PDA

View Full Version : Just wondering...



Lavender
May 10th, 2001, 12:43 AM
I noticed the Lilith thread is closed. Hope I'm not doing anything wrong in posting here...

Just wanted to say thanks to all the great discussions on Lilith. You guys gave me lots of info & background for me to research on. Thanks a bunch! It was great to have such a diverse opinion.

amberlaine
May 10th, 2001, 09:42 AM
Yeah, why did the Lilith thread get closed? I thought we were all really onto something there.

:mad:

Mairwen
May 10th, 2001, 11:16 AM
It was closed because I felt it was turning into a religion-bashing thread and not an inclusive-to-the-issue thread. 90% of the discussion in that thread was irrelevent, and I refuse to have an argument of any type in my forum.

amberlaine
May 10th, 2001, 01:43 PM
I think its unfortunate that people can't disagree and even have a heated conversation. I think that all arguments presented in that thread were well stated, well presented, well argued, *and* that they each illuminated something of the godess in quesiton *and* that each post was constructive in the course of intercultural dialogue.

Nobody was name-calling, no one was pointing finges. People had some very strong opinions, but the conversation was still civil.

Its too bad. People tend to learn the most exactly from these kinds of threads. Its a shame you felt the need to nip a good discourse in the bud just as it was taking off.

Mairwen
May 10th, 2001, 04:52 PM
Thing is, this is a theme-related forum, and we need to keep that in mind when we post here. If we don't, I'll have Mol shut down the Forum or find a new moderator. It's that simple.

Kaylara
May 10th, 2001, 04:55 PM
I think that Mairwen was right, this forum has a specific theme, and conversation should be kept on topic. That's one of the reasons that we have moderators. We were getting off topic and not talking about Lillith anymore. I deleted my passage because It really isn't the place for it. And BananaBrain I will post why I chose my name in the New Pagans forum under Witch Names.

Kaylara

Mairwen
May 10th, 2001, 05:00 PM
Cultural history and so forth is fine ~ if taken to The History forum, please. Thanks!

amberlaine
May 10th, 2001, 06:30 PM
Then can you re-open the thread and move it to the appropriate forum? (Well, I know you *can*, the question is will you?)

Tho, I honestly do think that the thread *was* still about Lilith...but I'd love to see it moved rather than closed. I wanted some feedback on what I had to say.

Mairwen
May 11th, 2001, 04:48 PM
Well, I've been thinking about this, and if everyone involved in the converstation want it re-opened, I'll re-open it. However, I'll move it to The History forum because it's not a topic which belongs here in Gods and Goddesses. As well, any more talk about demons and demonesses, anything that comes across as culture-bashing, etc and so forth, the thread gets closed again.

Mairwen
May 11th, 2001, 04:51 PM
Originally posted by amberlaine
TTho, I honestly do think that the thread *was* still about Lilith...but I'd love to see it moved rather than closed. I wanted some feedback on what I had to say.

Yes, it was still about Lilith, but it had turned out to be more of a cultural-based discussion, which should be in The History forum, not here. As well, I felt the conversation had reached a point where it could go either way ~ good discussion or heated argument. The first time I saw the Lilith thread, I almost shut it down then and there due to the way the information was asked and presented, but I gave it a chance.

And I do stand behind my reasons for shutting it down.

So Mote it Be.

Kaylara
May 11th, 2001, 05:15 PM
Amberlaine~
I have a quick question for you about the Lilith thread... In your last post, you referenced your own page. But to me, it seemed like you were stating that those pages held fact, and not just your personal opinion. Could you tell me where I can find Historical Myths or facts about Lilith?

Kaylara

Mairwen
May 11th, 2001, 05:25 PM
Thanks, Kaylara. That's an excellent place to start!

amberlaine
May 11th, 2001, 07:13 PM
Kaylara: I'd have a look at http://pantheon.org and my personal favorite http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/humm/Topics/Lilith/

Those are both really good places to start with info about Lilith.

Mairwen:With respect to demons and demonesses, why do you feel that these are not topics that can be discussed in a god and goddess forum? There are a few pagan traditions in which traditional demons and demonesses are considered gods and goddesses. I dont think that the terms are necessarily derogatory--its all in how one looks at things. I, for one, consider Lilith to be both a demon and a Goddess. I have n othing but respect for Lilith, but I definitely classify her as occupying both categories.

bluecat
May 11th, 2001, 08:59 PM
Originally posted by amberlaine
Kaylara: I'd have a look at http://pantheon.org and my personal favorite http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/humm/Topics/Lilith/

Those are both really good places to start with info about Lilith.

Mairwen:With respect to demons and demonesses, why do you feel that these are not topics that can be discussed in a god and goddess forum? There are a few pagan traditions in which traditional demons and demonesses are considered gods and goddesses. I dont think that the terms are necessarily derogatory--its all in how one looks at things. I, for one, consider Lilith to be both a demon and a Goddess. I have n othing but respect for Lilith, but I definitely classify her as occupying both categories.



Thank you for your resource. I really think one of the issues was the fact that you were quoting yourself (your site) without a reference background. Then there was also the heavy characterization issue.

;)

Blue :cool:

amberlaine
May 11th, 2001, 09:35 PM
Thank you for your resource. I really think one of the issues was the fact that you were quoting yourself (your site) without a reference background. Then there was also the heavy characterization issue.

*scratches her head* So what? I wasn't *quoting* myself--I was linking to another site that extrapolated more fully on the issues I was discussing because I didnt feel the need to take up space here with those smae arguments. And furthermore, with regard to Lilith, the information I use on my site comes from both of of the above mentioned sources.

I think its very strange that people expect you to quote another source all the time...like because someone else said it, that automatically validates it.

There are very few "facts" about lilith. There are very few "facts" about gods and goddesses in general. For the most part, all of this is subject to personal interpretation. How the gods reveal themselves to us is an intensely personal experience, and one which no two people will share. Therefore, for me to present my opinions and experiences with Lilith are just as valid as the opinions and histories expressed on the the panthon site or any other site.

more importantly than all of this though, *is* the characterization issue. Mairwen said that she dindt like Lilith being called a demon. with all due repsect.....and? Just because she doesn't like it doesn't make it untrue. There are pagan traditions...and non pagan traditions...where Lilith *is* a demon. Just because the oderator of this forum doesnt hapen to hink Lilith is a demon doesnt mean that the rest of us can't characterize her as such. That's moderation gone awry. The entire point of having a message board and having dialogue is the ability to share and exchange information. The person who srated the Lilith thread wanted information on the being called Lilith. And the being called Lilith is regarded as both Demon and Goddess. There is *nothing* inherently wrong with that.

I respect the fact that Mairwen herself regards Lilith as a Goddess, as do I. I do not, however, think it is just to disregard another person's categorzation or characterization of the being called Lilith simply because Mairwen doesnt like it. I have nothing against you, Mairwen, and I hope it does not sound that Ido, but I do have a problem with the one and only true interpretation mindset.

Paganism is a very interest path because it doesn't beleiv ethere is one and only one correct path. Likewise, pagan religions do not assert that there is only one way to view and interpret the divine. I'm a pagan. I think Lilith *is* a demon. Am I wrong? Of course I'm not *wrong*--you just may happen to disagree. furthremore and more importantnly, my characterization of Lilith as a demon is *not* derogatory. It is the egregore I associate with her, which makes her, in my eyes, extremely powerful and yes to some extent dangerous (based on my own personal battles with her. )

Anyway This is turning into a rant which wasn't the point. However I do want to clarify the fact that whether or not everyone likes it, Lilitu is a demon. She is *also* a goddess.

Tigerwallah
May 11th, 2001, 10:25 PM
Originally posted by Mairwen
It was closed because I felt it was turning into a religion-bashing thread and not an inclusive-to-the-issue thread. 90% of the discussion in that thread was irrelevent, and I refuse to have an argument of any type in my forum.

Mairwen, I see what you are saying, but I must agree with Amberlaine. Part of being a pagan is that we celebrate our own individuality and differences. None of us follow exactly the same path. Therefor, some arguments are going to pop up. I find the arguements on these threads to be stimulating and informative. I think we all worry too much about content. From what I've seen, there are very few people in this community who take anything anyone else says as law. Instead, we research it to find out for ourselves. As for this discussion being cultural, isn't that how we know about most gods and godesses? I didn't know the names of my goddesses. It was through researching Egyptian culture, history, and civilization that I found them. I really believe it is a very fine line between the history behind the goddesses and the goddesses themselves.

One of the reasons I like our community is that it is not brimming with the rules and regulations of the organized religions that we abhor. When there is no one "truth" we can not be expected to agree at every turn. These arguments are presented in a mature forum. No one gets beat up or attacked personally here. There are no real "fights" just heated discussions. I know that in your great wisdom, you must see that.

Lavender
May 12th, 2001, 01:11 AM
Originally posted by Mairwen


The first time I saw the Lilith thread, I almost shut it down then and there due to the way the information was asked and presented, but I gave it a chance.

And I do stand behind my reasons for shutting it down.

So Mote it Be.

In my original first post on the Lilith thread, I did say I had checked several web site and that was the result of my search. It was NOT a representation of MY opinion. I did not know enough about Lilith to form any opinions yet. What I intended to do was to give a range of how Lilith was presented & I was interested in what this group knows about her. By no means was I trying to put Lilith down or her followers. I really didn't see anything wrong as to the way I asked the question. I guess I am not as articulate as some people.

Though, I do agree with Mairwen that the discussion did take a turn for the historical but it did seem to warrant this. I wouldn't mind seeing this thread continue, wherever the moderators feel fit.

I have to tell you that this whole thing has been weighing on my mind all day. I did not ask these questions to start arguements or to be contraversial. I asked because I really wanted to know. If I can't ask them here, where can I ask them? We encourage newbies to ask questions. Well, I have to tell you I felt like someone rapped my knuckles.

amberlaine
May 12th, 2001, 12:51 PM
I really believe it is a very fine line between the history behind the goddesses and the goddesses themselves.

Here, here!

bluecat
May 12th, 2001, 01:01 PM
Even though you were not quoting yourself it set you up as the primary source. Had you said, on your site, that your source was the Encyclopedia Mythica, it would have helped.



*scratches her head* So what? I wasn't *quoting* myself--I was linking to another site that extrapolated more fully on the issues I was discussing because I didn't feel the need to take up space here with those Mae arguments. And furthermore, with regard to Lilith, the information I use on my site comes from both of of the above mentioned sources.

I think its very strange that people expect you to quote another source all the time...like because someone else said it, that automatically validates it.

When you are setting something as a fact instead of opinion it is always helpful to do so, otherwise it just looks like ...

"amberlaine says it, so it must be true" ... don't misunderstand, I just used your name as an example, nothing definitive meant by it. :)

As far as the characterization issue is concerned, you read into that one, I did not say who was doing what.

It's all good, just keep in mind that it's not personal.

Blue

amberlaine
May 12th, 2001, 04:28 PM
The only time I feel it is important to cite my sources is if I'm writing an acadmic or scholarly paper. Seeing as how a message board is far from scholarly or acadmic, I dont see the need.

I dont recall having said, "Read this. this is the truth". i only offered information that would further explain *my position* on a subject. (Nevermind the fact that my position on the matter wasn't particularly original and therefore circuspect--its based on years of experiences and research and study, blah blah blah.)

anyhow, all of this is completely beside the point. I think this is a silly argument, and I bow out of it.