Secret Soceities.......

[The Crone]

Question or thought...or whatever....

What are your feelings on Secret Soceities....like Some Native Americans have them...let's see the Ute have the Sun Soceities you give you life to learning the Sun ...

The Odd Fellows.....the Masons.....not sure what either of these do..

I believe the Jew's have one and the Kinght of Columbus not sure the Knights is secret...

The Rainbow Girls...lets see we dressed up lite candles and said certain prayers...

PEO....some Covens are secret

Anyhow you get my drift.....do you think these SECRET groups are needed? if so why....

Discuss among yourselves~~~~

[Psyche Ague]

I think being a part of something exclusive makes you feel special, wanted, important. I think that's why we often find fulfillment in an exclusive, meaningful relationship: we feel those ways.

[Willow_Raindancer]

Have you seen the movie The Skulls?
It's based on a real secret society called The Bones & Skulls
OUR president was a member of this "society"!
Several US presidents have been!
After Bushs' election, he placed several of his brother "Bonesmen" in
prominant possitions! There's a book out, I'm not sure the name of it.
When I find it, I plan on reading it. The Bones have been linked
with some not so nice things too!:smoke:

I personally am a member of a secret society!
I'm the only member..................
Do you think I'd trust anyone else? ROFL!
:rotfl:

[Faery-Wings]

I saw that History Channel- they had a whole show on secret societies. And they talked about the Bonesmen, which both George Bush's belong to.

I don't know enough about it to make an intelligent comment, but it sure is interesting. And I would love to learn more about it.

[FlamedLilly]

I think that sometimes secret societies are needed to keep focus in the group. So the thought process doesn't get "contaminated" so to speak.

[Garnet]

That 'Bones' club is a college group, at one of the Ivy League eastern colleges. I saw it on a cable show once (probably the same one you saw)
I'm Jewish, & we don't have a secret society on the order of the Masons, with secret passwords & rituals, etc. Maybe you're thinking of one of the umpteen Hasidic groups, with their old-fashioned clothes & use of Yiddish.
I don't know that Knights of Columbus is a secret society, either. I bought health insurance from them years ago. I think it was started in response to Masonic groups, which Catholics were forbidden to join.
I think some organizations need secrecy (like covens) because they tend to be outside the mainstream of society & members face a lot of b.s. for belonging. On the whole, however, the secret handshakes & passwords & 'Oh don't let anyone know our secret code' stuff seems...well, a tad juvenile, akin to a bunch of little boys trying to keep little girls out of the treehouse.

[Azure]

Most "secret societies" like Yale's Skull and Bones pretty much function the same way fraternities and such do - it's not much of surprise that politicians reward their friends. . . Go figure. Bush also rewarded plenty of his business cronies, that's how it works.

I think any secret society that is worth worrying about is one that we don't hear about all the time.

Most organizations like the Masons, the Oddfellows, the Lions, etc are basically charitable organizations and service fraternities at this point.

Rainbow Girls is the girls version of De Molay, the young men's Masonic group.

I always was suspicious about the Stonecutters, I mean, it takes a Simpson's episode to alert us to that danger!!!

[Kaylara]

I'm reading a book on this subject right now called "A History of Secret Societies" by Arkon DaRaul, which was published in 1961. It's pretty biased from what I can tell...

Kaylara

[Journeyman]

Garnet, "we Jews" did indeed have our very own Secret Society/Fraternal Order.
That's how the B'nai Brith (Sons of the Covenant) started out - as a Jewish version of Freemasonry. Gradually it devolved into the self-congratulatory, non-mystical, flatulent group that it is today.
:D


93,
jm

[Xander67]

Well, I dont see anything wrong with so-called "secret societies"
although I would not call Masonic organizations such as Masons, Eastern star, Demolay, Ranbow girls etc....secret societies as by definition a secret society is just that ....SECRET... and a secret society tends to be very secretive about thier activities and even thier existance...

masonic organizations are open to anyone who desires knowledge...and thier activities are very public.... sure they have rituals and things that are kept within the organization.... but I think if we take a look at anything in life, there is a certain degree of the unknown.....


I feel that secrets are what makes life adventurous and exciting...

what is the point in reading a book if we already know whats in it?

I like what was written in Dante's Inferno.....
something about when you can see the road before you the journey isnt as exiting.

just a few of my thoughts :)

[Willow_Raindancer]

I just want to know how some of you who think secret societys are OK, think about them in politics? Do you really want some secret society with their own UNKNOWN agenda running the USA?
It's bad enough the Democrats and Republicans hide things!
Do we really need anymore secrets?
If a group stays out of politics, I say "OK great for you and your right to privacy!"
When I comes to me and my family being CONTOLLED by these such people, I have to say "Wait just a minute!"
Do you really want to wake up and find out someone YOU elected is having a secret society dictating things to them?
What if it where the Taliban?:smoke:
Hmmm......................
Makes you wonder:eyebrow:

[Raevyn]

Anyhow you get my drift.....do you think these SECRET groups are needed? if so why...

Well since the people in the societies themselves think so for their own reasons I'd say so. It might be hard to imagine why if you've never been a part of one but there's a reason for it. I know there are reasons why I don't go around talking about my religious beliefs or associations.


Do you really want some secret society with their own UNKNOWN agenda running the USA?

Suppose the government says "gee you can't be Pagan, I don't know what Paganism is or if it's mind control so no Pagans allowed". How fair is that? Why is it ok to impose religious beliefs on the government because of your fear when we all know we have a fit if it happens to us? What about separation of church and state? Since when is it ok to judge other people's religion? Frankly this attitude shocks me, thinking like that is why so many Pagans and heck people of other races etc. still face discrimination.

Last time I checked the government isn't a secret society. It's up to you to choose the government by their stance on the issues and what they can do for our country. In your example, certain stances someone controlled by the Taliban would take would probably not be appreciated by several voters and thus they wouldn't vote for that candidate.

[paygun]

I'm not worried about secret societies. There is no conspiracy, the agenda is there for anyone to see if they care to look.

Now if you'll excuse me, I think I've found a leak in my tin foil hat!

[paygun]

Raevyn said:
"certain stances someone controlled by the Taliban would take would probably not be appreciated by several voters and thus they wouldn't vote for that candidate."

Er, they wouldn't vote for them *again*. There's a lot of "suicide" legislation here in the states by politicians that know they won't get re-elected, but sponsor and push legislation that promotes the party line.

Ugh, I'm talking about politics now. Count me out.

[Raevyn]

Originally posted by paygun
I'm not worried about secret societies. There is no conspiracy, the agenda is there for anyone to see if they care to look.
Two things - first; exactly.

second; haha I made you talk politics.

[Raevyn]

oh third, as to current government, I don't even think it's applicable. I think we can all admit the wrong guy's charge and it isn't going to happen again, regardless of his religious affiliation.

[Phoenix Blue]

In Article VI, the Constitution states, no religious test will be required as qualification to hold government office. Like it or not, Presidents and Senators and anyone else can be members of "secret societies." To forbid this could be construed as applying a religious test, which violates Article VI.

[The Crone]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Garnet
I'm Jewish, & we don't have a secret society on the order of the Masons, with secret passwords & rituals, etc. Maybe you're thinking of one of the umpteen Hasidic groups, with their old-fashioned clothes & use of Yiddish.


Garnet the secret society in the Jewish belief is called Kabbalism or close.....only found very little on it but it sounded COOL! Have you heard of it?


I be a thinking there are loads of secret societies no one even knows of..... been thinking some on this....and it's like life...if you get a payoff from being a part of it then it is worth it to yourself to be in it.

[Journeyman]

Originally posted by Raevyn
[...] I think we can all admit the wrong guy's charge [...]

All of us? Really?

[Journeyman]

Speaking of Secret Societies, let's not forget how much America owes to Freemasonry.
Not only did the general philosophy of brotherhood within Freemasonry allow for the philosophical underpinnings of that great document called the Constitution, but before and during teh Revolutionary War, the Colonists were organized in small cells, each with limited knowledge of what other cells were doing, so that they couldn't be made to betray the others. Much of this organizing was done within Masonic Lodges, as so many of the Founding Fathers and other figures of the Revoution were Masons.

Not so nefarious, eh?

bb,
jm

[Willow_Raindancer]

First I'd like to say,
There's a BIG difference between the Mason's and the Bones!
Second,
I still think if it's not such a bad thing, why didn't the President
(all presidents) advertise the fact he/they were in it? BEFORE the election?
Or even say their Masons?
I think that's something every voter has a right to know.

Ask yourself,
Would you want your President to be a gang member?
What's really the difference, if you don't know what these societies are about?

I want a chance to vote, but I want to know to whom I'm voting for!
I want to be as informed as much as possible about that person.
I don't think that's too much to ask.

Everyone else can close their eyes and pick, but not me;)

[Phoenix Blue]

Quoth Journeyman:
All of us? Really?
Indeed - I can think of at least five people who would disagree. Shame that their opinions mattered more than the 12 million or so people who're eligible to vote in the state of Florida, though.

[Phoenix Blue]

Also, Willow - do people not have the right to a private life just because they're campaigning for public office?

[Willow_Raindancer]

Originally posted by Phoenix_Blue
Also, Willow - do people not have the right to a private life just because they're campaigning for public office?

A politician's home life has NOTHING to do with a secret society that has political agendas!
What a politician does at home is NONE of my buisness!
How he/she runs our country IS my buisness!;)

[Phoenix Blue]

How a politician executes her public office is a completely different issue from any memberships she may have. It is enough to judge a politician based upon what she does, without insisting to know the groups with which she carries membership.

In other words, if you don't like the job someone's doing as a politician, you're not going to like it whether she's a member of a secret society or not. If you do like the job someone's doing, you're going to like it whether she's a member of a secret society or not. Either way, the politician's membership in the society is completely irrelevant.

[Journeyman]

There were those who felt that John F. Kennedy couldn't possibly be a good President because he was a member of the Catholic Church.

There were also those who felt that Jews should not hold public office because they would all have "dual loyalties" to America and to Israel.

There are those who would not elect me President of the PTA because I am Pagan.

I don't think that we should be like them.

bb/93,
jm

[Raevyn]

Originally posted by The Crone
Garnet the secret society in the Jewish belief is called Kabbalism or close.....only found very little on it but it sounded COOL! Have you heard of it?

Kabbalah isn't a "secret society".

Willow - when you take a job do you think you should be chosen based on what religion you follow? What if you were told you couldn't work somewhere because you're Pagan? I can't believe you don't see how ridiculous that would be.

I agree wholeheartedly with jm and PB.

[Willow_Raindancer]

Originally posted by Raevyn
Kabbalah isn't a "secret society".

Willow - when you take a job do you think you should be chosen based on what religion you follow? What if you were told you couldn't work somewhere because you're Pagan? I can't believe you don't see how ridiculous that would be.

I agree wholeheartedly with jm and PB.

I was unaware that ALL secret societies fall in the catagory of religions. I agree some "could" be construed as such.
I also was unaware ALL Pagan groups are secret societies.
I also concede that some Pagan groups "could"
be thought of as a secret society!

I'm NOT refering to religion but politics.
This debate is better suited for the Political Pagan Forum.;)

[Raevyn]

Originally posted by Willow_Raindancer
I was unaware that ALL secret societies fall in the catagory of religions. I agree some "could" be construed as such.
I also was unaware ALL Pagan groups are secret societies.
I also concede that some Pagan groups "could"
be thought of as a secret society!

So was I, apparently, because I don't recall saying "ALL secret societies are religions", "ALL Pagan groups are secret societies", etc. However, I do remember saying some people might consider Paganism a "secret society" and thus the same rule might apply to you were you to apply for a position.

Whether "ALL secret societies" are anything or "ALL Pagan groups" are anything doesn't seem to have any bearing on this at all (imho).

I'll agree with you about this being more pertinent to PP though.

[Garnet]

The Kabbalah is a work of ancient mysticism/wisdom, which had fallen into disfavor as 'old-fasioned' & harking back to Orthodox roots (by assimilationist liberal Jews) & nearly forgotten until it was revived by Hasidim. Since studying Kabbalah is cool & 'in' (even Madonna, raised Catholic, studies it) it can't be considered a secret society by any stretch of the imagination.

Thanks, Journeyman. Obviously, I was unaware that B'nai Brith was originally a secret society.

[Azure]

Just to point out something here - Bush's membership in the Bones was not a some big secret prior to the election - the information was there for anyone who did their research on the candidates.

You have the right not to like a candidate and the right not to vote for him/her. But my hope is that eventually everyone voting will take the time to research what a candidates' history and actual stance on issues is, the candidate's real records, and thus make an informed decision not based on cheap soundbytes and pundit rhetoric.

9 times out of ten, the information is there, you just have to take the time to sort it out.

[Raevyn]

Originally posted by Garnet
Since studying Kabbalah is cool & 'in' (even Madonna, raised Catholic, studies it) it can't be considered a secret society by any stretch of the imagination.

Actually I was thinking more along the lines of that it's not a society at all.. and then I only know of about two people personally who study it so I'm not sure I'd consider it "in" or "cool"... uh I digress :D this is just my mind rambling away.

[Journeyman]

Well, first of all, there are many different animals calling themselves Qabala these days. The Qabala as studied by Madonna, Sandra Bernhardt, Roseanne Barr, and others at teh Kabbala Center in NYC is certainly not the Qabala studied by Nachmanides.

Also, Qabala has never died out or lost popularity. It has been in Jewish thought since its inception. But it has only been studied by the Orthodox because it really makes no sense at all without being tied to a strong religious belief in the Torah. Look up Nachmanides (the Ramban), the Ba'al Shem Tov, etc.

However, Qabala has never been looked upon with favour by most Jews, who saw it as dangerous thought and leading to heresy. After the Sabbatai Svi debacle, mysticism in general fell out of favour.

Maimonides (the Rambam) expounded an extremely rationalist, logical Judaism while Nachmanides (the Ramban) expounded the mystical truths of Judaism. Maimonides "won" as the people turned away from dangerous mysticism, and his Guide for the Perplexed has achieved almost canonical status within today's manifestation of Judaism.

The Chasidim, however, never left Qabala, and they exercise an ecstatic faith within Orthodox Judaism.

When Xtians discovered Kabbala, they saw it as a perfect way to prove the divinity of Jesus to teh Jews and convert them. Jews were about as angry about this as Native AMericans are about their beliefs being co-opted by teh New Age movement.

Then came the Hermetic Kabbala; a blending of Jewish Qabala, Egyptian religion as interpreted by Europeans, Alchemy, CHristianity, etc. Thsi is what is studeied by teh Golden Dawn, BOTA, and Thelemites, amiong others. Thsi is a very different animal from Jewish Qabala.

New teachers and groups have popped up, claiming to be teaching Kabbala (for example, see Shmuely Boteach, Michael Jackson's pal). WHat I have studied of most of these folks is a feel-good, new age philosophy with a slight Jewish accent.

bb,
jm

[Willow_Raindancer]

Let's not forget the KKK:evilway:
After all, they are a secret society.

I would like to say it would be impossible to lump ALL
secret societies together.
Some have positive goals, some don't.
It's up to an individual to know "what" they're getting into.
Of course by the time you find out, it may be too late:shot:

[Phoenix Blue]

Quoth Willow_Raindancer
Let's not forget the KKK:evilway:
After all, they are a secret society.
Yeah, but David Duke's membership was no secret when he ran for governor of Louisiana some years ago. . . (I think it was governor, anyway :)). His views gave him away even before the press dug up the dirt on him, though.