vegetarian: sin or OK?

[GEBS]

I was reading the bible tonight and I came across a passage that led me to some research.

Now I'm more confused because I see many references on both sides of the issue. I'm wondering where our Christian members stand on this.


First, in favor of meat eating I saw this referenced:


3They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth. 4For everything God created is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving,

and


2One man's faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables.


Then this was referenced in favor of being vegetarian:


11 "The multitude of your sacrifices— what are they to me?" says the LORD. "I have more than enough of burnt offerings, of rams and the fat of fattened animals; I have no pleasure in the blood of bulls and lambs and goats.

I also read that people interpret "Thou shall not kill" to mean any creature, not just man.

Then this was quoted:


He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man.


What do you think?

[Sequoia]

I'm pretty sure the Bible was set up to make EVERYONE feel guilty. At least, it sure seems that way. I mean... humans = sin. You breathe, and you sin.

That said... God seemed pretty adamant about humans having domain over everything. I'm assuming that means we can eat everything.

Except, like... shellfish. And sometimes pigs. Depending on what you take and what you toss. There are a multitude of contradictions in the Bible. Probably because so many people over so much time wrote it.

[Shanti]

When I wen to catholic school anything was ok, except meat on Fridays during lent. :whatgives

I never quite figured it out.

Hence, I found it an un-pleasurable path for me. To much confusion!:weirdsmil

[Against The Tide]

I think its saying that if its edible go ahead and eat it - you'd be silly to not use the exploitable resource, just respect the life that you are taking, and thank God that with your belly full you can live another day.

[GEBS]

ah, yes. Pizza Fridays. I remember that. :smile:



Except, like... shellfish. And sometimes pigs. Depending on what you take and what you toss. There are a multitude of contradictions in the Bible. Probably because so many people over so much time wrote it.


Yes, I feel the same. I was just curious what you guys thought. I'm always interested in how you guys interpret things =]

[Shanti]

One perspective from a almost Christian brain, the time when I was in Catholic school trying to understand what I was being taught...my perspective then was..

In the old testament, nothing matters, That was written for early people and not for us catholics. ~Catholic school was sooo enlightening. ;)~

Anyhow, we follow the new testament, written for us modern gentiles.
We could eat anything we wanted. No food restrictions.
But during observation of lent, we gave up meat as a fast to show our reverence for the period of lent. ( I don't even remember what lent was for)

So the food restrictions ( no cloven footed animals and kosher) were for the past and the people of Jewish faith and the release of it was for the modern Catholics and other modern Christians.

So thats how it was perceived by me when I was taught in catholic school.

[Tanya]

I think it gets to the dubious nature of our meat eating... WE SHOULD treat a slain ox with the respect we would a slain human.. that said... i also believe we have the teeth and guts of an omnivore.... we MUST respect and honour what we kill, if we kill...

we must also acknowledge and respect that WE are made t some degree to eat meat.

carnivory is inately an uneasy place morally.. and we all have to struggle with the moral consequences of our actions in any activity we undertake that means 'us' over 'them"

for me that means... 'moral meat consuption'..lol.. which means I eat wild game, and organic meat, occasionally... at least those animals lived and died well.

[Artiste-LiLi]

One perspective from a almost Christian brain, the time when I was in Catholic school trying to understand what I was being taught...my perspective then was..

In the old testament, nothing matters, That was written for early people and not for us catholics. ~Catholic school was sooo enlightening. ;)~

Anyhow, we follow the new testament, written for us modern gentiles.
We could eat anything we wanted. No food restrictions.
But during observation of lent, we gave up meat as a fast to show our reverence for the period of lent. ( I don't even remember what lent was for)

So the food restrictions ( no cloven footed animals and kosher) were for the past and the people of Jewish faith and the release of it was for the modern Catholics and other modern Christians.

So thats how it was perceived by me when I was taught in catholic school.

Historically, Lent is the forty day period before Easter, excluding Sundays, it began on Ash Wednesday and ended on Holy Saturday (the day before Easter Sunday). In recent years, this has been modified so that it now ends with evening Mass on Holy Thursday, to prepare the way for Triduum.

This time frame is called Lent because that is the Old English word for spring, the season of the year during which it falls. This is something unique to English. In almost all other languages its name is a derivative of the Latin term Quadragesima, or "the forty days."

From here: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09152a.htm


Lent

Origin of the word

The Teutonic word Lent, which we employ to denote the forty days' fast (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05789c.htm) preceding Easter (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05224d.htm), originally meant no more than the spring season. Still it has been used from the Anglo-Saxon (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01505a.htm) period to translate the more significant Latin (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09019a.htm) term quadragesima (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12589a.htm) (French carême, Italian (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08245a.htm) quaresima, Spanish cuaresma), meaning the "forty days", or more literally the "fortieth day". This in turn imitated the Greek name for Lent, tessarakoste (fortieth), a word formed on the analogy of Pentecost (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11661a.htm) (pentekoste), which last was in use for the Jewish (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08399a.htm) festival before New Testament (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14530a.htm) times. This etymology, as we shall see, is of some little importance in explaining the early developments of the Easter (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05224d.htm) fast (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05789c.htm).

I have bunches more if anyone is interested.

[Lahmi]

I was reading the bible tonight and I came across a passage that led me to some research.

Now I'm more confused because I see many references on both sides of the issue. I'm wondering where our Christian members stand on this.






What do you think?
Hiya GEBS. :)

Isaiah 1
11 To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the LORD: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.

12 When ye come to appear before me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts?

13 Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting.

14 Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them.

15 And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood.

16 Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil;

What's being discussed here is that the sacrifices which were being made
were not going to be accepted due to their hearts and actions being wrong.

In Isaiah 66 we see a similar reprimand.

Both of these passages are dealing with men trying to do their own thing
and only paying lip-service to our Lord.

As far as I can tell, the applicable passages in the New Testament make provision
for eating meat. Including a passage in Mark where it says it's not what we
eat that can defile us, but what we purpose in our hearts.


Mark

[Artiste-LiLi]

Hiya GEBS. :)

Isaiah 1
11 To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the LORD: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.

12 When ye come to appear before me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts?

13 Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting.

14 Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them.

15 And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood.

16 Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil;

What's being discussed here is that the sacrifices which were being made
were not going to be accepted due to their hearts and actions being wrong.

In Isaiah 66 we see a similar reprimand.

Both of these passages are dealing with men trying to do their own thing
and only paying lip-service to our Lord.

As far as I can tell, the applicable passages in the New Testament make provision
for eating meat. Including a passage in Mark where it says it's not what we
eat that can defile us, but what we purpose in our hearts.


Mark

In my family there is an old saying......"Its not way goes in your mouth that is evil/bad....but rather...what comes out of it."

It basically says/means the same as the passage from Mark in the Bible. In my family tradition we feel that it is not what you eat or drink that is bad...but how you talk, act, feel in your heart or how (in the case of alcohol) it makes you act. We also feel that if you ask appropriate permission, act upon the giving or denial of permission, are thankful and show it by appropriate means of thanks; it is ok to hunt and kill your own meat. Some in my family even carry it so far as to asking about the purchase of meats in the grocery. We run the gamut of carnivorious to vegan in my family; and for us...its all good.

All this is pretty much moot for me as I am not Christian....though there are Christians in my family and family tradition. (our tradition is not hardcore religion based...it can be religious or not depending upon the desires of the practitioner)

[Cloaked Raven]

For the record, I grew up in an Anglican/Episcopalian house hold and attended a United Church of Canada Sunday School. Just so everyone knows, if that's fine.

One thing I can remember from Sunday school and such that we should not eat is so called "bottom feeders". Shellfish and other animals that "clean up" the planet...like eating dung, rotten animals, etc. If the animal/fish/bird/reptile, etc., eats that kind of thing, don't eat it, it's classed as unclean. Daddy used to bring frozen lobster home from the fish plant when it was still very cheap so we never followed that rule.

And no cloven footed animals, such as pigs. But my family never followed that rule either, we raised pigs for meat every year while I was growing up.

Nowadays I don't eat shellfish. Only because I'm allergic to it, both crustaceans like crabs and bi-valves like clams. Otherwise, I'd be eating that too. We do eat pork here, but not a lot of it now, due to my health concerns. I'm eating more vegetarian meals or chicken.

Anyway, I don't really remember any passages in the Bible that said being a vegetarian is unhealthy and against God though. Hmm....Something to think about and maybe check in my Bible for references.

Even though I do follow a Christian path, I am confused by all of the MULTITUDE of contradictions in the Bible too. Wish they would have followed ONE lead and stuck with it! *bangs head on keyboard*

[Artiste-LiLi]

For the record, I grew up in an Anglican/Episcopalian house hold and attended a United Church of Canada Sunday School. Just so everyone knows, if that's fine.

One thing I can remember from Sunday school and such that we should not eat is so called "bottom feeders". Shellfish and other animals that "clean up" the planet...like eating dung, rotten animals, etc. If the animal/fish/bird/reptile, etc., eats that kind of thing, don't eat it, it's classed as unclean. Daddy used to bring frozen lobster home from the fish plant when it was still very cheap so we never followed that rule.

And no cloven footed animals, such as pigs. But my family never followed that rule either, we raised pigs for meat every year while I was growing up.

Nowadays I don't eat shellfish. Only because I'm allergic to it, both crustaceans like crabs and bi-valves like clams. Otherwise, I'd be eating that too. We do eat pork here, but not a lot of it now, due to my health concerns. I'm eating more vegetarian meals or chicken.

Anyway, I don't really remember any passages in the Bible that said being a vegetarian is unhealthy and against God though. Hmm....Something to think about and maybe check in my Bible for references.

Even though I do follow a Christian path, I am confused by all of the MULTITUDE of contradictions in the Bible too. Wish they would have followed ONE lead and stuck with it! *bangs head on keyboard*


My step-son (he's a convert) and his wife and wife's family are Jewish and they follow those dietary rules (among many others).

[Cloaked Raven]

My step-son (he's a convert) and his wife and wife's family are Jewish and they follow those dietary rules (among many others).
We don't have a lot of people who follow the Jewish faith in my area (Mostly Christians here) so I don't know a lot about the Jewish faith except for what little I was told by people I met online. Those were the only two rules I could remember without digging out my Bible and looking for the passages.

Isn't there something about eating meat and drinking milk together that went against one religion's dietary rules? Seems to me I read that somewhere. Could be wrong though.

[Modesty]

7th day Adventists do not eat catfish or pork because it is 'unclean'.

Some Christians do not eat meat. Some do.

Everyone interprets the bible differently and that is why there are so many branches of Christianity and so many different churches of each branch because none of them can agree on anything.

For instance, you might have a Pentecostal church in California that preaches strictly no meat eating, but then again you have a Pentecostal church here in Arkansas that most of the members take up their rifles and go hunting during deer and turkey season and that is food for the family.

It is personal preference and has a lot to do with our upbringing and our culture.

You have the ten commandments. The ever popular, "Thou shalt not kill". Okay fine. But does it say, "thou shalt not kill man?", "thou shalt not kill animal?", or "thou shalt not kill plant?" Is it specific? No. Therefore it is up to each person that adheres to the bible to do what they think is right. As we become more modernized, so will the interpretations.

[watersprite]

When I wen to catholic school anything was ok, except meat on Fridays during lent. :whatgives

I never quite figured it out.

Hence, I found it an un-pleasurable path for me. To much confusion!:weirdsmil

During the 2nd world war, the Pope came out and said that people were not to eat meat on Friday year round, so it could be sent to the fighting soldiers. That just sort of stuck for quite a long time. I think a lot of elders still practice that. Most medical facilities still offer protein alternatives, like fish, beans or mac and cheese, etc.
True, the writers of the Bible had different agendas and viewpoints, just like humans everywhere. And people interpret it to their own purposes, needs and hunger for power. The bottom line, in my opinion, is that it is a book. Just like any other book. We have to look past its' covers to take a look at the way it is used as excuses for violence, control, abuse of women, child sexual abuse and any other "sin" it supposedly is against.

[dragoncrone]

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1 Timothy 4:3-4 (New International Version)
3They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth. 4For everything God created is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving,
I would interpret this as a slam at the Jews, who proscribe marrying outside their faith in addition to observing strict dietary rules.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Romans 14:2 (New International Version)
2One man's faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables.
Here again, religious judgment by Xtians based on what someone eats.

Then this was referenced in favor of being vegetarian:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Isaiah 1:11 (New International Version)
11 "The multitude of your sacrifices— what are they to me?" says the LORD. "I have more than enough of burnt offerings, of rams and the fat of fattened animals; I have no pleasure in the blood of bulls and lambs and goats.
I would interpret this as a retort by God, telling the people that the mere mechanical act of offering sacrifices was becoming meaningless and therefore inadequate as a form of worship.

I also read that people interpret "Thou shall not kill" to mean any creature, not just man.
Jainists in India scrupulously avoid on stepping on insects as they walk, and will not even swat a mosquito that stings them.

Then this was quoted:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Isaiah 66:3
He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man. Hmm, not sure but that may reflect upon the value of the ox as a beast of burden as well as a procreator of calves, and therefore a domestic necessity.

[dragoncrone]

Isn't there something about eating meat and drinking milk together that went against one religion's dietary rules? Seems to me I read that somewhere.

That is also part of Jewish dietary law. Some meals are strictly 'dairy' and other are 'meat.' Milk, sour cream, cheese, etc. can NOT be consumed or prepared along with meat. The practice may have stemmed from the ongoing value of a milk-producing cow or goat, versus killing it for one meal.

Milk was a prized commodity in biblical times; not everyone had access to it, plus it went bad quickly. The phrase "milk and honey" stems from the difficulty involved in obtaining either of those on a regular basis, and thus refers to a life of ease and rewards.

[Cloaked Raven]

That is also part of Jewish dietary law. Some meals are strictly 'dairy' and other are 'meat.' Milk, sour cream, cheese, etc. can NOT be consumed or prepared along with meat. The practice may have stemmed from the ongoing value of a milk-producing cow or goat, versus killing it for one meal.

Milk was a prized commodity in biblical times; not everyone had access to it, plus it went bad quickly. The phrase "milk and honey" stems from the difficulty involved in obtaining either of those on a regular basis, and thus refers to a life of ease and rewards.
Ah, thank you for clearing that up for me. I thought I had heard it somewhere, just wasn't sure which faith practiced that.

[Artiste-LiLi]

Isn't there something about eating meat and drinking milk together that went against one religion's dietary rules? Seems to me I read that somewhere.

That is also part of Jewish dietary law. Some meals are strictly 'dairy' and other are 'meat.' Milk, sour cream, cheese, etc. can NOT be consumed or prepared along with meat. The practice may have stemmed from the ongoing value of a milk-producing cow or goat, versus killing it for one meal.

Milk was a prized commodity in biblical times; not everyone had access to it, plus it went bad quickly. The phrase "milk and honey" stems from the difficulty involved in obtaining either of those on a regular basis, and thus refers to a life of ease and rewards.

Meats, Dairy and Vegetables are all supposed to have their own contained sections within the food storage facilities (be it the refridgerator or shelving) and they are each supposed to have their own seperate prep area and utensils....though this is seen more in very strict orthodox families.

[Artiste-LiLi]

Well that was weird.

[David19]

I'm pretty sure the Bible was set up to make EVERYONE feel guilty. At least, it sure seems that way. I mean... humans = sin. You breathe, and you sin.

That said... God seemed pretty adamant about humans having domain over everything. I'm assuming that means we can eat everything.

Except, like... shellfish. And sometimes pigs. Depending on what you take and what you toss. There are a multitude of contradictions in the Bible. Probably because so many people over so much time wrote it.

Personally, I think with any text, you can read what you want into it, the Bible is no exception.


I think it gets to the dubious nature of our meat eating... WE SHOULD treat a slain ox with the respect we would a slain human.. that said... i also believe we have the teeth and guts of an omnivore.... we MUST respect and honour what we kill, if we kill...

we must also acknowledge and respect that WE are made t some degree to eat meat.

carnivory is inately an uneasy place morally.. and we all have to struggle with the moral consequences of our actions in any activity we undertake that means 'us' over 'them"

for me that means... 'moral meat consuption'..lol.. which means I eat wild game, and organic meat, occasionally... at least those animals lived and died well.

QFT, I'm not a vegetarian, but, I definitely agree animals should be respected, and not just treated as commodity.


In my family there is an old saying......"Its not way goes in your mouth that is evil/bad....but rather...what comes out of it."

It basically says/means the same as the passage from Mark in the Bible. In my family tradition we feel that it is not what you eat or drink that is bad...but how you talk, act, feel in your heart or how (in the case of alcohol) it makes you act. We also feel that if you ask appropriate permission, act upon the giving or denial of permission, are thankful and show it by appropriate means of thanks; it is ok to hunt and kill your own meat. Some in my family even carry it so far as to asking about the purchase of meats in the grocery. We run the gamut of carnivorious to vegan in my family; and for us...its all good.

All this is pretty much moot for me as I am not Christian....though there are Christians in my family and family tradition. (our tradition is not hardcore religion based...it can be religious or not depending upon the desires of the practitioner)

That makes good sense :).

[MariThorn]

The only reason I know of that Modern Catholics wouldn't eat meat on Fridays is because they are observing the fact that Jesus was crucified on Friday. Many Catholics also spend their Fridays in prayer or meditation. This is also the day during the week that you are more likely to find the Host exposed on the Altar for adoration. At three o'clock in the afternoon there is a mass said and the Host is placed back inside the Tabernacle.

As for eating meat during Lent, this is no longer a requirement. What is required is that you give one thing up in sacrifice for the forty day period. There are many Catholics who give up meat on Fridays during Lent, but do not during the rest of the year. My household gives up meat all Lent, and we do not eat meat on Friday (unless one of us is sick, my husband is a diabetic, so he cannot follow this practice anymore.) You are also expected to observe Advent by being sober and meditative. Meat is allowed during advent, but no parties for the strict Catholic. Seafood and broth doesn't count as meat. So many Catholics eat fish or shellfish during Lent and on Fridays.

As for other sects of Christianity, I don't know of any taboos or rules against eating meat. So I cannot speak of them propertly. It has been a learning process for me. It takes a lot of discipline to give up something like meat. For me it is more a matter of putting my mind in a proper mindset and it gets my body and mind ready for what I need to do. Otherwise Friday is just another day of the week, and Lent is just another time of the year.

Also, Catholics don't eat meat again until Easter Sunday, if they are giving it up at all. Good Friday is a time of extreme fasting and abstinence. Holy Saturday has a High mass at sunset or later, and in some homes this is preceded by a small "feast" (as the Tridium is considered one long mass and Easter techinically starts at sunset on Saturday. This is the reason for the huge Easter Feast following mass Sunday morning. The significance of it has been lost in many Protestant sects, because they don't observe Lent or the Holy Week.

[PrincessKLS]

I don't think vegetarianism is a sin and personally I think the bible is set up to give us a choice. Yes, god gave us the animals to eat but we also had a choice to farm, domesticate, or set out into the wild not to be bothered. So this is one area that the Christian god is really either/or on.

[watersprite]

What's with all this "Sin" crap? If you wish to allow some book that changed the rules every chapter to run your life, so be it. It will only bog you down in penance, guilt and fear.
None of this has a hand in truly helping your fellow humans. It allows for no support or compassion.

[Aeon Flux]

All I know is that my confirmation priest said that being a vegetarian was "unchristian and heathen like" while he scrunched his face up into a look of "I Shall Kill Thou If Thee Be A Vegetarian" way...

I don't miss christianity.

[Thunder]

From a Christian perspective... New Testament trumps Old Testament. The New Testament is the law fulfilled.

[Khepri]

Disclaimer: I'm not a Christian, and I don't know the Bible inside and out. I'm simply offereing an interpretation.



11 "The multitude of your sacrifices— what are they to me?" says the LORD. "I have more than enough of burnt offerings, of rams and the fat of fattened animals; I have no pleasure in the blood of bulls and lambs and goats.
I don't see this as being in favour of vegetarianism. All it's saying is that God doesn't require animal sacrifice; it makes no mention of killing an animal in order to eat it.

[Thunder]

Disclaimer: I'm not a Christian, and I don't know the Bible inside and out. I'm simply offereing an interpretation.


I don't see this as being in favour of vegetarianism. All it's saying is that God doesn't require animal sacrifice; it makes no mention of killing an animal in order to eat it.It is also old testament....

[Khepri]

It is also old testament....
I'm not sure what the point is there. The original quote was offered as evidence of the Bible supporting vegetarianism, and I questioned that. What's the relevance of whether it's Old or New Testament in that regard?

[Thunder]

I'm not sure what the point is there. The original quote was offered as evidence of the Bible supporting vegetarianism, and I questioned that. What's the relevance of whether it's Old or New Testament in that regard?
The bible is the Christian holy book and Christians believe that, where there is discrepancy between old and new testament, the new testament rules. Jesus came not to tear down the law but to fulfill it. If we are talking about the Torah... then Isaiah would still be a valid scripture. That's all I meant.

BTW, I agree with your interpretation completely.

[Khepri]

Gotcha. I'm much clearer now :thumbsup:

[Drouach]

Christiansity is definately against vegetarianism.

Just read Paul's Letters to Drouach:

Drouach 4:15-20

"And I say unto you brothers that meat and fat from animals is truly the best food. A man who shuns meat and eateth only of vegetation is like a pagan temple eunuch.

Therefore I sayeth unto you brothers, do not associate with the vegetarian for he is a wussy emo. God commandeth that you beat them to death with wet magazines and poopeth on their graves.

For manly is the meat eater and the wielder of the BBQ tongs is liken unto the Angels of heaven."


Pretty solid biblical evidence against vegetarianism and being an emo. :thumbsup: