Earliest reference describes Christ as 'magician'

[Skatha]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26972493/?GT1=43001

[Philosophia]

Earliest reference describes Christ as 'magician'

A team of scientists led by renowned French marine archaeologist Franck Goddio recently announced that they have found a bowl, dating to between the late 2nd century B.C. and the early 1st century A.D., that is engraved with what they believe could be the world's first known reference to Christ.

If the word "Christ" refers to the Biblical Jesus Christ, as is speculated, then the discovery may provide evidence that Christianity and paganism at times intertwined in the ancient world.

The full engraving on the bowl reads, "DIA CHRSTOU O GOISTAIS," which has been interpreted by the excavation team to mean either, "by Christ the magician" or, "the magician by Christ."

From here (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26972493/).

:hmmmmm: It would be interesting to find out if a Magus had used this bowl for scrying.

[TygerTyger]

I wonder if he did children's parties?
:giggle:

[Rudas Starblaze]

i thought it was common knowledge that christianity/jewish/hebrew and paganism had been intertwined for thousands of years. kinda hard for them not to really.

and as for christ being a "magician", well yeah! im mean its written all over the new testament cept they called em "miracles". :lol:

[Philosophia]

i thought it was common knowledge that christianity/jewish/hebrew and paganism had been intertwined for thousands of years. kinda hard for them not to really.

It is common knowledge but this is more evidence to prove it.

[Infinite Grey]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RkvI4jdciho

[Rudas Starblaze]

im quite fond of this one my self. :lol:

Dr Suess Bible (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=URosckS59Ro)

[David19]

Very cool discovery, and Jesus did have magical powers - raising the dead, exorcism, healing, walking on water, shapeshifting, being able to pass through walls, etc.

I'd love to learn more about this discovery.

[David19]

I wonder if he did children's parties?
:giggle:

If he did, it would be some impressive party, and no BS pulling a rabbit out of a hat, imagine turning kids into animals, getting the dead to rise up, etc.

[SSanf]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b83I55GDEyo

[Snapdragon]

I read this book a long time ago. One of the things I got from it was just how magical a view the common person had...so, what Jesus was about was perceived as being in line with the magical culture of the time:

Jesus the Magician
by Morton Smith
ISBN 0060674121 / 9780060674120 / 0-06-067412-1
Publisher Harper & Row
Language English
Edition Hardcover

[David19]

I read this book a long time ago. One of the things I got from it was just how magical a view the common person had...so, what Jesus was about was perceived as being in line with the magical culture of the time:

Jesus the Magician
by Morton Smith
ISBN 0060674121 / 9780060674120 / 0-06-067412-1
Publisher Harper & Row
Language English
Edition Hardcover

I've heard of that book, and that's definitely one I want to get. Also, even if you just read the Christian Bible, Jesus does, pretty much, seem like a sorcerer (not in a negative way, just in case anyone thinks I'm saying that), he does tell his followers that they will do greater miracles than even he has (which is saying something), and that his followers should go out and heal the sick, cast out demons, and raise the dead, etc.

[elessar]

To me Christ was a man that had a talent for healing people through herbs and potions. No magic talent or a divine father.

[Brightshores]

I wonder what the bowl was used for? Communion rituals, perhaps?

[David19]

To me Christ was a man that had a talent for healing people through herbs and potions. No magic talent or a divine father.

Potions involve magic.


I wonder what the bowl was used for? Communion rituals, perhaps?

It's interesting to think about.

[blithespirit]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5HMK-hEeiE

[Lunacie]

To me Christ was a man that had a talent for healing people through herbs and potions. No magic talent or a divine father.

And yet, the records in the bible say that he only had to touch them to heal them. In one case he simply touched a young man's coffin. In another case a woman simply touched the hem of his robe. I'm not seeing references to herbs and potions, just healing touch.

[David19]

And yet, the records in the bible say that he only had to touch them to heal them. In one case he simply touched a young man's coffin. In another case a woman simply touched the hem of his robe. I'm not seeing references to herbs and potions, just healing touch.

QFT :thumbsup:.

[Ben Gruagach]

im quite fond of this one my self. :lol:

Dr Suess Bible (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=URosckS59Ro)

Those Kids in the Hall guys were funny. It's also pretty funny that they had Scott Thompson play Jesus in that skit. Scott was the openly gay one.

[LittlePerson]

Thanks for sharing.

[elessar]

And yet, the records in the bible say that he only had to touch them to heal them. In one case he simply touched a young man's coffin. In another case a woman simply touched the hem of his robe. I'm not seeing references to herbs and potions, just healing touch.

The bible is not a historical book but a myth based one. It's all rumours told at the time the book was written, not fact. Don't forget the bible said the hebrews built the pyramids and now we know it's a lie.

[David19]

The bible is not a historical book but a myth based one. It's all rumours told at the time the book was written, not fact. Don't forget the bible said the hebrews built the pyramids and now we know it's a lie.

Could you provide evidence where it says the Hebrews "built the Pyramids", 'cause, that's just a lie, no Jew has ever said that (and 1/2 my family are Jewish, so I know).

Also, if you don't believe in magic, then, that's fine, you probably won't accept that Jesus had magical powers, but, if you do, like a lot of people on MW, it's not that much of a surprise.

[elessar]

Could you provide evidence where it says the Hebrews "built the Pyramids", 'cause, that's just a lie, no Jew has ever said that (and 1/2 my family are Jewish, so I know).

Also, if you don't believe in magic, then, that's fine, you probably won't accept that Jesus had magical powers, but, if you do, like a lot of people on MW, it's not that much of a surprise.

1-Wasn´t common knowledge until now that slaves built the pyramids, and according to the bible the only slaves in Egypt were the jews . If it's a lie , so why do we allways see in movies jews working as slaves in construction ?
Too bad the bible doesn't mention other parts of the jews history in Egypt. Has your family also mentioned how the jews arrived there ? How they were part of a invasion force ? How they left when egyptians regained power ? How there wasn't a massive jewish exodus like the bible says ? Do you know that even slaves in Egypt could obtain citizen status ?

2- I do believe in magic , for example i believe Imhotep the architect of the pyramid of Saqqara had mystical abilities but Jesus i don't know.

[David19]

1-Wasn´t common knowledge until now that slaves built the pyramids, and according to the bible the only slaves in Egypt were the jews . If it's a lie , so why do we allways see in movies jews working as slaves in construction ?
Too bad the bible doesn't mention other parts of the jews history in Egypt. Has your family also mentioned how the jews arrived there ? How they were part of a invasion force ? How they left when egyptians regained power ? How there wasn't a massive jewish exodus like the bible says ? Do you know that even slaves in Egypt could obtain citizen status ?

Yes, I know all that, also, provide the evidence the Jews were part of an "invasion force", if anything, they were mercernaries that were hired by the Egyptian rulers (watch a program called Biblical Battles, it was on the History Channel, and you can download it online, a military historian analyses the history of the ancient Jews, and comes up with some good conclusions).

Also, what movies do you always see Jews as slaves?, Biblical movies?, well, that's to be expected, but, it's funny, in The Mummy series of movies, I didn't see the Jews explicitly referred to as slaves.


2- I do believe in magic , for example i believe Imhotep the architect of the pyramid of Saqqara had mystical abilities but Jesus i don't know.

Why?, why couldn't they both have magical abilities?. Couldn't a Jew in Palestine/Judea have magical powers?.

[Xentor]

I wonder what the bowl was used for? Communion rituals, perhaps?
Drinking?


The bible is not a historical book but a myth based one. It's all rumours told at the time the book was written, not fact. Don't forget the bible said the hebrews built the pyramids and now we know it's a lie.
So... if you do not trust the bible to build a picture of who Jesus Christ was and what he was capable of, what source do you trust? Can you share that source with us?


1-Wasn´t common knowledge until now that slaves built the pyramids, and according to the bible the only slaves in Egypt were the jews . If it's a lie , so why do we allways see in movies jews working as slaves in construction ?
Do you really believe your stance increases in credibility by referring to movies? How does this connect to the abilities of Christ?


Too bad the bible doesn't mention other parts of the jews history in Egypt. Has your family also mentioned how the jews arrived there ? How they were part of a invasion force ? How they left when egyptians regained power ? How there wasn't a massive jewish exodus like the bible says ? Do you know that even slaves in Egypt could obtain citizen status ?
None of this seems to have any bearing on the abilities of Christ. How is it connected?


2- I do believe in magic , for example i believe Imhotep the architect of the pyramid of Saqqara had mystical abilities but Jesus i don't know.
Ah... you don't know. That's much better than 'has not'. At least it allows for a possibility and for research. What do Imhotep's abilities have to do with Christ's?

[Xentor]

Youtube movie in which Family Guy ridicules Jesus Christ


Youtube movie of the Kids in the Hall playing their skit 'The Dr.Seuss Bible'


Youtube movie in which a Jesus look-alike lip-syncs to 'I will survive' by Gloria Gainer and gets hit by a bus

What do any of these flicks have to do with the historical evidence presented? I didn't know Jesus Christ also had Internet Movie Searching powers...

[David19]

Drinking?


So... if you do not trust the bible to build a picture of who Jesus Christ was and what he was capable of, what source do you trust? Can you share that source with us?


Do you really believe your stance increases in credibility by referring to movies? How does this connect to the abilities of Christ?


None of this seems to have any bearing on the abilities of Christ. How is it connected?


Ah... you don't know. That's much better than 'has not'. At least it allows for a possibility and for research. What do Imhotep's abilities have to do with Christ's?

QFT :thumbsup:.

[David19]

What do any of these flicks have to do with the historical evidence presented? I didn't know Jesus Christ also had Internet Movie Searching powers...

Now, those powers are ones you don't hear about in the Bible!.

[Ben Gruagach]

What do any of these flicks have to do with the historical evidence presented? I didn't know Jesus Christ also had Internet Movie Searching powers...

Actually, they are particularly relevant. They show in a rather sarcastic and funny way how people can be fooled by simple stuff and how it can really snowball in how the stories are later told.

We still have people who do basic sleight-of-hand and things like cold reading and pass it off as genuine miracles. Uri Geller (the world-renowned "psychic"), people like many faith healers (ever watch those religious channels?), John Edwards and Sylvia Browne and their ilk, etc.

We humans have trouble telling fake and real magick when it's happening right in front of us -- it's even harder to tell the difference when the magick supposedly happened hundreds or thousands of years ago.

[Xentor]

Actually, they are particularly relevant. They show in a rather sarcastic and funny way how people can be fooled by simple stuff and how it can really snowball in how the stories are later told.

We still have people who do basic sleight-of-hand and things like cold reading and pass it off as genuine miracles. Uri Geller (the world-renowned "psychic"), people like many faith healers (ever watch those religious channels?), John Edwards and Sylvia Browne and their ilk, etc.

We humans have trouble telling fake and real magick when it's happening right in front of us -- it's even harder to tell the difference when the magick supposedly happened hundreds or thousands of years ago.

Ah, that makes sense. Thank you for explaining!

Now, just to hope the people posting those video links had a similar intent when they posted it...

[Ben Gruagach]

Ah, that makes sense. Thank you for explaining!

Now, just to hope the people posting those video links had a similar intent when they posted it...

Does it matter? If we can transform it into useful and on-topic discussion then it's all for the good.

[Darbla]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26972493/

"A bowl, dating to between the late 2nd century B.C. and the early 1st century A.D., is engraved with what may be the world's first known reference to Christ. The engraving reads, "DIA CHRSTOU O GOISTAIS," which has been interpreted to mean either, "by Christ the magician" or, "the magician by Christ."

[David19]

There's another thread in the History forum about this (http://mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=201940).

[Flaire-FireStar]

Thread Merge: Christ as a Magician threads from History, T&P, Current Events merged to 1 thread.

[elessar]

Drinking?


So... if you do not trust the bible to build a picture of who Jesus Christ was and what he was capable of, what source do you trust? Can you share that source with us?


Do you really believe your stance increases in credibility by referring to movies? How does this connect to the abilities of Christ?


None of this seems to have any bearing on the abilities of Christ. How is it connected?


Ah... you don't know. That's much better than 'has not'. At least it allows for a possibility and for research. What do Imhotep's abilities have to do with Christ's?

When i mentioned the role of Jews in Egypt i was referring the Bible that Lunacie mentions as a factual book didn't talked about how life was really in Egypt only some parts of their life there and not the hole picture. And besides he brought the Bible to this thread and not me.

This is a very confusing subject. First if the bowl was made by Christ why would he sign it Christ the Magician ? Was he in Egypt doing magic and this bowl was lost ?Unless he was selling "magic" items to people. I actually believe that Bert Smith is right and that it isn't Christ that's mentioned but a member of a cult named Chrestos.

[David19]

When i mentioned the role of Jews in Egypt i was referring the Bible that Lunacie mentions as a factual book didn't talked about how life was really in Egypt only some parts of their life there and not the hole picture. And besides he brought the Bible to this thread and not me.

This is a very confusing subject. First if the bowl was made by Christ why would he sign it Christ the Magician ? Was he in Egypt doing magic and this bowl was lost ?Unless he was selling "magic" items to people. I actually believe that Bert Smith is right and that it isn't Christ that's mentioned but a member of a cult named Chrestos.

Lunacie is a she, not a he. Also, even if this bowl wasn't made by Jesus, why couldn't an early Christian have been using it, they did practice magic, afterall.

[Lunacie]

Thanks for clearing that up David.

I don't recall any stories in the Christian bible about Jesus traveling to Egypt but it seems quite possible that the bowl might have found it's way there after his death, eh? At least as possible as the bowl belonging to some group who honored Jesus.

[David19]

Thanks for clearing that up David.

No problem :).


I don't recall any stories in the Christian bible about Jesus traveling to Egypt but it seems quite possible that the bowl might have found it's way there after his death, eh? At least as possible as the bowl belonging to some group who honored Jesus.

It might have been taken by his Disciples, or some early Christian who travelled to Egypt, afterall, the distance between Palestine/Israel and Egypt isn't that far.

It's also likely the bowl could have simply belonged to a group who did worship Jesus.

[elessar]

We don't have reports of his disciples going to Egypt so at this point this is just theories. All valid including mine.


When you really want to believe in one thing there's nothing anybody could say to change you're mind.

[Lunacie]

When i mentioned the role of Jews in Egypt i was referring the Bible that Lunacie mentions as a factual book didn't talked about how life was really in Egypt only some parts of their life there and not the hole picture. And besides he brought the Bible to this thread and not me.

This is a very confusing subject. First if the bowl was made by Christ why would he sign it Christ the Magician ? Was he in Egypt doing magic and this bowl was lost ?Unless he was selling "magic" items to people. I actually believe that Bert Smith is right and that it isn't Christ that's mentioned but a member of a cult named Chrestos.

Now how did I miss that blatant misrepresentation?

I didn't say, nor imply, that I believe the Christian bible is a factual book. Actually I'd say my belief is more that it is a collection of stories and myths.

[David19]

We don't have reports of his disciples going to Egypt so at this point this is just theories. All valid including mine.


When you really want to believe in one thing there's nothing anybody could say to change you're mind.

Actually, considering ancient Egypt had quite a large population of Christians, especially in Alexandria (the Jewish Philosopher Philo of Alexandria seems to have had a big impact on the development of Christianity), it's quite likely some of Jesus's followers went to Egypt.

BTW, what theory are you suggesting again?, that a Jewish Palestinian can't possess magical powers :2G:.


Now how did I miss that blatant misrepresentation?

I didn't say, nor imply, that I believe the Christian bible is a factual book. Actually I'd say my belief is more that it is a collection of stories and myths.

QFT, although, I don't see anything wrong with Myths (but, then I don't see Myths as meaning "false" tales or something that's "not true").

[elessar]

[QUOTE=David19;3726570]Actually, considering ancient Egypt had quite a large population of Christians, especially in Alexandria (the Jewish Philosopher Philo of Alexandria seems to have had a big impact on the development of Christianity), it's quite likely some of Jesus's followers went to Egypt.

BTW, what theory are you suggesting again?, that a Jewish Palestinian can't possess magical powers :2G:.




Now you're calling me racist. That i won't allow that from no one. Instead of talking about ideas you , Lunacie and Xentor have been attacking ideas and personal beliefs . Accordind to you 3 i can't have ideas only follow what you want. I never said Jewish or Palestinians couldn't be wizards, witches or magicians i just don't think Christ had mystical habilities, and that article had several theories about that bowl.
This is a forum of freedom of speech and of ideas and not follow the leader.

[Ben Gruagach]

Now you're calling me racist. That i won't allow that from no one. Instead of talking about ideas you , Lunacie and Xentor have been attacking ideas and personal beliefs . Accordind to you 3 i can't have ideas only follow what you want. I never said Jewish or Palestinians couldn't be wizards, witches or magicians i just don't think Christ had mystical habilities, and that article had several theories about that bowl.
This is a forum of freedom of speech and of ideas and not follow the leader.

Umm... challenging ideas and personal beliefs is what discussion is about. No one called you personally a racist.

With all the miracles attributed to Jesus why does it not make sense to you that Jesus might have had mystical (magickal) abilities? Here's a chance for you to explain your ideas and personal beliefs and what supporting evidence you have for them.

[elessar]

Umm... challenging ideas and personal beliefs is what discussion is about. No one called you personally a racist.

With all the miracles attributed to Jesus why does it not make sense to you that Jesus might have had mystical (magickal) abilities? Here's a chance for you to explain your ideas and personal beliefs and what supporting evidence you have for them.

The reason i say David called me a racist was because he said i didn't believe a Jewish Palestinian could have magical powers. He could have asked why i didn't believe Christ had powers. He pulled the race card instead.

From what i read Bilbe aside, Christ was a man who fought against the Roman ocupation of Judea/Israel. He wanted his people to rule themselves but that clashed with the direction the rabis wanted for Israel. That i saw in a documentary on the History Channel. That's fact. His powers are mentioned specially in the bible, but always left me wonder: If Christ was a magician who taught him to be one ?, If he was born a magician why is it that we don't have reports of him using his powers when he was child or a teenager ?

I've always heard the story of an adult Christ healing people but i never knew the real backround. Christ's life was always based on stories told at the time. The Bible said Mary Magdalene was a prostitute Christ tried to "save", but now we have discovered documents saying she was Christ's wife and they had children together , another fact the bible denies.Even the story of Judas has another side to it.
This is why i tend to see the bible has more myth than truth. It's the writters version and sometimes not the truth.

Let me say thanks to you . You tried to know more about my ideas and not attack me for them

[Lunacie]

Now you're calling me racist. That i won't allow that from no one. Instead of talking about ideas you , Lunacie and Xentor have been attacking ideas and personal beliefs . Accordind to you 3 i can't have ideas only follow what you want. I never said Jewish or Palestinians couldn't be wizards, witches or magicians i just don't think Christ had mystical habilities, and that article had several theories about that bowl.
This is a forum of freedom of speech and of ideas and not follow the leader.

I'm sorry you see my post as an attack. You wrote that you believe Jesus worked his healings through herbs and such. I replied that I have not seen any references to Jesus doing healing any way but through touch. If you have read something different please share that, I certainly don't claim to know everything.

I know some healers who like the word 'mystic' but ir's not a word I usually claim for myself. I have been doing healing touch therapy for 19 years, and I think it's a normal human ability.

Just as your ideas and opinions may be posted freely here, they may be challenged - just as mine and anyone's may be. What is forbidden are personal attacks and David did not call you a racist, he asked you to clarify your theory. If you think someone has attacked you, the site owner wants you to use the report button in the top right corner of each post rather than getting involved in a "board war".

[David19]

Now you're calling me racist. That i won't allow that from no one. Instead of talking about ideas you , Lunacie and Xentor have been attacking ideas and personal beliefs . Accordind to you 3 i can't have ideas only follow what you want. I never said Jewish or Palestinians couldn't be wizards, witches or magicians i just don't think Christ had mystical habilities, and that article had several theories about that bowl.
This is a forum of freedom of speech and of ideas and not follow the leader.


Umm... challenging ideas and personal beliefs is what discussion is about. No one called you personally a racist.

With all the miracles attributed to Jesus why does it not make sense to you that Jesus might have had mystical (magickal) abilities? Here's a chance for you to explain your ideas and personal beliefs and what supporting evidence you have for them.


The reason i say David called me a racist was because he said i didn't believe a Jewish Palestinian could have magical powers. He could have asked why i didn't believe Christ had powers. He pulled the race card instead.

From what i read Bilbe aside, Christ was a man who fought against the Roman ocupation of Judea/Israel. He wanted his people to rule themselves but that clashed with the direction the rabis wanted for Israel. That i saw in a documentary on the History Channel. That's fact. His powers are mentioned specially in the bible, but always left me wonder: If Christ was a magician who taught him to be one ?, If he was born a magician why is it that we don't have reports of him using his powers when he was child or a teenager ?

I've always heard the story of an adult Christ healing people but i never knew the real backround. Christ's life was always based on stories told at the time. The Bible said Mary Magdalene was a prostitute Christ tried to "save", but now we have discovered documents saying she was Christ's wife and they had children together , another fact the bible denies.Even the story of Judas has another side to it.
This is why i tend to see the bible has more myth than truth. It's the writters version and sometimes not the truth.

Let me say thanks to you . You tried to know more about my ideas and not attack me for them


I'm sorry you see my post as an attack. You wrote that you believe Jesus worked his healings through herbs and such. I replied that I have not seen any references to Jesus doing healing any way but through touch. If you have read something different please share that, I certainly don't claim to know everything.

I know some healers who like the word 'mystic' but ir's not a word I usually claim for myself. I have been doing healing touch therapy for 19 years, and I think it's a normal human ability.

Just as your ideas and opinions may be posted freely here, they may be challenged - just as mine and anyone's may be. What is forbidden are personal attacks and David did not call you a racist, he asked you to clarify your theory. If you think someone has attacked you, the site owner wants you to use the report button in the top right corner of each post rather than getting involved in a "board war".

Sorry if you thought I was calling you a racist, 'cause I wasn't, if you noticed when I also included this icon - :2G:, it should have been a clue, it was more tougue-and-cheek, but, like Ben and Lunacie said, you said you didn't believe Jesus had mystical/magical powers, despite the powers associated with him, and I, and others, wanted to know why. Also, there's evidence Mary Magdalene had a prominent role in early Christianity, but, aside from the DaVinci Code, there is no evidence they were married and had kids, maybe she and Jesus had some kind of relationship, or maybe she was just a disciple of his (I know one of the Gnostic Gospels says Jesus kissed her, but, according to some, that doesn't necessarily mean she and Jesus were together, a kiss was also seen as a way of passing on mystical knowledge). Also, apparantly, in the Infancy Gospel of Thomas, it's about Jesus's childhood, and he did have magical powers then (apparantly, he killed people, turned other kids, and, maybe, others into animals, etc). Also, I think, in the Bible, wasn't Jesus able to know more than his teachers, which is pretty much a magical power.

Like I said, sorry if you thought I was calling you a racist, I wasn't, but, I would like to know, why you don't think Jesus didn't have magical powers.

[LacyRoze]

The Bible said Mary Magdalene was a prostitute Christ tried to "save", but now we have discovered documents saying she was Christ's wife and they had children together , another fact the bible denies.

Please quote the scripture that says Mary Magdalene was a prostitute and please provide a link to documents that say she was the wife of Jesus.

[elessar]

Please read this link and tell me what you think:
http://www.thenazareneway.com/the_gospel_of_mary_magdalene.htm

The fact that Mary is considered above all women may lead to a more intimate relationship with Christ.

[elessar]

Please quote the scripture that says Mary Magdalene was a prostitute and please provide a link to documents that say she was the wife of Jesus.

The church refers to her many times as a prostitute or a sinfull woman.

[Lunacie]

The church refers to her many times as a prostitute or a sinfull woman.

That is not saying which scriptures refer to her that way. I did aa search using Bible Gateway Online... http://www.biblegateway.com/keyword/?search=Mary%20Magdalene&version1=31&searchtype=all

These are the only references to Mary Magdalene by name:




(http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=27&verse=56&version=31&context=verse)Matthew 27:56 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=27&verse=56&version=31&context=verse)
Among them were Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James and Joses, and the mother of Zebedee's sons.
(http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=27&verse=56&version=31&context=verse)Matthew 27:55-57 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=27&verse=55&end_verse=57&version=31&context=context) (in Context) (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=27&verse=56&version=31&context=verse)Matthew 27 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=27&version=31&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)
(http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=27&verse=56&version=31&context=verse)Matthew 27:61 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=27&verse=61&version=31&context=verse)
Mary Magdalene and the other Mary were sitting there opposite the tomb.
(http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=27&verse=56&version=31&context=verse)Matthew 27:60-62 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=27&verse=60&end_verse=62&version=31&context=context) (in Context) (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=27&verse=56&version=31&context=verse)Matthew 27 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=27&version=31&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)
(http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=27&verse=56&version=31&context=verse)Matthew 28:1 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=28&verse=1&version=31&context=verse)
[ The Resurrection ] After the Sabbath, at dawn on the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to look at the tomb.
(http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=27&verse=56&version=31&context=verse)Matthew 28:1-3 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=28&verse=1&end_verse=3&version=31&context=context) (in Context) (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=27&verse=56&version=31&context=verse)Matthew 28 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=28&version=31&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)
(http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=27&verse=56&version=31&context=verse)Mark 15:40 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=48&chapter=15&verse=40&version=31&context=verse)
Some women were watching from a distance. Among them were Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James the younger and of Joses, and Salome.
(http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=27&verse=56&version=31&context=verse)Mark 15:39-41 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=48&chapter=15&verse=39&end_verse=41&version=31&context=context) (in Context) (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=27&verse=56&version=31&context=verse)Mark 15 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=48&chapter=15&version=31&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)
(http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=27&verse=56&version=31&context=verse)Mark 15:47 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=48&chapter=15&verse=47&version=31&context=verse)
Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of Joses saw where he was laid.
(http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=27&verse=56&version=31&context=verse)Mark 15:46-47 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=48&chapter=15&verse=46&end_verse=47&version=31&context=context) (in Context) (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=27&verse=56&version=31&context=verse)Mark 15 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=48&chapter=15&version=31&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)
(http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=27&verse=56&version=31&context=verse)Mark 16:1 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=48&chapter=16&verse=1&version=31&context=verse)
[ The Resurrection ] When the Sabbath was over, Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, and Salome bought spices so that they might go to anoint Jesus' body.
(http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=27&verse=56&version=31&context=verse)Mark 16:1-3 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=48&chapter=16&verse=1&end_verse=3&version=31&context=context) (in Context) (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=27&verse=56&version=31&context=verse)Mark 16 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=48&chapter=16&version=31&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)
(http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=27&verse=56&version=31&context=verse)Mark 16:9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=48&chapter=16&verse=9&version=31&context=verse)
[ ((The most reliable early manuscripts and other ancient witnesses do not have Mark 16:9-20.)) ] When Jesus rose early on the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had driven seven demons.
(http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=27&verse=56&version=31&context=verse)Mark 16:8-10 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=48&chapter=16&verse=8&end_verse=10&version=31&context=context) (in Context) (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=27&verse=56&version=31&context=verse)Mark 16 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=48&chapter=16&version=31&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)
(http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=27&verse=56&version=31&context=verse)Luke 8:2 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=49&chapter=8&verse=2&version=31&context=verse)
and also some women who had been cured of evil spirits and diseases: Mary (called Magdalene) from whom seven demons had come out;
(http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=27&verse=56&version=31&context=verse)Luke 8:1-3 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=49&chapter=8&verse=1&end_verse=3&version=31&context=context) (in Context) (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=27&verse=56&version=31&context=verse)Luke 8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=49&chapter=8&version=31&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)
(http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=27&verse=56&version=31&context=verse)Luke 24:10 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=49&chapter=24&verse=10&version=31&context=verse)
It was Mary Magdalene, Joanna, Mary the mother of James, and the others with them who told this to the apostles.
(http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=27&verse=56&version=31&context=verse)Luke 24:9-11 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=49&chapter=24&verse=9&end_verse=11&version=31&context=context) (in Context) (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=27&verse=56&version=31&context=verse)Luke 24 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=49&chapter=24&version=31&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)
(http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=27&verse=56&version=31&context=verse)John 19:25 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=19&verse=25&version=31&context=verse)
Near the cross of Jesus stood his mother, his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene.
(http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=27&verse=56&version=31&context=verse)John 19:24-26 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=19&verse=24&end_verse=26&version=31&context=context) (in Context) (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=27&verse=56&version=31&context=verse)John 19 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=19&version=31&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)
(http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=27&verse=56&version=31&context=verse)John 20:1 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=20&verse=1&version=31&context=verse)
[ The Empty Tomb ] Early on the first day of the week, while it was still dark, Mary Magdalene went to the tomb and saw that the stone had been removed from the entrance.
(http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=27&verse=56&version=31&context=verse)John 20:1-3 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=20&verse=1&end_verse=3&version=31&context=context) (in Context) (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=27&verse=56&version=31&context=verse)John 20 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=20&version=31&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)
(http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=27&verse=56&version=31&context=verse)John 20:10 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=20&verse=10&version=31&context=verse)
[ Jesus Appears to Mary Magdalene ] Then the disciples went back to their homes,
(http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=27&verse=56&version=31&context=verse)John 20:9-11 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=20&verse=9&end_verse=11&version=31&context=context) (in Context) (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=27&verse=56&version=31&context=verse)John 20 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=20&version=31&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)
(http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=27&verse=56&version=31&context=verse)John 20:18 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=20&verse=18&version=31&context=verse)
Mary Magdalene went to the disciples with the news: "I have seen the Lord!" And she told them that he had said these things to her.
(http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=27&verse=56&version=31&context=verse)John 20:17-19 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=20&verse=17&end_verse=19&version=31&context=context) (in Context) (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=27&verse=56&version=31&context=verse)John 20 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=20&version=31&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)

[LacyRoze]

The church refers to her many times as a prostitute or a sinfull woman.

The "church" refers to her as such but no where in the bible does it say she was a prostitute.

[LacyRoze]

Please read this link and tell me what you think:
http://www.thenazareneway.com/the_gospel_of_mary_magdalene.htm

The fact that Mary is considered above all women may lead to a more intimate relationship with Christ.

I've read the Gospel of Mary and yes, she may have had a more intimate relationship with Jesus however this does not prove they were married.

[David19]

Please read this link and tell me what you think:
http://www.thenazareneway.com/the_gospel_of_mary_magdalene.htm

The fact that Mary is considered above all women may lead to a more intimate relationship with Christ.

Thanks for the link, and I'll read it more tomorrow, but, while it's probably very likely Mary Magdalene did have some kind of special relationship with Jesus, there's no evidence it was sexual, or a marriage, or anything like that. There's also some evidence Jesus may have engaged in homoerotic activities (in the Secret Gospel of Mark, apparantly, Jesus initiated a young man into his mysteries, and showed him what the Kingdom of God was like, but, it was done nude, and, I think, it says they spent the night together).

[David19]

i've read the gospel of mary and yes, she may have had a more intimate relationship with jesus however this does not prove they were married.

qft.

[elessar]

Thanks for the link, and I'll read it more tomorrow, but, while it's probably very likely Mary Magdalene did have some kind of special relationship with Jesus, there's no evidence it was sexual, or a marriage, or anything like that. There's also some evidence Jesus may have engaged in homoerotic activities (in the Secret Gospel of Mark, apparantly, Jesus initiated a young man into his mysteries, and showed him what the Kingdom of God was like, but, it was done nude, and, I think, it says they spent the night together).

Never say that to a Catholic, he'll freak. Jesus being bissexual would kill the Churches movement against gays. The problem is that for 2000 years Jesus as been described like he was a eunuch. Of course Christ like any man, had sexual relations with women or men. It's quite normal, but for Christians that is a blasphemy.

[Ben Gruagach]

There is an interesting article discussing the possible sexual partners of Jesus at http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_jegay.htm

[LacyRoze]

[/color]
It's quite normal, but for Christians that is a blasphemy.

For some Christians, not for all. Just saying...

[David19]

[/COLOR]

Never say that to a Catholic, he'll freak. Jesus being bissexual would kill the Churches movement against gays. The problem is that for 2000 years Jesus as been described like he was a eunuch. Of course Christ like any man, had sexual relations with women or men. It's quite normal, but for Christians that is a blasphemy.

How do you know Jesus wasn't fully gay?, I mean, we don't have any accounts of Jesus spending the night with women.


There is an interesting article discussing the possible sexual partners of Jesus at http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_jegay.htm

Thanks for that interesting link :).


For some Christians, not for all. Just saying...

Very true :thumbsup:.

[elessar]

]How do you know Jesus wasn't fully gay?, I mean, we don't have any accounts of Jesus spending the night with women.[/COLOR]



Thanks for that interesting link :).



Very true :thumbsup:.

There are so many things we don't know about Christ., that the possibility of Christ being gay should be considered.

[CinnamonFaerie]

Thanks for clearing that up David.

I don't recall any stories in the Christian bible about Jesus traveling to Egypt but it seems quite possible that the bowl might have found it's way there after his death, eh? At least as possible as the bowl belonging to some group who honored Jesus.


The gospel of Matthew accounts Joseph being told by an angel of God that he is to flee Bethlehem with his wife and baby Jesus and escape into Egypt and stay there until he is told it is safe to leave and head home to Nazareth, presumably years later after Herod dies.

At the same time, how is it any different really from folks who claim that Jesus travelled to India and beyond during the "silent years" of his growing up time and supposedly learned magic from the mystics there?

[CinnamonFaerie]

I've read the Gospel of Mary and yes, she may have had a more intimate relationship with Jesus however this does not prove they were married.


What about the idea people have that Jesus would have stuck out like a sore thumb if he wasn't married? Supposedly during that time, a man of his age in his culture, regardless of his chosen career path, would have been married by the time that he started his ministry, otherwise he would have been considered a freak and an outcast and no one would have wanted anything to do with him. Yet he is said to have a huge (in the thousands and beyond, not counting any women or children) following of believers during the time that he was alive.

[Lunacie]

The gospel of Matthew accounts Joseph being told by an angel of God that he is to flee Bethlehem with his wife and baby Jesus and escape into Egypt and stay there until he is told it is safe to leave and head home to Nazareth, presumably years later after Herod dies.

At the same time, how is it any different really from folks who claim that Jesus travelled to India and beyond during the "silent years" of his growing up time and supposedly learned magic from the mystics there?

Ah yes, I remember it now. Been a few years since I studied the bible.

Why does it seem you're arguing with my post when I said basically the same thing? That I think it's just as likely that Jesus travelled about and was well enough known for his "miracles" that someone might have gifted him with a bowl calling him "Christ the magician". Historical reports from yesterday aren't always accurate or reliable, sadly they become even less so when centuries have passed.

[CinnamonFaerie]

I agree completely. It's like playing telephone or telling a fish story to see how extravagant the tale can get. Before you know it, there is no ounce of fact left if there ever was to begin with. But those who do know what was going on at the time can't zoom into the present and tell you. Anything is possible but without actual evidence, there is no way of knowing for certain one way or another. Speculation only goes so far.

[David19]

What about the idea people have that Jesus would have stuck out like a sore thumb if he wasn't married? Supposedly during that time, a man of his age in his culture, regardless of his chosen career path, would have been married by the time that he started his ministry, otherwise he would have been considered a freak and an outcast and no one would have wanted anything to do with him. Yet he is said to have a huge (in the thousands and beyond, not counting any women or children) following of believers during the time that he was alive.

I've heard that, not everyone at that time, was married, so while being in a hetrosexual marriage may have been common, it didn't mean everyone adhered to it, and not just "outcasts" either.

[kotu]

I wonder if he did children's parties?
:giggle:

actually irrelevent but now that you mention it its nagging me