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Infinite Grey
October 1st, 2008, 05:23 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOUhvPNrNgU

From www.thegodmovie.com


Scary stuff.

cydira
October 29th, 2008, 05:31 PM
Hmm... Interesting.

While I am not entirely comfortable with the Christian denominations that tend to espouse the 'Rapture ready' mindset, it is a cultural factor that does need considered. While I could make the joke about airplanes and atheists, I think the better thing to do is ask a question of y'all.

With respect to the mythos of the Rapture and it's role in American society, how do you believe it can impact our lives? Obviously, there is the concern of it being the impetus for the insinuation of a State religion here in the United States, but surely it is possible to see other areas where it could have an effect.

What are your thoughts?

Lahmi
November 23rd, 2008, 02:05 AM
Well, for starters, when christians really believe it they tend to live out their faith more coherently, which tends to make us good neighbors for all of y'all. :)

Cunae
November 23rd, 2008, 02:18 AM
Cydira, I am not sure what you are asking, so I am not sure I can answer it.

Call me a nutball, but I believe in the Rapture. I don't know if I will go up or will stay here, though. That's one reason I got an Ichthys tattooed on my right forearm with the Greek acronym IXOYE [Jeus Christ, Son of God, Savior] tattooed inside, so that in the worst of the worst, I can never deny Christ.

samkhat
November 23rd, 2008, 02:33 AM
I'm curious why xtians are in a pagan forum, I guess. :)

Brightshores
November 23rd, 2008, 09:27 AM
:wtf:

My question is - who's going to send all the emails to the people whose addresses have been sent to that website, once everyone gets whisked away?

Presumably that dude who started the site thinks he's going to be saved. Did he hire an atheist or something to send the letters once he's gone?

LacyRoze
November 23rd, 2008, 10:13 AM
I'm curious why xtians are in a pagan forum, I guess. :)

Because this is also a spiritual sanctuary open to all paths and faiths...

teishabee
November 23rd, 2008, 12:02 PM
Hmm... Interesting.



With respect to the mythos of the Rapture and it's role in American society, how do you believe it can impact our lives? What are your thoughts?


From what Ive read, there is a view this has had a great impact already.

The large support of Evangelists for support of the Iraq war and hoping that bring the rapture day closer

Faunus
November 23rd, 2008, 12:07 PM
I was raised in a very conservative Christian household and I'll never forget how almost 30 years ago, when I was ten years old, my parents took me to this church where they were showing a film called "Left Behind" (not related to the popular Tim LaHaye novels of the same name). The film showed this young married woman, whose husband was a devout Christian, that chose not to practice her faith. In one scene, she comes home and finds her husband's electric razor running in the sink, as he'd be taken away but she, of course, had been "left behind" (proving the title wasn't just a clever name! :hehehehe:).

Now you have to imagine, I was a ten year old boy who, like any ten year old boy, got into a little mischief every now and again. To see this movie showing a God that, much like Santa Claus, is making a list and checking it twice as to whose been naughty and whose been nice, scared the living hell out of me. I used to come home from school worried that I'd discover I was "left behind" and that my parents would be gone, leaving me to fend for myself in an anti-christ ruled world. I remember one day I came home and found the door unlocked and nobody home, but the car still parked out front. Turns out my mother was next door visiting our neighbors, but in that short period I almost went into hysterics thinking I was soon going to have to do battle with the "Beast"! :bigredgri

Rudas Starblaze
November 23rd, 2008, 12:14 PM
*shrugs* old news to me. the bible talked of pagan gods and godesses as well. even in alot of old pagan beliefs there is an all powerful unknown god. who really knows what "truth" is in regards to religion? we all have our own personal beliefs.

Darth Brooks
November 24th, 2008, 12:47 AM
What I find most interesting about beliefs concerning the Rapture is that, historically at least, it never really seemed to figure into most forms of Christian apocalypticism until John Nelson Darby (1800 - 1882) of the Plymouth Brethren first popularized it as his own interpretation of 1 Thessalonians 4:16. Darby became the originator of dispensationalism, or the belief that the present era will be ended by Christ making a secret imminent rapture of the faithful to heaven.

However, in the nineteen centuries of church history prior to Darby's dispensationalism, there is not much mention of a "Rapture" at all. One can find plenty of references to the "Last World Emperor" belief, which was popular in medieval Catholic apocalypticism, and to the idea of a papal Antichrist (which actually circulated long before the Protestant Reformation), but I have not yet found a pre-1800's apocalyptic writer who ever spoke of "the Rapture" as a definite event. In other words, it is a fairly recent development in the history of Christianity. It may not be part of the "fringe" in terms of the current American Christian population, but it is certainly part of the "fringe" as far as Christian history goes.

I myself do not believe in the Rapture, though I do hold what some might consider to be "apocalyptic beliefs." (I would argue they are purely eschatological, not necessarily "apocalyptic.") That is to say, I do have my own notions of a "rhythm of history" or a "divine plan" if you will, that will eventually be culminated in a series of major events that will mark the end of our current era and the beginning of a new one. But keep in mind I am describing something that is better suited to the original Greek meaning of the word "apocalypse," as in the sense of a revelation; not to the "common knowledge" definition of "apocalypse" that is most popularly used today. (It should also be kept in mind that Christians and other monotheists are not the only ones to possess eschatological elements of faith, either. Ragnarok would be an example of a Norse pagan eschatology.)

My only objection to most forms of belief in the Rapture today is that I happen to take something of an Augustinian view toward the subject: i.e., I think that when it comes to echatology, the "prophecies" are best internalized and understood as present and immanent (as opposed to externalizing them and understanding them as being imminent events that will literally take place exactly as the "prophecy" is written - and yes, there is a difference between "imminent" and "immanent"). The Augustinian position strikes me as being much more down-to-earth, sober, and spiritually "true" than, say, the "pop apocalypticism" that is propagated by guys like LaHaye and Jenkins today.

All this is to say that I don't have a problem with people having eschatological beliefs if that is truly how they believe (else I would be a hypocrite), but I happen to agree with some of the greater Christian thinkers of history, like Tyconius and Augustine, in that these kinds of beliefs are most useful when they remain as internalized and non-apocalyptic (in the modern sense) as possible. Which is to say, a person who understands the Rapture as symbolic of an ever-present spiritual truth is more down to earth IMO than a person who literally believes that it's just around the corner, so they decide to quit their job and not bother sending their kids to school. However, there have also been plenty of people in history who seriously believed in certain prophecies, but who knew better than to assign dates for when they would "come true," and who would not be so quick to quit their jobs just because they believed Jesus or Zoroaster or Maitreya was coming. So this is really a much more diverse matter than the video above would seem to suggest.

Lahmi
November 25th, 2008, 12:45 AM
I'm curious why xtians are in a pagan forum, I guess. :)
I'm here for many reasons.... not the least of which is I used to walk the
magik paths myself. :)

Caitlin.ann
November 25th, 2008, 12:49 AM
Meh load of rubbish to me. To each their own though.

staticonthewire
November 25th, 2008, 02:11 AM
Well, for starters, when christians really believe it they tend to live out their faith more coherently, which tends to make us good neighbors for all of y'all. :)

I know Xtians who take every opportunity to foment destruction, lay waste to society, in the belief that they are "hastening the rapture". Not my idea of a good neighbor.

I just watched a Youtube vid of some pestilent preacher claiming Hitler was doing "god's work" because he drove the Jews to Israel and hastened the rapture. Also not my idea of a good neighbor, "y'all".

He sure is coherent, though...

This sort of willful nihilism is, I think, the largest effect of rapture-oriented thinking. Personally, it strikes me as a particularly corrosive brand of the spiritual terrorism at which most major religions excel...

Darth Brooks
November 25th, 2008, 04:16 AM
I know Xtians who take every opportunity to foment destruction, lay waste to society, in the belief that they are "hastening the rapture". Not my idea of a good neighbor.

I just watched a Youtube vid of some pestilent preacher claiming Hitler was doing "god's work" because he drove the Jews to Israel and hastened the rapture. Also not my idea of a good neighbor, "y'all".

He sure is coherent, though...

This sort of willful nihilism is, I think, the largest effect of rapture-oriented thinking. Personally, it strikes me as a particularly corrosive brand of the spiritual terrorism at which most major religions excel...

It sounds to me like you're describing Pastor John Hagee, who is quite popular in some areas 'round my neck of the woods. He was involved in something of a stink earlier this year because he gave a public endorsement to John McCain (who made it clear that he didn't appreciate the endorsement, or so I recall).

Although Hagee is certainly an anti-gay and anti-pagan bigot, one thing he is not is an anti-Semite. In fact, he's actually the founder of a group called Christians United For Israel (http://www.cufi.org/site/PageServer), and he routinely has Jewish rabbis on his show (and no, they're not always "Jews For Jesus," though they are sometimes). Hagee is not always well liked by his Jewish associates but he is at least tolerated because of the amount of work he does to generate support for Israel here in the States.

As far as the Holocaust statements go, I don't remember exactly how he has phrased himself. But do I think he has a point, or at least part of one: what happened during that time did help to create the state of Israel. Prior to WWII there had been talk of creating such a state for the Jews for about three decades, but nothing ever really came from it. The fact that Hitler had just committed genocide against the Jewish people helped to generate actual support for creating Israel. Hitler is also typically understood as a "predecessor" of Antichrist (though strangely enough this connection was never quite conceptualized during Hitler's lifetime), the belief being that God allows certain evil tyrants to persecute both Jews and Christians during certain tribulational periods, as a means of testing the faithful. This is supposedly going to culminate whenever God allows the "Final Tyrant" - Antichrist - to take over the world and persecute all Jews and Christians until the End of Days. So while you could say that people like Pastor Hagee believe that the Holocaust was God's way of creating the modern-day state of Israel, they aren't really being anti-Semitic since they believe God will also use a future Christian holocaust to create the future millennial kingdom of Christ on earth.

In other words, it strikes me as being more like masochism than sadism. But typically, even Christians of Hagee's ilk usually understand that the first Christians were Jews, and they are usually supportive of groups like CUFI. Either way, Hagee still has Jewish friends and supporters, so they must not think he's that bad.

But for all I know you might be referring to someone else. Hagee has definitely used what I would call hate speech against gays, lesbians, pagans and atheists. He wouldn't see it that way, of course, but I do. Either way, you are right that apocalypticism can become extremely dangerous when it is abused - but not everyone who holds apocalyptic beliefs gets carried away with them, either.

ignescentphoenix
November 25th, 2008, 04:27 AM
I think the belief in rapture is silly.

If these people want the 'end' to happen so badly, they will try and make it happen. This does not make it pre-ordained, but instead makes it a self-fulfilling prophecy. They want to be proven right so badly that they would be okay with the destruction of earth.

/sarcasm/
Yeah, I want that to be the only verifiable proof that my God exists.

cydira
November 25th, 2008, 11:49 AM
I know Xtians who take every opportunity to foment destruction, lay waste to society, in the belief that they are "hastening the rapture". Not my idea of a good neighbor.


I've seen Christians who take the opportunity to engage in similar bad behavior. I'm less inclined to believe that it is due to some genuine deeply held belief that they are 'hastening the rapture' but rather abusing that concept as an excuse to engage in bad behavior and heresy. Though telling them that such behavior is heretical is... well, it is an invitation for harassment.



I just watched a Youtube vid of some pestilent preacher claiming Hitler was doing "god's work" because he drove the Jews to Israel and hastened the rapture. Also not my idea of a good neighbor, "y'all".

He sure is coherent, though...


I'm of the opinion that every religion has their fringe groups and whackjobs. People claiming that the Holocaust was a good thing because it serves God's Will is in that group, in my opinion. Again, it's also a form of heresy and informing them of it tends to get rather... explosive responses.



This sort of willful nihilism is, I think, the largest effect of rapture-oriented thinking. Personally, it strikes me as a particularly corrosive brand of the spiritual terrorism at which most major religions excel...

I agree that the belief in the Rapture can qualify as willful nihilism in many cases. I don't know if you can rightly call it spiritual terrorism any more then one could call the nihilist sects of Buddhisim spiritual terrorists. I do think that the Third Wave Christians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Wave_of_the_Holy_Spirit), especially the more militant of them, are engaged in nihilism.

I find the general emphasis, at least in the USA, upon the seizure of political power by this particular sect of Christianity is disturbing. There is no respect for separation of Church and State, from what I have observed, in this sect of Christianity and it appears that they desire to replace the current governing body of the nation with a theocracy. This is clearly counter to the protections afforded by the Constitution of the United States and runs a grave threat against the liberty and peace of the citizens of the nation.

Unfortunately, again according to what I have witnessed in my dealings with this particular branch of Christianity, this is something that they seem to feel is appropriate. I could also tend to agree that the person who suggested that the belief in the Rapture and the attendant behaviors that go with is are a form of masochism. It's a rather disturbing combination to see in a social group that appears to be growing in political power and in social presence here in the USA.

staticonthewire
November 25th, 2008, 12:28 PM
It sounds to me like you're describing Pastor John Hagee, who is quite popular in some areas 'round my neck of the woods. He was involved in something of a stink earlier this year because he gave a public endorsement to John McCain (who made it clear that he didn't appreciate the endorsement, or so I recall).

Although Hagee is certainly an anti-gay and anti-pagan bigot, one thing he is not is an anti-Semite. In fact, he's actually the founder of a group called Christians United For Israel (http://www.cufi.org/site/PageServer), and he routinely has Jewish rabbis on his show (and no, they're not always "Jews For Jesus," though they are sometimes). Hagee is not always well liked by his Jewish associates but he is at least tolerated because of the amount of work he does to generate support for Israel here in the States.

As far as the Holocaust statements go, I don't remember exactly how he has phrased himself. But do I think he has a point, or at least part of one: what happened during that time did help to create the state of Israel. Prior to WWII there had been talk of creating such a state for the Jews for about three decades, but nothing ever really came from it. The fact that Hitler had just committed genocide against the Jewish people helped to generate actual support for creating Israel. Hitler is also typically understood as a "predecessor" of Antichrist (though strangely enough this connection was never quite conceptualized during Hitler's lifetime), the belief being that God allows certain evil tyrants to persecute both Jews and Christians during certain tribulational periods, as a means of testing the faithful. This is supposedly going to culminate whenever God allows the "Final Tyrant" - Antichrist - to take over the world and persecute all Jews and Christians until the End of Days. So while you could say that people like Pastor Hagee believe that the Holocaust was God's way of creating the modern-day state of Israel, they aren't really being anti-Semitic since they believe God will also use a future Christian holocaust to create the future millennial kingdom of Christ on earth.

In other words, it strikes me as being more like masochism than sadism. But typically, even Christians of Hagee's ilk usually understand that the first Christians were Jews, and they are usually supportive of groups like CUFI. Either way, Hagee still has Jewish friends and supporters, so they must not think he's that bad.

But for all I know you might be referring to someone else. Hagee has definitely used what I would call hate speech against gays, lesbians, pagans and atheists. He wouldn't see it that way, of course, but I do. Either way, you are right that apocalypticism can become extremely dangerous when it is abused - but not everyone who holds apocalyptic beliefs gets carried away with them, either.

Yes, Darth, I was referring to Hagee, but I saw no reason to mention his name and up his hits...

Perhaps I was misunderstood, I can't tell from your comments, but I wasn't saying Hagee was an anti-Semite, or bringing up anti-Semitism in any way, I was simply offering his particular brand of rapture-boosting as an example of how this creed affects our society and culture, in general terms.

My personal feeling about the state of Israel is that it was a terrible mistake to concentrate a huge percentage of the Jewish nation in one location, where they become a perfect target for a nuke or two, and consequent extermination.

And that would be a great loss to humanity, were it to occur.

Infinite Grey
November 25th, 2008, 12:34 PM
Well, for starters, when christians really believe it they tend to live out their faith more coherently, which tends to make us good neighbors for all of y'all. :)

:alol:


You're kidding right? Who do you think are largely responsible for Proposition 8 in California? Good nieghbours my ass.

staticonthewire
November 25th, 2008, 12:55 PM
I've seen Christians who take the opportunity to engage in similar bad behavior. I'm less inclined to believe that it is due to some genuine deeply held belief that they are 'hastening the rapture' but rather abusing that concept as an excuse to engage in bad behavior and heresy. Though telling them that such behavior is heretical is... well, it is an invitation for harassment.

I'm inclined to agree - many of the putative Xtians I run into who are praising Jesus and tearing down in his name are simply taking advantage of the whole idea of rapture - but doesn't that indicate the overall negative value of this pernicious creed?


I'm of the opinion that every religion has their fringe groups and whackjobs. People claiming that the Holocaust was a good thing because it serves God's Will is in that group, in my opinion. Again, it's also a form of heresy and informing them of it tends to get rather... explosive responses.

Of course this isn't main-line Xtianity. It isn't even mainline fundamentalist Xtianity. But this year's heresy is next year's schismatic sect, isn't it, with it's own special, special tax breaks and constitutional safeguards...


I agree that the belief in the Rapture can qualify as willful nihilism in many cases. I don't know if you can rightly call it spiritual terrorism any more then one could call the nihilist sects of Buddhisim spiritual terrorists. I do think that the Third Wave Christians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Wave_of_the_Holy_Spirit), especially the more militant of them, are engaged in nihilism.

You're right. It was a hyperbolic comment and I take it back, it isn't spiritual terrorism, it's just garden-variety cultural and social abuse.

All Buddhist sects that adhere to the original teaching of the Buddha are nihilist - the Buddha did not believe in or promote any spiritual power or form of afterlife. To be Buddhist is to be nihilist, except for the dumbed-down branches intended for those well-intentioned but timid souls who cannot successfully face the concept of personal annihilation.

Are you referring to Aum Shinrikyo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aum_Shinrikyo) in speaking of Buddhist nihilists? As far as I know, they're the only Buddhist based sect that includes anything similar to the violent approach popular with rapture-oriented Xtians. Interestingly, the Aum Shinrikyo movement also includes a large Xtian component and an apocalyptic world-view based in part on the Xtian book of Revelation.

If you weren't thinking of Aum Shinrikyo, perhaps you could help me out and jog my memory - are there destructively nihilist Buddhist sects who's ideals compare to the hope for world destruction the raptuous Xtians yearn for?


I find the general emphasis, at least in the USA, upon the seizure of political power by this particular sect of Christianity is disturbing. There is no respect for separation of Church and State, from what I have observed, in this sect of Christianity and it appears that they desire to replace the current governing body of the nation with a theocracy. This is clearly counter to the protections afforded by the Constitution of the United States and runs a grave threat against the liberty and peace of the citizens of the nation.

I too find this a worrisome aspect, but since rigidity and lack of imagination seem to be frequent concomitants to apocalyptic belief, I don't think the likelihood of success is very high; it does not create a great deal of anxiety for me.


Unfortunately, again according to what I have witnessed in my dealings with this particular branch of Christianity, this is something that they seem to feel is appropriate. I could also tend to agree that the person who suggested that the belief in the Rapture and the attendant behaviors that go with is are a form of masochism. It's a rather disturbing combination to see in a social group that appears to be growing in political power and in social presence here in the USA.

I think you may be in a "can't see the forest for the trees" sort of mind state when it comes to fundamentalist Xtianity in general, and rapture-driven sects in particular. I do not think they are growing in political power and social presence, I think the situation is quite the opposite. They peaked several years ago, as best I can make out. Also, their demographics are miserable - people attracted to this sort of thinking are low on the totem pole, in Darwinian terms, and I expect this kind of thinking to be increasingly "selected against" in coming years.

Darth Brooks
November 25th, 2008, 01:14 PM
Yes, Darth, I was referring to Hagee, but I saw no reason to mention his name and up his hits...

Somebody mentioned Stormfront in another thread around here, and they're far far worse than Hagee.


Perhaps I was misunderstood, I can't tell from your comments, but I wasn't saying Hagee was an anti-Semite, or bringing up anti-Semitism in any way, I was simply offering his particular brand of rapture-boosting as an example of how this creed affects our society and culture, in general terms.Ah, I understand now. My apologies. I felt it necessary to explain about Hagee's perspective toward the Jews because he has been accused of being an anti-Semite before, precisely because of the Holocaust statements.


My personal feeling about the state of Israel is that it was a terrible mistake to concentrate a huge percentage of the Jewish nation in one location, where they become a perfect target for a nuke or two, and consequent extermination.

And that would be a great loss to humanity, were it to occur.Agreed. I'm not sure what I would have done about starting or not starting Israel, but I do agree that their extermination would be a great loss to humanity.

As for how guys like Hagee educate their flocks about "the Rapture" and other supposed apocalyptic events, I agree that their influence is not particularly the best. I'm of the opinion that more people should be taught to think about these things on an intellectual level. If Hagee's followers understood how apocalyptic beliefs have already influenced human history for the past 2,000 years, they might be less inclined to externalize them and take them literally. Unfortunately, they don't.

Cunae
November 25th, 2008, 06:38 PM
I'm inclined to agree - many of the putative Xtians I run into who are praising Jesus and tearing down in his name are simply taking advantage of the whole idea of rapture - but doesn't that indicate the overall negative value of this pernicious creed?


I think you may be in a "can't see the forest for the trees" sort of mind state when it comes to fundamentalist Xtianity in general, and rapture-driven sects in particular. I do not think they are growing in political power and social presence, I think the situation is quite the opposite. They peaked several years ago, as best I can make out. Also, their demographics are miserable - people attracted to this sort of thinking are low on the totem pole, in Darwinian terms, and I expect this kind of thinking to be increasingly "selected against" in coming years.

Can you please define what a "rapture-driven sect" is, please? Or at least what you believe it is.

I believe in the rapture, but I don't think of myself as driven by it. I believe the Holocaust was part of these events, but it's nothing that I condone or excuse or celebrate. It's all part of the horrible deterioration of humanity as prophecy plays itself out.

I support Israel because Christ was Jewish and the first Christians were Jewish... and I do believe they are God's chosen people. He tells us that those who bless His chosen will themselves be blessed, but I feel a kinship to them also.

Anyway, I hardly see myself as "low on the totem pole" for my beliefs. I assume you mean the closed-minded fundamentalists who prepare for the rapture every so often, as if anyone has a clue when it will happen. Not even Christ knows by His own admission! For me, it's a matter of course. I am not interested in hastening it or slowing it down, as if.

staticonthewire
November 25th, 2008, 11:08 PM
Can you please define what a "rapture-driven sect" is, please? Or at least what you believe it is.

Aum Shinrikyo is a rapture-driven sect. As a general rule, any group that fits the definition of "sect", and organizes itself primarily around "the rapture", whatever that means to them, would be a "rapture-driven sect".

But it was an ad hoc term, so all definitions are ad hoc. Hagee's church might qualify, but I don't know from personal research if that's true; that's a pool I'm unwilling to dip more than a toe into...


I believe in the rapture, but I don't think of myself as driven by it. I believe the Holocaust was part of these events, but it's nothing that I condone or excuse or celebrate. It's all part of the horrible deterioration of humanity as prophecy plays itself out.

Okay, so you aren't rapture-driven, you're just rapture-aware.

Personally, I think humanity is a good deal more enlightened and happy in this day and age than our species ever has been in the past. Compared to the atrocities of fifty or a hundred or a thousand or two thousand years ago, most of our modern pecadilloes are small change.

There have always been people who look at their present, extrapolate to the future and see things in the glummest possible light. Petronius' "Satyricon" contains apocalyptic passages, some early letters from Pharaonic Eqypt complain about the then wholly degenerate state of affairs, and how the world is headed to collapse, the ancient Norse were always fulminating about Ragnarok. There are always omens and signs painted brightly in the sky, two headed goats and kids that just don't have no respect.

But somehow, things keep ticking along.


I support Israel because Christ was Jewish and the first Christians were Jewish... and I do believe they are God's chosen people. He tells us that those who bless His chosen will themselves be blessed, but I feel a kinship to them also.

I support Israel because I have lots of friends and relatives there, but I think the establishment of a Jewish state in Israel was a tactical mistake, given the virulent hatred with which the Jewish nation is often regarded.

I too believe the Jews are god's chosen people - as are you, as am I. As are we all. Always keeping in mind that god almost certainly means something different to the two of us.


Anyway, I hardly see myself as "low on the totem pole" for my beliefs. I assume you mean the closed-minded fundamentalists who prepare for the rapture every so often, as if anyone has a clue when it will happen. Not even Christ knows by His own admission! For me, it's a matter of course. I am not interested in hastening it or slowing it down, as if.

I certainly never said all people who believe in the rapture are intellectually challenged, and I certainly didn't single anyone out. I do think that demographically - statistically - fundamentalist Xtians tend to lack education and discernment, and seem to come up a bit short when it comes to intellectual rigor. But I've never been a slave to actuarials, and I take people as I find them. You seem very fine.

In my original comment (the one where I got exercised about spiritual terrorism) I painted with a broader brush, as I recall, and rejected ALL mainstream religion, not just Xtianity. I like to think I despise all "gang" beliefs equally, without any prejudice at all.

But I despise very few believers.

I have a lot of respect for people taking their own spiritual path. I distrust hierarchies and power structures, and that's all organized religion seems to be, to me. Whatever stripe of belief they pretend to, they all seem to be nothing more than ways for some people to manipulate and get over on gullible others.

staticonthewire
November 25th, 2008, 11:26 PM
Somebody mentioned Stormfront in another thread around here, and they're far far worse than Hagee.

Yes, I suppose they are, although I don't know either group well. But it didn't matter to me that Hagee isn't the worst. He's bad enough; he's viral enough, he's become a very funny meme-topic on YTMND, why should I boost him up any further? But no criticism implied of you for mentioning it, it's just a matter of personal preference, hm? I'm always caught between the necessity for rigor in my postings (which would call for mentioning Hagee's name) and the desire to do my small part in keeping this sort of swill to a dull roar on the net...


Ah, I understand now. My apologies. I felt it necessary to explain about Hagee's perspective toward the Jews because he has been accused of being an anti-Semite before, precisely because of the Holocaust statements.

Nah, I never pegged him for an anti-Semite, although it wouldn't surprise me. But as I said, I know squat about him.

Lots of Xtians seems to be ambivalent about "the people who killed our lord", as it was put to me once.


If Hagee's followers understood how apocalyptic beliefs have already influenced human history for the past 2,000 years, they might be less inclined to externalize them and take them literally. Unfortunately, they don't.

The study of history is not respectable in our modern times, is it. But it sure gives one a sense of perspective. People have been shouting "apocalypse" and "second coming" ever since the first coming, assuming such an historical event.

There's always some magic reason why it's NOW, and there's always the conviction that things are bad, worse than they've EVER been, and only a messiah can sort them out. Even though the general trend of human history is toward the good and toward the light.

Screw it all - I'm gonna go flip some pancakes... Happy Thanksgiving man, if you celebrate it. If not, have a really good Thursday, hm?

Cunae
November 26th, 2008, 12:01 AM
You seem very fine.




As do you! :thumbsup:

Lahmi
November 26th, 2008, 02:11 AM
I know Xtians who take every opportunity to foment destruction, lay waste to society, in the belief that they are "hastening the rapture". Not my idea of a good neighbor.

I just watched a Youtube vid of some pestilent preacher claiming Hitler was doing "god's work" because he drove the Jews to Israel and hastened the rapture. Also not my idea of a good neighbor, "y'all".

He sure is coherent, though...

This sort of willful nihilism is, I think, the largest effect of rapture-oriented thinking. Personally, it strikes me as a particularly corrosive brand of the spiritual terrorism at which most major religions excel...
Actually, since the people you are discussing don't seem to be following the teachings of Jesus, I'd say you know some 'churchians' that foment destruction.
They're a different breed all together.

Lahmi
November 26th, 2008, 02:22 AM
:alol:


You're kidding right? Who do you think are largely responsible for Proposition 8 in California? Good nieghbours my ass.
conservatives, some christian, some not.

Caitlin.ann
November 26th, 2008, 02:25 AM
conservatives, some christian, some not.

I heard a lot of african americans and hispanics voted for prop 8. Hispanics are generally catholic. So Christians, not necessarily conservatives.

ETA: Because Christians didn't do this:


Rally in support of California Proposition 8. Ron Luce was one of the leaders of a youth rally, "The Fine Line," held in support of California Proposition 8 on October 1, 2008 at Rock Church in San Diego[43]. Proposition 8 is an initiative that would constitutionally prohibit same-sex marriage in California. Luce presented the "8 for 8" action plan at the conclusion of the event.[44]
Message encouraging support of California Proposition 8. On October 30, 2008, Teen Mania distributed an e-mail message to supporters reminding readers of the Battle Cry rallies in San Francisco, "when a culture war was stirred up right there on the street in front of City Hall," casting those Battle Cry and similar events as the reason why "important issues are coming to the forefront and being decided right now." The featured battle "still being fought at the highest levels of California's government" centered on the definition of marriage contained in Proposition 8. The message included this quote from San Diego pastor Jim Garlow: "The definition of marriage is one of these 'tipping points.' No single social issue has threatened to forever muzzle Bible believing Christians like this contest. One person has astutely observed that 'we cannot win the culture war merely on Prop 8, but we can lose it on Prop 8.'" Readers were asked "to continue to get involved however possible to protect the Biblical view of marriage in America" and were directed to iprotectmarriage.com, a website that is part of the youth outreach of the "Yes on 8" campaign. The e-mail was signed by Kevin Benson, "Director of the BattleCry Campaign."[45]

Linkey (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_Cry_Campaign)

And the mormons weren't a large supporter of Prop 8 either.

Don't blame this on the conservatives when quite clearly it is members from your own RELIGION that did this! It would be completely futile to try to pass the blame. It doesn't help that evangelical christians tend to fall into the conservative category. Nope, not two ways about it..you CAN'T pass the blame on this one.

staticonthewire
November 26th, 2008, 12:43 PM
Actually, since the people you are discussing don't seem to be following the teachings of Jesus, I'd say you know some 'churchians' that foment destruction.
They're a different breed all together.

Maybe, but this is the sort of hairsplitting that leads to ethical waffling. They're professing Xtians; they think they're following the teachings of Jesus - who are you to say they're wrong?

I'm inclined to take them at their word.

cydira
November 26th, 2008, 06:40 PM
Maybe, but this is the sort of hairsplitting that leads to ethical waffling. They're professing Xtians; they think they're following the teachings of Jesus - who are you to say they're wrong?

I'm inclined to take them at their word.

This is where I am inclined to point at the term 'heretical sects' because the theology they espouse is well outside the orthodox theology. Sure, it contains elements of the orthodoxy, but just because I honor a deity of a given belief system does not make me a practitioner of it, does it? I would argue that this is a difference that allows for one to point out the differences between things such as Arianism, Gnosticism, and early Catholicism. *shrug*

Just my $0.02, as my knowledge of Christianity is primarily academic.

Darth Brooks
November 26th, 2008, 07:20 PM
Screw it all - I'm gonna go flip some pancakes... Happy Thanksgiving man, if you celebrate it. If not, have a really good Thursday, hm?

You're darned tootin' I celebrate Turkey Day. Happy Turkey Day to you too, man, and enjoy eating yourself a nice big feast tomorrow! :)

staticonthewire
November 26th, 2008, 08:49 PM
This is where I am inclined to point at the term 'heretical sects' because the theology they espouse is well outside the orthodox theology. Sure, it contains elements of the orthodoxy, but just because I honor a deity of a given belief system does not make me a practitioner of it, does it? I would argue that this is a difference that allows for one to point out the differences between things such as Arianism, Gnosticism, and early Catholicism. *shrug*

Just my $0.02, as my knowledge of Christianity is primarily academic.

Yeah I get it, and yeah, there's a point at which you have to ask who's who, but as far as I can tell, it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck. This stuff is extreme to outsiders, but to Xtians, this is the standard bill of fare, this apocalyptic stuff, this rapture belief. It's mainstream, man. So a few Xtians decide they'll try to hasten the rapture - what's the big deal, if you're also Xtian? You can frown and say they're misguided, but in truth, the fringies become just one more sign.

And they're happy with it, by and large.

But screw it all - the general tendency of life is toward increased understanding, increased awareness, increased goodness. This kind of potchka-rei will fade, is fading. Good goddess, look at the millenialists from 1000CE, and compare them to the sheepish, somewhat self-conscious millenialists from 2000CE; now that's progress.

As I said in an earlier post - this sort of belief is subject to Darwinian pressures like any other meme, and it's fading away. Bless the day it's all just laughed at.

In the meantime, I raise a glass to those I've met in this thread who can take something like the rapture and make something worthwhile out of it. No doubt it was a real challenge - I celebrate you.

Happy holidays everyone.

DoktorSick
November 26th, 2008, 09:11 PM
If ony there was a way for those rapture ready folks to give up some of that cash.Before there so called rapture.

Lahmi
November 26th, 2008, 09:18 PM
Maybe, but this is the sort of hairsplitting that leads to ethical waffling. They're professing Xtians; they think they're following the teachings of Jesus - who are you to say they're wrong?

I'm inclined to take them at their word.someone who actually is following Jesus, and reads the Bible for myself. :)

Lahmi
November 26th, 2008, 09:19 PM
I heard a lot of african americans and hispanics voted for prop 8. Hispanics are generally catholic. So Christians, not necessarily conservatives.

ETA: Because Christians didn't do this:



Linkey (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_Cry_Campaign)

And the mormons weren't a large supporter of Prop 8 either.

Don't blame this on the conservatives when quite clearly it is members from your own RELIGION that did this! It would be completely futile to try to pass the blame. It doesn't help that evangelical christians tend to fall into the conservative category. Nope, not two ways about it..you CAN'T pass the blame on this one.

LOL
conservatives, some christian, some not.... some who believe in the rapture, some who don't... :)

Caitlin.ann
November 26th, 2008, 09:21 PM
LOL
conservatives, some christian, some not.... some who believe in the rapture, some who don't... :)

No. Christians.

Lahmi
November 26th, 2008, 10:34 PM
no. Christians.

lol

Infinite Grey
November 29th, 2008, 03:25 PM
conservatives, some christian, some not.

Weak. Yeah there are some other social conservatives out there... some of them are even non-theists... most are - and in the USA, the vast majority of social conservatives are Christian; and Evangelical at that (Though Catholics make up a great deal of them too). To through such a weak argument forward like "not all Conservatives are Christian" only illustrates an apologist type mindset - or a position on very sandy grounds.

Vampiel
November 29th, 2008, 04:39 PM
In other words, it is a fairly recent development in the history of Christianity. It may not be part of the "fringe" in terms of the current American Christian population, but it is certainly part of the "fringe" as far as Christian history goes.

Ive always viewed this type of belief as a part of the second coming of Christ.



I myself do not believe in the Rapture, though I do hold what some might consider to be "apocalyptic beliefs." (I would argue they are purely eschatological, not necessarily "apocalyptic.") That is to say, I do have my own notions of a "rhythm of history" or a "divine plan" if you will, that will eventually be culminated in a series of major events that will mark the end of our current era and the beginning of a new one. But keep in mind I am describing something that is better suited to the original Greek meaning of the word "apocalypse," as in the sense of a revelation; not to the "common knowledge" definition of "apocalypse" that is most popularly used today. (It should also be kept in mind that Christians and other monotheists are not the only ones to possess eschatological elements of faith, either. Ragnarok would be an example of a Norse pagan eschatology.)

My only objection to most forms of belief in the Rapture today is that I happen to take something of an Augustinian view toward the subject: i.e., I think that when it comes to echatology, the "prophecies" are best internalized and understood as present and immanent (as opposed to externalizing them and understanding them as being imminent events that will literally take place exactly as the "prophecy" is written - and yes, there is a difference between "imminent" and "immanent"). The Augustinian position strikes me as being much more down-to-earth, sober, and spiritually "true" than, say, the "pop apocalypticism" that is propagated by guys like LaHaye and Jenkins today.

This is all very confusing. :ahhhh::crazyman:

staticonthewire
November 29th, 2008, 05:07 PM
Originally Posted by staticonthewire http://mysticwicks.com/enlighten/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?p=3783207#post3783207)
Maybe, but this is the sort of hairsplitting that leads to ethical waffling. They're professing Xtians; they think they're following the teachings of Jesus - who are you to say they're wrong?

I'm inclined to take them at their word.


someone who actually is following Jesus, and reads the Bible for myself. :)

Again - who made you arbiter of what's REALLY Xtian and what's not? The skinheads that pound Jews for Jesus are equally convinced that they "actually follow Jesus and read the bible for themselves". What makes you right and them wrong?

This is the problem with following external guides as a source of morality or rules for living, whether they're books or preachers or whatever. They're all subject to interpretation, and only those who are already wise - and consequently don't need the book - are able to interpret it in a non-destructive way.

As far as I can see, YOUR interpretation of the bible is no more valid then the chap down the road from me, who wants to burn me as a witch, and thinks he talks to angels with his transistor radio.

I'd be happy to entertain the notion that you have a special line on truth, if you could give some reason for believing so. Until then, you're (forgive me) just one more yammerer.

Vampiel
November 29th, 2008, 05:17 PM
no more valid then the chap down the road from me, who wants to burn me as a witch, and thinks he talks to angels with his transistor radio.

:2G: ya... ya knew about that.... didnt know anyone knew about that... *runs to hide his transistor radio*



Again - who made you arbiter of what's REALLY Xtian and what's not? The skinheads that pound Jews for Jesus are equally convinced that they "actually follow Jesus and read the bible for themselves". What makes you right and them wrong?


Ive been saying this for years and years. You can say that you KNOW just as much as the chap down the road can say that he KNOWS. So who's right? They think they are and you think you are, but ya cant both be correct.


Just from that you know that you cant really know. Ya know?

I think more people need to consider the high probability that you are incorrect. Even science is incorrect constantly and theories are always evolving.

I dont think I know anything, and am fairly sure im incorrect about it all. I just go with what I think because thats all I can do.:weirdsmil

Lahmi
November 29th, 2008, 10:18 PM
Originally Posted by staticonthewire http://mysticwicks.com/enlighten/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?p=3783207#post3783207)
Maybe, but this is the sort of hairsplitting that leads to ethical waffling. They're professing Xtians; they think they're following the teachings of Jesus - who are you to say they're wrong?

I'm inclined to take them at their word.



Again - who made you arbiter of what's REALLY Xtian and what's not? The skinheads that pound Jews for Jesus are equally convinced that they "actually follow Jesus and read the bible for themselves". What makes you right and them wrong?

This is the problem with following external guides as a source of morality or rules for living, whether they're books or preachers or whatever. They're all subject to interpretation, and only those who are already wise - and consequently don't need the book - are able to interpret it in a non-destructive way.

As far as I can see, YOUR interpretation of the bible is no more valid then the chap down the road from me, who wants to burn me as a witch, and thinks he talks to angels with his transistor radio.

I'd be happy to entertain the notion that you have a special line on truth, if you could give some reason for believing so. Until then, you're (forgive me) just one more yammerer.

LOL

I'll let you read the Gospel of Luke and decide whether I am the one that is correct, or the skinheads.

teishabee
November 30th, 2008, 08:11 AM
Maybe your finding this a bit insulting Lahmi and I know the people dont mean to offend.

All were really trying to say is that all people can have is opinions on the interpretation of the bible.

Therefore noone is right or wrong in their views.

Unfortunately we dont have a the authors around to question about the texts and there true meaning.


Just from that you know that you cant really know. Ya know?


I think that strong belief is stopping people from thinking this way.

Personally I question my faith more often then not.

staticonthewire
November 30th, 2008, 11:03 AM
Maybe your finding this a bit insulting Lahmi and I know the people dont mean to offend.

All were really trying to say is that all people can have is opinions on the interpretation of the bible.

Therefore noone is right or wrong in their views.

Unfortunately we dont have a the authors around to question about the texts and there true meaning.



I think that strong belief is stopping people from thinking this way.

Personally I question my faith more often then not.

Thank you Teishabee, and Vampiel too, for saying it better than I could. Lahmi, I'm not criticizing you personally, I'm just trying to point out that your reading of Luke or Revelations or whatever is just that - YOUR reading. Other people interpret it differently. There's nothing special about your point of view for any of us (although of course there is for you), we have no reason to prefer your interpretation to anyone else's.

The Xtian bible - particularly the heart of it in the Pentateuch - doesn't just TALK about the Tower of Babel - unless handled very carefully, it IS the Tower of Babel...

So the point was made early on in this thread that the rapture doesn't necessarily make believers "good neighbors", as you contended. Several posts pointed out how terribly UN-neighborly it could make believers, and I still haven't heard anything convincing from you to incline me to think otherwise.

"LOL - Read Luke" doesn't really cut it...

staticonthewire
November 30th, 2008, 11:06 AM
:2G: ya... ya knew about that.... didnt know anyone knew about that... *runs to hide his transistor radio*

...


I dont think I know anything, and am fairly sure im incorrect about it all. I just go with what I think because thats all I can do.:weirdsmil

Oh, EVERYONE knows about the RADIO...

And don't be so modest, Vampiel - I suspect you're incorrect when you say you're incorrect about it all...

... 'course, you might be incorrect about that too...

staticonthewire
November 30th, 2008, 11:19 AM
...You can say that you KNOW just as much as the chap down the road can say that he KNOWS. So who's right? They think they are and you think you are, but ya cant both be correct.

The thing that keeps me awake at night, of course, is the possibility that we live in a cosmos in which both really ARE correct...

Infinite Grey
November 30th, 2008, 12:37 PM
The thing that keeps me awake at night, of course, is the possibility that we live in a cosmos in which both really ARE correct...

The possibility that either or both do not keep me awake at night - the fact that people believe that either or bother are correct has been known to give me the beginnings of an ulcer.

Thunder
November 30th, 2008, 01:26 PM
Without getting into what I believe... as a scientist the first thing I do is look at the numbers. I am sorry but, just because this guy states that 22% of the American people believe that the rapture will absolutely occur in our lifetime and another 22% believe it likely will don't make it so. I would be surprised if those numbers were true for Christians, let alone the entire American electorate. In fact I would be surprised if you could even find 22% of the populace who didn't need the term defined for them first.

The world has been filled with people who have claimed imminent destruction for at least the last century siting all manner of Global Conflict (WWI, WWII, Cuban Missile Crisis) that has come and gone and signified nothing.

I think that the "Left Behind" website is the perfect hobby for Nostra-dumbass. It keeps him busy.

Caitlin.ann
November 30th, 2008, 04:28 PM
Most of my family members believe in the rapture, literally, as its described by the "Left Behind" series. Such beliefs don't terrify me like they apparently do other posters, but maybe thats a cultural thing. *sigh* Its a common belief at least around here it seems.

watersprite
November 30th, 2008, 04:33 PM
I plan to stay here and make fun of all the "Christians" who thought they were going!

Cunae
November 30th, 2008, 07:46 PM
I plan to stay here and make fun of all the "Christians" who thought they were going!

Not a very nice thing to say, WS. Really. It's never polite to make fun of other people, even Christians.

Romans 14 answers all of this for me. The theme of the text is: to each his own. 14:12-13 says "Each of us will give an account of himself to God. Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another."

I have no reason to look down on the beliefs of other people, so I don't, but the Bible clearly tells me I shouldn't.

watersprite
November 30th, 2008, 07:57 PM
Not a very nice thing to say, WS. Really. It's never polite to make fun of other people, even Christians.

Romans 14 answers all of this for me. The theme of the text is: to each his own. 14:12-13 says "Each of us will give an account of himself to God. Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another."

I have no reason to look down on the beliefs of other people, so I don't, but the Bible clearly tells me I shouldn't.
I am sick to death of all these folks telling me what to say, how to be, how to live, what choices I MUST make.
The BIBLE is a BOOK written by MEN with their own agendas. Not some item that mysteriously fell from the heavens and multiplied with any interpretation any body wanted to use for their financial, slave holding, anti-human rights agenda the want to use. Right down to revelations, which is not to be interpreted by anyone, supposedly, but is every day. And I do intend to stay here with all those interpreting folks who held themselves above everybody else in the planet.
so, whether you like it or not, as long as I am not attacking you personally by name here, I will say what I will, nice or not.

Cunae
November 30th, 2008, 08:16 PM
Chill out. No one is telling you how to live, what to say, etc (except maybe your parents!) and no one is forcing the Bible down your throat, especially on MW. I am sorry if it has happened to you elsewhere. I am saying the Bible tells Christians not to judge other people. I wish they would all read that chapter and adhere to it.

As for making fun of other people's beliefs, it's my understanding that sort of thing is frowned on around here so I'd be careful.

Thunder
November 30th, 2008, 08:19 PM
I am sick to death of all these folks telling me what to say, how to be, how to live, what choices I MUST make.
The BIBLE is a BOOK written by MEN with their own agendas. Not some item that mysteriously fell from the heavens and multiplied with any interpretation any body wanted to use for their financial, slave holding, anti-human rights agenda the want to use. Right down to revelations, which is not to be interpreted by anyone, supposedly, but is every day. And I do intend to stay here with all those interpreting folks who held themselves above everybody else in the planet.
so, whether you like it or not, as long as I am not attacking you personally by name here, I will say what I will, nice or not.I am pretty much with WS on this one... If all this Rapture stuff turns out to be true, once it happens... what possible difference could it make if we (watersprite and I) are rude to hypocrites. Come on Mystic Christian... we are talking about people who are going to hell being snarky to each other. Cut us some slack.:bigredgri

Cunae
November 30th, 2008, 08:25 PM
I am pretty much with WS on this one... If all this Rapture stuff turns out to be true, once it happens... what possible difference could it make if we (watersprite and I) are rude to hypocrites. Come on Mystic Christian... we are talking about people who are going to hell being snarky to each other. Cut us some slack.:bigredgri

I am getting weary of the "hypocrites" excuse for slamming Christians. Even on a pagan/other site, there shouldn't be ridicule of another faith... even if you two are going to hell, you could at least be polite in mixed company. :toofless:

Thunder
November 30th, 2008, 08:30 PM
I am getting weary of the "hypocrites" excuse for slamming Christians. Even on a pagan/other site, there shouldn't be ridicule of another faith... even if you two are going to hell, you could at least be polite in mixed company. :toofless:But we are speaking hypothetically and we are talking about those NOT taken up in the Rapture... not the ones who were... they , of course, would have been right and we will have been screwed. Grant us a few pointless epithets as we burn... M'Lady.:smile:

Caitlin.ann
November 30th, 2008, 08:31 PM
Woah..I'm actually with WS about this one.


Not a very nice thing to say, WS. Really. It's never polite to make fun of other people, even Christians.

Romans 14 answers all of this for me. The theme of the text is: to each his own. 14:12-13 says "Each of us will give an account of himself to God. Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another."

I have no reason to look down on the beliefs of other people, so I don't, but the Bible clearly tells me I shouldn't.

Personally I think what she said was spot on and quite appropriate, but thats just me. And you quoting the Bible at us is the typical bible thumping that I see all the time in real life and on the net. Point being, we're pagans, hunny, not Christians and not bible quoting in the world will necessarily convince us of anything. Its a waste of computer space. "The Bible tells you you shouldn't make fun of people" is more or less what you said. Thats great, your book, your path, whatever, not ours. Please do not quote it at us as how we should act.


Chill out. No one is telling you how to live, what to say, etc (except maybe your parents!) and no one is forcing the Bible down your throat, especially on MW. I am sorry if it has happened to you elsewhere. I am saying the Bible tells Christians not to judge other people. I wish they would all read that chapter and adhere to it.

As for making fun of other people's beliefs, it's my understanding that sort of thing is frowned on around here so I'd be careful.

Really? No one telling her or any of us how to live or what to say? Isn't that what the scripture excerpt was all about? Her parents? Shes an adult why would her parents tell her what to say or do or act? You weren't flashing scripture at us? Really?


I am getting weary of the "hypocrites" excuse for slamming Christians. Even on a pagan/other site, there shouldn't be ridicule of another faith... even if you two are going to hell, you could at least be polite in mixed company. :toofless:
There shouldn't be scripture forced at me, or anyone else either..:toofless: Its a two way street, darlin'!

Cunae
November 30th, 2008, 08:36 PM
I was quoting scripture to SHOW THAT CHRISTIANS shouldn't be slamming other people for their beliefs. We follow the Bible so this is what it tells us. The response is in reference to someone saying we preach too much to other people. We need to preach to ourselves first and foremost.

Go back and read it again, sweetie. The mixed company remark, however, was meant for here. I don't think it proves any intelligence or point at all to make fun of someone else, even though it was only suggested not yet accomplished.

sheesh :smileroll

Thunder
November 30th, 2008, 08:45 PM
I was quoting scripture to SHOW THAT CHRISTIANS shouldn't be slamming other people for their beliefs. We follow the Bible so this is what it tells us. The response is in reference to someone saying we preach too much to other people. We need to preach to ourselves first and foremost.

Go back and read it again, sweetie. The mixed company remark, however, was meant for here. I don't think it proves any intelligence or point at all to make fun of someone else, even though it was only suggested not yet accomplished.

sheesh :smilerollMaking fun of people is an ancient and honorable tradition among ... er... well ... OK, damnit... ME. Humor is not a sin.

Darth Brooks
November 30th, 2008, 08:47 PM
Ive always viewed this type of belief as a part of the second coming of Christ.

Well you're right, it is usually viewed as being part of Christ's return, or rather a signal thereof, but the point I was trying to make was that yes, Christians have always believed that Jesus will come back somehow someway, figuratively or literally, but this "rapture" business didn't really start until the 1800's. There is not much mention of any "rapture" of any kind during the first eighteen centuries of Christianity's existence, which is something these "Left Behind" folks don't really seem to realize. However, I can see how this would make very little difference to some people.


This is all very confusing. :ahhhh::crazyman:Well, here's an example of what I mean. Take the idea of Antichrist, for instance. Now throughout Christian history, Christians have identified various individuals whom they have literally believed to be the Antichrist, such as Nero, Julian, Frederick II, etc. -- all the way down to people like Saddam Hussein and Osama bin Laden today. However, even in the earliest days of Christianity, there were Christian writers who supported an entirely different view. Writers like Origen and Augustine in particular said that Christians ought to spend more time looking for the "Antichrist within" - i.e., the impulse within Christians to do anti-Christian things in the name of Jesus. According to this view, the Antichrist is not necessarily a specific person but Christians whose faith is "all hat and no cattle." I'm more inclined to take this school of thought more seriously than the former, because it makes more sense to me that Antichrist should be something greater than any single person, and that it should come from within Christianity, not from without.

However, since I'm not a Christian myself, my own view on this matter will probably strike most as unimportant. But this is what I mean when I say I take more of an "Augustinian" view toward apocalyptic beliefs (and not just Christian ones). To me, these kinds of beliefs represent things that figuratively take place within the heart and soul of the individual believer, not necessarily as literal events that will actually take place in the world. (Though don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that the world won't end eventually - I'm just saying that if it is going to end, I have no idea when, why, or how it might happen.) Likewise, I don't believe that Ragnarok is literally going to happen like it says it will in Norse mythology, but I do see how "the Twilight of the Gods" might take on a deeper kind of reality in the hearts and souls of Asatruar who battle against the forces of societal decay (or what they might perceive to be such).

This is what I mean when I differentiate between "imminent" apocalyptic beliefs (i.e., "The Apocalypse is a literal event and it's going to happen any minute now!") and "immanent" apocalyptic beliefs (i.e., "The Apocalypse is something that is happening inside ourselves each and every day.")

Cunae
November 30th, 2008, 08:50 PM
Making fun of people is an ancient and honorable tradition among ... er... well ... OK, damnit... ME. Humor is not a sin.

I agree. Humor is wonderful! And I love to laugh with my tonsils showing... however, making fun of someone is juvenile and seldom even close to funny.

I think I will bow out of the conversation now because I feel uncomfortable in this thread. It could get ugly and I don't want to be a part of this negativity... nor do I want to be around if an Admin starts admonishing people!

Yeah, Christians are cowards... or something to that effect. :kooky: I'll pray for you guys. <cough>

Caitlin.ann
November 30th, 2008, 08:51 PM
I was quoting scripture to SHOW THAT CHRISTIANS shouldn't be slamming other people for their beliefs. We follow the Bible so this is what it tells us. The response is in reference to someone saying we preach too much to other people. We need to preach to ourselves first and foremost. Maybe you should preach to your fellow Christians. Lord only knows they could use the help.


Go back and read it again, sweetie. The mixed company remark, however, was meant for here. I don't think it proves any intelligence or point at all to make fun of someone else, even though it was only suggested not yet accomplished.

sheesh :smileroll

Pass, but thanks for the tip sugar pie.

Thunder
November 30th, 2008, 08:54 PM
Well you're right, it is usually viewed as being part of Christ's return, or rather a signal thereof, but the point I was trying to make was that yes, Christians have always believed that Jesus will come back somehow someway, figuratively or literally, but this "rapture" business didn't really start until the 1800's. There is not much mention of any "rapture" of any kind during the first eighteen centuries of Christianity's existence, which is something these "Left Behind" folks don't really seem to realize. However, I can see how this would make very little difference to some people.

Well, here's an example of what I mean. Take the idea of Antichrist, for instance. Now throughout Christian history, Christians have identified various individuals whom they have literally believed to be the Antichrist, such as Nero, Julian, Frederick II, etc. -- all the way down to people like Saddam Hussein and Osama bin Laden today. However, even in the earliest days of Christianity, there were Christian writers who supported an entirely different view. Writers like Origen and Augustine in particular said that Christians ought to spend more time looking for the "Antichrist within" - i.e., the impulse within Christians to do anti-Christian things in the name of Jesus. According to this view, the Antichrist is not necessarily a specific person but Christians whose faith is "all hat and no cattle." I'm more inclined to take this school of thought more seriously than the former, because it makes more sense to me that Antichrist should be something greater than any single person, and that it should come from within Christianity, not from without.

However, since I'm not a Christian myself, my own view on this matter will probably strike most as unimportant. But this is what I mean when I say I take more of an "Augustinian" view toward apocalyptic beliefs (and not just Christian ones). To me, these kinds of beliefs represent things that figuratively take place within the heart and soul of the individual believer, not necessarily as literal events that will actually take place in the world. (Though don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that the world won't end eventually - I'm just saying that if it is going to end, I have no idea when, why, or how it might happen.) Likewise, I don't believe that Ragnarok is literally going to happen like it says it will in Norse mythology, but I do see how "the Twilight of the Gods" might take on a deeper kind of reality in the hearts and souls of Asatruar who battle against the forces of societal decay (or what they might perceive to be such).

This is what I mean when I differentiate between "imminent" apocalyptic beliefs (i.e., "The Apocalypse is a literal event and it's going to happen any minute now!") and "immanent" apocalyptic beliefs (i.e., "The Apocalypse is something that is happening inside ourselves each and every day.")I think your view is right on the money and very well put. You have done much thinking and studying on this. I have enjoyed your posts.

LacyRoze
November 30th, 2008, 09:09 PM
Maybe you should preach to your fellow Christians. Lord only knows they could use the help.



Gee, thanks. Yep,, we're all just idiots..:weirdsmil

Personally, if you want to ridicule others and their beliefs, go for it. Doesn't bother me. I've never rammed the bible down anyone's throat nor will I. If I'm wrong in my beliefs as a Christian, God will judge me for it and what others think really doesn't matter one iota. I live my life to best of my abilities and that's all I can do. Seems to me that's what we're all doing.

Caitlin.ann
November 30th, 2008, 09:15 PM
Gee, thanks. Yep,, we're all just idiots..:weirdsmil

Personally, if you want to ridicule others and their beliefs, go for it. Doesn't bother me. I've never rammed the bible down anyone's throat nor will I. If I'm wrong in my beliefs as a Christian, God will judge me for it and what others think really doesn't matter one iota. I live my life to best of my abilities and that's all I can do. Seems to me that's what we're all doing.

A lot of the ones I come across online..yes they are. Are there any of those here? Maybe maybe not. You decide. Now, did I say all Christians are guilty for Bible ramming? No indeed I did not. Are you offended because you THINK I said that? Seems so. If it doesn't matter then why are you responding as if you have been offended? And isn't living life to the best of ones ability all anyone can do? Seems to me what many people are doing themselves.

~Elise~
November 30th, 2008, 09:23 PM
Okay, folks...you're in the Abrahamic Faiths forum, if you hadn't noticed. If the Bible is quoted here...it's okay. That's what this forum is for. If you don't like that, don't come into this forum. The only rule is no proselytizing of any faith. No bashing of any faith, either.


Be polite and respectful...I'm not seeing it right now. Infractions are coming next, if this doesn't stop.

Elise

Vampiel
November 30th, 2008, 09:34 PM
Well, here's an example of what I mean. Take the idea of Antichrist, for instance. Now throughout Christian history, Christians have identified various individuals whom they have literally believed to be the Antichrist, such as Nero, Julian, Frederick II, etc. -- all the way down to people like Saddam Hussein and Osama bin Laden today. However, even in the earliest days of Christianity, there were Christian writers who supported an entirely different view. Writers like Origen and Augustine in particular said that Christians ought to spend more time looking for the "Antichrist within" - i.e., the impulse within Christians to do anti-Christian things in the name of Jesus. According to this view, the Antichrist is not necessarily a specific person but Christians whose faith is "all hat and no cattle." I'm more inclined to take this school of thought more seriously than the former, because it makes more sense to me that Antichrist should be something greater than any single person, and that it should come from within Christianity, not from without.

However, since I'm not a Christian myself, my own view on this matter will probably strike most as unimportant. But this is what I mean when I say I take more of an "Augustinian" view toward apocalyptic beliefs (and not just Christian ones). To me, these kinds of beliefs represent things that figuratively take place within the heart and soul of the individual believer, not necessarily as literal events that will actually take place in the world. (Though don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that the world won't end eventually - I'm just saying that if it is going to end, I have no idea when, why, or how it might happen.) Likewise, I don't believe that Ragnarok is literally going to happen like it says it will in Norse mythology, but I do see how "the Twilight of the Gods" might take on a deeper kind of reality in the hearts and souls of Asatruar who battle against the forces of societal decay (or what they might perceive to be such).

This is what I mean when I differentiate between "imminent" apocalyptic beliefs (i.e., "The Apocalypse is a literal event and it's going to happen any minute now!") and "immanent" apocalyptic beliefs (i.e., "The Apocalypse is something that is happening inside ourselves each and every day.")

I see and thats an interesting take on it and quite insightful. I wonder if perhaps you could relate this to other things in the bible that it relates to personal experiences rather than actual events.

LacyRoze
November 30th, 2008, 09:40 PM
A lot of the ones I come across online..yes they are. Are there any of those here? Maybe maybe not. You decide. Now, did I say all Christians are guilty for Bible ramming? No indeed I did not. Are you offended because you THINK I said that? Seems so. If it doesn't matter then why are you responding as if you have been offended? And isn't living life to the best of ones ability all anyone can do? Seems to me what many people are doing themselves.

No, you didn't say that all Christians are guilty of Bible ramming nor did I say you did. I simply stated that I have never done so nor will I. I simply stated my beliefs to point out that not all Christians are the same. Yes, living life to one's best ability is all any of us can do, never said otherwise. Again, I was simply stating my beliefs.

Caitlin.ann
November 30th, 2008, 09:41 PM
No, you didn't say that all Christians are guilty of Bible ramming nor did I say you did. I simply stated that I have never done so nor will I. I simply stated my beliefs to point out that not all Christians are the same. Yes, living life to one's best ability is all any of us can do, never said otherwise. Again, I was simply stating my beliefs.

And you are very much welcome to yours as I am welcome to mine.

LacyRoze
November 30th, 2008, 10:00 PM
Good grief. I never said anyone wasn't entitled to their own beliefs.

Ya'll have a nice night.

Caitlin.ann
November 30th, 2008, 10:01 PM
Good grief. I never said anyone wasn't entitled to their own beliefs.

Ya'll have a nice night.

Lol, I never said you didn't. ;)

Lahmi
November 30th, 2008, 10:02 PM
And you are very much welcome to yours as I am welcome to mine.

Ah, would that it were so.... for it seems that we may not, actually, be welcome to ours.
That's okay though. :)
And to the poster that was concerned that I might be offended, I'm not.
In a way it's kind of amusing, since one of the reasons I come here is to get
away from toxic churchianity which is found elsewhere that I post at times.


As far as suggesting that someone read the Gospel of Luke and judge for themselves
whether or not I am following Jesus with my actions, or one of the many hate
groups that try to convince folks that They are the ones that are christian...
That is in fact the standard by which our actions should be taken to.
Personally I fall short at times, but since Christians actually have a written
standard of behaviour to look to, that is what we should strive for.

Luke 10:
26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?

27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart,
and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind;
and thy neighbour as thyself.

Caitlin.ann
November 30th, 2008, 10:09 PM
Ah, would that it were so.... for it seems that we may not, actually, be welcome to ours.
What?



And to the poster that was concerned that I might be offended, I'm not.
In a way it's kind of amusing, since one of the reasons I come here is to get
away from toxic churchianity which is found elsewhere that I post at times.
I'm assuming you're not alluding to me since my post was specifically to another member.

Thunder
November 30th, 2008, 10:15 PM
I agree. Humor is wonderful! And I love to laugh with my tonsils showing... however, making fun of someone is juvenile and seldom even close to funny. Whether that someone is yourself, another person, another people, another race, nationality or profession...etc... Mocking is the seed of all comedy... like it or not. You misread the very first post that you took issue with. Had you read it more carefully we wouldn't be having this conversation now. A little light hearted jabbing is not disrespect... nor is humor. I'd be willing to bet that Jesus told a few knee slappers himself in the day. I never did buy the Church's characterization of him.

I think I will bow out of the conversation now because I feel uncomfortable in this thread. It could get ugly and I don't want to be a part of this negativity... nor do I want to be around if an Admin starts admonishing people!

Yeah, Christians are cowards... or something to that effect. :kooky: I'll pray for you guys. <cough>Make those prayers to Wakaŋ Tȟaŋka... so I'll get the benefit... the God of my youth seems to have abandoned me.

Thunder
November 30th, 2008, 10:40 PM
Not a very nice thing to say, WS. Really. It's never polite to make fun of other people, even Christians.

Romans 14 answers all of this for me. The theme of the text is: to each his own. 14:12-13 says "Each of us will give an account of himself to God. Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another."

I have no reason to look down on the beliefs of other people, so I don't, but the Bible clearly tells me I shouldn't.This is out of context and... frankly, not what this text means. You left out the most important part of the reading. It is not easily understood so I am not surprised. The teaching of this text is not to stop judging others, it is to behave in such a way as not to tempt others to judge you. To each his own? I'm not seeing that.

watersprite
November 30th, 2008, 10:41 PM
Chill out. No one is telling you how to live, what to say, etc (except maybe your parents!) and no one is forcing the Bible down your throat, especially on MW. I am sorry if it has happened to you elsewhere. I am saying the Bible tells Christians not to judge other people. I wish they would all read that chapter and adhere to it.

As for making fun of other people's beliefs, it's my understanding that sort of thing is frowned on around here so I'd be careful.
I am 52 years old. One parent has left us, One parent I care for 24/7. So that little snark isn't affecting me.
Yes, the bible DOES tell Christians not to judge each other, but they do it every single day. Enough to try and deny me my civil rights to Marry. So, I am not considered a person by these lovely folks. Not a slave, not anything. But I still have to pay my bills and my taxes and for the medicine and food that goes in my mouth.
Chill out? NEVER!

Phoenix Blue
December 1st, 2008, 01:59 AM
Personally I think what she said was spot on and quite appropriate, but thats just me. And you quoting the Bible at us is the typical bible thumping that I see all the time in real life and on the net.
You're in the Abrahamic Paths forum. Deal with it.

Caitlin.ann
December 1st, 2008, 02:04 AM
You're in the Abrahamic Paths forum. Deal with it.

Since you're not in Admin mode... after Elise said her peace did I in fact say anything about the scripture mentioned? No, I did not. Even after another member mentioned scripture I said nothing, so I would assume that I did indeed drop it and the above statement was unwarranted.

Phoenix Blue
December 1st, 2008, 03:15 AM
You're right. I apologize for being out of line.

Carri
December 1st, 2008, 04:13 AM
I was raised in a very conservative Christian household and I'll never forget how almost 30 years ago, when I was ten years old, my parents took me to this church where they were showing a film called "Left Behind" (not related to the popular Tim LaHaye novels of the same name). The film showed this young married woman, whose husband was a devout Christian, that chose not to practice her faith. In one scene, she comes home and finds her husband's electric razor running in the sink, as he'd be taken away but she, of course, had been "left behind" (proving the title wasn't just a clever name! :hehehehe:).

Now you have to imagine, I was a ten year old boy who, like any ten year old boy, got into a little mischief every now and again. To see this movie showing a God that, much like Santa Claus, is making a list and checking it twice as to whose been naughty and whose been nice, scared the living hell out of me. I used to come home from school worried that I'd discover I was "left behind" and that my parents would be gone, leaving me to fend for myself in an anti-christ ruled world. I remember one day I came home and found the door unlocked and nobody home, but the car still parked out front. Turns out my mother was next door visiting our neighbors, but in that short period I almost went into hysterics thinking I was soon going to have to do battle with the "Beast"! :bigredgri

OMG! This is the same film I saw 30ish years ago! I had the same experiences! And the cutting off of the heads! How could they have possibly thought this was acceptable viewing for a child????!! Scared the crap out of me!!

This was when I started being more curious about my Grandma who was Pennsylvania dutch and considered a "white witch" (other's words for her not mine). So it might be a logical conclusion that if it weren't for that film I may not have ever started on my seeking path that lead me here to this to this site to read what you wrote about that awful film. I'm sure that was the complete opposite of the original intentions of film makers. Funny how that works isn't it?

Thank you for posting about a film that I think has bothered me for too much of my life and for posting about your experiences that were so much like mine. Thank you for sharing Faunus, it was very validating.

Carri
December 1st, 2008, 04:23 AM
BTW when I made the above post I had not read any farther than Faunus's post that I quoted.

staticonthewire
December 1st, 2008, 05:24 AM
Originally Posted by staticonthewire http://mysticwicks.com/enlighten/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?p=3787093#post3787093)
The thing that keeps me awake at night, of course, is the possibility that we live in a cosmos in which both really ARE correct...


The possibility that either or both do not keep me awake at night - the fact that people believe that either or bother are correct has been known to give me the beginnings of an ulcer.

To live in the world that is, rather than the world of our dreams or the world we merely perceive, is the hardest of things...