Whats wrong with the Celtic Pantheon?

[Nuadu]

I am fairly new to Irish Paganism and ive got more questions burning holes in my pockets then money at this stage. Ive been reading our mythology and visiting our cultural sites. Most of the cultural sites ive visited has had some gods and goddesses associated with it but i cant find anywhere that tells me how the gods and goddesses of those places fit in the Celtic Pantheon.

Was the record of the Pantheon lost in a viking raid, in fires from the easter rising or the civil war or do we just not have those kind of gods and goddesses?

Ive noticed that there is no over all creation myth for our island. We have ones for the isle of mann but none for us... why is that?

I know those are heavy questions so thanks in advance to anyone that gets back to me :)

[Garm]

Pantheons are subject to regional variation so I very much doubt there ever was one all embracing Celtic pantheon

And our notions of Pantheons are highly influenced by an idealized version of the Grecian-Roman model, the one with the neat little divisions of labor

Schemes and tables are good for mythologists but they have a way of imposing an order that wasn't really there

These local deities never got the memo on how they were supposed to arrange themselves

[Faol-chù]

I am fairly new to Irish Paganism and ive got more questions burning holes in my pockets then money at this stage. Ive been reading our mythology and visiting our cultural sites. Most of the cultural sites ive visited has had some gods and goddesses associated with it but i cant find anywhere that tells me how the gods and goddesses of those places fit in the Celtic Pantheon.

Was the record of the Pantheon lost in a viking raid, in fires from the easter rising or the civil war or do we just not have those kind of gods and goddesses?

Ive noticed that there is no over all creation myth for our island. We have ones for the isle of mann but none for us... why is that?

I know those are heavy questions so thanks in advance to anyone that gets back to me :)-
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The Irish tales were originally an ORAL tradition. Writing was not done in any sort of widespread way until Christianity, complete with its monastaries, had taken ahold in Ireland. The group of 'myths' that seems to be the most true to the old 'saga' way of recording stories is the Ulster Cycle.
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What IS written seems to have been done largely in imitation of the Greek myths, by monks, in an apparent effort to preserve some of the threads of what was there before.-
They way they are put together was apparently influenced by politics. (Who the most powerful clans were and some of the entity-names associated with them seem to appear in them.)-
Most of the particular god names are apparently local phenomena. There seems to be a vague frame-work, but names and particular functions vary widely. The overwhelming majority of the names have been lost...other than those that have survived in some of the old texts, and a few that have managed to survive in extant oral lore.

[RainInanna]

Hi Nuadu,

I hope you don't mind, I dropped this over to the Celtic paths forum as I feel you'll get more thorough answers here with the experts.

[Seren_]

I am fairly new to Irish Paganism and ive got more questions burning holes in my pockets then money at this stage. Ive been reading our mythology and visiting our cultural sites. Most of the cultural sites ive visited has had some gods and goddesses associated with it but i cant find anywhere that tells me how the gods and goddesses of those places fit in the Celtic Pantheon.

Was the record of the Pantheon lost in a viking raid, in fires from the easter rising or the civil war or do we just not have those kind of gods and goddesses?

Ive noticed that there is no over all creation myth for our island. We have ones for the isle of mann but none for us... why is that?

I know those are heavy questions so thanks in advance to anyone that gets back to me :)

I suspect the difficulty you're having is that you're viewing the gods in a fairly Classical way of pigeon-holing them into particular roles like gods of love or war and so on, like Garm said. If this is the case then I can see why things don't seem to fit just now, unless I'm misinterpreting how you mean when you say they don't fit?

There's no Irish creation myth that survives - either because it's been forgotten or deliberately surpressed, or else there just wasn't one to begin with. The Book of Invasions is the closest thing we have, which explains the origins of the Irish people. It's been heavily Christianised in places (because as Faol-Chu said, it was mainly monks who wrote them down), and because of this it's difficult to tell what the 'original' version would have been like. It's possible that the monks took out any creation myth elements to the story because obviously it wouldn't agree with the Biblical version.

The Dindshenchas records lots of the local lore that explains why certain gods are associated with certain places. Because they too have been recorded in Christian times, and because of the length of time over which they've been recorded has meant there's been a lot of opportunities for changes to be made to them (for political, religious or literary reasons or whatever), it's difficult to really see the 'original' content, but (as I see it, anyway), it shows the gods as being intimately related with the land and concerned essentially with fertility and prosperity, safeguarding the tuath and so on.

There isn't a Celtic pantheon per se, because Celtic is a modern term that refers to a group of cultures that share a common origin in their languages. While they're very similar in some ways, the gods of each culture have evolved to fit that particular culture. It's popular in a lot of modern books to lump them altogether into a Celtic pantheon, looking at them from a particularly Classical idea of each god being a god of 'something', but if you're looking at the Irish gods in specifically historical and cultural terms that sort of approach can just confuse matters even more.

I hope that makes some sense :)

[Nuadu]

Thanks for moving the thread where itll get more attention RainInanna :boing: I appreciate your help :)

Thanks For responding Seren, Faol-chù and Garm I think I need all the help I can get at this stage I'm fairly baffled.



These local deities never got the memo on how they were supposed to arrange themselves

I was thinking something along those lines myself but because I haven't studied Greek and Roman pantheons in any depth I wasnt sure. Would it be the case do you think that in Pagan Ireland because our society lacked the centralised government and the political reality of being a single unit like the Greek and Roman cultures that a structured Pantyheon was not developed in the same way?

Also if a Pantheon along the lines of the Greek and Roman Pantheon is artificial is there a way to tell what the natural relation of one god to another was in a region?

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Most of the particular god names are apparently local phenomena. There seems to be a vague frame-work, but names and particular functions vary widely. The overwhelming majority of the names have been lost...other than those that have survived in some of the old texts, and a few that have managed to survive in extant oral lore.

If deities are heavily localised is a single Pantheon for Ireland out of the question then? I have noticed that Gods with different names perform the same function in different parts of the Country. Donn is a well documented God of the dead or 1 associated with death and guiding to the other world but Ive seen Ladru meantioned as performing that same function in Timna cathair mar and while I dont know where he got his info from Dathai O Hogain mentions him to in his encyclopdia.

Could it be a case that several pantheons existed at once being similar in structure due to the shared culture but with different regional associations?


I suspect the difficulty you're having is that you're viewing the gods in a fairly Classical way of pigeon-holing them into particular roles like gods of love or war and so on, like Garm said. If this is the case then I can see why things don't seem to fit just now, unless I'm misinterpreting how you mean when you say they don't fit?

You hit hte nail on the head there Seren. I don't know alot about Irelands native paganism and Im using what I know about Greek Paganism from Classical Studies in school as a frame od reference.



There's no Irish creation myth that survives - either because it's been forgotten or deliberately surpressed, or else there just wasn't one to begin with. The Book of Invasions is the closest thing we have

I've had a good look at the book of invasions and I think youre right its composition is farily christian. I read a book called The Irish Tradition by Professor Robin Flower he thought The book of invasions was a compilation of various powerfull Septs creation myths in an attempt to fit ireland into the Christian world chronicle of the day where all the worlds kings succeeded (sp?) each other until the coming of Constantines Holy Roman Empire. He thought the compilation was necessary because Irelands mythology is "loose in chronology" and kings don't regularly succeed each other. He thought Tuan, Fintan and Mongan were tools to legitimise the chonology along with the Heros being called from their graves to recounting the mythology they witnessed.

Whether its true or not I like the idea because it gives a modernist explanation for some of the mythology.

Is it possible like Celtic Gods were regionalised that creation myths are regionalised too?

There are creation myths for geographical features like The River Boyne, The fort at Cashel etc... were they the only explanations that mattered to our parochial ancestors.



There isn't a Celtic pantheon per se, because Celtic is a modern term that refers to a group of cultures that share a common origin in their languages. While they're very similar in some ways, the gods of each culture have evolved to fit that particular culture. It's popular in a lot of modern books to lump them altogether into a Celtic pantheon, looking at them from a particularly Classical idea of each god being a god of 'something', but if you're looking at the Irish gods in specifically historical and cultural terms that sort of approach can just confuse matters even more.

I hope that makes some sense :)

That kind of confuses me, Im sorry if I'm being dense... :cutie:
If there can be no real Pan Celtic Pantheon but focusing purely on paganism in Irish Culture will confuse matters where should I go to learn more?

Truthfully the materialism of the Celtic Tiger leaves me spiritually thirsty and I want to know about the naturally evolved spirituality of my native land and culture so I can reconnect to it and be in the same spiritual state as my ancestors in relation to the land and its spiritual landscape. Is there any way I can do that at all?

[Seren_]

I was thinking something along those lines myself but because I haven't studied Greek and Roman pantheons in any depth I wasnt sure. Would it be the case do you think that in Pagan Ireland because our society lacked the centralised government and the political reality of being a single unit like the Greek and Roman cultures that a structured Pantyheon was not developed in the same way?

I think you've pretty much hit the nail on the head. Also I suspect that if you speak to a few Greek or Roman recons around here, they wouldn't say things are so clear cut from their perspective either...


Also if a Pantheon along the lines of the Greek and Roman Pantheon is artificial is there a way to tell what the natural relation of one god to another was in a region?In terms of Irish history it's a hard question to answer because of the complex history and cultural influences involved...If you look at the Dindshenchas and localised folk lore you can get a feel for regional variations, along with a study of the variations in the content of the different manuscripts that record the same tale but with different details and so...It doesn't necessarily say much in concrete terms about pre-Christian Ireland, but it gives an overall idea.



If deities are heavily localised is a single Pantheon for Ireland out of the question then? I have noticed that Gods with different names perform the same function in different parts of the Country. Donn is a well documented God of the dead or 1 associated with death and guiding to the other world but Ive seen Ladru meantioned as performing that same function in Timna cathair mar and while I dont know where he got his info from Dathai O Hogain mentions him to in his encyclopdia.Now that's a good question! If you view a pantheon as simply being 'from the same culture' then yes, there is an Irish pantheon. The people who worshipped those gods in that geographical area spoke the same language and interacted with each other and understood each other. Then again, while their gods arguably served the same purpose they were specifically worshipped in a particular area and so forth, and provided specific things to a specific tuath so in that sense they're quite separate. The same could be said of any culture, really...

Then again, by and large, our sense and understanding of them doesn't survive in the same way as they were once worshipped. To take modern folklore too literally in terms of it being pagan and therefore 'official' is dangerous because it ignores the filters through which the gods have been interpreted through subsequent religious beliefs, politics and cultural influences, even. I'm not a great fan of Daithi O Hogain because he tends not to pay too much attention to modern research. He has a reputation for not being too up to date these days, although I hasten to add I've not read his books specifically geared to folklore.


Could it be a case that several pantheons existed at once being similar in structure due to the shared culture but with different regional associations?

I think ultimately a pantheon implies cultural coherency and continuity. It ignores localised differences and evolutions, along with the filters through which these pantheons might be perceived, either in modern terms or ancient and so on...In that sense, maybe it's not such a useful label...

Especially in terms of Irish myths - and therefore the gods that are presented therein - there are often glaring contradictions to be seen in what they do, who they are and even where they come from (in terms of parentage) between tales and even different versions of the same tales.

These contradictions can be very confusing and ultimately, whatever approach you take in developing your own modern worship of them, you're going to have to make some conclusions that aren't necessarily concrete in terms of evidence.

Sometimes, in practising a path of polytheism, you get a particular, often very personal idea of the gods you're drawn to. This is often termed UPG (Unverified Personal Gnosis) because it's true to you but you don't necessarily have concrete evidence to back up these opinions or ideas.


You hit hte nail on the head there Seren. I don't know alot about Irelands native paganism and Im using what I know about Greek Paganism from Classical Studies in school as a frame od reference.And that's how a lot of books approach it as well! But a lot of polytheists and now academics who focus on particular Celtic cultures argue against such Classical interpretation because it's so alien to the Celtic cultures.


I've had a good look at the book of invasions and I think youre right its composition is farily christian. I read a book called The Irish Tradition by Professor Robin Flower he thought The book of invasions was a compilation of various powerfull Septs creation myths in an attempt to fit ireland into the Christian world chronicle of the day where all the worlds kings succeeded (sp?) each other until the coming of Constantines Holy Roman Empire. He thought the compilation was necessary because Irelands mythology is "loose in chronology" and kings don't regularly succeed each other. He thought Tuan, Fintan and Mongan were tools to legitimise the chonology along with the Heros being called from their graves to recounting the mythology they witnessed.I've not read Flower's works as yet, but it seems to accord with what John Carey's written on the subject, and he's pretty much an authority on it. It's perhaps notable that the most popular version of the Book of Invasions as is known to most people isn't entirely definitive. Some versions have a different amount of invaders, whereas other name different people as the heads of invaders. The best known version names Cessair as one of the earliest invaders, and she's linked to the Biblical Noah (IIRC), but at least one version names the native Banba as the original invader...A British recounting of the legend, earlier than the earliest Irish version has fewer waves of invaders, suggesting the six waves were specifically constructed by monks to accord with Biblical numerology. The invader Parthalon in particular, is cognate with the Biblical name Bartholemew, for example...


Is it possible like Celtic Gods were regionalised that creation myths are regionalised too? Until we have anything concrete, there are a lot of interpretations possible.


There are creation myths for geographical features like The River Boyne, The fort at Cashel etc... were they the only explanations that mattered to our parochial ancestors.Yup, and it's tales like this that are especially prone to being tweaked for political purposese - politically powerful families of a given period changing or inventing stories to strengthen their own political power in their own present, for example, regardless of what was actually known or believed in pre-Christian times. This was very common in the medieval period. What we can be fairly certain of is that they were trying to capitalise on deities that were seen to be powerful already, and so forth, so it's questionable as to whether the tradition is being tweaked artificially, or evolving naturally and so on.


That kind of confuses me, Im sorry if I'm being dense... :cutie:
If there can be no real Pan Celtic Pantheon but focusing purely on paganism in Irish Culture will confuse matters where should I go to learn more? No no, you're clearly not dense! Sorry. I mean to say, focus specifically on Irish cultural belief and try not to be too blindsided by those who tend to lump all Celtic cultures into one - that's often how people encouter 'Celtic' or 'Irish' paganism and the conflation often causes a lot of confusion. For me, I prefer to focus on specific cultures rather than conflate them, so I'm obviously biased. Not everyone agrees, from a spiritual or academic perspective. Many modern pagan books and even popular academic books that are well-known in pagan circles often fall under pan-Celtic focus. Modern academic approaches tend to narrow their focus onto specific cultures, even specific areas of a particular culture, but that wasn't always the case.


Truthfully the materialism of the Celtic Tiger leaves me spiritually thirsty and I want to know about the naturally evolved spirituality of my native land and culture so I can reconnect to it and be in the same spiritual state as my ancestors in relation to the land and its spiritual landscape. Is there any way I can do that at all?I think one of the problems and primary sources of confusion you're encountering in terms of finding a personal means of practice is the diversity in approaches that can be taken with regards to the gods, here.

There's druidry, reconstructionism, traditionalism or more general neopagan approaches. You'll find a few people on MW who identify as Celtic pagan, reconstructionist, traditionalist, druid, or a mixture of them...If you look through the threads and subforums in the paths section here you might find a few different perspectives, a few answers, and probably a lot more in the way of questions...

[Nuadu]

Thanks for the detailed reply Seren. I cant think what to say in reply to most of it tho :cutie:



Then again, while their gods arguably served the same purpose they were specifically worshipped in a particular area and so forth, and provided specific things to a specific tuath so in that sense they're quite separate. The same could be said of any culture, really...

My way of thinking there is all the people of Ireland shared a common culture and lived under the same or very similar geographical conditions. So they might have viewed their gods in a very similar way and things the needed from their gods were probably very similar too. Take Ladru and Donn. Judging by the glimpses of the stories surrounding the two they might have had similar origins and Ladru because he played the same role as Donn was probably viewed in the same way as Donn.


Then again, by and large, our sense and understanding of them doesn't survive in the same way as they were once worshipped. To take modern folklore too literally in terms of it being pagan and therefore 'official' is dangerous because it ignores the filters through which the gods have been interpreted through subsequent religious beliefs, politics and cultural influences, even.

I think ultimately a pantheon implies cultural coherency and continuity....

I think theres a degree of cultural continuity in existance since the cultural intervention and folkstories still point to the origions of the fairies being in the coming of the milesians. They are obviously remembered as the old Gods of Ireland.

As for an old religion it exists in superstisions in rural Ireland and purely pagan people like Biddy Early existed outside the Irish Church very recently. The religion from 2000 years ago doesnt exist anymore but our society changed in that time so it wouldnt be 100% relevanyt and would need to change anway. As all religion changes over time anyway Id be satisfied knowing our native paganism as it exists today and making the required leaps to what we know about the high religion is a pleasure.

[Faol-chù]

My way of thinking there is all the people of Ireland shared a common culture and lived under the same or very similar geographical conditions. So they might have viewed their gods in a very similar way and things the needed from their gods were probably very similar too. --
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It might be helpful you to know that, from very early times, and, proveably even up to not that long ago, people who were in coastal areas in Britain and Ireland viewed their worlds quite differently from people who were in the center of the islands. It makes sense to me that their gods would reflect these differences.
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I book that outlines this very well is Barry Cunliffe's Facing the Atlantic.

[Nuadu]

Thanks! Can you summarise how they viewed the world differently?
It cant be a REALLY big difference right? They are members of the Irish culture after all and Fishing over relying on farming isnt that huge a thing...

especially after the 1600s when the shoals migrated to newfoundland and werent there to make a difference

[odubhain]

Thanks! Can you summarise how they viewed the world differently?
It cant be a REALLY big difference right? They are members of the Irish culture after all and Fishing over relying on farming isnt that huge a thing...

especially after the 1600s when the shoals migrated to newfoundland and werent there to make a difference

Wealth for the Irish was determined by cattle and herding, and not so much by fishing or farming (though those were important sources of food along with hunting).

This was true all over the island until the 17th century CE. Deities were associated with locations and activities, with each family having its own associated spirits and deity names. Families owned large estates in common and were allied or bonded through clientship to one another to form sub kingdoms and kingdoms.

There was not really a big difference though there was obhiously a difference since the land deities, the coast deities and the sea deities all had slightly different roles just as people who live in these locations also have different lifestyles even today.

Searles O'Dubhain

[Nuadu]

Thanks for replying Searles :)



Deities were associated with locations and activities, with each family having its own associated spirits and deity names.

I agree with you there and the Irish Pagans I know here try to relate more to the gods of their province, local area and family lineage then to general High Celtic Gods.

I think outlining a Traditional Pantheon might still be possible by looking at Dynastic Septs and outlining each Deity by function and social importance in an imagined single powerfull family. While it might not mirror the Greek Pantheon in telling us how each god related to the other it would make our native paganism less nebulous and give Iriish pagans a Direction when looking for their ancestral Spirituality.

Taking up the point about the differences between coastal families and midlands families to a degree a pantheon in that form is an anachronism because our society has changed and the social and political roles Gods played no longer exists. It would be down to the individual to find how those deities can be a part of their lives in contempoary Ireland and is that really different to a fishing family on the west coast and a farming family in the midlands putting emphasis on different gods in Pagan Ireland because of how they make a living?

That aside its cool to have a reply from you Searles, youre like a Druid legend. If Irish Druidry mirrored what you do living abroad I probably wouldn't be online begging answers to questions. You're a Credit to the Culture Good man :thumbsup:

[odubhain]

Thanks for replying Searles :)



I agree with you there and the Irish Pagans I know here try to relate more to the gods of their province, local area and family lineage then to general High Celtic Gods.

I think outlining a Traditional Pantheon might still be possible by looking at Dynastic Septs and outlining each Deity by function and social importance in an imagined single powerfull family. While it might not mirror the Greek Pantheon in telling us how each god related to the other it would make our native paganism less nebulous and give Iriish pagans a Direction when looking for their ancestral Spirituality.

Taking up the point about the differences between coastal families and midlands families to a degree a pantheon in that form is an anachronism because our society has changed and the social and political roles Gods played no longer exists. It would be down to the individual to find how those deities can be a part of their lives in contempoary Ireland and is that really different to a fishing family on the west coast and a farming family in the midlands putting emphasis on different gods in Pagan Ireland because of how they make a living?

That aside its cool to have a reply from you Searles, youre like a Druid legend. If Irish Druidry mirrored what you do living abroad I probably wouldn't be online begging answers to questions. You're a Credit to the Culture Good man :thumbsup:

From what I hear you saying, you will be your own best teacher. Inherent within you and in your connections to family and land is to be found every answer. Proving and proofing these answers is also the work of the student. I think ongoing study and seeking will bring you to the well where others call it by different names yet it is a source for all.

It's difficult to hang on to names for deities when deities come to one (or rather when we open our eyes, ears, minds and spirit). They are so powerfully themselves that names seem like a box of limitation for them. However, here in the land of the blind, boxes are kings too. :-) Going there and being here requires us to use artificial things like names and language. There are some good generic discussions of Celtic deity types that were fostered by Alexei Kondratiev (Imbas, Nemeton lists) and another by Raimund Karl (Celtic-L). I'll see what can be found here and post a bit of it. Time is pressing right now.

Many thanks for the kind words. I hope to deserve some of them. However, most of my time on pedestals has been spent dodging tomatoes or wondering if my fly is open. :-) It's better to sit on the edge of darkness at a fire or a hearth, discussing with other's and even one's self. In such places, others also come to listen and to contribute. Those who come in kindness receive kindness in return. Those who come otherwise can grind their points and hone their blades until their own blood is let by their efforts. Sorry for the imagery but that's how it feels when the inside of a circle is safe due to the efforts of one's own boundary guards. All is not lost in having such a center of self, safety and spirit. Out of it is everything that happens for us in the worlds and also into it we return while alive and otherwise.

Mind's eye, spirit's voice, body struggling, people in a line, thoughts jumping and the warmth of other kindred; all of these come together in every time, place and being as we each get born again and again in lives of lives. Isn't it exciting? This is the gift to me from my grandmother and through the life of my father. It is what connects each of us, you, I and others. It is my gift to you and all who share in the seeking. We are cousins of a kind, fellow travellers, and a fire upon a hill.

Searles O'Dubhain

[Nuadu]

Thanks for replying again Searles and for the compliments :hahugh:

I agree with you it is alot more comfortable being a member of the crowed then the leader but if I judge a man by the fruits of his labours you have earned more then the honours you're given. More so for you're humility :thumbsup:

I try and learn as much as I can from my own efforts but it is nice to have more experianced people to chat to sometimes. It can save time when what I would like to be true of our native religion doesn't meet the reality of our religion and I'm doggedly trying to root out the truth over months. It's all fun in the end so I can't complain even if I make a fool of myself the very odd time :toofless: