I need your opinions!!

[Happydeadkitty]

My SO and I were just having a odd type of chat....So I thought I'd throw it up here to see what everybody thinks.

For the most part, he doesn't give much credit to the whole "pagan thinking". Now he's all open for me to practice whatever I like, and is encouraging, but I know he thinks it's mostly BS. So we tend to have like debates.

The conversation began with my heritage... I'm Swedish, almost full. My family are all very strong and hardworking. I was raised to be proud of my heritage... My family name (although very common) goes back for generations. I have always been very proud of the fact that I'm very strong and can take anything that's thrown at me. I have always believed I'm pretty much indestructible. Literally...

Now here's the debate...I believe that this deeper belief in who I am makes me stronger still. I believe that knowing where I come from helps me along my path. He says that my race or heritage should have nothing to do with it, because if I wanted to follow my roots to find my path, Why would I stop with Sweden, I should keep going back...further still...So in the end I should just put a bone in my nose, and go all tribal. lol

Then it went into, what a witch is and if religion has anything to do with it. So I put it like this,

If you need to do something, you do it...you don't need to wait, or plan. For myself, I'm a believer that a "witch" goes in the kitchen mixes the egg with the chicken bone... She doesn't need anything special, it's simple, it's basic, it's everyday living.

So my questions for all:

Do you think your heritage means much for you're path? Or does it make you like a snob?

Does it make you less of a witch if you keep it simple?

HDK

[Evinmeer]

I don't personally think anything makes one more or less of who they are than what they do. In the end, you can believe a thing for a myriad of reasons but it won't make the slightest difference if you do nothing by it. Some draw strength from pride in their ancestral heritage, and that strength helps them live life in more involved and active way; others find their strength in different places. Like running a marathon - some use music, some use visible goals ("Just to next intersection... *pant*), and some keep it all in their heads - but they all get out there and go the distance. That's all that I think really matters in the end. :thumbsup:

[Glowy]

I believe, ( and HDK touched on this) that anything WE believe positive about ourselves anchors us and makes us stronger. If it is heritage, that is wonderful especially since HDK can trace back and feels that "links" her.

[*~Amora~*]

So my questions for all:

Do you think your heritage means much for you're path? Or does it make you like a snob?

Does it make you less of a witch if you keep it simple?


What you're describing is ceremonial magic. Not every witch practices ceremonial magic and there are some who practice, as you feel inclined - that is - using what you have on hand at the moment.

Also note, that not all pagans are witches or use magic. Some simply worship their gods.

Heritage is a valuable thing, particularly among reconstructionists. Whatever you can draw strength from, by all means, delve into it.

[Xander67]

I agree with Evinmeer and Glowy.

For instance, I am Irish and Jewish. My Jewish and Irish Roots do have some influence over how I express myself as an individual. As far as spirituality goes, I am able to draw wisdom from the qaballa, and a few aspects of Cetic tradition is appealing to me.

I do not feel duty bound to any one path because currently, human consciousness as a whole is undergoing a radical evolution. I say radical because things are changing faster and faster than they used to and still increasing in rate. (sorry about the quantumn physics insert)

There are people who can see the changes and are experienceing them personally. I think what matters most is that you are true to your heart and to your own spirit.

Through Meditation we open our hearts and our third eye to the teachings that are being given to us. Each individual will receive what he or she needs to help guide them through the turbulent times ahead.

Knowing where you came from is awesome but I feel you should not feel a sense of duty to adhere to customs or traditions if they are in conflict with the road ahead.

Example, our whole reality is on the verge of a HUGE transformation. What was good practice and good practice just five years ago is no longer wise and is in some cases a hinderance to your growth and personal well being.

This is why we need to lean more on our intuition and trust God/Goddess to guide you.

The mind LOVES a good distraction, Bad news sells like hotcakes, dont let the media distract your own growth with its doom and gloom scenario.

Through Intent, your intuition well help you know what is the right thing to do.

I do think that we should never forget where we came from, but to use an analagy, Just because we used horse and buggy years ago does not make it practical now. And actually, what we use now is not exactly practical in the light of new discoveries being made ..

The reason we celebrate Holidays and Festivals is to remember and learn the lessons they teach us ..

As for your Boyfriend, I think he needs to open his heart more, do some own soul searching, and learn to accept people for who they are and not be so quick to mock other people's beliefs.

Sorry so long winded here,
Hope this helps
Jim

[watersprite]

I don't personally think anything makes one more or less of who they are than what they do. In the end, you can believe a thing for a myriad of reasons but it won't make the slightest difference if you do nothing by it. Some draw strength from pride in their ancestral heritage, and that strength helps them live life in more involved and active way; others find their strength in different places. Like running a marathon - some use music, some use visible goals ("Just to next intersection... *pant*), and some keep it all in their heads - but they all get out there and go the distance. That's all that I think really matters in the end. :thumbsup:

Oh, absolutely! Could never have said it better!

[Toby Stimpson]

I'll open my opinion by saying that I am ethnically english, and was born in Wales... and have lived in Canada since I was 8 years old.

When people make the case for wanting to be something because of heritage, I always like to think that a heritage is all encompassing. As an ethnic english person with probable celtic and anglo-saxon roots... that means that my heritage includes imperialism, warfare, colonialism... Christianity, english celtic religion, Norse/Germanic religion, Roman religion etc,.

Ethnicity and heritage is a huge thing... it is, it's where you come from. But to say that your pagan ways are stronger because you are of a certain background wouldn't necessarily be true. Because your SO raises a good point, how far back do you go before you draw a line? Does that also include looking only at the culture that your family comes from... but then the question of what time in that culture are you going to draw from, because culture changes and adapts and grows and differs from century to century.

[Fiamma]

For the most part, he doesn't give much credit to the whole "pagan thinking". Now he's all open for me to practice whatever I like, and is encouraging, but I know he thinks it's mostly BS. So we tend to have like debates.

What is "the whole 'pagan thinking'"???

[Happydeadkitty]

"pagan thinking"...I tried to be real generic there, meaning he doesn't put much merit into, gods, goddesses, witchcraft, magick, religion...(pretty much any kind)

I appreciate the responses. Might I add a bit to what I mean by my heritage too... My dad is a brick wall, he has broken his neck three times, has cut off several appendages with a chainsaw, and has rolled 6 trucks. He still works in his woodpile every day, he's 66. His father was the same way, beat to hell, died at 88 I think.

I've always prided myself in being the same type of person. When I had my daughter, I didn't make a sound...to me that showed how strong I was, I felt it was in my blood to be tough. I don't whine or complain when I'm in pain...I deal with it, I like to feel like I'm strong like that. Does that make sense?

And I've always felt like it was in my blood. I hope this explains what I mean a bit more.

...Oh, and Toby, I agree with you saying my SO has a valid point. Which is why I wanted to bring it up here too, see what everybody else thinks too.

HDK

[Darth Brooks]

Do you think your heritage means much for you're path? Or does it make you like a snob?

I think it's up to the individual's discretion. If your heritage is important to you, then that means it is a valid part of your path, and you don't have to justify that for anyone. Same thing for if it isn't important to you.

For my own part, I am of Irish/Gaelic heritage, yet that has absolutely nothing to do with my spiritual path. So far as I know, I haven't got an ounce of Egyptian blood in me. Yet Set chose me for His own anyway. So, I think heritage is overrated in some cases. However, I think the same can be said for the reverse. If your heritage is an important part of your path, then that is the way it is and it only needs to apply to the extent that you find necessary. If you want to put a bone through your nose, fine and good, I'm all for body modification if it suits the individual. But if you want to stop with Sweden, then that is fine too. Individual discretion is what it's all about as far as I'm concerned.


Does it make you less of a witch if you keep it simple?

Not at all.

[Rick]

Do you think your heritage means much for you're path? Or does it make you like a snob?

Does it make you less of a witch if you keep it simple?

HDK
Heritage is EVERYTHING to my path... if that makes me a snob, so be it.

And yes, HDK, you feel it in your blood because it's in your blood. And the orlog of your line does give you strength.

Those that feel their ancestral blood, get it. Those that don't feel it... well, they're not gonna get it, no matter what. Sorta makes any conversation on the point moot.

[Glowingsun]

I'm part ukrainian, metis, irish, scottish, english and french. My mom is very into her ukrainian roots and I have an interest in the ukraine as well. But I have other fascinations with the other sides of my anscestry. I don't know of any other pagan in my family, but considering I have metis in me, I now know my strong pull towards paganism. Aboriginals are strong spirits. So strong that those influences travel down the genes. Ukrainians as well, are strong in their roots because we are people of the Earth and native to the land in Ukraine. (Ukrainians are not considered of the 'white' race from what I have been told.).
So I take pride of my nationalities and I find that it helps me understand more of who I am and where I fit in. This is important to pagan or wiccan practices.

[Shosha]

My heritage is nearly totally Irish. a spit of Swedish and a spit of Seminole.

My heritage means a LOT to me and to my path... I do not think it makes anyone a snob.... not at all, unless they think they're MORE on the path than someone on the same/similar path who doesn't have "as much blood" as they do.... I've met a few like that.

I know very little of the Swedish witchcraft or goddesses or gods. I just don't feel pulled that way.

When I first stepped onto my path, it was through the Seminole bit of my heritage and I feel that having lived in Florida myself for a hosrt time helped bring me to my starting point, but it quickly lead into the Irish.

It's the Irish I truley feel drawn to. I havn'et been able to visit Ireland yet, but maybe one day I will get to. Until then, I'm always looking for ways to connect with that place, that.... feeling... that end of my heritage and my path. Even to finding a place to buy peat to burn for ritual fires. I swear I know what it's going to smell like already.... *sigh*

And NO. it does NOT make you less of a witch if you keep things simple.
I started out being taught that one's greatest tool was themselves.
Nothing is simpler than that.

[Darth Brooks]

Where did this idea that people who are proud of their heritage are "snobs" come from, anyway?

[Cobalt]

Where did this idea that people who are proud of their heritage are "snobs" come from, anyway?

I've occasionally noticed it from people who'll tout it as a qualification like they'd trot out training. "Believe me, I know what I'm talking about, I'm of Celtic blood." Never mind that equating culture with nationality with race makes no anthropological sense, and never mind that coming out of an Irish woman's pelvis doesn't actually convey magickal expertise in itself. To put it another way, the fact that my grandfather was Italian means that I have some psychological and spiritual connection to Italy, but it doesn't mean I am wiser in the ways of Stregheria. If I were to assert otherwise, I would be using ethnic ties as a substitute for actually knowing what I'm talking about.

Now, I do not feel that people are snobs who feel connected to the people in their bloodline in some meaningful way (such as the first poster and her nearest sires). If heritage becomes something to learn from and emulate (and not a substitute for learning), it's not snobbery. It's pride in where you come from, and in my mind that's okay. Further, as long as "I'm great because of this" doesn't cross the line into "you're all less great because you don't have it," I can't see any room to criticize.

[Happydeadkitty]

Where did this idea that people who are proud of their heritage are "snobs" come from, anyway?

It was me amd my SO' s debate. We were debating that being proud of my ancestry is either snobbish or racist. Simply put. I hoped to explain what I was asking from all here.

To answer a message I got pm'd too. I wan't to make it cleat that I don't think I'm better or stronger than anybody else. If you cry or hurt...that doesn't make you weak to me. That has nothing to do with how I feel about myself.

My SO also says I'm unemotional and stoic too. (then he jokes is a Swedish thing!)

I love everybody responding to this thread I appreciate everybody's thoughts.

HDK

[Shosha]

I've occasionally noticed it from people who'll tout it as a qualification like they'd trot out training. "Believe me, I know what I'm talking about, I'm of Celtic blood." Never mind that equating culture with nationality with race makes no anthropological sense, and never mind that coming out of an Irish woman's pelvis doesn't actually convey magickal expertise in itself. To put it another way, the fact that my grandfather was Italian means that I have some psychological and spiritual connection to Italy, but it doesn't mean I am wiser in the ways of Stregheria. If I were to assert otherwise, I would be using ethnic ties as a substitute for actually knowing what I'm talking about.

Further, as long as "I'm great because of this" doesn't cross the line into "you're all less great because you don't have it," I can't see any room to criticize.


Exactly!! Like saying "i'm more authentically on this path than you because I'm more ethnically tied than you."

[Darth Brooks]

I've occasionally noticed it from people who'll tout it as a qualification like they'd trot out training. "Believe me, I know what I'm talking about, I'm of Celtic blood." Never mind that equating culture with nationality with race makes no anthropological sense, and never mind that coming out of an Irish woman's pelvis doesn't actually convey magickal expertise in itself. To put it another way, the fact that my grandfather was Italian means that I have some psychological and spiritual connection to Italy, but it doesn't mean I am wiser in the ways of Stregheria. If I were to assert otherwise, I would be using ethnic ties as a substitute for actually knowing what I'm talking about.

Now, I do not feel that people are snobs who feel connected to the people in their bloodline in some meaningful way (such as the first poster and her nearest sires). If heritage becomes something to learn from and emulate (and not a substitute for learning), it's not snobbery. It's pride in where you come from, and in my mind that's okay. Further, as long as "I'm great because of this" doesn't cross the line into "you're all less great because you don't have it," I can't see any room to criticize.

Well, I have to say I agree with you 100% on that one. Thanks for explaining it to me, I was really scratching my head.


It was me amd my SO' s debate. We were debating that being proud of my ancestry is either snobbish or racist. Simply put. I hoped to explain what I was asking from all here.

Oh no, I knew that already, I just meant, where did this idea come from in general? Because this isn't the first time I've ever heard of that prejudice, I just have never really understood why being proud of one's heritage should be taken as snobby. Actually I've heard the reverse too, that if you don't really care about your heritage then you're doing something wrong. (Which I equally disagree with.)

[Lunacie]

I'm part ukrainian, metis, irish, scottish, english and french. My mom is very into her ukrainian roots and I have an interest in the ukraine as well. But I have other fascinations with the other sides of my anscestry. I don't know of any other pagan in my family, but considering I have metis in me, I now know my strong pull towards paganism. Aboriginals are strong spirits. So strong that those influences travel down the genes. Ukrainians as well, are strong in their roots because we are people of the Earth and native to the land in Ukraine. (Ukrainians are not considered of the 'white' race from what I have been told.).
So I take pride of my nationalities and I find that it helps me understand more of who I am and where I fit in. This is important to pagan or wiccan practices.

While one can certainly take pride in one's ancestry and roots, one can also take pride in one's own attitude and accomplishments. Nearly every religion at this point in time is a compiliation of beliefs and practices from more than one source or religion.

I find it more important to understand the background of the religion that I currently practice than to have pride in my ancestral nationalities and allow that to influence the relgion I choose to practice. My ancestors were mostly from Great Britain with some French Canadian blood mixed in but that doesn't mean I'm limited to Catholicism or Protestant religions.



It was me amd my SO' s debate. We were debating that being proud of my ancestry is either snobbish or racist. Simply put. I hoped to explain what I was asking from all here.

To answer a message I got pm'd too. I wan't to make it cleat that I don't think I'm better or stronger than anybody else. If you cry or hurt...that doesn't make you weak to me. That has nothing to do with how I feel about myself.

My SO also says I'm unemotional and stoic too. (then he jokes is a Swedish thing!)

I love everybody responding to this thread I appreciate everybody's thoughts.

HDK

I sent a PM so as not to drag this thread off topic, but since you mentioned it, let me see if I can make my point a little clearer.

My parents were very stoic people and I tried to live up to that model in my own life. However, neither of them was afflicted with a Sensory Disorder or a Neurological Disorder. Some people are more sensitive and find it harder to hold the tears back when they are hurting. I actually managed to remain quite stoic when I broke my arm a couple of weeks ago, and submitted to having the EMS guys help me up onto a gurney, endured the jolting ambulance ride to the hospital, the exam by the doctor, waiting for what seemed a very long time to be given something for the pain. But finally when the technician was twisting my arm to get xrays of the break there were some tears that trickled down my cheeks. I am not ashamed of that. That is a real, human response to pain. I didn't do anything to shame my ancestors.

I understand that you were simply posting how you feel yourself, my PM was simply responding with my own feelings about being stoic and dealing with pain. For some people, the bucket is already pretty full so anything out of the ordinary (like giving birth or breaking an arm) means the bucket overflows for us, while for you the bucket may still be only 3/4 full.

[~Elise~]

In some extreme cases...pride in ancestry has been twisted into racism (white supremacist are one example). And it can be a fine line at times.

Elise

[Happydeadkitty]

Exactly. Which I am very far from. I would hate for someone to say think that of me because I'm proud of my family line. That's kind of where the question came from as well.

HDK

[Garnet Heart]

I don't think there's a thing snobish or racist about being into your heritage or culture. I'm mostly Scottish (> 3/4). I know this because my grandfather was way into genealogy. I'm also a bit "closer" to my roots that the average New World dweller because I was born in England and have visited Scotland dozens of times...to see my mom's family who still live there.

So I guess for me, connecting with my heritage is more about my living family than some long ancestral line. It feels good to know the same dances and the same songs my mom learned when she was young, and her parents learned before that. I feel like it also honors all my grandfather's hard work on the genealogy.

My heritage gives me a stronger sense of who I am. I don't feel that being Scottish makes me "more pagan" than anyone else. I'm not aware of anyone even sort of pagan in my ancestry. If you go back far enough, I'm sure there would be some pagans, but isn't that true of...well...everyone?

So, yeah, I'm proud about it, but I don't use it to pull rank on anyone or to make anyone else feel less important or less cultured or any such nonsense.

[Philosophia]

Do you think your heritage means much for you're path? Or does it make you like a snob?

My heritage is a part of who I am and that means I will bring it into my path. I honor my ancestors and I acknowledge their culture but because my heritage is diverse, my roots would probably have reached the region I'm closely affiliated to.


Does it make you less of a witch if you keep it simple?

No.

[Clair de la Lune]

What an interesting and thought provoking thread! Thanks for bringing all this up! I come from a mostly German, Irish, (I think some English), Pennsylvania Dutch, and some Delaware Native American heritage.

I would be interested to know what kind of pagans might have been on both sides of my family and what they practiced and how. As far as I know I am the only one (however my family doesn't know that I am).

I have a family member who is hogging the Family Tree album, and won't part with it...says she can't find it...(lying). She was supposed to make copies, but never did. There is one for the other side of the family that is in the same situation. What is it with these people? We even have family in Germany in there, but I will never know about them at this rate. I don't even think I am listed in these albums because they haven't been kept up to date. How sad. What if my children someday have questions or a school project? Am I supposed to just say, "I don't know?"