be repeating what everyone else has already said......

[Raevyn]

*sigh* I knew this would happen.


First of all, Wicca is NOT about harming none.

First rule of Wicca, Harm None. Rede. You know. As I said, this doesn't mean you never harm anyone. It also means where possible you don't harm people. You can disagree, but personally I consider the Rede an essential part of Wicca.


I don't see how that's so different from Wicca.... both religions are open about sex, drugs, alcohol, rock and roll :).... both religions believe that it is beneath them to hurt others....

No, Satanists don't believe it's "beneath them" to hurt others. One of the 9 Satanic Statements, integral to Satanism, is using vengeance. Another important statement is the will to partake in all 7 sins - in particular wrath, as you can imagine , may result in actions that most certainly don't result in the same thinking as "harm none".

How about the 11 Satanic Rules of the Earth?


IV If a guest in your lair annoys you, treat him cruelly and without mercy.


XI When walking in open territory, bother no one. If someone bothers you, ask him to stop. If he does not stop, destroy him.

(all, again, from Satanism101.com)

And again, you can disagree, but personally I feel there is a huge difference between applying the Rede to daily life and making a point of destroying people if they bother you. There's no point in arguing about that all day so I suppose we must agree to disagree. :)


The question at hand, I think, is how Satan, the deity fits into both religions, if at all he/it does.

Check out the sites I mentioned including http://www.churchofsatan.org/faq.html and http://www.satanism101.com/satfaq.html - in Satanism Satan is an archetype representative of self indulgence etc. (specifically see statements etc.) but not a deity that is worshipped. In Satan Worship, obviously, however, Satan is a deity worshipped. As mol said somewhere, there are 2 "flavours" here.

[Raevyn]

I should add; I don't have personal feelings or dislike for either religions, and had considered myself Wiccan for years and for awhile considered following Satanic beliefs (tho I happen to like working with deity, even if that does make me deluded :))

[Amethyst Rose]

Originally posted by Raevyn
*sigh* I knew this would happen.

Hehe, yeah, that's why I said I didn't want to get into it...the Rede is a whole different theological discussion all together. That said....

First rule of Wicca, Harm None. Rede. You know. As I said, this doesn't mean you never harm anyone. It also means where possible you don't harm people. You can disagree, but personally I consider the Rede an essential part of Wicca.

Because this is off topic and there have been many discussion on it, this is all I'm going to say about it, just to clear up my point. Many people believe that the first "rule" of Wicca is not a rule, but a guideline, and some BTW's feel that it isn't an original Wiccan "rule" and therefore doesn't apply....

As to the rest of the post, I realize now that I probably shouldn't have posted because I wasn't 100% sure about what I was saying....it's been a long time since I last read up on Satanism, and had discussions on it, and I only slightly remember what I learned. Sorry about that.

[Raevyn]

some BTW's feel that it isn't an original Wiccan "rule" and therefore doesn't apply

Ah, that does clear up your point a bit. :)

[MasterMoon]

Why are you all so concerned with labels.?? Im a this or your a that..
You are the result of your actions. Nothing more nothing less.
Call it whatever you like. It doesnt matter.
Every person is unique in some way. To try and classify yourself as being this or that is to limit your being. Just be yourself. Or is that too simple?
This is why I reject every single belief system. I have no use for any of it. In my opinion, the dirt on the bottom of my shoe has more use than any belief anyone has ever dreamed up.
Just live!

[paygun]

Originally posted by MasterMoon
Why are you all so concerned with labels.?? Im a this or your a that..


MasterMoon, I think it's because a lot of Wiccans have a chip on their shoulder when it comes to Satanists. They've (Wiccans) been lumped in with them (Satanists) by a lot of people who don't know any better, and it creates a lot of animosity. I've met quite a few Wiccans who try very hard to respect another person's religion, as long as it's not Satanism. They're also the ones who squeal the loudest when someone does the same thing to them. It's pretty pathetic, really.

FLAME DISCLAIMER: My post began with "I think" because it's my opinion. If you disagree, then rock on.

[Ben Gruagach]

Perhaps some of the confusion is over the difference between "Witch" and "Wiccan." I expect there are Satanic Witches out there (in the same way there are Christian Witches, Jewish Witches, etc.) but Wiccan doesn't include the Satanic part as many previous posters here have pointed out.

To me, Wicca is what Gerald Gardner was promoting and any witchcraft variant that is based on Gardner's basic materials. The vast majority DO include the Wiccan Rede in their philosophy, either as a "rule" or as "advice" in some form. There are also plenty of witchcraft groups and individuals who don't really have much to do with Gardner's material, who don't have anything to do with the Wiccan Rede, who I think it would be incorrect to label as Wiccan. They're Witches.

And then there are those who are part of our larger religious community who don't practice magick at all as part of their faith - I think they're Pagan (and not either Witches or Wiccans.) I'm not sure you can be a Wiccan if you're not also a Witch, as Gardner's material was very much a magickal as well as religious system.

All just my opinion, of course!