STILL looking for a coven :( [Archive] - MysticWicks Online Pagan Community and Spiritual Sanctuary

PandoraHealer

August 26th, 2008, 09:14 PM

*sigh*....

I have tried and tried and tried different covens/groups...

1.) went with my mom... they were NUTS-- had bazzar beliefs about the God & Goddess and had a meditation room... that smelled of pot... NOT sage- pot- I KNOW what pot smells like....

2.) went with a friend... pressured and pressured and pressured my friend to call one of the quarters and she is rather shy... so I jumped in and bailed her out... when we started the ritual, we walked down the hall in pairs- I wasn't "allowed" to stand with my friend- she was a few people behind me-they sang a song I didn't know or understand... and when we got into the circle- she was across from me... she was nervous anyway and I had to talk her into coming- and she was not happy... The ritual itself was great- I loved it.... but i didn't like how they pushed and pushed my friend and I wasn't terribly into the singing of something I didn't know...

3.) I went to this group alone... they asked me to call one of the quarters- which wasn't a problem- I felt more comfortable here... I called the quarter... and we did the ritual.. then I went to close the quarter- the first person used a snuffer, the 2nd clapped over the candle and it went out-- I myself blow gently -- I know many people don't blow candles out- but I do-- genle and steady - I can visualize the magick spreading into the air... anyway... they all FLIPPED out and yelled at me about how rude and disrespectful it was... yet they never said "this is what we do here"... the 4th person never finished... i defended myself then burst into tears- they were not telling me- they were YELLING at me-- I ran to my car and drove off... balling... I had a nasty email when I got home about how I had ruined the ritual and they had to bury the candle b/c it was "no good"... wtf?!

4.) Tried to start a group with some other friends... the friend I took to group #2 refused to come to this one... When we sat down to organize when to meet and what to do at the meetings... what to include in our rituals... they were totally unorganizesd and could never stay ON TOPIC... the first ritual we did went ok once we got started... it was a women's circle and one woman's HUSBAND refused to leave... so it was rather akward... the 2nd ritual I had to run to the store twice and help dig stuff out of boxes (rather mistreated items) ... then we started... met at 7 started at 11... geez...

Anywho.... any suggestions for finding whats right for me?
I've had some leads and had some mutual intrest but it's not gone far...

I'm really wanting to make the next step in my path... and I really feel like this is it... I want to be a member of a group...

*sigh* any help would be greatly appriciated...

~Ph

ignescentphoenix

August 26th, 2008, 09:30 PM

Don't be discouraged. You will find one if its supposed to happen. That was pretty rude of the person to send you a nasty email. Some people are kinda uptight. Im sure you'd rather find a coven that you click with, rather than just any coven. I used to be concerned about finding a coven. not anymore, solitary practice works good for me. :smile:

LisaT4P

August 26th, 2008, 09:42 PM

Perhaps a good way to avoid these kind of unpleasant situations in the future is to have a chat about what is expected of you BEFORE you attend a ritual? Get to know someone and ask questions about ritual etiquette in their circle:

Do you blow-out or snuff candles?
Do you ever walk widdershins (in some circles this is a huge DON'T)?
Do you have any particular songs, chants or litanies.. if so, will printed copies be provided for newcomers?
Will others (non circle participants) be present?
Are drugs or alcohol present at your circles?

This will go a really LONG way towards alleviating misunderstandings.

Granted, some of this should be thought of by the circle you are attending, but it is up to you to be responsible for your own spiritual journey and behavior. If you have to ask, do so. It will not only help you, but may help them to re-evaluate how they treat guests in the future.

After all, you are a guest, but one who is thinking of joining them, you have every right to interview them as much as they do to interview you.

Lunacie

August 26th, 2008, 10:40 PM

Holy crap! Those folks are unreal. There is no way I would be comfortable working with a group that acts like that. I think your reaction and your emotions were perfectly valid considering the circumstances.

Lisa has some very good advice - and something I needed to hear as leader of my group. Those are good things for me to remember to talk about with new folks who are considering joining our group.

I attended a group once where they began the evening by smoking pot. I passed because I'm so sensitive to the smell of it. Makes me quite sick. Funny, sage doesn't affect me at all, and most people say they smell very similar. Huh. I've been very lucky that the folks in my group don't wear perfume or aftershave, both of which make me quite sick as well.

We would never expect someone to call a quarter their first time in our group. We want them to spend a little time getting familiar with the way we do things and have a chance to ask questions and make suggestions. We would never put someone on the spot that way, especially if they seemed reluctant. What element would be willing to come and guard the circle if they got a half-hearted, possibly resentful invitation? Sheesh.

Lots of folks argue about how to put out the candles. Some feel very strongly that blowing them out is disrespectful. I don't see it myself. How is using air to blow the energies towards their purpose a bad thing? How is it using the air of our divine breath any more disrespectful than depriving it of air with a metal (earth based) snuffer. Why is the element of air more disrespectful to the element of fire than the element of earth is? Or the element of water for those who wet their fingertips and pinch the flame?

It was very immature of them to disrupt the ritual to chastize you for doing something that you had not been instructed was considered a bad thing by this group. Although, I must say there doesn't seem to be a group concensus on it since they used two different methods in the same ritual. I think disrupting a ritual to honor the gods by berating a guest much more disrespectful than blowing out a candle. Sheesh again.

I know it's a heck of a long drive, but you're welcome to visit my group and see how we run things, share the planning and the work, do our best to be respectful of each other, of the sacred space, and of the elements and the gods we invite to join us.

However, there are surely some other groups in your area, or at least closer than my group is, so don't give up yet. Keep looking and next time ask to meet with two or three of the members to discuss the kinds of things that have happened to you in the past and to learn how they do things and what is expected of guests - and of new members.

~Elise~

August 26th, 2008, 10:48 PM

PH--

We'll get together for lunch one day. Let me know when your mum is out of the hospital.

Elise

PandoraHealer

August 26th, 2008, 11:29 PM

Get to know someone and ask questions about ritual etiquette in their circle:

Do you blow-out or snuff candles?
Do you ever walk widdershins (in some circles this is a huge DON'T)?
Do you have any particular songs, chants or litanies.. if so, will printed copies be provided for newcomers?
Will others (non circle participants) be present?
Are drugs or alcohol present at your circles?

After all, you are a guest, but one who is thinking of joining them, you have every right to interview them as much as they do to interview you.

Writing all those down... :) -- I have absolutly zero problem with the interview 'process' --- makes me feel better-- especially if I can meet 2 or 3 of the members and not just be flung into a group setting with people I have never met... its nice to go there at least knowing someone elses name...

Lisa has some very good advice - and something I needed to hear as leader of my group. Those are good things for me to remember to talk about with new folks who are considering joining our group.

Lots of folks argue about how to put out the candles. Some feel very strongly that blowing them out is disrespectful. I don't see it myself. How is using air to blow the energies towards their purpose a bad thing? How is it using the air of our divine breath any more disrespectful than depriving it of air with a metal (earth based) snuffer. Why is the element of air more disrespectful to the element of fire than the element of earth is? Or the element of water for those who wet their fingertips and pinch the flame?

I know it's a heck of a long drive, but you're welcome to visit my group and see how we run things, share the planning and the work, do our best to be respectful of each other, of the sacred space, and of the elements and the gods we invite to join us.

However, there are surely some other groups in your area, or at least closer than my group is, so don't give up yet. Keep looking and next time ask to meet with two or three of the members to discuss the kinds of things that have happened to you in the past and to learn how they do things and what is expected of guests - and of new members.

With blowing out the candles--- what you said is EXACTLY how I feel! I use the breath the Goddess gave me to whisk the magic of the candle into the air to float all around me... I blew out my candle altar last friday and it was great--- each candle that went out, just electrified the room-- totally sensational...
On a different note- I have no problem at all using a different method -- I can snuff or clap or pinch (ouch) or what have you... I'm not that picky--- I prefer to blow but I'm not going to make someone else feel uncomfortable by me doing that... thats why I've never said "this is my way and the only way i will do it" ...

With calling the elements on the first go around... I think they used it as a way to get us to join in more.... not really realizing that it had my friend terrified....

I am occasionally up for a drive for a weekend out... wouldn't mind going camping sometime soon either... we might have to plan a weekend ritual for us to come up -- if you're up for a camping trip :) You could always stay home- just direct me to a camp site- :hahugh:

PH--

We'll get together for lunch one day. Let me know when your mum is out of the hospital.

Elise

You have NO idea how excited I am about this! I know you guys are busy with all you're working towards right now and I'm stuck in a rut with all the family stuff -- I really need reliable, adult, friends and a sense of family out side of my family crap... I want AWAY from drama drama drama--- I cannot stand it-- I want happy times, smiles, and well... fun...
:boing:
I've been to sooo many "groupy things" ... I'm just run ragged over all the crap I've seen....

~Ph

Darkest Eve

August 26th, 2008, 11:38 PM

Have you looked on Covenspace? What about Witchvox?

...just a thought.

I don't work with a traditional coven (not my gig) so that's the only thing I could think of.

Good luck!

watersprite

August 26th, 2008, 11:44 PM

I don't look for a group because ot all the insanity. So I consider this my coven. An open place of sharing and using rituals when needed, offering support when needed, sharing spells when needed. I would be happy to meet someone close to me(geographically).
Solitary, right now is a good thing for this too many times burned witch.

~Elise~

August 26th, 2008, 11:47 PM

Tanya

August 27th, 2008, 12:03 AM

Because my hubby and I come from different traditions.. we AWAYS sit down before the ritual and talk about how we would like to do things... with all the backgrounds and eclectisms... you are never going to get a group that does and believes JUST what you do... so we find we negotitiate it to a place where it is meaningful for both of us....

its more than an interview..... I think of it as 'a game plan"

Terra Mater

August 27th, 2008, 12:09 AM

So sorry for your negative experiences. The interview suggestions are a good start for alleviating misunderstandings, as is simply asking "What are the big don't in your group, especially during rituals.

The "don't" that some groups have about not blowing out candles is because it is believed that you will dissipate the energy of the circle and corrupt the ritual. For other groups its as simple as "this is not your birthday cake". They like to have different treatment of birthday candles and ritual candles in much the same way that others will spell magic with a k.

Whatever their reason, the rudeness they showed you is more likely to disrupt anything they do than you innocently blowing out a candle.

When our group has a new member, we not only print out "scripts" so they can follow along, but seldom do we ask a new person to take a "front" role in the ritual. We prefer that they come to circle with us a few times before they directly call a corner, set a quadrant altar, etc., so that both we and they can be sure that our energies are a good match. It avoids a lot of problems.

In addition, the first time a new person is taking a "front" role in ritual, we ask them to show up an hour early so they can practice the recitations, movements, etc. This makes things more comfortable all the way around.

Rather than looking for a coven, try looking for "crafting groups", as they are more used to helping new folks acclimate and less hung up on "coven traditions". They are harder to find in some places, but well worth the effort. You can also start one by advertising on witchvox that you are holding a workings group and that anyone that wishes to participate should bring some supplies with them (candle, favorite tools, etc.).

PandoraHealer

August 27th, 2008, 12:30 AM

The "don't" that some groups have about not blowing out candles is because it is believed that you will dissipate the energy of the circle and corrupt the ritual. For other groups its as simple as "this is not your birthday cake". They like to have different treatment of birthday candles and ritual candles in much the same way that others will spell magic with a k.

Whatever their reason, the rudeness they showed you is more likely to disrupt anything they do than you innocently blowing out a candle.
.

I see the other viewpoint of not blowing them out--- and it a totally opinion based decision for everyone.
For me its not just a puff and I'm done - like a birthday candle- but that is a great analogy!

I get down at the same level as the candle-- my mouth and face level with it instead of being above it--- and I squint my eyes and gently blow-- sometimes they go out in a flash- some times it takes a few seconds... while I blow and as I watch the smoke rise, I visualize the magic(k) floating up around me and into the air... I usually stay at each quarter for about a minute or two when I'm alone-- watching the smoke-- I think its beautiful...
but thats just me...

I have no problem snuffing and sometimes I do... I have no problem clapping them out... but it takes a few tries and I feel like a jackass...

I have looked on witchvox... thats how I found the 3 groups I went to-- the 4th was one I joined with friends... failed miserably... due to lack of organization... ugh... I'm a leo can you tell? :giggle:

I'm off to bed--- more progress soon I think-- :toofless:

~ph

LadyLuthien

August 27th, 2008, 12:53 AM

I think that if you're just joining or what not they shouldn't let you be in a ritual. It would make more sense for you to just watch and see how they do it. Besides the fact, any one who flips out on you like that is not worth your time. I really hope you find what you're looking for <3

Ivy Artemisia

August 27th, 2008, 03:28 AM

I see the other viewpoint of not blowing them out--- and it a totally opinion based decision for everyone.
For me its not just a puff and I'm done - like a birthday candle- but that is a great analogy!

I have no problem snuffing and sometimes I do... I have no problem clapping them out... but it takes a few tries and I feel like a jackass...

I have looked on witchvox... thats how I found the 3 groups I went to-- the 4th was one I joined with friends... failed miserably... due to lack of organization... ugh... I'm a leo can you tell? :giggle:

I agree with what most have said here. I'm really sorry for your poor experiences. It's always a good idea to ask the questions that Lisa suggested, but when we have a guest for ritual, we usually take the initiative and explain some of our steps, ie: that we face the quarters for quarter calling, that we may not always walk deosil in the circle- they'll notice that most of us are candle blowers. ;) But if they are expected to participate in some way, its a small way- like everyone writing something on parchment, lighting it and dropping it in a cauldron. Always with specific instructions. I would never ask a guest to call a quarter! That would freak *me* out at someone elses ritual. How would you even know when its your turn? Not every group starts in the same place! Our dedicants don't even call quarters until they've been through most of our dedicant training.

I'm sorry that you haven't found your coven family yet... its good that you are recognizing that these aren't for you though. I get so sad when people talk about their crappy coven experiences, and a lot of those happened because they joined a coven that wasn't right for them- settling, really. Or their expectations weren't clear on both sides. Its important for you to know what to expect from the group especially time-commitments, and in regards to anything that might bother you- ie: pre-ritual potsmoking.

Something that might help- even if they don't have a website, is ask if they have bylaws, a compact, or even a FAQ for you to look at. With our group- everything you wanted to know (and probably more) are in our bylaws. Our stance on personal drug use, illegal activities, and mental illness as well as who is expected to attend which events. Of course, that can't tell you if the coven members are out of their tree, either. But at least it might give you a feel for the coven.

If you were in southern California, I would totally invite you to one of our circles. I have a feeling you would fit in with us. Currently though, your commute would really suck.

Laoghaire

August 27th, 2008, 04:22 AM

It's really fascinating to read these experiences, though they were all bad...

I found myself a coven a couple of months ago, Kallisto, and I'm very proud to be a student. Yes, I am a student. I've been studying since June, when I received the first part of the class. Only in October will I be allowed to join the inner circle in a ritual. We are going to bless our new stone circle. One of my fellow students was ahead of me. She will become a Neophyte in September, and I will not be allowed to join the ritual.

I think it's strange that a coven allows you to get evolved in a ritual right away. Every coven has it's own rules and most of the time a very personal path. Before I get called into a circle, I want to be sure I know the coven and its members. And the 'rules'.

Jenett

August 27th, 2008, 08:09 AM

One other thing to think about (which people have already touched on) - look for groups which require you to get together *outside* of ritual first, so you can ask questions, and they can get a better sense of you. Personally, I want to meet someone before I invite them into my ritual space and home.

People who don't do that do worry me a bit: not just because of what it may mean for me (these kinds of misunderstandings or unpleasantness) but what it might mean down the road. After all, *I* might work out okay, but is that going to be true for every possible guest? The few times my former group didn't do this also ended up poorly, so I'm quite clear about this in my new coven.

(Public rituals in larger spaces where anyone's welcome are a different case - but it sounds like in all of these cases, you were entering into more private group.)

That said - we're generally not teaching the songs in advance (other than any chant for the working) because I've found that teaching them first and then singing them 20 minutes later in ritual does some weird things to the energy flow. Instead, we've been picking simple things that people can pick up as we go along if they like. (And I'm glad to teach them *outside* of ritual days.) If they don't wish to, they can listen respectfully - none of the songs is very long.

A few other questions I suggest asking:
- What's the general flow of things? (when should you arrive, when will ritual likely start, about how long might it last, is there social time afterwards, should you bring food to share? Anything specific to know or avoid here?)

- What would they prefer you do if something comes up that you're unfamiliar with.

- A discussion of any particular needs (allergies, mobility concerns, etc.) People who do this last minute mean I feel like I have to scramble to try and figure out alternatives, so I try to make sure to have this conversation at the time of invitation. I'd consider "I've had some miserable experiences looking for a group: can we talk in more detail" a totally reasonable request, too.

- Ask if there's someone you can 'follow along' with: someone without a major ritual role (calling a quarter is fine, but it shouldn't be the HPS/HP/similar role that is doing lots of different things) so you can figure out what to do. In my former group (a teaching-focused circle), we'd usually put a new person next to someone like this, so they could lean over and whisper a question if needed.

childofbast

August 27th, 2008, 11:07 AM

Sorry for your bad experiences. I've never understood the candle thing. I happen to agree with Lunacie - I don't see how blowing out a candle is any different from snuffing it with metal or your flesh. What irks me more is that people can never give me a good reason for only snuffing. Disrespect? According to who? I understand the importance of traditions, but if you can't even tell me where this trend started or attach some lore to it, then it seems more like BS to me.

That being said, I find it insane that the group would even allow you to take part when you're so new to them without even doing an in-depth ritual briefing. It's always a good idea to make sure everyone is on the same page.

I wish you the best of luck in finding a spiritual home.

~Melanie

~Elise~

August 27th, 2008, 11:27 AM

She is going to come to a face to face meeting with Rick and I about possibly joining our group.
Being in Tulsa...without her naming names...I could probably tell you which group was who by the comments...which I think is kinda funny (and sad, both)
We don't invite anyone into our home (which is where most rituals are held) without meeting with them in person first. I'm not giving out my home address to just any joe schmoe.
I have no problems saying no to people if I don't think they're not going to be a fit. I steer them to another group in town. LOL
We're not a coven, per se...we function more like a pack, to be honest. I am HPs, but that's because that's the term most people are comfortable with and understand...that's my function.

Elise

LisaT4P

August 27th, 2008, 01:45 PM

I've never understood the candle thing. I happen to agree with Lunacie - I don't see how blowing out a candle is any different from snuffing it with metal or your flesh. What irks me more is that people can never give me a good reason for only snuffing. Disrespect? According to who? I understand the importance of traditions, but if you can't even tell me where this trend started or attach some lore to it, then it seems more like BS to me. I believe this is a hold-over from Ceremonial Magick. Alot of Golden Dawn, etc. was incorporated into Gardnerian tradition. :)

PandoraHealer

August 27th, 2008, 01:53 PM

A few other questions I suggest asking:
- What's the general flow of things? (when should you arrive, when will ritual likely start, about how long might it last, is there social time afterwards, should you bring food to share? Anything specific to know or avoid here?)

- What would they prefer you do if something comes up that you're unfamiliar with.

- A discussion of any particular needs (allergies, mobility concerns, etc.) People who do this last minute mean I feel like I have to scramble to try and figure out alternatives, so I try to make sure to have this conversation at the time of invitation. I'd consider "I've had some miserable experiences looking for a group: can we talk in more detail" a totally reasonable request, too.

- Ask if there's someone you can 'follow along' with: someone without a major ritual role (calling a quarter is fine, but it shouldn't be the HPS/HP/similar role that is doing lots of different things) so you can figure out what to do. In my former group (a teaching-focused circle), we'd usually put a new person next to someone like this, so they could lean over and whisper a question if needed.

Added to my list... I'm on the back of the page now--- hehehe

For me meeting someone OUTSIDE of thier home or mine- makes me sooo much more comfortable. I have always gone to ppl's houses and met them, or to a UU church and felt... left out... some of the groups just totally ignored me being there most of the time which felt... crappy... I can sit alone quietly and talk to nobody AT HOME in my Pj's... :T
I like meeting the 'leader' of the group (*creepy voice* "take me to your leeeader") :giggle: -- sorry-- I like meeting the leader of the group so I know whats expected of me and so I hear directly from the 'person in charge' whats going on, whats going to happen-- but I also like to meet some of the other memebers-- realizing that the 'person in charge' will be busy setting things up and what not- Knowing more than just the one person- gives me someone to talk to right off and ease into meeting the other people... if that makes sense... :)

She is going to come to a face to face meeting with Rick and I about possibly joining our group.
Being in Tulsa...without her naming names...I could probably tell you which group was who by the comments...which I think is kinda funny (and sad, both)
We don't invite anyone into our home (which is where most rituals are held) without meeting with them in person first. I'm not giving out my home address to just any joe schmoe.
I have no problems saying no to people if I don't think they're not going to be a fit. I steer them to another group in town. LOL
We're not a coven, per se...we function more like a pack, to be honest. I am HPs, but that's because that's the term most people are comfortable with and understand...that's my function.

Elise

HA! I didn't think about you or anyone else in the area recognizing the groups--- I knew not to name names-- still pretty funny.... however traumatizing, still funny...

If it doesn't work out with us- please don't send me back to one of 'those' groups- the #1 group was many many years ago... I would croak if I went back... the 'screamer group' that chased me to my car was rather recently... and the most traumatic *shudder* --- still can't believe how many different groups there are here... and how incredibly bazzar they are sometimes... lol

We'll have to have lunch sometime soon- and we can see eachother at PPD too- I'm volunteering over in the children's area and bringing Spiral Scouts info so I'll be around both days :)

~Ph

Jenett

August 27th, 2008, 05:58 PM

I like meeting the 'leader' of the group (*creepy voice* "take me to your leeeader") :giggle: -- sorry-- I like meeting the leader of the group so I know whats expected of me and so I hear directly from the 'person in charge' whats going on, whats going to happen-- but I also like to meet some of the other memebers-- realizing that the 'person in charge' will be busy setting things up and what not-

This is one of those more complicated issues for me. I lean the way you do.

On the other hand, I trained in a teaching focused group, where people interested in the group were asked to attend 5 intro-type classes (once they'd been to a couple, they'd also get invites to guest-friendly rituals.)

Our HPS would obviously be at the rituals, but like many classes of this kind, the attritition rate between first contact and actually coming to ritual is *very* high - for every 10 emails we got expressing interest, we might get 2-3 who show up for classes, and maybe 1 who made it through all five classes and seriously considered the group.

That gets tiring after a bit, and this kind of thing can lead to burnout, so usually two people (active initiates in the group, but not the HPS or HP) would usually teach the intro classes, and either our HPS or HP would show up for the 5th one to answer any questions about the group. Interested seekers would obviously usually have met them at ritual before that, too.

This wasn't ideal, but really, it's the only way we found to make sure our HPS didn't burn out, and so she had time and energy to focus on stuff that other people couldn't do as easily for the group.

My new coven, we've got a somewhat more involved process (an email with questions that's designed to take about 30-60 minutes to write: nothing overly detailed, but some general background/experience/what you're looking for stuff, but enough that if someone is having second thoughts about if we're the right place, they'll just not return it or ask more questions in email), and then meeting in a coffee house, and I expect to do it with the other covenmember (I'm the HPS).

That said, I also anticipate we'll have our days when someone doesn't show. And that those will be frustrating and tedious and annoying. (Well, sorta. I adore my covenmate, and it's not like sitting around talking to her is a waste of time. But it also helps that we don't anticipate doing the meeting new people thing too often.)

All of that said - I do think it's really important to be friendly to guests. In my former group, which was larger, usually we'd ask one or two people to focus on the guests (answer questions, include them in conversation) before ritual while others were getting ready. (usually the HPS and people with larger roles would be getting ready, and the people being hospitable would be students who'd been around for a while or recent initiates, who had less to prepare.)

After ritual, it was then easier to get into talking, and the people who'd been talking before ritual could say "Oh, you should talk to HPS about [hobby], she does that too." or whatever else might help make some connections.

Jenett

PandoraHealer

August 27th, 2008, 06:27 PM

This is one of those more complicated issues for me. I lean the way you do.

Our HPS would obviously be at the rituals, but like many classes of this kind, the attritition rate between first contact and actually coming to ritual is *very* high - for every 10 emails we got expressing interest, we might get 2-3 who show up for classes, and maybe 1 who made it through all five classes and seriously considered the group.

My new coven, we've got a somewhat more involved process (an email with questions that's designed to take about 30-60 minutes to write: nothing overly detailed, but some general background/experience/what you're looking for stuff, but enough that if someone is having second thoughts about if we're the right place, they'll just not return it or ask more questions in email),

All of that said - I do think it's really important to be friendly to guests. In my former group, which was larger, usually we'd ask one or two people to focus on the guests (answer questions, include them in conversation) before ritual while others were getting ready. (usually the HPS and people with larger roles would be getting ready, and the people being hospitable would be students who'd been around for a while or recent initiates, who had less to prepare.)

Jenett

I looove the idea of the email 'survey' type thing --- I personally would love to see a version competed by the HPs --- after I emailed my answers... to see how I compared... On the other hand-- I have been solitary for many many many years and only dabbled in joining a group...
The last group I tried -- the ones that some of our friends "started" that failed miserably b/c of the unorganization--- It really hit the spot for me-- I loved the group interaction and was amazed at the level of energy that could be produced...

I am really looking foward to finding the group that I was meant for...

I can totally understand what its like to have ppl not show... I run a rescue and i get 5-10 calls a week for us to take animals in... and maybe 2-5 will show up... makes me worry sick about where the other animals ended up...
Makes me crazy...

The idea of having one or 2 ppl. focus on the guests is FANTASTIC!! In a group with only 4 members- I can see that that wouldn't be all that necessary-- but if the group is over 10 or so ppl... I think having 1 or 2 ppl that can talk to the guests and help them meet everyone-- would really be great--

Awsome Ideas!!
~ph

Jenett

August 28th, 2008, 07:54 AM

I looove the idea of the email 'survey' type thing --- I personally would love to see a version competed by the HPs --- after I emailed my answers... to see how I compared...

This is one I've considered - on the other hand, some of it is stuff I'd prefer to discuss in person. (Though, granted, it's a little easier for people to find out stuff about me if they do a little looking: I have a public religious-focused blog, so it's not like there isn't quite a bit of info about my background/how I go about things out there for the curious. I do need to do a post there about my religoius history at some point, but I think that's the only thing we ask in the email I haven't covered.

The idea of having one or 2 ppl. focus on the guests is FANTASTIC!! In a group with only 4 members- I can see that that wouldn't be all that necessary-- but if the group is over 10 or so ppl... I think having 1 or 2 ppl that can talk to the guests and help them meet everyone-- would really be great--

Yep. It doesn't make as much sense in a smaller group - but then, the way we're planning to work this is that they'd already have met 2 of the group members in the initial discussion (and as we have more people, we might rotate that around: we expect there will be 2-4 discussion evenings or social activities before someone is invited to ritual.)

Lunacie

August 28th, 2008, 09:27 AM

tellmethetruth

August 28th, 2008, 12:28 PM

I read your post last night and didn't answer, because I didn't know what to say, but it bothered me all night long. I even woke up thinking about it. It just gives me a stomach ache, thinking about what you're going through and how you've been treated.

I don't know your situation - like if you work with any cool people or not or if you have good relationships with other pagans/wiccans in real life.

I work with another pagan, and I know she attends all of the pagan festivals. Perhaps she belongs to a coven, I don't know - I'm not sure if she's a witch or not. But anyway - she knows a lot of wiccans and I just kind of put it out there to her that I'm looking for a coven. I'm not going to push it, though, because if she hasn't hooked me up with a coven of her own accord it's probably because she knows, intuitively, that I wouldn't fit in with the group she knows. The last thing I would want to do would be go to a coven where I didn't fit in and have the sort of experiences you've been having.

So - what I do is wear my talisman where people can see it and ask questions if they want. Most people don't understand the significance of it and think it's just a pretty necklace, but there are those who do. I have nice conversations with them and kind of network. When it's time to meet people I can actually perform spells with, it will happen. If I push it, it may happen too soon and I may have a nasty experience like yours.

Frequently, we really want things before we're spiritually ready for them. I figure when I'm ready the universe/goddess/god will guide me very easily in the right direction. If it happens easily and in a stress-free manner, then I will know it's right.

I hope you will not experience anything so negative again.

Ivy Artemisia

August 28th, 2008, 01:47 PM

Originally Posted by Lunacie:
The energies when a big circle works together are awesome, but before and after the ritual the big group breaks apart into smaller groups and it doesn't feel like "family" so much. People talk about things without coming to a concensus among the whole group. We already have times when someone will bring up something and I'll say "I don't remember that discussion," turns out it took place after I left or on a weekend when the others got together and I couldn't make it.

I totally agree with you. I'm part of a big social witchy womens group, and there are definitely cliques within the group. We rarely circle, but when we do, we usually raise a giant amount of energy. However, In my coven, the perfect size for us is 8 (though we are much less than that right now). We take a great deal of time and effort to avoid cliques within the group, and make sure that when discussing coven biz, that we are all on the same page. I can't imagine doing that with 13.

Originally Posted by Jenett:
it's a little easier for people to find out stuff about me if they do a little looking: I have a public religious-focused blog, so it's not like there isn't quite a bit of info about my background/how I go about things out there for the curious

I just wanted to say that I really enjoy your blog.

Originally Posted by PandoraHealer:
The idea of having one or 2 ppl. focus on the guests is FANTASTIC!! In a group with only 4 members- I can see that that wouldn't be all that necessary-- but if the group is over 10 or so ppl... I think having 1 or 2 ppl that can talk to the guests and help them meet everyone-- would really be great--

This is a really great topic... I think I'm going to start a post in the group management about handling guests... I started to reply, but I don't want to take your post too far off topic! :)

Originally Posted by tellmethetruth:
I work with another pagan, and I know she attends all of the pagan festivals. Perhaps she belongs to a coven, I don't know - I'm not sure if she's a witch or not. But anyway - she knows a lot of wiccans and I just kind of put it out there to her that I'm looking for a coven. I'm not going to push it, though, because if she hasn't hooked me up with a coven of her own accord it's probably because she knows, intuitively, that I wouldn't fit in with the group she knows.

Networking is an easy way to find out about local groups. Same goes for joining all the Pagan yahoo-groups or social groups in your area. But with networking, at least you will be able to find out more about a group by word of mouth and avoid bizarre stuff like you've been dealing with!

childofbast

August 28th, 2008, 02:00 PM

I believe this is a hold-over from Ceremonial Magick. Alot of Golden Dawn, etc. was incorporated into Gardnerian tradition. :)

Well I realize that that's generally the case with most things in Wicca. But take the Guardians of the Watchtowers business. That's also a carry-over from Ceremonial Magic. Many of the Wiccans I know use it. When I researched who these guardians actually are, it didn't seem to make sense. The origin of the tradition and the beliefs of the people I know who use it just don't mesh well which makes me question why they use it. I've come to the conclusion that people just decide "Ok, someone/ some book told me that it's done this way so that's how I'm going to do it and I'm not going to even bother to find out why or what it actually means." That mindset bothers me a lot.

~Melanie

Lunacie

August 28th, 2008, 04:11 PM

Well I realize that that's generally the case with most things in Wicca. But take the Guardians of the Watchtowers business. That's also a carry-over from Ceremonial Magic. Many of the Wiccans I know use it. When I researched who these guardians actually are, it didn't seem to make sense. The origin of the tradition and the beliefs of the people I know who use it just don't mesh well which makes me question why they use it. I've come to the conclusion that people just decide "Ok, someone/ some book told me that it's done this way so that's how I'm going to do it and I'm not going to even bother to find out why or what it actually means." That mindset bothers me a lot.

~Melanie

That is so true, and that's one big reason I call myself an Eclectic Wiccan rather than a Traditional Wiccan. The business of calling guardian angels seems out of place for a belief system that doesn't acknowledge the whole god-angels-humans heirarchy. I prefer to work with the elements themselves rather than "go through" an agency like angels. But I'm not just throwing things out willy-nilly either. I understand why the Watchtowers were called by the early Wiccans and believe that my own methodology is just as good, and for reasons that resonate with me and my group whereas the Watchtowers do not resonate for us.

I have a feeling I'm not expressing this very well, but both girls are home from school today still, and just got back from the doctor's office where he gave them a clean bill of health to go back to school tomorrow. Meanwhile they are so bored and making so much noise I can't think properly.

PandoraHealer

August 28th, 2008, 05:48 PM

I read your post last night and didn't answer, because I didn't know what to say, but it bothered me all night long. I even woke up thinking about it. It just gives me a stomach ache, thinking about what you're going through and how you've been treated.

I don't know your situation - like if you work with any cool people or not or if you have good relationships with other pagans/wiccans in real life.

I hope you will not experience anything so negative again.

See group experience #4 .... we *were* great freinds... and the rituals we did to together were great... but everything surrounding the ritual but some of us in a nasty mood that was hard to get rid of before the ritual began.... I am a total leo-- I have lists and directions for everything- I plan EVERYTHING and things go great when everyone else puts forth the effort. (My friend that I took with me to group #2 but refused to come to group #4- says I have a list for how to wipe my ass I'm so organized it makes ppl crazy)...
Anyway- the group failed miserably b/c I was the only one that seemed to care... one member was always late- and nobody had the things we needed which left me or one other person always going to the store to get things using gas and money last minute... chaos makes me loopy....

It wore on our friendships very quickly and I've stopped going and I don't think that without me they can do anything... depressing really...

now, On the other hand-- The friend I took with me to group #2 but refused to try group #4--- I would love to have with me. She wants to experience this stuff and be part of a group too. She's just starting out- she's been pagan and done rituals for several years but like me, wants the group interaction....

Hopefully the meeting with Elise will go good and she'll like me :) --- then maybe I can introduce her to my friend and we'll both be much happier.

~Ph

watersprite

August 28th, 2008, 05:55 PM

Hey! Thanks!

~Elise~

August 28th, 2008, 06:06 PM

Well, we could talk with both of you at the same time if you want...might make you both feel better.
We have houseguests this weekend, but possible next!

Elise

PandoraHealer

August 28th, 2008, 06:14 PM

Well, we could talk with both of you at the same time if you want...might make you both feel better.
We have houseguests this weekend, but possible next!

Elise

OH! OH! OH!

You just get awsome-er by the minute!! (see- I even made a new word for you- :giggle:)

I would love that and I'm sure she would too!

I'm pretty open next weekend as well- My son will be 3 on the 2nd and his b-day party will be at some point during the weekend but I'm sure I can do both- especially since I WANT to do both!! :)

Thank you again for the opportunity :) !!

~Ph

Jenett

August 28th, 2008, 06:59 PM

I was ready to prepare an email survey when I first took over as leader of my little group, but it took us longer to get organized that I expected, and then we had a troll in the group who caused it to split right down the middle. So we were back to re-organizing and it has turned out better than any of us expected.

It's also worth noting here for anyone thinking about this - I don't think it's the right choice for everyone. In this case, though, we're playing to my strengths: I've spent a lot of time (including organising groups) online, and so reading email is a natural and comfortable thing for me, and I'm used to getting an initial read on someone that way. (I've also done it enough that it's pretty well calibrated).

That may not be a good fit for someone else - they may prefer to go into the initial conversation with very little background, and get a feel for someone on the fly, based on body language and energetic read, and so on. Or there's all sorts of other options.

The energies when a big circle works together are awesome, but before and after the ritual the big group breaks apart into smaller groups and it doesn't feel like "family" so much.

Very much with you - and it's part of why I ended up hiving. I do much better in smaller conversations, and once we hit about 15 people, it was entirely possible for me not to talk to someone at *all* before or after ritual unless I paid close attention to it, and that was sort of frustrating. I think our comfortable limit is going to be around 8-10 people.

I just wanted to say that I really enjoy your blog.

Thank you! I'm hoping to be writing more regularly again now school's back in session (I work in a high school as a librarian, so my own personal calendar is very school-year driven.)

I think I'm going to start a post in the group management about handling guests... I started to reply, but I don't want to take your post too far off topic! :)

I hope you do - I'd love to comment on this one, both from past experience, and how we're looking at handling this.

Networking is an easy way to find out about local groups. Same goes for joining all the Pagan yahoo-groups or social groups in your area. But with networking, at least you will be able to find out more about a group by word of mouth and avoid bizarre stuff like you've been dealing with!

Yep. It's also worth noting that some groups are so careful not to proselytise that they won't approach someone - they wait to be approached. Asking the co-worker in this case (sometime appropriate - maybe ask about a lunch out together, or coffee after work, or whatever?) and saying "Ok, I'm looking for a group. Are there places I should be aware of locally that you know about that might be a good fit?" It gets it a little more directly in play, and gives her space to say "Well, the group I work with might be a good fit, but here's other places to try..."

childofbast

August 29th, 2008, 12:00 AM

Lunacie, you make perfect sense. :)

~Melanie

~Belladonna~

August 29th, 2008, 07:48 PM

Aww hun, I SO know how you feel :( I'm looking for a Coven/group myself, only my problem is there aren't any in my area so I haven't even had the chance to go a try any out as you have.
I know a Coven/group is right for me as when I've been to Pagan workshops, courses, and festivals I've always felt at home with the other people, and I just love the buzz of sharing the magick with like-minded folks. Plus, it gives me so much inspiration and get-up-and-go for my solitary work too :) Like I said however, it's just finding one that's the problem. I have no problem finding Pagan workshops and courses to go on but when it comes down to finding a group of people like a Coven, well it's a different story.
Instead of looking for a one now I've decided to just put it out to the Universe that I'm ready and that I'm in search for one then leaving it up to the Source. I know I'll find one when the time is right, it's just waiting for that time lol (sometimes my patients can wear thin - typical Taurean) :hehehehe: I have faith however :uhhuhuh:

I wish you well on your search, and remember, I'm in the same boat as you ;) only you're futher down the line than me as at least you've been to try some out lol :thumbsup:

Good Luck!

FaeriPryncess

September 16th, 2008, 11:31 AM

PandoraHealer said:
STILL looking for a coven :(
*sigh*....

I have tried and tried and tried different covens/groups...

1.) went with my mom... they were NUTS-- had bazzar beliefs about the God & Goddess and had a meditation room... that smelled of pot... NOT sage- pot- I KNOW what pot smells like....

2.) went with a friend... pressured and pressured and pressured my friend to call one of the quarters and she is rather shy... so I jumped in and bailed her out... when we started the ritual, we walked down the hall in pairs- I wasn't "allowed" to stand with my friend- she was a few people behind me-they sang a song I didn't know or understand... and when we got into the circle- she was across from me... she was nervous anyway and I had to talk her into coming- and she was not happy... The ritual itself was great- I loved it.... but i didn't like how they pushed and pushed my friend and I wasn't terribly into the singing of something I didn't know...

3.) I went to this group alone... they asked me to call one of the quarters- which wasn't a problem- I felt more comfortable here... I called the quarter... and we did the ritual.. then I went to close the quarter- the first person used a snuffer, the 2nd clapped over the candle and it went out-- I myself blow gently -- I know many people don't blow candles out- but I do-- genle and steady - I can visualize the magick spreading into the air... anyway... they all FLIPPED out and yelled at me about how rude and disrespectful it was... yet they never said "this is what we do here"... the 4th person never finished... i defended myself then burst into tears- they were not telling me- they were YELLING at me-- I ran to my car and drove off... balling... I had a nasty email when I got home about how I had ruined the ritual and they had to bury the candle b/c it was "no good"... wtf?!

4.) Tried to start a group with some other friends... the friend I took to group #2 refused to come to this one... When we sat down to organize when to meet and what to do at the meetings... what to include in our rituals... they were totally unorganizesd and could never stay ON TOPIC... the first ritual we did went ok once we got started... it was a women's circle and one woman's HUSBAND refused to leave... so it was rather akward... the 2nd ritual I had to run to the store twice and help dig stuff out of boxes (rather mistreated items) ... then we started... met at 7 started at 11... geez...

Anywho.... any suggestions for finding whats right for me?
I've had some leads and had some mutual intrest but it's not gone far...

I'm really wanting to make the next step in my path... and I really feel like this is it... I want to be a member of a group...

*sigh* any help would be greatly appriciated...
PandoraH., did you know it's hard to find a coven? I learned from one because I was VERY VERY determined to do so. It cost me more than it was nearly worth, in terms of anguish and bitterness. I hate the people that taught me.
Nowadays, Covens do things differently than they did in my day, but the wisest thing my dear, is not NOT do what you are doing, which is to go right in and try to perform with them. *do not do it that way.* Do not. Instead, learn from people outside the Circle for one year, and learn all about how they expect you to obey ritual cues in their presence.
If you came up to me and wanted me to teach you about Witchcraft, it is what I would have you do.
So find a group with an Outer Circle, and ask they teach you about Covening. And another thing, don't rely on your friends. Rely on you.
*B*B*