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tellmethetruth
September 3rd, 2008, 01:15 PM
I'd like to know what the role of the woman (in contrast to the role of the man) REALLY is. Not what MAN says it is - what it actually is, from the time of creation.

Do you think the woman's place was originally meant to be in the home?

When you look at pagan societies that haven't been contaminated by Christianity, where do you see the women? Are they in the home? I don't know - I haven't been to a real pagan society, but I think prior to Christianity women were out of the house more. I think the men were the hunters and the women were the gatherers. They couldn't gather inside the home, could they?

When did household labor get assigned to women?

And when you get past the division of chores and get on to other roles in society - what role should women be playing?

If the god and the goddess were to come to earth in human form, what would each be doing? Chore-wise?

If, after all of the chores were complete, all of the men got together with the god and all the women got together with the goddess, what would the women be doing? What advice would the goddess be giving them? Where would the children be? Would the girls be with the goddess and the women and the boys be with the god and the men? Would all the children be with the goddess and the women until they started to develop hormones that made their differences obvious?

If the children all stayed with the goddess until they differentiated physically into girls and boys, who would you say had the greater impact on society? The god or the goddess?

I know in some societies (for example the native american societies up here), the boys are not disciplined or trained by the women and the girls are not disciplined or trained by the men. The men are responsible for the boys and the women are responsible for the girls. The women are still responsible for the care and feeding of the male children, and the boys stay with them until they can "keep up with the men," though.

Just food for thought.

banondraig
September 3rd, 2008, 01:41 PM
Probably household labor got assigned to women at about the time agriculture got big. It takes a lot of physical strength to do farm labor, and men have more of that than women, especially pregnant women. Also, someone would have to keep the small children out of the way of the big provokable animals and the sharp implements, preferably someone who was not using the implements.

watersprite
September 3rd, 2008, 01:45 PM
Well, the women also had the home garden, pregnant or not, and the small children, teaching them how to work the garden and take care of some of the farm animals and feeding them. She worked just as hard as the men. The perception that Women had an easier life is VERY much a fallacy.

RainInanna
September 3rd, 2008, 01:46 PM
What happens in a society where rigid gender roles, and the perceived necessity of the genders to work in tandem, are no longer required for staying alive?

I would suspect there would be no difference between how boys and girls are raised, or the chores assigned to Gods and Goddesses. There would be no role or activity marked "for women" or "for men". And people would be together because they choose to, regardless of gender and body parts. We're in the growing pains towards that I think.

tellmethetruth
September 3rd, 2008, 01:46 PM
Probably household labor got assigned to women at about the time agriculture got big. It takes a lot of physical strength to do farm labor, and men have more of that than women, especially pregnant women. Also, someone would have to keep the small children out of the way of the big provokable animals and the sharp implements, preferably someone who was not using the implements.

That makes sense. As technology advances, society changes and the roles of women change. It wasn't so long ago that most men were out working in the field - and somebody had to take care of the kids. Since they didn't have to gather anymore, women less the home left often and raising the kids became something that happened in the house. As long as they were in the house, and not occupied gathering, they might as well wash the clothes etc.

tellmethetruth
September 3rd, 2008, 01:49 PM
Well, the women also had the home garden, pregnant or not, and the small children, teaching them how to work the garden and take care of some of the farm animals and feeding them. She worked just as hard as the men. The perception that Women had an easier life is VERY much a fallacy.

You're absolutely right.

tellmethetruth
September 3rd, 2008, 01:51 PM
What happens in a society where rigid gender roles, and the perceived necessity of the genders to work in tandem, are no longer required for staying alive?

I would suspect there would be no difference between how boys and girls are raised, or the chores assigned to Gods and Goddesses. There would be no role or activity marked "for women" or "for men". And people would be together because they choose to, regardless of gender and body parts. We're in the growing pains towards that I think.

If that's the case, then why even HAVE different genders? Why are we not (crap - I forgot the word) edit: I remembered the word. Why are we not hermaphrodites?

That's the basic question I'm asking here - what is the difference between men and women? Why have a god and a goddess?

RainInanna
September 3rd, 2008, 02:02 PM
If that's the case, then why even HAVE different genders? Why are we not (crap - I forgot the word) - why don't we all have both male and female sex organs? Why are we not all exactly the same?

Nature. Consider that there are male and female animals as well, despite that they may or may not have common roles that are specific to their sex.

I suspect two sexes and the social roles assigned to them were a matter of survival in the past. Someone needed to gather food, and someone needed to hunt, so the roles were assigned to ensure both were done. At some point people thought that meant gathering food MUST be a woman's job, when in reality, it's simply that someone had to do it. Further I suspect as time passed and women kept gathering, they evolved to do it better (there is research as to how women take in, perceive, and process information differently from men and I suspect it was an evolutionary thing).

Then they perceived (created?) the Sacred in a form to match their perception of themselves.

Now evolution takes a very, very long time. Maybe one day in the distant future we'll lose the variated reproductive organs. But I'd say we're just biologically behind where we are socially and culturally.

RainInanna
September 3rd, 2008, 02:05 PM
Consider those creatures that are hermaphrodites - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermaphrodite

They simply use whichever organs are required to reproduce. They've never evolved to have two different sexual types.

tellmethetruth
September 3rd, 2008, 02:14 PM
Nature. Consider that there are male and female animals as well, despite that they may or may not have common roles that are specific to their sex.

I suspect two sexes and the social roles assigned to them were a matter of survival in the past. Someone needed to gather food, and someone needed to hunt, so the roles were assigned to ensure both were done. At some point people thought that meant gathering food MUST be a woman's job, when in reality, it's simply that someone had to do it. Further I suspect as time passed and women kept gathering, they evolved to do it better (there is research as to how women take in, perceive, and process information differently from men and I suspect it was an evolutionary thing).

Then they perceived (created?) the Sacred in a form to match their perception of themselves.

Now evolution takes a very, very long time. Maybe one day in the distant future we'll lose the variated reproductive organs. But I'd say we're just biologically behind where we are socially and culturally.

So what you're saying is that there isn't REALLY a god and a goddess - it's just something we created because of our gender differences. God is hermophriditic or sexless.

So why have dianic wicca?

banondraig
September 3rd, 2008, 02:40 PM
The perception that Women had an easier life is VERY much a fallacy.

Of course it is. The whole sitting on the couch eating bonbons stereotype has only been possible for the middle class for about fifty to sixty years, and then only the upper part of it.



Well, the women also had the home garden, pregnant or not, and the small children, teaching them how to work the garden and take care of some of the farm animals and feeding them. She worked just as hard as the men.

Only that hard? :lol:

Nothing in my post stated that women had an easy life in early agrarian societies due to lack of heavy labor. "Women's" farm chores such as keeping chickens, vegetable gardening, and livestock feeding, not to mention laundry, sewing, weaving, cooking, cleaning, soap making, and anything else I may have missed certainly constitute a lot of work. However, none of those necessary tasks require a great deal of brute strength, unlike necessary tasks such as plowing, which does require a lot of strength. So the men got the muscle jobs, and the women got everything else.

watersprite
September 3rd, 2008, 03:08 PM
When World War 2 happened, women were pushed in to unconventional roles. Then when the men came home, we were slapped right back in to the kitchen, having babies left and right(the baby boom era). Husbands were telling wives who to vote for. (whether they did or not is something totally different).
We are still pretty far back there. We STILL do most of the house work. I am sorry to say we are doing that to ourselves. Not teaching our men and children how to survive in the real world.

RainInanna
September 3rd, 2008, 03:14 PM
So what you're saying is that there isn't REALLY a god and a goddess - it's just something we created because of our gender differences. God is hermophriditic or sexless.

So why have dianic wicca?

That's my impression, yes. We have Goddess centered spirituality because spirituality is a relationship between the Divine and the human, and humans have sex-differentiated body parts.


The term Goddess can refer to women as manifestations of the Sacred who have female body parts. So I see that it is valid to be Goddess-centered even as I don't apply "male" or "female" to the Divine. I refer, with Goddess-centered, to spirituality that is of and for women. I use Goddess-centered as an adjective to define the spirituality, not to define the Goddess.

I respect that women (such as myself) feel a deep desire to connect with a Sacred form that is like them - that would have female body parts, that would be recognized as female, that are referred to as "she", even as I recognize my view of the Divine is that it transcends body parts.

(that's from the other thread where I was going on and on and on - sorry this thought of mine is leaking into various threads :lol: )

RainInanna
September 3rd, 2008, 03:17 PM
We STILL do most of the house work. I am sorry to say we are doing that to ourselves. Not teaching our men and children how to survive in the real world.

I can say personally, if I didn't do the housework, the cooking, the laundry, and the diaper changing, I don't think it'd ever get done.

I've read that men have evolved to see goals and success outside the home, focusing on the prey directly in front of them, and visually ignoring the environment around them (ie. the messy house), and I wonder if that's why the housework means nothing to them. Having a decent house is something integral to my psyche, and it means nothing to my spouse. Even if he did tidy up for safety reasons, he wouldn't do it any further then "let's get things moved so nobody falls down the stairs to their death".

(with the usual caveat, I'm thinking of generalities, and not trying to suggest all men do anything or no men do anything or yada yada yada yada - I'm really not trying to offend anyone and apologize in advance if I do)

Shawn Blackwolf
September 3rd, 2008, 03:22 PM
Okay...I am a man...what do I know of this ?

Well...let me just offer this...

In the Faery Tradition I teach , and work with...

Or , I could say...in the Pillars of Masonry...:lol:

There is a "Mother's" Pillar , and "Father's Pillar"...

Now , as all the symbols , within this arrangement ,
have number values , so the pillars have number values...

The number value of the "Mother's Pillar" , is 603...

Now , I go to Hebrew...the number for Woman , is
306...hmmm...

Difference : 603 - 306 = 297

The word , which equals 297 , is Throne...

So...Woman was removed from a throne...

Her rightful place ?

Am I right ? Could it be ?

Let me see...I take 297...break it into two numbers...

243 = Learning

54 = To Rule

Thus , 297 = Learning To Rule...:uhhuhuh:

Yet , 297 = My Home , And Children

And 297 = Queen , Mother And Guide...

Then :

297 = Understanding Food Gathering

297 = All Ritual

297 = She - Wietch

297 = Tribal Remembrance

297 = Wife , Mother , Childbearer

Hmmm...

297 = Wild + Beautiful

297 = All And Anything Great She Desires To Be

I do think that covers it...at least from this man's
point of view...( as if it mattered )...8O

tellmethetruth
September 3rd, 2008, 03:35 PM
That's my impression, yes. We have Goddess centered spirituality because spirituality is a relationship between the Divine and the human, and humans have sex-differentiated body parts.



(that's from the other thread where I was going on and on and on - sorry this thought of mine is leaking into various threads :lol: )

Oh - don't apologize. It's leaking into other threads for me too. I think about it a lot.

So what I hear you saying is that the divine has both feminine and masculine qualities. You prefer to identify with the aspects of the divine that you're most comfortable with - the feminine aspects, or "the goddess." The goddess isn't actually separate from the god. It's like the two sides of a coin - one side has a man on it and the other has a woman on it, and you prefer to look at the side with the woman on it. Is this what you're saying?

I think goddess-centered spirituality is necessary because the most common religions have hidden one side of the coin and tried to convince everybody that it doesn't exist or that it's "Satan". Balance is necessary in this world and the other side of the coin needs a lot of exposure now.

Xentor
September 3rd, 2008, 04:53 PM
I'd like to know what the role of the woman (in contrast to the role of the man) REALLY is. Not what MAN says it is - what it actually is, from the time of creation.

Which creation?

As far as nature is concerned, the role of women is to bare children. Why does nature have a dual gender for humans? Science can't tell us why. It can only tell us that at least all mammals are gendered dually... and have been for several million years. Anyone accepting the theory of evolution should accept that this dualism has an evolutionary advantage... otherwise evolution would've eradicated it by now.

Why do men have bigger muscles than women in general? Testosteron. Why do women have more fat tissue than men in general? Oestrogen. Can some women train to have bigger muscles? Sure. Can some men train to have more fat tissue? Sure. Does it change evolution or our DNA? Hardly.

Why a dual deity system? Because this appeals to our dual gender nature, like RainInanna says. Simple, really.

tellmethetruth
September 3rd, 2008, 05:06 PM
Which creation?....... Anyone accepting the theory of evolution should accept that this dualism has an evolutionary advantage... otherwise evolution would've eradicated it by now.......Why a dual deity system? Because this appeals to our dual gender nature, like RainInanna says. Simple, really.

Makes sense - but I prefer to believe evolution was directed by a deity. I may not be right about that - but I like to believe it. So if you just assumed for a moment that my belief was true (you don't have to believe it, just assume it for a short time), then why the dual gender?

Xentor
September 3rd, 2008, 05:49 PM
Makes sense - but I prefer to believe evolution was directed by a deity. I may not be right about that - but I like to believe it. So if you just assumed for a moment that my belief was true (you don't have to believe it, just assume it for a short time), then why the dual gender?
I too believe evolution was created by a divine creator... however from the moment evolution takes control that deity forfeits that control. From an evolutionary perspective, the why can't be provided; it can merely provide the what and the how.

From a theological perspective, the only answer I can offer is chance. I believe the creator did not create us humans per se, but more the chance for life in this universe; I believe our existence to be a possibility made real by evolution.

Some Wiccan traditions will explain the dualism as fulfilling a need for universal balance, ranging from spiritual to physical.

Caelestis ♥ Raven
September 3rd, 2008, 10:01 PM
Long reply sorry :)


What IS the woman's role?

Whatever she wishes it to be!


And when you get past the division of chores and get on to other roles in society - what role should women be playing?

I don't think there is a one size fits all box that we can stuff all women into nor should there be. Each woman is a unique being with different goals, dreams, wishes, ideas, etc... There will be those women who are content to stay home & run her home and children, others who travel the world seeking adventure and living in the moment, others who bloom creativity and live to create, others who fill their life with work, and a million other different paths and even some mesh of alittle bit of everything.

Our only role is the same role for every being...live and be happy doing it :)


If the god and the goddess were to come to earth in human form, what would each be doing? Chore-wise?

I surely cant see Artemis, Morrigan, Lilith sitting home knitting....

*maybe Artemis could knit a bow cozy?


If, after all of the chores were complete, all of the men got together with the god and all the women got together with the goddess, what would the women be doing? What advice would the goddess be giving them? Where would the children be? Would the girls be with the goddess and the women and the boys be with the god and the men? Would all the children be with the goddess and the women until they started to develop hormones that made their differences obvious?

Why would we need to be splitting up in just the two groups? I am sure some women would run off together, as well as some men. some would want the children others would surely not, some may even want to get alittle frisky which the children probably shouldn't be around for. Some of those deities sure love thier wine...

I imagine there would be countless groups filled with a whole mix of different people & genders. Some all female, and yes some all male and some a nice mix too. And each of them doing different things!


If that's the case, then why even HAVE different genders? Why are we not (crap - I forgot the word) edit: I remembered the word. Why are we not hermaphrodites?

Why have different races? Why have some people be blonde and others brunette?

Diversity is beautiful :) There are obvious differences between men and women but it isn't as huge a difference as some people make it out to be.


That's the basic question I'm asking here - what is the difference between men and women? Why have a god and a goddess?

Diversity I assume. I only have a Goddess though so what would I know?



We STILL do most of the house work. I am sorry to say we are doing that to ourselves. Not teaching our men and children how to survive in the real world.

Yep! It isn't because men cant do it. It is because as a society we still haven't yet been teaching our children equally. How sad :( But luckily more and more boys are growing up learning how to cook and clean as well there is hope. Hell my husband helps out just as much and is far a better cook then I am. and he does like 80% of the laundry (though not always right sigh lol) He had a great mother and father who raised him right :)

Philosophia
September 3rd, 2008, 10:13 PM
I'd like to know what the role of the woman (in contrast to the role of the man) REALLY is. Not what MAN says it is - what it actually is, from the time of creation.

The role of the woman is whatever they want it to be. We've come to a point in our evolution that our role is becoming individualized.


When did household labor get assigned to women?

Way before Christianity came.


And when you get past the division of chores and get on to other roles in society - what role should women be playing?

Like above, anything they want.


If the god and the goddess were to come to earth in human form, what would each be doing? Chore-wise?

Depends on the God/Goddess. For example, Minerva would be a professor and Athena would be a General.

The rest I have no idea. I don't like splitting groups up into boys/girls because gender is too reliant upon social norms.

orangeconey
September 3rd, 2008, 11:17 PM
Well...this is my opinion, and it is just that, an opinion...

Women are creators, nurturers, lovers...and yes, that applies to their role in societies. It could express itself in childrearing, farming, art, teaching, or just being there for someone/thing else, but more times than not you'll find a woman living out the role of Mother. *this is hard to explain* Again, this is my opinion and experience, but I believe gods/goddesses are symbols, a way to define something, put an understandable face on something greater than any of us...and the duality of Male/Female in divinity is an expression of eons of humans impressing their consciousness on this great unknown...
Maybe I don't know what I'm saying...it's been a long day...but I think women are there to pick up the broken pieces, mend them as best she can, and make do with it...that is why in most, not all, societies they have been the caregivers, the source of life...maybe not so much in ours but it can be expressed in other ways than domestic....women, perhaps, have evolved.
Yes, men are more suited for the pure physical roles...I find that it suits their nature very well, in my opinion...and then to bring their kill/harvest/creation home to their woman and complete the circuit, so to speak...complete the duality.

Of course there roles don't have to be strictly male or female-some people may identify with the aspect thast feels right to them. But that is how I believe humans evolved, and old habits die hard...

I think this was related to the original topic. I ramble, sorry...