David19
August 13th, 2008, 07:05 PM
I'm putting this here, 'cause, I've just been reading a Pagan article, and this guy seems to think secularism is "evil", and one of the "evil" offsprings of Christianity.
The article is here (http://www.egregores.org/tolerance.html), the main page is here (http://www.egregores.org/).
Basically, the site is:
devoted to investigating the ancient roots of modern Paganism.
On one page (http://www.egregores.org/101.html), it says:
A long time ago there were people who worshiped the Gods. Some of these people lived in cities - others lived in the countryside. Some of the them could read and write - others were illiterate. Some of the them were rich and powerful, some of them were poor and some of them were slaves. But they all worshiped the Gods. Then along came some mean people who told them to stop. "You are Pagans - stop it!!!" The mean people had big clubs and swords (and later on guns) but the other people didn't want to stop worshiping their Gods, so they said "you can't make us!" This was just what the mean people were hoping they would say.
Now, I'm not sure, if this guy is joking around with this paragraph, but, that's a very simplistic view of history, and he, basically, seems to want people to believe Christians are "evil", Pagans were/are "purely good and innocent", and there was no religious intolerance (let's just forget the Jews, the Druids, Dionysus, worshippers of Cybele, etc, I know, some say it was political, but, it was also religious persecution too).
Anyway, before I get side tracked again, I'll go back to the article that made me start this thread.
He, basically, states that you should be allowed to criticise other religions, and, for him, that means Christianity, and, yes, he's right, but, I don't agree with some of the statements he makes.
There can be no Pagan scholarship without a thoroughgoing critique of Christianity and it's evil offspring: Secularism and Colonialism
Historically there was never a bright line separating spiritual, religious, philosophical and metaphysical investigations from other areas of scholarship in the classical world. To the contrary, Pagan virtue and piety were considered essential both to the education of the young, and to the intellectual pursuits of adults. One need only look at Plutarch to see how inseparable Pagan spirituality was from Pagan intellectual culture as a whole.
The academic institutions of the modern world are descended directly from Medieval institutions that were tightly controlled by the Catholic Church. As a direct result of this, modern intellectual culture blindly accepts a false dichotomy between Christianity and Secularism. This dichotomy offers only a spiritual and intellectual blind alley to Pagan scholars - or to anyone in search of Truth.
Any Pagan scholarship of today that is worthy of that name must begin with a clean break with both Christendom and Secularism. Instead, we are all to likely to find Pagan scholars who are fearful to even clearly identify themselves publicly as Pagans - much less to voice a robust analysis of the 1700 year campaign by Christianity against all other religions. Some of today's so-called Pagan scholars satisfy themselves with "debunking" what little has been done previously to set the record straight
I'll say colonialism is an "evil", but, how in the hell is secularism "evil", I'm glad we live in secular countries, I think, it gives us more freedom - religious, political, sexual, gender, etc. I, personally, don't want to live in a world, where any religion dominates, be it Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Paganism, Hinduism, Buddhism, whatever, etc. How is secularism a "blind alley" to Pagan scholars, and what does he mean by "anyone in search of the Truth", is his definition of "Truth", "that Christians are all "evil""?. Personally, I think you can be a Pagan scholar in a secular society. I mean, there are many great Pagan scholars, from the people who write for The Pomegranate: The International Journal of Pagan Studies (http://www.equinoxjournals.com/ojs/index.php/pom) (the only criticism I have of them is, now, you have to pay, I think, to read the articles, which is a shame, although, fortunely, you can still read some of the articles on the Way Back When Machine version here (http://web.archive.org/web/20070203205906/chass.colostate-pueblo.edu/natrel/pom/old/index.html)), and, you have many others, from some of those at ADF (http://www.adf.org/core/), even some people here at MW, Sabina Magliocco (http://www.csun.edu/~sm32646/) (I think she's a Pagan now, if I remember correctly, I think I read, that she's a Gardnerian Wiccan?), etc. I don't see why this guy has such a big problem with secularism.
Many modern Pagan scholars seem to be obsessed with attacking the work of pioneering scholars like Margaret Murray, Jane Harrison, Robert Graves, Marija Gimbutas, Frances Yates and Mircea Eliade. Some of them have also been busily revising history to downplay the atrocities committed by Inquisitors and witch-hunters and other persecutors of Pagans and heretics down through the centuries. Are these scholars only interested in making sure that they appear harmless and tame to non-Pagans, so that they will be accepted? But even that is only part of the problem. The other part is that most of these scholars lack any real understanding the society that they live in. They passively accept the social, political and economic status quo - without ever suspecting that the "new world order" of the 21st century is, in fact, simply an obvious continuation of European Christendom's conquest of the world. Perhaps they partly realize the radical implications of that reality, and therefore choose to look the other way.
I don't know who Jane Harrison is (anyone want to tell me?), but, all the others, apart from Mircea Eliade seem to have had their work torn apart. Now, personally, I do think some Pagans are too obsessed with tearing apart Robert Graves work, especially since, and correct me if I'm wrong, he never said it was history, he specifically said, it was poetry, it's not his fault that some Pagans misunderstand his work, anymore than it's Muhammad's fault for Al Qaeda, or Jesus's fault for the KKK, or America's fault for Bush, etc. Also, while some scholars, like Carlos Ginzburg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlo_Ginzburg) (& here (http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=Carlos+Ginzburg&meta=)), and others, have said, there may have been a kernel of truth in Margaret Murray's work, and, maybe, they're right about that, they don't accept her thesis, and theories, as completely true, so, how is criticising her work, and the others, a "bad" thing, unless, you just want to use their "evidence" to prove how "persecuted and oppressed" Pagans are, or were, and how the Christians (or Jews, or Muslims, etc) are "evil" and the "big bad".
Also, when he says this:
Some of them have also been busily revising history to downplay the atrocities committed by Inquisitors and witch-hunters and other persecutors of Pagans and heretics down through the centuries
I don't know anyone who "downplays" those events, but, most Pagans realise we aren't living in the Middle Ages, and, you can't blame Christians for those events, anymore than we can blame modern Americans for wiping out, massacring, persecuting, oppressing, etc the Native Americans, etc. I also love it how he seems to think Pagans have been the only group(s) to be persecuted in history, he doesn't seem to want to admit the persecution that ancient "pagans" did to others, like the early Christians (but, then that doesn't count, does it?, I mean, damn, those Christians, they were "evil", "unaccepting", and "intolerant", etc for not worshipping the Gods, or the Roman Emperor, but, yet, if Christians asked us to worship the Christian God, why that would make them "evil" too, and it would be persecution and oppression, wouldn't it?!), the Jews ("but, they "killed" "The Goddess""), worshippers of Dionysus, worshippers of Cybele, the Druids, Atheists, etc. It's funny that he seems to pick and choose the persecutions, oppressions, murders, etc that make Christians (or other groups) look bad, but, not the ones that make ancient, and/or modern Pagans look bad.
Then the final thing of that article:
The other part is that most of these scholars lack any real understanding the society that they live in. They passively accept the social, political and economic status quo - without ever suspecting that the "new world order" of the 21st century is, in fact, simply an obvious continuation of European Christendom's conquest of the world. Perhaps they partly realize the radical implications of that reality, and therefore choose to look the other way.
So, now, Christianity and Secularism are responsible for the world we live in, I can only guess, that he refers to the modern problems we have (terrorism, Bush's "War on Terror", modern-day slavery (which does take place, it's just not as direct as it used to be), torture, etc). How are Christians and Secularism "responsible" for that?, how are Pagans, who don't bash Christians, and Christianity, or go on about the "evils" of Secularism, "making the world a worse place", how are they "ignoring the problems of the world", etc?. Personally, I think, if you're that concerned about the problems the world faces, you shouldn't blame it all on one, or more, group(s), 'cause, really, that's just BS, you should work with others to help fight them, and, there are many Christians, Atheists, other fighters, and defenders, of Secularism, etc that are working to fight the problems in this world.
Personally, I just don't see the problem with Secularism, or Christianity (or Judaism, or Islam, etc, and, yes, I know they have their fundamentalists, I'm not ignoring them, I'm just speaking in general, and, every group, tradition, religion, etc has their fundamentalists). Personally, I'm glad there are Atheist groups, who'll fight for secular things and ideals, and other defenders of Secularism (not all of who are Atheist, some believe in a God, or Gods, etc). I'm glad that the U.S. has the ACLU (http://www.aclu.org/), I'm glad the ADL (http://www.adl.org/) exist, I'm glad other defenders of religious freedoms exist, 'cause, IMO, that's what happens in a secular society - we have that freedom, in other societies, dominated by whatever religion, whether it is Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, Pagan religions, etc, if you were a different religion, or worshipped a different God, or Gods, etc, you weren't as respected, or accepted. In ancient Rome, most groups had to honour the Roman Gods, and the Emperor, you couldn't be an Atheist there, at least not openly (don't get me wrong, I do like learning about the Roman religion, the Roman Gods, beliefs, etc, and they are very interesting and very cool), etc, I, personally, think secularism creates more freedom for different groups, and I don't see it as an "evil".
Anyway, sorry about the long post, but, I just needed to get this off my chest, and I'd really like to hear your opinions, do you think secularism is "evil", if not, why not, if so, why?, etc. Do you agree with the site (I do recommend reading it, there's some good things on there)?, etc.
Thanks
I don't know who Jane Harrison is (anyone want to tell me?), but, all the others, apart from Mircea Eliade seem to have had their work torn apart. Now, personally, I do think some Pagans are too obsessed with tearing apart Robert Graves work, especially since, and correct me if I'm wrong, he never said it was history, he specifically said, it was poetry, it's not his fault that some Pagans misunderstand his work, anymore than it's Muhammad's fault for Al Qaeda, or Jesus's fault for the KKK, or America's fault for Bush, etc. Also, while some scholars, like Carlos Ginzburg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlo_Ginzburg) (& here (http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=Carlos+Ginzburg&meta=)), and others, have said, there may have been a kernel of truth in Margaret Murray's work, and, maybe, they're right about that, they don't accept her thesis, and theories, as completely true, so, how is criticising her work, and the others, a "bad" thing, unless, you just want to use their "evidence" to prove how "persecuted and oppressed" Pagans are, or were, and how the Christians (or Jews, or Muslims, etc) are "evil" and the "big bad".
The article is here (http://www.egregores.org/tolerance.html), the main page is here (http://www.egregores.org/).
Basically, the site is:
devoted to investigating the ancient roots of modern Paganism.
On one page (http://www.egregores.org/101.html), it says:
A long time ago there were people who worshiped the Gods. Some of these people lived in cities - others lived in the countryside. Some of the them could read and write - others were illiterate. Some of the them were rich and powerful, some of them were poor and some of them were slaves. But they all worshiped the Gods. Then along came some mean people who told them to stop. "You are Pagans - stop it!!!" The mean people had big clubs and swords (and later on guns) but the other people didn't want to stop worshiping their Gods, so they said "you can't make us!" This was just what the mean people were hoping they would say.
Now, I'm not sure, if this guy is joking around with this paragraph, but, that's a very simplistic view of history, and he, basically, seems to want people to believe Christians are "evil", Pagans were/are "purely good and innocent", and there was no religious intolerance (let's just forget the Jews, the Druids, Dionysus, worshippers of Cybele, etc, I know, some say it was political, but, it was also religious persecution too).
Anyway, before I get side tracked again, I'll go back to the article that made me start this thread.
He, basically, states that you should be allowed to criticise other religions, and, for him, that means Christianity, and, yes, he's right, but, I don't agree with some of the statements he makes.
There can be no Pagan scholarship without a thoroughgoing critique of Christianity and it's evil offspring: Secularism and Colonialism
Historically there was never a bright line separating spiritual, religious, philosophical and metaphysical investigations from other areas of scholarship in the classical world. To the contrary, Pagan virtue and piety were considered essential both to the education of the young, and to the intellectual pursuits of adults. One need only look at Plutarch to see how inseparable Pagan spirituality was from Pagan intellectual culture as a whole.
The academic institutions of the modern world are descended directly from Medieval institutions that were tightly controlled by the Catholic Church. As a direct result of this, modern intellectual culture blindly accepts a false dichotomy between Christianity and Secularism. This dichotomy offers only a spiritual and intellectual blind alley to Pagan scholars - or to anyone in search of Truth.
Any Pagan scholarship of today that is worthy of that name must begin with a clean break with both Christendom and Secularism. Instead, we are all to likely to find Pagan scholars who are fearful to even clearly identify themselves publicly as Pagans - much less to voice a robust analysis of the 1700 year campaign by Christianity against all other religions. Some of today's so-called Pagan scholars satisfy themselves with "debunking" what little has been done previously to set the record straight
I'll say colonialism is an "evil", but, how in the hell is secularism "evil", I'm glad we live in secular countries, I think, it gives us more freedom - religious, political, sexual, gender, etc. I, personally, don't want to live in a world, where any religion dominates, be it Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Paganism, Hinduism, Buddhism, whatever, etc. How is secularism a "blind alley" to Pagan scholars, and what does he mean by "anyone in search of the Truth", is his definition of "Truth", "that Christians are all "evil""?. Personally, I think you can be a Pagan scholar in a secular society. I mean, there are many great Pagan scholars, from the people who write for The Pomegranate: The International Journal of Pagan Studies (http://www.equinoxjournals.com/ojs/index.php/pom) (the only criticism I have of them is, now, you have to pay, I think, to read the articles, which is a shame, although, fortunely, you can still read some of the articles on the Way Back When Machine version here (http://web.archive.org/web/20070203205906/chass.colostate-pueblo.edu/natrel/pom/old/index.html)), and, you have many others, from some of those at ADF (http://www.adf.org/core/), even some people here at MW, Sabina Magliocco (http://www.csun.edu/~sm32646/) (I think she's a Pagan now, if I remember correctly, I think I read, that she's a Gardnerian Wiccan?), etc. I don't see why this guy has such a big problem with secularism.
Many modern Pagan scholars seem to be obsessed with attacking the work of pioneering scholars like Margaret Murray, Jane Harrison, Robert Graves, Marija Gimbutas, Frances Yates and Mircea Eliade. Some of them have also been busily revising history to downplay the atrocities committed by Inquisitors and witch-hunters and other persecutors of Pagans and heretics down through the centuries. Are these scholars only interested in making sure that they appear harmless and tame to non-Pagans, so that they will be accepted? But even that is only part of the problem. The other part is that most of these scholars lack any real understanding the society that they live in. They passively accept the social, political and economic status quo - without ever suspecting that the "new world order" of the 21st century is, in fact, simply an obvious continuation of European Christendom's conquest of the world. Perhaps they partly realize the radical implications of that reality, and therefore choose to look the other way.
I don't know who Jane Harrison is (anyone want to tell me?), but, all the others, apart from Mircea Eliade seem to have had their work torn apart. Now, personally, I do think some Pagans are too obsessed with tearing apart Robert Graves work, especially since, and correct me if I'm wrong, he never said it was history, he specifically said, it was poetry, it's not his fault that some Pagans misunderstand his work, anymore than it's Muhammad's fault for Al Qaeda, or Jesus's fault for the KKK, or America's fault for Bush, etc. Also, while some scholars, like Carlos Ginzburg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlo_Ginzburg) (& here (http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=Carlos+Ginzburg&meta=)), and others, have said, there may have been a kernel of truth in Margaret Murray's work, and, maybe, they're right about that, they don't accept her thesis, and theories, as completely true, so, how is criticising her work, and the others, a "bad" thing, unless, you just want to use their "evidence" to prove how "persecuted and oppressed" Pagans are, or were, and how the Christians (or Jews, or Muslims, etc) are "evil" and the "big bad".
Also, when he says this:
Some of them have also been busily revising history to downplay the atrocities committed by Inquisitors and witch-hunters and other persecutors of Pagans and heretics down through the centuries
I don't know anyone who "downplays" those events, but, most Pagans realise we aren't living in the Middle Ages, and, you can't blame Christians for those events, anymore than we can blame modern Americans for wiping out, massacring, persecuting, oppressing, etc the Native Americans, etc. I also love it how he seems to think Pagans have been the only group(s) to be persecuted in history, he doesn't seem to want to admit the persecution that ancient "pagans" did to others, like the early Christians (but, then that doesn't count, does it?, I mean, damn, those Christians, they were "evil", "unaccepting", and "intolerant", etc for not worshipping the Gods, or the Roman Emperor, but, yet, if Christians asked us to worship the Christian God, why that would make them "evil" too, and it would be persecution and oppression, wouldn't it?!), the Jews ("but, they "killed" "The Goddess""), worshippers of Dionysus, worshippers of Cybele, the Druids, Atheists, etc. It's funny that he seems to pick and choose the persecutions, oppressions, murders, etc that make Christians (or other groups) look bad, but, not the ones that make ancient, and/or modern Pagans look bad.
Then the final thing of that article:
The other part is that most of these scholars lack any real understanding the society that they live in. They passively accept the social, political and economic status quo - without ever suspecting that the "new world order" of the 21st century is, in fact, simply an obvious continuation of European Christendom's conquest of the world. Perhaps they partly realize the radical implications of that reality, and therefore choose to look the other way.
So, now, Christianity and Secularism are responsible for the world we live in, I can only guess, that he refers to the modern problems we have (terrorism, Bush's "War on Terror", modern-day slavery (which does take place, it's just not as direct as it used to be), torture, etc). How are Christians and Secularism "responsible" for that?, how are Pagans, who don't bash Christians, and Christianity, or go on about the "evils" of Secularism, "making the world a worse place", how are they "ignoring the problems of the world", etc?. Personally, I think, if you're that concerned about the problems the world faces, you shouldn't blame it all on one, or more, group(s), 'cause, really, that's just BS, you should work with others to help fight them, and, there are many Christians, Atheists, other fighters, and defenders, of Secularism, etc that are working to fight the problems in this world.
Personally, I just don't see the problem with Secularism, or Christianity (or Judaism, or Islam, etc, and, yes, I know they have their fundamentalists, I'm not ignoring them, I'm just speaking in general, and, every group, tradition, religion, etc has their fundamentalists). Personally, I'm glad there are Atheist groups, who'll fight for secular things and ideals, and other defenders of Secularism (not all of who are Atheist, some believe in a God, or Gods, etc). I'm glad that the U.S. has the ACLU (http://www.aclu.org/), I'm glad the ADL (http://www.adl.org/) exist, I'm glad other defenders of religious freedoms exist, 'cause, IMO, that's what happens in a secular society - we have that freedom, in other societies, dominated by whatever religion, whether it is Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, Pagan religions, etc, if you were a different religion, or worshipped a different God, or Gods, etc, you weren't as respected, or accepted. In ancient Rome, most groups had to honour the Roman Gods, and the Emperor, you couldn't be an Atheist there, at least not openly (don't get me wrong, I do like learning about the Roman religion, the Roman Gods, beliefs, etc, and they are very interesting and very cool), etc, I, personally, think secularism creates more freedom for different groups, and I don't see it as an "evil".
Anyway, sorry about the long post, but, I just needed to get this off my chest, and I'd really like to hear your opinions, do you think secularism is "evil", if not, why not, if so, why?, etc. Do you agree with the site (I do recommend reading it, there's some good things on there)?, etc.
Thanks
I don't know who Jane Harrison is (anyone want to tell me?), but, all the others, apart from Mircea Eliade seem to have had their work torn apart. Now, personally, I do think some Pagans are too obsessed with tearing apart Robert Graves work, especially since, and correct me if I'm wrong, he never said it was history, he specifically said, it was poetry, it's not his fault that some Pagans misunderstand his work, anymore than it's Muhammad's fault for Al Qaeda, or Jesus's fault for the KKK, or America's fault for Bush, etc. Also, while some scholars, like Carlos Ginzburg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlo_Ginzburg) (& here (http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=Carlos+Ginzburg&meta=)), and others, have said, there may have been a kernel of truth in Margaret Murray's work, and, maybe, they're right about that, they don't accept her thesis, and theories, as completely true, so, how is criticising her work, and the others, a "bad" thing, unless, you just want to use their "evidence" to prove how "persecuted and oppressed" Pagans are, or were, and how the Christians (or Jews, or Muslims, etc) are "evil" and the "big bad".