Odd question....

[cydira]

We've got a question about the relationship (or lack there of) between magic and science bouncing around here somewhere. I have a vaugely related question for y'all. My physics instructor and I were discussing this a few days ago, and I think he has a valid question here.

Is the occult/magic/the craft/whatever it's called related to scientific thought? It was a question that we bounced back and forth while discussing some of the difficulties I have with mathematics and such.

I personally believe that there could be a relationship. But I'm curious how the rest of you view it too. I figure something of a poll or open discussion would be interesting. :D

[cydira]

And be a little punny too. 8O

[bluecat]

Well as I had said before, today's Science is Yesterday's Magic and Today's Magic is Tomorrow's Science.

Blue

[Vinga]

Considering we only use 10% of our brain capacity, I'd say the other 90% is pure magic :D

[sherry]

Without Magic some scientist would be out of a job. They spend their whole life trying to prove things are not possible when all they had to do was open their eyes to the fact it just happens!!

I really think they are just trying to catch people in a lie and that is sad that they used an intellegent mind and got no results!!

They are the type that would rather tear apart how a magician does his tricks to and look for strings than sit back and enjoy the show!! Kind of sad people dontcha think!!

[Emerald Sky]

I definitely think there's a relationship. Like Blue said, look at some of the things the ancient people did yet could not explain b/c they just didn't know how things worked. They considered it magic, but to us today in our advanced world, it's perfectly normal and acceptable. IMO, magic is perfectly natural. It's not super-natural, hocus-pocus. It may seem that way to some outside of the occult b/c they a.) don't believe in it and b.) haven't figured out that they, too, have the power to to do.

Even from a Christian point of view - the bible says that man was created in the image and likeness of God, and Jesus said if one has enough faith he can move mountains. I believe the potential is there for these people; they just don't realize what awesome powers the mind holds!

Anyway, yes, I believe magic *is* science. - Just noone has come up with a scientific explanation/proof yet. ;)

[cydira]

Wow, this is really cool. I didn't expect to see so many like views on this. :D

[Young Oak]

Physical properties of the world are all related somehow. I believe the difference lies in belief or pursuit. Science is the pursuit and Magic is the belief. Both result in tangible differences as a that can be measured.

[ruthie]

Blue - I couldn't possibly have said it better myself.

[Armitage]

IMO, Science is the study of the physical and how it functions, magick is the study of the mental/spiritual and how *it* functions. Both are inextricably intertwined so there really can be no separation.

[Hestia]

I recently came across a review in the spring issue of PanGaia magazine for a book called The Rebirth of Nature: The Greening of Science and God by Rupert Sheldrake. The review is rather lengthy but here are a few excerpts:

"This book is an intriguing exploration of how many emerging scientific theories support a view of nature as being both sacred and alive unto itself. It is particularly interesting from a Pagan/Gaian point of view in that it uses physics to explain many of our beliefs such as the interconnection of all life and the immanence of divinity in nature."

"......Part III discusses how modern scientific theories challenge these concepts of nature as nothing but dead matter. This section is the meat of the book and presents numeruos theories, such as the makeup of the universe from fields of energy, holistic theory, chaos theory and the Gaian hypothesis. It explores such issues as whether all living things have souls, whether the universe obeys set and unchanging laws or whether the "laws" of nature are really habits (which change as nature evolves), and whether divinity exists within nature or in some distant realm, controlling the universe from afar through immutable mathematical laws."

The reviewer goes on to say that this book is definitely heavy reading and that some scientific background would be helpful. But it sounds fascinating and when I came across this thread I thought it might be of interest to some.

[Maggie]

Originally posted by cydira
We've got a question about the relationship (or lack there of) between magic and science bouncing around here somewhere. I have a vaugely related question for y'all. My physics instructor and I were discussing this a few days ago, and I think he has a valid question here.

Is the occult/magic/the craft/whatever it's called related to scientific thought? It was a question that we bounced back and forth while discussing some of the difficulties I have with mathematics and such.

I personally believe that there could be a relationship. But I'm curious how the rest of you view it too. I figure something of a poll or open discussion would be interesting. :D

There was a book a few years ago called __The Dancing Wu Li Masters__that started exploring this possibility. There are others out now, if you're interested I can drag them out and give the titles to you. It's an interesting question.......

Regards,

Maggie

[dragondancer]

What an amazing thread, I completely think that science and magick go hand in hand. I think that some potions and spells involve chemistry in it's truest form. What does a scientist do, but try to acheive what was thought impossible, same with practitioners of magick.

[cydira]

It looks like folks are getting some thing out of this thread, this is great and a lot better then I expected. :D

Aside from that... I read a book last semseter called the Tao of Physics, it kinda suggests a relationship between the more esoteric aspects of life and science. I wrote a paper discussing alchemy and physics, but I don't like how it came out. I didn't have enough time to develop my points as well as I wanted to, but I'll be happy to share it with y'all. :)

[Shadowolff]

Read about quantam physics -- "The Holographic Universe" is a great book, I recommen it highly -- there is less separation between All That Is than we might think.

[Aidron]

I believe the question of whether the relation is fact or fiction depends on the mind of the individual asking the question. Is it open, or closed off to possibilities? Magickal people tend (notice, I said 'tend') to be more open-minded, and thus science is usually two steps behind those who have practiced magick throughout the centuries.

Personally, I believe people should get over it already and just realize that the two are indeed linked. Physics has proven what many magickal people have known all along, that all things contain a vibrational energy (atoms), and there can be no cause without an effect, no action without a reaction.

Science to me is a way of explaining the wonder that is magick, and magick is a way of putting those explainations into action.

It's sort of like a person and a dictionary. The dictionary explains what the words mean, but it takes someone capable of speech (in this case the person) to put the information to good use.

[Morrighana]

Wow, this is an OLD thread! :lol:

Quantum physics does indeed explain a lot of what magickal people have known for years. It's a fascinating subject, and understanding it can really enhance your spiritual practises.

[Jenne]

Raven WindSong, I so totally agree! It really depends on the person's definition and what they are prepared to accept. I have to say, until I trod this Path, I was NOT a believer in many things magickal. Enthralled, delighted, enchanted, but not truly believing. Now, however, well, it's a different story.

Plus, I've had two children. That tends to blow your mind anyway.

:)

[Rain Gnosis]

Interesting thread! I personally think magic and science are not related but different ways of viewing the universe. Not that they are linked, but that sometimes you will notice looking at something in different ways will still leave you seeing the same thing - but not always. Each a different set of "glasses" to observe the world, if you will :)

[cydira]

But looks like folks are still interested in it.

I had completely forgotten that I started it. LOL

Haven't read the Holographic Universe yet, but I've got to say that I desperately hope it's not as much of a wall-banger as the End of Time. That book drove me nuts and I was throwing it across the room in fustration so much that people thought I was trying to break something. :T

Anyways... I wonder what other folks have to say. :)

Here's a quote that I've heard attributed to Merlyn.

"Magic is undiscovered science." I think it summs up my perspective in a nutshell. :D

[indigo rain]

the tao of physics has already been mentioned, but i'm fascinated w/this topic, and am reading that, the web of life (by the same author), and "where science and magick meet." i love books like these.

[G.H.O.S.T]

I personally dont think so. Magic is based on things you cant see, or forces you cant observe. Science is based on the "here and now" if you will, on what you can see and touch, the only really non observable force in Science is gravity. We can see the EFFECTS of gravity, but what does just plain gravity look like?

[Teshuva3D]

There was a book a few years ago called __The Dancing Wu Li Masters__that started exploring this possibility. There are others out now, if you're interested I can drag them out and give the titles to you. It's an interesting question.......

Regards,

Maggie
Is the "Tao of Physics" one of them? I love that book because it really affirmed and kind of solidified my belief..that science and magic,or science and "spiritual energy" are two sides of the same coin..

[Salanthos]

I think both science and magic are based on 'unseen forces' - like magnatism, gravity, and so on in science - forces that explanations can only take so far. i agree that magic is undiscovered science - or science is unattributed magic...

[Dannen]

i deffintly think there intertwined, i love science and sometimes you can see evidence of magic in science.

I believe that spell work is putting out our own energy and as matter and energy are one and the same (according to Ensteins law of relativity - i think) so when spellwork intertwins them

[Romani Vixen]

I most certainly see a connection. See.. there's this wee little thing called dark energy..... and well... magic is manipulating energy... yeah....

I think science will eventually be able to identify what we do with magic. That should be a magical rennissance

[Romani Vixen]

I personally dont think so. Magic is based on things you cant see, or forces you cant observe. Science is based on the "here and now" if you will, on what you can see and touch, the only really non observable force in Science is gravity. We can see the EFFECTS of gravity, but what does just plain gravity look like?

Not all science. two words...

quantum physics

[Darbla]

Two more books for you:

The Field: The Quest for the Secret Force of the Universe
The Science Of The Craft: Modern Realities in the Ancient Art of Witchcraft

[Simply Puzzled]

The idea that we only use 10% of our brains is a modern legend. MRI's have documented (in color no less!) that we use 100% of our brains. Your mind though, that is a different story.

Quantum Mechanics is yielding interesting results (I have been interested in it apart from magic since about 8th grade). QM allows for the possibility of magic, but it cannot, on its own, explain magic. I think much of the science has been hijacked by New Agers trying to use it to "prove" their own belief in an age when science is seen as some sort of benchmark from reality.

The truth is that science can only account for one layer of reality in a multilayered system, and for the first time, science is actually hitting roadblocks that say "Do not pass." It is my firm belief that the voice in your head that you use when you are making decisions, reading, etc. will never, ever be reduced down to a neurochemical reaction capable of being reproduced in a fully physical system (i.e. a computer). That's because it exists on a non-physical reality that interacts with our own. Even if they can discover a part of the brain it occurs in (they haven't yet), and even if they can reproduce the physical reaction (not even close), it will not create the voice.

Science is soley the study of the physical world and physical phenomenia, and it cannot study those things that happen outside of the physical world. It seems completely improbable to me that one day will discover some sort of physical energy that makes magic work simply because magic does not have any of the properties of other kinds of energy (which are gradually being reduced down to one. So far we are at three: strong/electromagnetic, weak, and gravity). Magic simply does not carry any of the properties of the other three.

Magic, on the otherhand, works on a much more subtle plane. On that plane, things function completely differently, allowing us to make changes that can influence probability to increase the liklihood of certain events happening.

To assert that science will one day prove magic is, in my view, giving the scientists a sort of power. Richard Dawkins has gone so far as to say that science is capable of proving the existance of god. By asserting that they will prove magic, we are then competing with them on their turf by subjecting ourselves to the same scrutiny as everything else in the physical world. If they don't find the results, then they can safely assume we are nuts.

By maintaining the limitations of science and saying you only have the tools to study one area while we have the tools to study another area, we expose science for what it is not: some sort of ultimate answer to Life, the Universe, and Everything.