Why do humans have to hunt?????

[Tiana_Ecarias]

Ok, this thought has been bugging me for a few days now, since I saw on the news thatg Bush is going after Saddam Huisain(or however you spell that).

Humans have hunted SOMETHING since as far back as humans have existed. Jews, Japs, witches, werewolves, Catholics, Lutherens, Druids, Pageans, Gypsies, Terrorists, the list goes on from there.

Why do humans have to hunt something down and destroy it? Now, don't get me wrong, I don't like Sadamm, nor do I like the idea of terrorists, but, why do humans have to hunt them down and kill them?

They have been hunting each other since there was a reason, and right now, the reason seems to be because they happen to have a different god, so the "other side" attacked us, and now we must strike back, and obliterate them.

*sigh* Oh well, thanks for listening.

Tiana_Ecarias

[Emerald Oak]

The reason is simple: People are neanderthals and always will be.

1) "I'm right, you're wrong, you must die now to prove my point."

2) The best defense is a good offense. That's why we hunt those who threaten us.

3) There's a wolf in all of us (or other hunter animal, but wolves are so much cooler :D)

Three reasons why we feel the need to hunt.

4) Oh, and pride. Can't forget pride.

[Tiana_Ecarias]

True, those reasons are good, but it still disgusts me that humans do that.... *sigh* Of course, I've been disgusted with humans as far back as I can remember, which is to damn long ago.

Anyways, i thought I'd put the thought out there, and see what other people said.

Tiana_Ecarias

[FlamedLilly]

I personally think it's a stem from the fight or flight syndrome. If your natural instinct is to fight and not run away then you have to hunt down what you can't see in order to fight it.

[shnen]

I think its a definate territorial thing.. but also, a control thing...

[Sequoia]

Because humanity in general (not really individual people, but the race as a whole) seeks to destroy itself.

Seriously. Look at history. The one constant thing you will see is people trying to kill other people, warring, conquiring, building and destroying and rebuilding and destroying. . . . civilization is something that gets to a point, destroys itself, then begins again. There's probably a cealing there somewhere, a limit.

But really. It's because humanity in general wants to die. That's my opinion anyway.

[Phoenix Blue]

I think it's instinct. Humans are predators - the will to hunt is in the building blocks of every cell in our body.

[Psyche Ague]

Originally posted by Puma Hime
Because humanity in general (not really individual people, but the race as a whole) seeks to destroy itself.

Seriously. Look at history. The one constant thing you will see is people trying to kill other people, warring, conquiring, building and destroying and rebuilding and destroying. . . . civilization is something that gets to a point, destroys itself, then begins again. There's probably a cealing there somewhere, a limit.

But really. It's because humanity in general wants to die. That's my opinion anyway.

Maybe humans all have a death wish. Everyone seems to be fascinated with death and killing. (Well, not everyone, obviously)

Tupid hoomies. :mad:

[Raevyn]

Originally posted by Phoenix_Blue
I think it's instinct. Humans are predators - the will to hunt is in the building blocks of every cell in our body.

Yep, the aggression and instinct to kill has to be expressed somehow/sometime/somewhere.

[Storm]

A great book on the subject is, I've mentioned it before sometime, Demonic Males. It is not a male bashing book. It is about the evolution of violence in humans and primates.

[SerenityMoon]

very well said, puma hime.

[StarryDancer]

It's mostly a lower brain thing. There's a visceral sense of power in hurting someone else -- I remember that from my very early childhood. And I remember by the time I was four years old being horrified I'd ever felt that way.

Some people never grow up.

[Eeluna]

Originally posted by Puma Hime
Because humanity in general (not really individual people, but the race as a whole) seeks to destroy itself.

Seriously. Look at history. The one constant thing you will see is people trying to kill other people, warring, conquiring, building and destroying and rebuilding and destroying. . . . civilization is something that gets to a point, destroys itself, then begins again. There's probably a cealing there somewhere, a limit.

But really. It's because humanity in general wants to die. That's my opinion anyway.

While I respect your opinion, I will not/cannot believe that humanity has a death wish. We can be selfish, ignorant and downright uncaring at times, but the survival instinct is extremely strong. Yes, their are individuals who focus on/ are obsessed with death, but that is an individual thing and not something that all or even most of humanity shares.

Emerald Oak made some good points, but underneath it all, I think people want to destroy what they fear. The fear makes them uncomfortable--probably on an unconcious level--so they want to *stop* the fear.

[SerenityMoon]

hrm. that's a very good point, Eeluna.....our survival instinct IS very strong.....and yet ironically, people will kill to survive. kind of twisted.

[TwilightWolf]

As to why Humans hunt now that is a very interesitng topic. I have to agree with Puma Hime with the fact that As a whole humanity has tried to destroy itself by either wars in the short run or not beeing able to look far enough into the future to see the affects of its own "advancement". But that is detracting from the point.

You can go all the way back to Darwinism and survival of the fitist.. no longer is it decided by enviornment but now it is decided by who has the most weapons and power to destroy the 'weak' or whoever is in their way.

Because the Terrorist Threatened Bush and his right as the Fitist they must be destroyed to increase the 'survival' of his power. With the current advancement in technology wich has decreased the physichal aptitudes of many of the younger age groups which in earlier times would have been seen as decreasing the likelyhood of survival, instead has increased the overall power of the socciety at the cost of the people. But in softening the base of the power does that turn as as a society from the hunter to the hunted?

In the last several years the number of people joining the US military with major undermanning as a result, as a society the United States ( I cannot speak for other countries because I do not live there nor know enough about them to make statements) has begun to weaken from the inside, making us look like much better prey to the hunters that exist out there. Even though we 'hunted' down the Terrorrists in Afghanistan the majority of the world wide organization still exists. Which has shown our lack of ability to hunt when our station as the fitist is challenged.


Always a wolf.
Sometimes a hunter.
but always a lover.

[WaterRaven]

I think it may be a survival thing, but i have always been facinated with destroying things, then rebuilding them to destroy them again or killing ants because they are so small and weak and easy to destroy. maybe its because we think we can take out something just to prove to ourselves that we can. i dunno, i could go on for ever. just my opinion.

water raven

[flar7]

Originally posted by WaterRaven
I think it may be a survival thing, but i have always been facinated with destroying things, then rebuilding them to destroy them again or killing ants because they are so small and weak and easy to destroy. maybe its because we think we can take out something just to prove to ourselves that we can. i dunno, i could go on for ever. just my opinion.

water raven

man is an animal in the basic sense, and most animals kill to survive.
Some even kill their own, most flee what they fear and if they cant
flee they try to destroy it. Also the need to defend self, family,
and territory is deep in us and other animals.

As for the military? We have been trying to and successfully
decreasing the size of our military since the middle of the 1st
Nixon term. No increases are planned. We try to rely on the
reserve to fill in the blanks, that and technology.

Survival of the fittest is still the driving force. You must be smart
(not necessarily to wise) to defeat your enemies and survive.
Developing a better club helps. Nature is still diminishing the
herd and thinning out the weak and sick, coming up with new
strains of viruses and sickness. Weather still is potent force as
well as other natural disasters.

[Tiana_Ecarias]

You all have a good point, and I agree with what you say, but I guess you could say I hope more for humans then just that.

You would think that who kbnows how many centuries of death, rape, war, and famine, caused by other humans, would teach them to atleast think a little bit before trying to kill each other.

:dis: I shouldn't be disapoitned, but I am, ah well. AS on efamous man said, "garbage in, garbage out." Put garbage in for your leaders and decision makers, all you're gonna get is garbage back.

Tiana_Ecarias

[Gwion]

Unless one if hunting to feed one's family, I am absolutely against it. Hunting has led to mass extinctions of species. Trophy hunters and especially trappers are the vilest form of scum this side of Mos Eisley. Nothing gives me more satisfaction than finding an iron jaw trap in the forest and destroying it. Sue me, I saw Bambi at an early age. "We must be cautious, for today Man is in the woods." It was the first time that I realized that humans could be Evil.

[Sequoia]

erm. . . I think it was more about humans hunting other humans. . .

[Hamelyn]

Okay, here's just a thought that occured to me. It's an idea I'm working into a story that I'm writing, and while I make no claims that it's the Truth, it's something to think about.

Humans are not technically natural predators. We're omnivores. Our teeth are designed to chomp up chicken salads; we've got the meat thing going on, and the vegetarian capabilities going on, and all that fun, versatile jazz.

The problem is that without a challenge, there's really no conflict. If conflict helps us grow (Darwinism, evolution, adaptation, and revelation... whatever your views I think we can agree that conflict helps us grow if we take it a certain way), and humanity in general came up with all that we have to help us survive wherever... let's face it. One of the only real "callenges" we can have nowadays is one-another. What else is a challenge to hunt? Homosexuality, religions, and ideals like Terror(ism) and Authority... what is more tempting to hunt and conquer, more challenging, than the ephemereal?

Anyways, my three cents. -Hamelyn

[Armitage]

Mmm. Agreed. Very interesing point.

[Valnorran]

People do nasty things to one another because it is easier to control and "correct" things in others than it is to do so within ourselves. It is always easier (and more fun) to spot the flaws in others than to recognize them within ourselves. Looked at in evolutionary terms, perhaps it makes a certain amount of sense to eliminate your competition for resources.

Also, hunters are the last people you need to worry about when it comes to driving animals to extinction. Sport hunters do what they do because they like it. They have a vested interest in seeing a species thrive. The money they pay in fees, licenses, etc. goes to game management. Those African countries that have banned the hunting of certain species are seeing those species wiped out by poachers, who are in it for the money, not sport hunters who, in my experience, have greater reverence for nature than most other modern humans because they actually participate in the ecosystem, not just read about it or watch it on Discovery.

[Gwion]

"A life belongs to the one who saves it, not the one who takes it."

Many serial killers of humans start out by torturing and killing animals, because "they like it." Maybe killing humans is how they show their reverance for nature.

You don't show reverance for something by stalking and killing it.

"If I did kill my wife, it would be because I loved her very much."~O. J. Simpson

Now if someone were to hunt hunters, THEN they would REALLY feel like a part of nature.

[Grey]

Humans are critters too. take a peak at "fight or flight instincts"

Also like other critters we have a heirarchy, fighting is a quick basic way to elevate oneself.

[Valnorran]

Sorry, Gwion, but I'm not following your thinking. By your reasoning, anyone who kills an animal is a serial killer in the making? Serial killers often have a history of starting fires, so every time I burn a rubbish heap I'm one step closer to being a murderer? Squashing cockroaches leads me down the road of the homicidal maniac? A sportsmen does not toture animals. He kills them with maximum efficiency. He is acting just like any other predator in the animal kingdom. In fact, he acts with a greater degree of refinement. If he is not certain he can harvest the animal quickly and efficiently, he passes the animal up. As I said before, they have a vested interest in seeing game species thrive. Their money, in the forms of licensing fees and such, usually goes to programs to ensure exactly that. Living here in the Sportsmen's Paradise, I know quite a few hunters. I've yet to meet one I would call sadistic or a serial killer in the making. That is not to say there are not sadists in the world. Obviously there are, but they are not sportsmen. Hunting dangerous game in Africa is always done at close range. Why? Because any fool can stick a .458 through an elephant's heart at 100 yards. But to get up close to a six ton animal in the thick bush, where his superior senses give him an advantage over you, to shackle yourself with rules of fair chase, to compete with the animal on the animal's terms... those are the acts of a sportsman. I know what you're thinking. The hunter has his powerful rifle. Yes, and the animal has several tons of enraged muscle, tusks, horns, or hooves. If you don't place that shot precisely into an elephant's of buffalo's brain, you're just going to piss it off, and remember, this is at very close range. Once its pissed and the adrenaline is flowing, stopping it is a hundred times more difficult. It can get its multiple tons in gear a lot faster than most people think and give you the distinction of exiting this life in a truly spectacular fashion. And even though the range is close, you'd be surprised how difficult surgical accuracy can be, knowing the consequences if you foul up the shot. And some people take it a step further. They'll use a handgun, which is far more difficult to shoot well than a rifle and not nearly as powerful. Others will actually use a bow and arrow. Why? All of this puts the hunter at a disadvantage, thereby making the hunt more challenging, which makes the hunt more rewarding. I've heard several hunters say how some of their finest hunts resulted in no trophy. The challenge is more important than the killing. I read the memoirs of another hunter who had been desperate to bag a lion. Towards the end of his safari, he found two magnificent males dozing in the shade after a meal. He walked away. Why? Because that would not have been hunting. It would have been assassination. It would have been conduct unbecoming a sportsman. Well, what about non dangerous game? Most of them still have senses superior to ours. Getting close to them to make a shot is the difficulty. If you don't place your shot well, they'll take off. So if you don't want to spend hours wandering the wilderness tracking them down, you'd best make that shot count. If he can't make the shot, the sportsman passes the animal by. Sneaking up on a deer is far more difficult than the movies make it look. We are also seeing increasing numbers of women entering the field of sport hunting. I don't know if you've had a bad experience with sadistic assassin wanna-bes calling themselves hunters or what, but please do not indict the group as a whole. Most of the ones I've known are very fine people.

[Gwion]

Exactly what is the emotional satisfaction that you get from killing? Is it the death-throes of the animal? Is it the blood? It's terror? The act of skinning it and removing the internal organs? Is it a fondness for collecting parts for taxidermy to display as a trophy of your manhood? I have worked my whole life with animal rescue, and all the rhetoric in the world will not convince anyone that killing is noble, manly, or anything but just killing. Your description of elephant hunting is disgusting. The last I heard, most species of elephant are endangered thanks to hunters. There is something fundamentally sick in anyone who takes joy in killing. All of the Pagans I know are healers and protectors of nature.

[Armitage]

You forget that death is part of nature. Growth without decay is a cancer and unhealthy. Some of the most Pagan-revered animals are hunters; wolves, eagles, cats. Or is it just that humans shouldn't hunt, even when doing so for food and with reverence? I personally wouldn't do it, but I'm not going to argue with someone who shows thought and honor behind their hunting, not just 'I want the horns'.

[Valnorran]

Well, Gwion, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. Just for the record, elephants are endangered from poachers, who took over in countries where sport hunting was banned. Once sport hunting was banned, there was no more incentive to manage the herds, which will happily scarf down a village's entire crop and leave the people with nothing. The animal products harvested from game animals goes to running the game management programs and animal parks. All the parts, even those on an elephant, are put to some use. The meat is usually a welcomed thing to villages populated by people who can't get enough protien and lack the ability to harvest such an animal. But, as I indicated earlier, you're not going to change my mind anymore than I'll change yours, so we'd best just let it drop.

[SerenityMoon]

o_o that description was kinda disgusting.....
*shudder* hunting....

[Tiana_Ecarias]

You all are rifgh about hunters, and poachers, but if you were to go back to the early 20th century, when people went to other countries for the hunt, a lot of species were wiped out. 3 sub-species of the Tiger, for example, or the Tasmanian Tiger, down in Australia, the dodo bird in America(yes, that was earlier then the 20th century), the American Buffalo, and the list goes on.

And they were hunted for the sport of it, the meat was used, the hides tanned, and stuffed. While it sounds disgusting, it was true. Humans hunt animals to survive, and as long as there is no waste, they are not poachers.

But, you take the men(and women) today, hunting tigrs, elephents, etc, they are poachers, because it is illegal to hunt these animals because of laws that they have made.

SO, in a way, I guess you can say humans have gotten better. No, because there are more who would rather have a fur coat of a rare animal, then have that animal alive. I guess you can say there are more mortals in this world now then there were back then. And, even some of the humans are wising up, realising that the earth isn't unending, eventually, there will be no more.

My father-in-law hunts, and he does not enjoy the killing of the animal, what he enjoys is trying to figure out how it thinks, so he can catch it. HE often also goes hunting with his camera, so he can get pictures of them.

Either way, you are both right, just have different ways of percieving it.

Tiana_Ecarias