Pagan Path Frustration.

[unit18_nate]

Hello there I'm new here. I'm not exactly new to paganism. My wife has been Wiccan for about a decade now and I've read a lot of her books but I don't think Wicca is for me. For a long time I've called myself agnostic but I think I definitely lean towards paganism but I've had a hard time finding my path.

Most of the books I've encountered seem to assume everyone wants to cast magic of some kind. All the books are on Wicca or Druidism or Shamans or they are just spell oriented. I don't really feel any kind of desire to do spell work or write rituals (though I don't mind participating in rituals at all). Aside from perhaps crafting items or doing paintings and art based on pagan ideas that inspire me I don't feel the need to do anything magical.
I feel a strong connection to actual mythology and legends even those that also have a strong Christian influence like the Legends of King Arthur. Even some works of modern fiction dealing with pagan ideas influence me but the writings of Neopagans often leave me feeling under whelmed.

At times I get damn near obsessed with The Wild Hunt, Greenmen and The Horned Gods. I guess that's no surprise since I like to camp, hike, hunt, and fish, and just be outdoors in general.

I tend to feel a stronger connection with mother goddesses I've done paintings dedicated to Isis and I have a few others in mind as well.

Anyway I don't really feel all that connected to much of what I read about Neopaganism. I don't want to be a "white witch" or a "peaceful warrior". I'm a capitalist and gun owner. Normally I say I'm a Libertarian if someone presses me about my political affiliation. I believe if someone attacks you then you have a right to attack them back and that goes for defending anyone who trust you for their protection. I believe that some things are worth fighting for and even dieing for. I believe in being involved with the community and in government instead of just protesting "wrongs".

I'm quite frustrated by the lack of "real" community I see in neopaganism. Aside from internet forums and the odd ritual everyone seems to practice in a vacuum. I know that has a lot to do with the highly individual nature of a lot of neopagan ideas and I think the fear of orthodoxy also has something to do with it but despite seeing plenty of evidence of active pagans in many areas I can't find any real communities to belong to.

[ignescentphoenix]

Well, you definitely shouldn't join a religion that your not drawn to. Its great that you show interest in your partner's beliefs, and that you draw artistic inspiration from pagan mythologies. Also, not every pagan or wiccan practices magick. Don't stress out to much trying to find a religion, eventually you will find divinity your own way.

[Louisvillian]

Well, you definitely shouldn't join a religion that your not drawn to. Its great that you show interest in your partner's beliefs, and that you draw artistic inspiration from pagan mythologies. Also, not every pagan or wiccan practices magick. Don't stress out to much trying to find a religion, eventually you will find divinity your own way.
Precisely, especially about the part that not every pagan does high magic or spells or what have you. I've always thought of myself as more of theorist of Wicca than an active practitioner, for example.

Anyway- just keep researching and reading. Don't be content with some of the recent stuff. Read up on the older books on the subject. They're usually a lot more personal about theology and beliefs rather than jumping straight into spellwork. And don't stop with printed material- though some might consider it too unreliable, Wikipedia has pretty thorough articles as far as general information goes for Neopaganism and various paths. Keep searching, and you'll find something that clicks.

[Solya]

You know, the lack of community is something that also disturbs me from time to time. The high individualism was what drew me into Paganism, but I find I often seek the companionship of like-minded people nonetheless. I get tired of all the books that just have spells and rituals in them as though they're the most important things in our paths. Most of the rituals I perform are related to either honouring nature or creating something new like a painting.

Politically speaking, I'm pretty radical. I'm not the happy-go-lucky Pagan in my everyday life, and there's more to my life than just my concern for the environment. I'm usually pretty much a pacifist, unless somebody crosses me the wrong way and hurts my loved ones in the process. Then, things get ugly. I believe I have the right to fight and die for what I believe is right. That doesn't make me any less of a Pagan, though, because I think our ancestors would've appreciated this point of view a lot more than the fluffy "do no harm"-mentality.

Soooo, you're not totally on your own. ;) I second the advice to read the older texts and to search around online... maybe ask some things here or participate in the more intricate debates we've got going around here... and, quite honestly, there's more people like you and me out there than the community seems to offer at first glance. We're just keeping to our eclectic individual paths, which is why you won't often catch us in a group. I have the feeling you're drawn to Paganism, but that you're not looking for a community that goes against what you feel and believe. Just keep looking, and don't give up... you've discovered a marvelous way of getting closer to deities like Isis... I'm sure She loves the paintings you dedicated to her... work with that...

[cheddarsox]

I echo some of your (op's) frustrations. I am a non-magical, not partisan, not always politically liberal...pagan. I basically stopped reading pagan books because I found myself muttering in frustration and calling the authors not nice words all the time.

So, you, me, and the many others of us that are out here...we need to write some books (and hopefully find someone to publish them...but there is always the net), for others like ourselves. We have to create the writings, communities and networks that we seek.

Coming here and voicing your frustration is a great start, already others are chiming in, so there is the start of community!

I blog, have started yahoo groups, write and share essays on the subject of my beliefs and style of living out my spirituality. I discuss it daily on line with others of like and different mind sets...so, there are folks like us out here, active, sharing ideas and fellowship.

I also create art inspired by/as part of my spiritual practice.

I love the environment, but am not an environmentalist the way many would assume when they hear I am a pantheist.

I'm not a pacifist, I think peace is a fantasy.

Some of the times I have felt most alive and connected to the Universe and the environment is while hunting or fighting...go figure. (though most hunters, soldiers, and athletes know exactly what I mean)

Sometimes, even us pagans on the "inside" get sucked into the vortex of the pagan stereotype that people on the outside hold...we know it's not the whole story...but it can get surreal.

Part of my spirituality, actually, the greater part is a coming to terms with what I am, truly, deeply, without apology or trying to explain any of it away. My deepest feelings, urges, hopes, fears, dreams about myself and life...all of that. To deal with it honestly is my path.

Not to take a peek, get scared and decide to "overcome" myself..but to get to know, experience, and come to terms with what I am, what I truly am.

I don't want to magic me or my issues away, or carry a sign telling others what I believe...I want to live what I believe and believe what I live.

Is there a name for this spirituality? I feel it resonating in you and others as well...

I am not commenting on spiritualities that are not like mine. I don't know or understand them. I do not see or hear spirits, so I cannot respond to them. I only know this, this potent chemical soup that throbs through my veins and drives me to act, be, live, embrace, this nitty gritty pulse that will never fly on fairy wings or astrally project. this furry, musk scented, sun worshipping me.

[Shawn Cameron]

I agree with and am in a similar boat as Solya and Cheddarsox, and apparently now you! ((PS, that was beautifully written Cheddarsox thank you.))

I personally have nothing against magic and don’t use it (though I do do some energy work, though I have been doing that in my martial arts studies long before coming to paganism.) , but I do grumble at the books lining the shelves and authors and readers that seem to lean on it so fervently as though the magic where there religion and the gods just a tool to use to their ends.

I am a strong, nearly fundamentalist Polytheist and I came to paganism for the Gods, to honor them and to have a relationship with them, and to know my true self… not to become it because I already am me, but to know it. My rituals are all to honor a God or Goddess or other and much of my crafts and little art projects are inspired by that ( I wish I could paint :( )

I’m a gun toting, Coast Guards woman who believes in fighting to defend ones self and the people whom I care about. My opinions bridge most political parties and so I describe myself as being “Me”. You are not alone and I agree with many of your opinions on paganism, and as Cheddarsox said it will be up to us to create the books we crave so those who come after will have something to reference and to build there own beliefs.

[RainInanna]

I'm quite frustrated by the lack of "real" community I see in neopaganism. Aside from internet forums and the odd ritual everyone seems to practice in a vacuum. I know that has a lot to do with the highly individual nature of a lot of neopagan ideas and I think the fear of orthodoxy also has something to do with it but despite seeing plenty of evidence of active pagans in many areas I can't find any real communities to belong to.

None of your post suggests you can't be Pagan. For example, many Pagans don't practice magic at all. Many Pagans focus on the gods. Many Pagans are focused on myth. Many Pagans have ethics deriving from protection of "the pack" and family, and I don't know any actually who wouldn't respond in kind if their loved ones were hurt. I'm guessing you're seeing Wiccans and thinking NeoPagans, but Paganism encompasses a much broader spectrum. For example, just check out our Paths subforum to read about other paths and their concerns and practices aside from magic.

You can visit http://www.witchvox.net to find local communities, or simply ask some of the active Pagans you mention above.

[Zephyrstorm]

For my own purposes, spells are used occasionally - at best. I do magic, but only when its really needed.

I know Wiccans who hunt, and who derive deep spiritual insight from the experience. I know Wiccans who are politically conservative. I personally am an independent - agreeing with the Libertarians on some things and with the Democrats and Greens and even (occasionally) the Republicans. My politics are not that bound up with my religious beliefs though.

There are a range of political beliefs in the Pagan world. Not all of us are Liberals.

For community, it depends on what you mean by "real" community. I am fortunate, I suppose, in that I haven't often had to live without that community. If there wasn't a community in an area, or if the community wasn't well-developed, then we did what we could to create that sense of belonging. And its worked.

Sometimes if you want something, you just have to go out and make it.

[unit18_nate]

I've always suspected that there were other people who just wanted to honor the gods and not cast spells but most of my experience with pagans in practice is with wiccans. Aside from one ritual lead by an Astaru I've not had any actual experience with non wiccan ideas about paganism.

I'm not looking to bash wiccans at all I just don't think their ideas at practices fit for me.

The Recons are interesting but I live in a culture today that is a combination of many differrent cultures. There are elements of Celtic, Norse, African, Native American, Anglo Saxon, Italian, and many others in my culture in the U.S. My culture is not Celtic or Anglo Saxon though my ancestors come from the British isles. So I guess I have a world view of the gods. Is that Pantheism? I think I feel a special connection to the Celtic gods but not so much that I'm not inspired by others as well.

I'm not really sure what it would take to build a real pagan community. Paganism isn't really a religion but a collection of religions so it's nearly impossible to build a pagan community.

Anyway thanks for the replies. I have more thoughts on this but I have to go to class now. :hahugh:

[Louisvillian]

Neodruidism fits if you like eclecticism and non-Wiccan modes of practice. It's not specifically Celtic, either, so it's very versatile. Isaac Bonewit's style of Neodruidism is very interesting if you are looking for an eclectic "general Neopagan" approach.

[Xentor]

(...) I don't really feel any kind of desire to do spell work or write rituals (though I don't mind participating in rituals at all). Aside from perhaps crafting items or doing paintings and art based on pagan ideas that inspire me I don't feel the need to do anything magical.

(...) the writings of Neopagans often leave me feeling under whelmed.

(...) I don't really feel all that connected to much of what I read about Neopaganism. I don't want to be a "white witch" or a "peaceful warrior". I'm a capitalist and gun owner. Normally I say I'm a Libertarian if someone presses me about my political affiliation. I believe if someone attacks you then you have a right to attack them back and that goes for defending anyone who trust you for their protection. I believe that some things are worth fighting for and even dieing for. I believe in being involved with the community and in government instead of just protesting "wrongs".

Hi there, and welcome to Mystic Wicks!

Like you, I don't like neopaganism much, even though some will classify my own path as such. I don't like white lighters, and much like you I will take revenge when attacked, and will die fighting for the right goal.

Like you, I don't do spellwork, and I don't like rituals. On the rare occasion I need a ritual, I will take one of my blitz rituals. Usually I don't need to, as my mind is always in the right setting. I know rituals... I can participate in and head a couple of different kinds.

Unlike you, I don't like god worship. I deem it useless; a result of following my path. Instead, like cheddarsox, I observe nature. I don't revere it, nor do I worship it... I merely observe, participate, and feel amazed.


I'm quite frustrated by the lack of "real" community I see in neopaganism. Aside from internet forums and the odd ritual everyone seems to practice in a vacuum. I know that has a lot to do with the highly individual nature of a lot of neopagan ideas and I think the fear of orthodoxy also has something to do with it but despite seeing plenty of evidence of active pagans in many areas I can't find any real communities to belong to.

My wife and me feel the same. This is why we are trying to set up a reading and congregation room in our town. Eventually, we hope to set up a church, and teach.

[unit18_nate]

To me the gods are the forces of nature and the mystery of the universe. Not exactly specific entaties (sp?). That's another reason I'm not really a recon.

[Louisvillian]

The Pantheism sub-forum might interest you, then, in that case.

PS) Entities

[unit18_nate]

Actually as far as "the gods" go I'd have to say that I just don't know exactly how I feel about them. My above statement is the best I can figure based on what I understand. Pantheism doesn't quite cover my views either and part of my frustration is that I just haven't figured out exactly what to believe. I'm not really sure I ever will.

[RainInanna]

Yes, that's probably part of why you can't find the community that fits right either - usually, within Paganism, a community is comprised of people who don't have identical beliefs, but do have beliefs or practices alike enough to see value from working together. If you haven't decided what you believe and do, it's really difficult to begin gauging whether a community of people are going to be near enough your Paganism to work.

I think most Pagans find their deity beliefs change and grow rather than fitting in solid lines. And I think most realize the people they work with don't have identical beliefs, but what they do is similar enough to work. It's not like you have to stick with a community if your beliefs change too; people move on.

[Fiamma]

Neodruidism fits if you like eclecticism and non-Wiccan modes of practice. It's not specifically Celtic, either, so it's very versatile. Isaac Bonewit's style of Neodruidism is very interesting if you are looking for an eclectic "general Neopagan" approach.


Don't know what you know about ADF, or what experience you may have, but being involved with a grove for nearly four years, and a member of ADF for nearly three years, having completed the Dedicants program and started on clergy training before moving over to the initiates program, I have to say that in my experience, ADF is not "general neopagan", nor is it eclectic. It has its basis in what is known of the Druids, and nearly all of the elements are Celtic or Celtic-inspired. Most other IE cultures have similar elements which allow them to work with the structure.

It is neopagan, yes definitely. But it is of a very particular structure. There is a very particular structure to the rituals that, without certain elements, you do not have an ADF ritual.

The organization does include all Indo-European cultures, but it is generally discouraged to mix in ritual. Many members, and many groves, stick closely to a particular cultural focus (though it's not required- some folks and some groves can be said to be culturally eclectic, but many stick to one and there are several that adhere very rigidly to a specific pantheon, even using precisely the same rituals in honor of the exact same deities for each high day. overall, no, the organization is not eclectic.)

[Louisvillian]

Oh, I did not mean that that they would mix cultural practices in ritual. Nor that it is very general in structure. I agree with what you; I think I kinda garbled what I meant to say. 8O

[Fiamma]

Oh, I did not mean that that they would mix cultural practices in ritual. Nor that it is very general in structure. I agree with what you; I think I kinda garbled what I meant to say. 8O


Hehe...ok. Curious what you meant then?

[Louisvillian]

Just that ADF is the closest thing, besides Wicca, that people have in mind when they think of neopaganism. Mainly because of the strongly Celtic overtones, but also the blend of polytheism and pantheism, and the usage of more than one culture for ritual aspects (though they are usually respected by being performed in context with that culture's gods). I didn't mean that the structure was very eclectic, just that it's somewhat open to variation, mainly due to the possibility (though not necessarily prevalence) of cultural eclecticism.

Of course, ADF isn't the only neodruid organization, and probably not the only one influenced by Bonewits' ideas. But it is the one most closely associated with those ideas, and one of the larger ones recognized as a nonprofit corporation under US tax law. That's why I used it as an example of something he might want to get explore, if he finds Wicca not to his liking, but would still like to be involved in a poly- and pan-theistic (somewhat)eclectic neopagan religion.

Though, I admit, my perceptions may be a bit off. I've never been personally involved with ADF to any degree, so my perceptions are only those of an outside observer.

[Somerled]

Most of the books I've encountered seem to assume everyone wants to cast magic of some kind. All the books are on Wicca or Druidism or Shamans or they are just spell oriented. I don't really feel any kind of desire to do spell work or write rituals (though I don't mind participating in rituals at all). Aside from perhaps crafting items or doing paintings and art based on pagan ideas that inspire me I don't feel the need to do anything magical.

I'm in the same boat. There are things I like about Wicca, namely the eight holidays in the wheel of the year, theology, etc. But the magic, spellwork, and social structure (covens) don't interest me at all. I'd like to see more pagan authors focus on philosophy and the devotional aspects of religion.

[*~Amora~*]

Anyway I don't really feel all that connected to much of what I read about Neopaganism. I don't want to be a "white witch" or a "peaceful warrior". I'm a capitalist and gun owner. Normally I say I'm a Libertarian if someone presses me about my political affiliation. I believe if someone attacks you then you have a right to attack them back and that goes for defending anyone who trust you for their protection. I believe that some things are worth fighting for and even dieing for. I believe in being involved with the community and in government instead of just protesting "wrongs".

I'm quite frustrated by the lack of "real" community I see in neopaganism. Aside from internet forums and the odd ritual everyone seems to practice in a vacuum. I know that has a lot to do with the highly individual nature of a lot of neopagan ideas and I think the fear of orthodoxy also has something to do with it but despite seeing plenty of evidence of active pagans in many areas I can't find any real communities to belong to.

Have you considered looking into the Reconstructionist paths? In the Hellenic path:

"To the ancients, people fell into three basic categories: friends, enemies, and strangers. Underlying all of these relationships is the assumption of reciprocity. Friends are those people who help you and whom you are obliged to help. Enemies are those who harm you and whom you are likewise expected to harm, for doing so also helps your friends. Strangers outsiders are those people with whom you ahve no defined relationship; you may ignore them, as they will you. . . . This view is in direct opposition to the Christian ethical ideal ("Love your enemy") and to the Wiccan Rede ("An ye harm none, do what ye will"). Traditional Hellenic ethics teaches that there is no shame in interpersonal conflict or just retribution; these are fundamental parts of life. (Nemesis is a goddess, afterall.) Further, it is impossible not to harm others, for in not harming one's enemies, one harms one's friends." - Drew Campbell Old Stones, New Temples

As for magic(k):

"While we have considerable evidence of ancient magical practices, these activities were never a part of traditional Hellenic religion as such . . . Literary sources suggest that common sorcery was viewed with suspicion by the average Hellene, as it was in so many cultures - even though they may have made use of it from time to time - while theurgy was the province of a tiny philosophical elite. Likewise, although some modern Hellenes may chose to work magic for spiritual or practical reasons today, spells are not central to mainstream Hellenic practice, and many Hellenes do no magic at all." - Drew Campbell Old Stones, New Temples

You may also consider researching Norse Reconstructionist groups - they are a warrior society. Although I can't speak with as much authority about them.

[Arianne Weaver]

Has anyone read Vivianne Crowley's "Pagan Pathways"?
This is book of articles written by people from a variety of backgrounds, including Wicca, Druidry, Asatru, Chaos Magic, Mystery Religions, etc, and is well-written and thought-provoking. While you may not find exactlywhat you are looking for, it may give you more places to look and things to think about.
Wishing you wel!