Saw something that made me wonder...

[Emaleth]

It wasn't anything special, it happens everyday, but it was the first time I saw it. Sounds mysterious;) ? So to the point.

Yesterday morning I was walking with my dog when I saw two cats. Usually I pay attention to cats, they fascinate me, so I saw them instantly. One of them run away, but the other stayed and looked at me in a strange way. When I came nearer I saw what they had been up to. Apparently one of them caught a pigeon and the bird lay on its back, it wasn't moving, so at first I thought it was dead, but it wasn't.

I didn't know what to do. I thought that maybe I should take it to the vet, but I had to go to work and REALLY didn't have time. When I wanted to take the bird in my hand it stood up and went away. I could see that it had a broken wing, or maybe some other injury also. It hid in the bushed, but the cats stayed a few metres away and I knew they'd have no problems with catching the pigeon again.

And then I started to wonder. Do we have the right to interfere with the forces of nature? Can we help animals in such cases, stop some animals from killing and eating others? OK, I think I know the answer. This is the way Nature and Life is, it's not evil, it's natural and good. But I can't help but feel sorry for the prey of the predators. Is it possible to accept such a view of the world without becoming insensitive to suffering? How do you see these issues?

Blessed Be

[Radocs]

Hard to say. Who determines whether we have the "right" to interfere or not? It all depends on what you believe in.

[Eeluna]

I experienced something quite similar recently. I saw a butterfly trapped in a spiderweb. My first instinct was to set it free. I like butterflys, and I don't like spiders very much. But like you, my second thought was that is was a part of Nature. The spider has a right to eat what it catches. How could I condemn it to go hungary because I think butterflys are prettier than spiders. But the butterfly--I hated to see it struggle. I wobbled on the decision, until finally I got my pendulum and asked what I should do. My answer was to let Nature take its course. It wasn't a beautiful, wonderful experience of Nature, but I believe I did the right thing even though it was kinda hard.

[Melysande]

For myself, if it's an issue between two (or more) wild creatures, I let Nature do its thing. But if it's between my pets and the wildlife, I make whatever judgment call I feel is appropriate. If I'm not meant to help, then nothing I do to help *will* help.

[Flar's Freyja]

I think it depends on the situation. If the bird was really suffering, you could have either sought medical treatment or ended its suffering in a humane way. And letting nature take its course is also appropriate. I agree that if it's not meant to be, the action will not be supported.

[Tiana_Ecarias]

Yes it is possible, but you have to want it to be. You can become immune, so to speak, to suffering and pain, if you're not careful.

As long as you feel remorse for the creature being hurt, you won't become immune.

For me, if it's between nature and nature, I leave it. Or, when my parents leave the sheep out in the feilds and the coyote hybrids catch some of the lambss, I leave it be. Coyote hybrids, for those of you who aren't sure whta I mean, are coyotes who have one parent as a coyote, the other as a house dog. Exetremely dangerous for farm animals, because they have the dog's inability to be afraid of man, and the coyote's sense of the hunt.

Tiana_Ecarias

[FlamedLilly]

Well I guess I'm insensitive, but I was raised around ranchers, hard core if I even think I see a wolf, fox, or coyote I'm going to shoot it. Not to mention the hunting aspect of my lifestyle. Anyway here's how I look at it. If they are just killing for fun then I step in, but If they're killing for food then I don't I let nature take it's course. Believe me you can tell the difference between killing for fun and killing for food. If it's a case like the two cats killing the pigeon, then I'd probably let nature take it's course but maybe buy some cat food and put out to feed them so they don't have to kill other animals.

[flar7]

I see us as part of nature, anything you choose to do will be
letting nature take its course. She is acting through you and your
decisions. So it comes down to how you feel at the moment.

I have walked both sides of it, ended what I thought was too
much suffering and treated the wounded....or let critters eat or
scavenge each other. Whatever you choose is right.

[Kahlan]

Maybe the fact that you were there in a possition to save the bird was fated. Like you were ment to be there, you were ment to save this animal. Because if you think about it how often to we see the natural struggle between predator and prey? Most of the time its kind of out of site.

I am not sure what I would have done. I love birds, they have a freedom no human could ever know. To fly above the world bare to the wind, the rain, nature (not locked in a capsule).

Yet I think I agree with Flar, it all depends on what you flee is the right thing to do at the time.

[Nissala]

I agree with Flar. Whatever you feel is the right choice at the moment IS the right choice, she is working through us...

[Linx]

I will let nature run it's course. I wouldn't want some bigger force telling me that my natural afflection for chicken or beef is wrong. And Basically by stepping in with the cat and the bird, that is what you would have been telling those cats, that their behavior was wrong. At least that is my opinion on it.

I used to be a pretty strict vegetarian, no meat, no eggs, no milk. But then I had some sense knocked into me. If I am willing to take from the earth reguardless of whether or not it is plant or animal to sustain my life, then what difference does it make? I pretty much value all things equally. So then I figured why not eat from all the foods that were put here for us to eat? If it was something I was not meant to eat, I suppose it would be poisonous. So I look at it the same with animals. If another animal (wild) came and found one of my animals and hunted it, and ate it. Yes, I would be very hurt at the loss of my pet, but I wouldn't go hunt down the animal to harm it. It would have been only doing what is natural for itself. Even hunting for play, as another poster put it. If it is that animals nature to do so, why would I interfere? Yes, If I owned a rach like he did, I would protect my cattle etc... I mean, just in general though.

This is all just my take on it. And I may just look at things a lot differently then others. I could find myself no more valuing the life of a dog, cat bird etc, over that of a frog, fish, turtle or other. I see nothing that would make one creatures life more valuable then anothers. YMMV. :)

[Witchy Cowgirl]

Originally posted by Kahlan
Maybe the fact that you were there in a possition to save the bird was fated. Like you were ment to be there, you were ment to save this animal. Because if you think about it how often to we see the natural struggle between predator and prey? Most of the time its kind of out of site.


Or maybe she was there at that time to learn a lesson,.... figure all this out.

But I agree with Flar, what you feel is right at the moment.
For instance.....
Hubby and I were just married and moved into an old farm house. Hubby opened the wood stove to clean it out and a mouse ran out. Our cat jumped and that was the end of the mouse. Hubby continued cleaning the wood stove and he found a nest of teeny tinny baby mice, eyes still closed. I took them outside and killed them. Hubby couldn't believe he's eyes and it kinda took him by surprise. But they would've staved to death with out their mother. I felt that was worse.
Now, I could've tried to tend to them. But more than likely they would've died on me. And if they had've lived the cat would've ended up with them sooner or later.

Make sense?

[Blu Heather]

It is tough...being in the position to help a creature but not knowing if your helping is actually the right thing. And there isn't really a right or wrong answer. There are always what ifs and exceptions to everything. Do what you think is right...and chances are you're following the right path.

[Tiana_Ecarias]

Flar made a good point, and I was raised on a ranch as well, I could not kill a fox, wolf, coyote, or coyuote hybrid on sight, only because they haven't done anything wrong yet.

Now, if I were to see them in the barn, or in the lambing field, I would. And I can't blame a coyote for taking a yearling to feed it's self and their young, because I was lazy and left teh sheep out in the pastures.

Now, some one's dog, coming into my pastures, yes I would shoot, for they'll run the sheep down to death, only trying to play. But, there again, it depends on the situation.

About teh baby mice, I stand in the same place, if you had tried to nurse them, either the cat would of tried to eat them, or, they would of rejected the food you gave them, and still died.

Nature let's us know what she wants by telling us, and we act when we hear it, wether we realize it or not. And sometimes, she wants to show you what can happen, and that it does, and maybe you could help from more of that same thing from happening.

just my other rambling thoughts

Tiana_Ecarias

[FlamedLilly]

TO NiteFLix, I think that you were talking about me when you were saying you were raised like a rancher, well you mentioned me as a he, and I'm not I'm a she. Just thought I should clear that up.

[Willow_Raindancer]

I would like to point out one simple fact.
That house cats are not Natural!
They are domesticated.
They are not indigenouse to any particular region.
It would be "Nature" if a Bob-cat or Mountain Lion
caught the bird. Not a house cat.
I keep all my cats inside 100% of the time for their safty
and that of the wildlife.
Several species of birds are now extinct
because of ferral cats.
While I doubt Pigions will make the endangered
list anytime soon, it's something to ponder;)

[Witchy Cowgirl]

Yes, house cats may be domesticated, but in my view they are still part of nature. They still have instincts and act according to natural occurances.
I think most of us consider ourselves part of nature as well. Although we may not be as in tune to it as if we actually "lived" naturally.

[Willow_Raindancer]

Originally posted by Witchy Cowgirl
Yes, house cats may be domesticated, but in my view they are still part of nature. They still have instincts and act according to natural occurances.
I think most of us consider ourselves part of nature as well. Although we may not be as in tune to it as if we actually "lived" naturally.


Well put;)

I'll still keep my fuzzy ones inside, we have Coyotes and
a lot of loose dogs that run around here.
Blessed Be!

[Illuminatus]

Originally posted by Emaleth
And then I started to wonder. Do we have the right to interfere with the forces of nature?

The short answer is yes. Humans are a part of nature, not seperate from it. If we want to interfere, we can, and often do. Other animals do it too - sometimes dogs make friends with geese and mother dogs will let orphaned kittens suckle with the rest of their brood.

Man has free will, so get out there and use it!

- Ill

[Emaleth]

Originally posted by Willow_Raindancer
I would like to point out one simple fact.
That house cats are not Natural!
They are domesticated.
They are not indigenouse to any particular region.


These cats weren't quite domesticated, they're homeless and wild. People feed the cats in my neighbourhood, but it's a fact that even well fed domestic cats still hunt, cause it's their instinct. I wouldn't let my own cat or dog kill other animal 'just for fun', but I believe that homeless animals should have the right to get food, so as long as they kill only wild birds, mice and rats, it's OK with me. I feel sorry for those creatures, but still I wouldn't want rats in my house:) .

Blessed Be

[Willow_Raindancer]

Originally posted by Emaleth
These cats weren't quite domesticated, they're homeless and wild. People feed the cats in my neighbourhood, but it's a fact that even well fed domestic cats still hunt, cause it's their instinct. I wouldn't let my own cat or dog kill other animal 'just for fun', but I believe that homeless animals should have the right to get food, so as long as they kill only wild birds, mice and rats, it's OK with me. I feel sorry for those creatures, but still I wouldn't want rats in my house:) .

Blessed Be

Domestic cats would not be here if not for humans.
I personally would feel very sorry for them too.
I have brought more cats home than I can count.
My point was not for the cats to starve, no one want's that.
I agree domestic cats have a natural instinct to hunt. I feel it's the cat owners responsibility to protect their kitty & the environment. Like I said, there's no real danger of pigions going extinct anytime soon.
I have a lot of "issues" about irresponsible cat owners.
(I don't think letting them outside is necessarily irresponsible)
I do find not spaying or neutering a cat irresponsible unless your beeding a pedagred (sp?) pair. It's when someone dumps a cat they don't want.
It's a people problem.
If you wan't to stop a cat from eating a pigion, I'd say it is not interfering. BUT I'd have to bring the kitty some food to make up for it;)