Pagan Groups Being Watched?

[Flar's Freyja]

These groups that are listed below are being watched
by a group called Rangers Association: Making A
Difference. I know that this group isn't listed but I
thought that some of the folks in our group may belong
to some of these and not know they are being watched.

Here is an email I got from another group I'm on. I don't see MW on the list and hope none of these sites belong to members.

"I have discovered the source of the christian spam we
had been getting, and have also discoved that our site
is being watched. There is a site called Rangers
Association: Making A Difference. This group is a
'watch group' and they are targeting Wiccan, Pagan &
Satanic sites all over MSN and Yahoo. They call
themselves the Rangers. They have an alert page that
has a whole bunch of sites listed that they are
watching and on. This can be reported to MSN (it is
clearly against their COC). I am going to be sending
msn a few emails, and will be passing the word about
this. Below is the list of sites that they are
"keeping an eye on." If you are a member of, or know
anyone affiliated with any of these sites, please give
them the heads up."

http://groups.msn.com/yumathequeenofsorcery
http://groups.msn.com/thewitchslegacy
http://groups.msn.com/634hpsfhrjm8sht3f1tnjvtfo1
http://groups.msn.com/TheSilverShadow
http://groups.msn.com/WiccanShadowsGrove
http://groups.msn.com/jeraswiccacenter
http://groups.msn.com/allaboutwicca
http://groups.msn.com/wiccanteacherslounge
http://groups.msn.com/thecirclesofstone
http://groups.msn.com/heavenearthsrealm
http://groups.msn.com/ambergooding411
http://groups.msn.com/WICCANSALLAROUNDTHEWORLD
http://groups.msn.com/MythicMadness
http://groups.msn.com/MysticPlace
http://groups.msn.com/witchesnightin
http://groups.msn.com/leaenasteenwicca
http://groups.msn.com/inannasplace
http://groups.msn.com/WhiteWatersMysticalForest
http://groups.msn.com/Sonsofwitches
http://groups.msn.com/wiccateenfamily
http://groups.msn.com/communitymanagersforum
http://groups.msn.com/MassDebateAboutReligion
http://groups.msn.com/doveswiccanhaven
http://groups.msn.com/DragonMoonCoven
http://groups.msn.com/BookofShadowso
http://groups.msn.com/wiccanquartermoon
http://groups.msn.com/MAGICKHEART
http://groups.msn.com/DarkPoetsSociety
http://groups.msn.com/WiccaAndWitchcraft
http://groups.msn.com/teenpagans
http://www.witchschool.com
http://groups.msn.com/SatanistsandPagansoftheworldunite
http://groups.msn.com/group/caveofthevampyres
http://www.mysteryofthedruids.com
http://groups.msn.com/solowalkings
http://groups.msn.com/thedailyguide
http://resource.at/vestascircle
http://groups.msn.com/ThisismyJourney
http://groups.msn.com/TheRealmofChristianGoth
http://groups.msn.com/PracticalMagicTeenWicca
http://groups.msn.com/FullMoonParadise
http://groups.msn.com/wiccafriendsforteens
http://groups.msn.com/lunahaven
http://groups.msn.com/cymmorilswiccanteensite
http://groups.msn.com/theladyofthelakewiccacommunity
http://groups.msn.com/purelypagan
http://groups.msn.com/realmofmagick
http://groups.msn.com/lostteenpagan
http://groups.msn.com/Thelightinthedark
http://groups.msn.com/newagespiritualcenter
http://groups.msn.com/vigilforpeace
http://groups.msn.com/TheFallenAngelsChildrenFallenAlliance
http://groups.msn.com/oTriMoono (my site.. under
construction)
http://groups.msn.com/InannasPlace
http://groups.msn.com/TheWittanWay (Witta site)
http://groups.msn.com/MythicMadness
http://groups.msn.com/SacredCircleofWitches
http://groups.msn.com/PaganemailNetwork (general pagan
site)
http://groups.msn.com/MoonRede ( as above)
http://uk.groups.yahoo.com/group/CourtofAlbion (UK
branch of Vampire Church.. )
http://uk.groups.yahoo.com/group/TheMidnightPride
(weres of the feline variety)
http://uk.groups.yahoo.com/group/VampireChurch (ironic
name for real vampire group.. sang/ psy/ elemental
etc.)
http://uk.groups.yahoo.com/group/VampireChurchPoetry
http://uk.groups.yahoo.com/group/letsdrowninourtears
(goth group)
http://uk.groups.yahoo.com/group/theicourtyard (pagan
group)
http://uk.groups.yahoo.com/group/WiccanContacts
http://uk.groups.yahoo.com/group/witchesoflondon
http://uk.groups.yahoo.com/group/witchessolitaire
http://www.swampfox.demon.co.uk/utlah/ (the Wereweb..
therianthropy site.. all varieties)
http://www.thehungersite.com
http://bigcats.care2.com/
http://rainforest.care2.com/

[PrincessHLHofMW]

thats kinda spooky...and the care2 websites?? alright then....no comment on that!

[Semele]

HHMMMMMM....what are the watching for exactly?? I don't see that they can cause any harm by "watching" us. In fact, they may learn a little something. Hell, they may even decide to join and participate, at which point if they got nasty they could be swiftly dealt with!! :D

I welcome any and all watchers to come to MW!!!!

[Theres]

i find it despicable, but not surprising. and in case your wondering just who it is that's watching, here's there hiding place...
http://www.tripnet.com/q-nasty/links.html#christians

nice crowd!

[materra]

You know, in some ways there is something to be said for innocence and naivety....Sometimes I am so tired of what I know about the world, suspect about other parts of it, and get just plain exhausted trying to keep up.

[LunarSun]

I think it is time for them to GET A LIFE and respect the beliefs of others. But having been there - its kinda hard for them when they are taught that they are the only belief that is correct and everyone else must be SAVED from their beliefs - just about everytime the church doors open. Again I say -- GET A LIFE!!

[SerenityMoon]

-_- it's really sad that there are still people out there who cannot stand the fact that others beliefs are different than their own. *sighs*

[Yvonne Belisle]

ick and i thought i had no life

[Sequoia]

:rolleyes: ooooh wow they're watching us. . . what exactly are they 'watching' for? And if they find this mysterious thing, what are they going to do, post and whine about it?

Honestly, who cares? They can't do anything, they're just being paranoid and silly. The web isn't 'private.' Who cares who sees which pages? :rolleyes: anyone can view any page. So why are you getting so excited over this?

ooh look, I just went and 'watched' a few christian websites. OOOH MY I infiltrated a church this morning when I went to service! How evil and menacing!

may I give a resounding :rolleyes:

[Ryhla]

I have a friend...he's not a member of this community, but he is wiccan. I'm sending the email list to him. Be good for him to know this.

[Semele]

Originally posted by Puma Hime
Who cares who sees which pages? :


Tee-Hee...very punny!!!!

[Theres]

i don't understand the apathy here. this is a political issue being discussed in the political forum. nobody is saying we need to raise the call and march on these people, just that it's an interesting subject. we've had discussions here about burning Harry Potter books, about Wicca being challenged as not a 'real' religion, about many related topics.
as far as the 'who cares' attitude, the same could be said of every discussion in every forum on this board. then where would we be?

[Flar's Freyja]

Originally posted by Greenman
i don't understand the apathy here. this is a political issue being discussed in the political forum. nobody is saying we need to raise the call and march on these people, just that it's an interesting subject. we've had discussions here about burning Harry Potter books, about Wicca being challenged as not a 'real' religion, about many related topics.
as far as the 'who cares' attitude, the same could be said of every discussion in every forum on this board. then where would we be?

I have to agree. We're tired of it and it pisses us off, but this is reality. I live in an area where I could lose my job if I was too open about my faith. In fact, it's already caused me problems. I helped organize the pagan community in the small town that I live in, and we had meet and greets in the meeting room of the restaurant that my son and I both work in part-time. At the beginning, I asked everyone to keep it low-key not for myself, but because my son has worked there for a long time. The manager is openly Christian (but we won't discuss her own lifestyle and that of her family)........They got a bit carried away, setting up an altar in the room and doing little workshops on making ritual robes and such, and I found my hours cut in half. I'm not making a stink for the sake of my son, but I am 100% sure that this is the reason why, since next to him I'm the best hostess they have. I've stopped meeting with that group for this and various other reasons, but I'm still thrilled that they have grown in leaps and bounds and that I helped build that foundation.

It's just real life. These groups can cause problems, and it behooves us all to remain aware that they're still out there ready to pounce if they can get away with it.

[materra]

Greenman, we have been watched all along...I have always known this. And so have you. The only difference is now alot more of us know.

We are watched by everybody...and I mean everybody. Wiccan's and Pagan's represent some kind of threat to so many. The governments watches to see if we organize against them, the Christians from fear, the extremest of all kinds because we are free thinkers and see through their garbage.

Greenman, IMO it isn't really apathy...it is going on with our lives the best we know how inspite of what we know others think of us. We take our stands in our homes, our communities and where needed. We don't seek out to "get" or "watch" others. Do as ye will as long as it harms none.

Each day we draw breath as Pagans and treat people with dignity, compassion and human decency we defeat these kind of folks.

[Phoenix Blue]

Well-spoken, Materra. I agree.

So these folks are "watching" us. Big deal--let 'em! **Shrugs** As Semele said, maybe they'll learn something. As long as there's no outright harassment going on, more power to 'em--and if there is outright harassment, you deal with it on an incident-to-incident basis.

[Flar's Freyja]

I must add that I would have to challenge anyone to find anything but love, dignity, compassion and human decency on this or most of the other pagan boards and lists. I also own one but it's an illness support list for pagans so probably isn't in their faces as blatantly.

Thanks, Materra. Excellent point.

[Raevyn]

Materra you've made an excellent point - by putting any website online we *know* people who don't agree with are going to see it. We *know* people are always watching. And as Semele said, maybe they'll learn something, maybe one out of the thousands will stop and consider Paganism as real and valid. And conversely, maybe a thousand Pagans will find information, community, support, research, help, and spiritual advancement.

If we were to suggest those people couldn't create their clubs and websites because we disagree with their motives, who are we to say they can't do the same to us? Freedom must apply to everyone. As Xois used to say, feel free to swing your fists as much as you want, as long as you don't pop someone in the face.

[Theres]

my comments weren't about whether or not we're being 'watched'. i was commenting about the cold shouldered way that this thread has been recieved.
it's an interesting topic about an important subject. but it seems that Freyja is being told rather off-handedly "who cares, we're just getting on with it".
THAT is what i'm objecting to, and i don't understand the reason. perhaps more smileys would make it a topic worthy of discussion?

[Flar's Freyja]

(((((Greenman))))) I posted it only because I thought it was of interest and that there are some who might be concerned. No worries, this is a good discussion and my feelings aren't an issue :):):)

[Rævyn Cigány]

I am assistant manager of one of these communities and a dedicant of the Witchschool (they are Correllian Tradition). I am appauled, shocked, dismayed and most of all scared s**tless.... so many of my friends' communities have been wiped out (including Tintagel, my own, nearly two winters ago) by people like this who figure the only way to 'shut us up' is to take away our means of communication with each other.

It's frightening...

B*B

Rae )O(

[paygun]

Freyja, please let us know what you hear from msn.

I think this is a hoax. The Rangers are a clone of the Boy Scouts, but with a fundamentalist Christian bent, sponsored by the Assemblies of God Church. At the very least, "watching" these sites is not a sanctioned activity according to them. That doesn't mean that someone affiliated with them wouldn't do it, though.

If that's the case, this whole thing could be solved by a letter asking them if it's a requirement that their leaders be educated in the ways of the occult before they have access to the young boys. I'm pretty sure that would put a stop to it, if that's what's going on.

Keep us posted on what you find out.

Edited, spelling.

[Flar's Freyja]

Originally posted by paygun
Freyja, please let us know what you hear from msn.

I think this is a hoax. The Rangers are a clone of the Boy Scouts, but with a fundamentalist Christian bent, sponsored by the Assemblies of God Church. At the very least, "watching" these sites is not a sanctioned activity according to them. That doesn't mean that someone affiliated with them wouldn't do it, though.

If that's the case, this whole thing could be solved by a letter asking them if it's a requirement that their leaders be educated in the ways of the occult before they have access to the young boys. I'm pretty sure that would put a stop to it, if that's what's going on.

Keep us post on what you find out.

Thanks, Paygun. I was wondering if it had anything to do with the "Royal Rangers."

I need to be more careful posting stuff I get from e-mails, I guess. I'm just passing along the info, and I thought that the question mark at the end of the title of the thread would clarify that I was just putting it out there for discussion. I'll keep an eye out for additional info on the list that it came from, which was actually a yahoo list.

If it's not hoax, wonder how long it'll take 'em to find my Wise Witches list :lol:

[paygun]

Don't get me wrong, I do think it's worth checking out.

[PrincessHLHofMW]

like i said before it does kinda freak me out that my site as soon as i get it up and goin again could be added to the list :(

[Phoenix Blue]

**Nods at Tink** I've learned that the best way to carry oneself on any website is to do so as if you're being watched. :) Because you are being watched. . . that's the whole point of creating a website. And barring tight control over who can join the group, you won't always be watched by the most well-intentioned individuals. . . my ex-wife comes to mind, for some nasty stunts she pulled while I was still on BeliefNet.

[Kaylara]

I don't doubt that there are people out there who are watching us. Hell, I've seen them... I've even seen some Christian Witches who use magick to fight against pagans and witches magickally, and astrally. Sometimes these people can be frightening, and can try to harm people. I think that it's a serious matter because we don't know who they are or what their intentions are. I don't doubt that here we can handle anything that is thrown at us. I worry about the smaller groups though.

Kaylara

[Flar's Freyja]

Okay, according to this board:

http://groups.msn.com/JerasWiccaCenter/jeraswiccacenter.msnw

things have been blown out of proportion. Several of the members say that they are members of the Rangers also, including the owner of the list, who knows that it's being watched and she is not concerned. From what I gather, the purpose of their watching the groups is not a negative one, but I don't have the full story just yet.

Sorry for the false alarm, but there may be others out there who might be a risk of harm.

[Phoenix Blue]

What Rangers? What the :devil: is going on here: are these some freaks that think they're watching for Shadows? Or is this group of "Rangers" a legit organization?

The group you linked to is members-only. . . which stifles any information coming out. :) Could you share some more details about this Rangers group?

[Flar's Freyja]

Originally posted by Phoenix_Blue
What Rangers? What the :devil: is going on here: are these some freaks that think they're watching for Shadows? Or is this group of "Rangers" a legit organization?

The group you linked to is members-only. . . which stifles any information coming out. :) Could you share some more details about this Rangers group?

I've e-mailed the list owner of Jera's Wicca Center off-list to get more info and I'll let you know when she replies :D

Editing to add: I thought about joining Rangers myself to find out, but then I'd be just as bad, wouldn't I? I looked at their site, which is also members-only and their header says "Making a Difference." This is their url: http://groups.msn.com/rangersassociationmakingadifference

[Flar's Freyja]

The Jera's Wicca Center list has been rather quiet and the only reply I received to my post there was that one of the members planned to join to find out for themselves what the group is really about. So far, no feedback.

I considered doing that myself but decided it's not worth bothering with.

[Mythrel]

since becoming a pagan openly, I have live in a few different locations...and I must say that the Christian side of the house is definitely scared, uninformed and hostile to pagans in most places. I don't know if these people are trying to gather info to help themselves become informed or if they are gathering info for some sort of Pagan bashing/war mentality...either way, they should be wathced so we are not caught unaware...

we don't need another inquisition...

just my jaded, cynical 2 cents worth...;)

[Flar's Freyja]

I agree, and that's why I decided not to join the group. It would make me no better than some of them.

[Nina]

I'm happily pagan, and anyone who visits my home with a little bit of knowledge will 'recognise' that. I don't parade my faith at work - I'm in management, and it wouldn't matter whether I was a witch, jewish , christian, or a follower of the great god Barney, it would be frowned upon. Anyone who knows me could pick me out of the posts I write here - I tend to tell you guys what's going on in my life!! And my picture is up in member's piccies!

BUT

And it's a big BUT

I don't like being watched. I get nervous sometimes when I'm here and the guests outnumber the members!!! Discrimination does still happen - check out Freyja's story. Yet, we want the freedom to do as we will on this wonderful internet thingy, and we must realise that freedom is a sword with two edges - there will always be others that use that freedom to do things we don't like. The only way to stop that, is to remove the freedom from all of us - which is certainly not what I want to happen.

I doubt that these 'watchers' can do me any harm, I'm an adult, strong in my faith and pretty good at self-protection. But they may be able to hurt/scare others not so old as me!

[Earthsprite]

BLAH! This was a hoax. Ask soloess@hotmail.com . The Rangers Association is a Pagan site that looks for Christian attackers. Someone from within their group started this untrue rumor!!

[Mythrel]

and so the truth comes out....

[Danustouch]

Whether we are, or are not being watched by this specific group, there are plenty of militant radical christian groups out there, that DO cause problems for Wiccans and Pagans. And indeed, for anyone of an "alternative lifestyle".

When I was living in CT, a friend of mine introduced me to a girl, whose parents' were members of a very large fundamentalist/evangelical Christian Church, in my town. She had long ago decided that Christianity wasn't for her, and had stopped attending that church. She was 21 when I met her. Over the age where she had the right to decide for herself, which religion she wanted to take part in. When she met me, and she asked me about paganism, I volunteered to allow her to borrow some of my books. In a short time, she joined a local Wiccan Coven. And we developed a close friendship. Eventually, her parents found out about her "activities", and asked their Church to "Pray" for her. They actually held a specific prayer service for her. And alot of their Praying had to do with the "Witch" who "Seduced" her into Paganism (uh...Me..supposedly). Their Church had an interesting membership. One of their Deacons was a member of a group called "Cops For Christ". A group of policemen in the area, who were also born again christians. Supposedly a fellowship and support group. With his expertise, and his "abilities", he began to Follow both She AND I, and spy on us. We weren't doing anything illegal, so, he really couldn't do anything except spy. However, Looking out your window, and knowing that the man sitting down in the car on the street below, is watching your apartment, your comings and goings, and who else comes into your house, is extremely unnerving, to say the least. To have your privacy intruded upon in such a way, is a horrible feeling. You feel stalked, and it is horrible.

Things began to escalate, in this church, over time. And girls who had been friends with the girl I befriended back when she was a Christian ...suddenly started to become "Ill" in the middle of Sunday Service at church. Turns out, two of these girls, were pregnant. Rather than admit to their pregnancy in front of their parents, and church, they decided to blame it on Me, and my friend. We were "Hexing Them" " Cursing them". They were being "attacked" by demons :rolleyes: . This created a shock wave of paranoia in that Church. People started "Confessing" That they'd seen Me, This other Girl, and our 'COVEN' Doing rituals on the Church Property dressed in long black robes, and carrying candles. Neither she, nor I, owned a black robe. And both she, and I were part of differen't covens. So..this was entirely made up. But..the number of members in this church, was astounding. A church of 500 members. Some of them Doctors, Lawyers, People in the Press, Police Officers, town polititians, schoolboard members....you get the picture.

Finally, I had had enough. I called the ACLU, and told them what was happening. They told me that if the harrassment from this "Cop for Christ" and other members of that Church did not stop, if I suffered any loss of work, or threaghts, that I should think about suing them.

In a last ditch effort, I called the Pastor of that Church, and wound up talking to his wife. I told her that I demanded she, her husband, and their church Cease and Desist their harrassment, and gossip of me. That it was causing me problems in my Job (because several of the Church members worked in my department at work, and had started a gossip mill about me there, too), and that if it didn't stop, I would be forming a case of Libel, Slander, and Harrassment against them. I also mentioned that this is exactly the same thing that had happened in Salem back in the 1600's. And that when one looks back, and see's the terrors that happened due to ignorance, false accusations, and paranoia, that they could see how dangerous such things could be to innocent folks, just trying to live their lives.

After that, I had no problems with this Church. However, that experience has stayed with me, years after. You can't sweep groups like this under the carpet, and assume that they "Can't" get away with things like this. You can't assume that they aren't out there, and that they WONT cause problems for you. You cant stick your head in the sand, and ignore the fact that they do exist. Unless you live your life, completely in the closet, not even telling your closest friends of your religion, then it is POSSIBLE for you to encounter situations like this. And the best thing that you can do, is learn what YOU can do about the situation, should it ever arise.

Incidentally, the Ironic Ending to the Story...I had my "OWN" Friend on the Police Force. An Asatru practitioner, who I think spoke to this "Cop for Christ" and threaghtened to expose his activities. And about a year after this situation calmed down, the Pastor of this Church had to step down from his pulpit, because he'd been accused of 12 counts of having sex with female parishioners who had been going to him for "Counselling". The youngest of whom, was 18...and had gotten "Pregnant". That's right. One of the girls who'd gotten Sick, on Sunday Morning.

[flar7]

Originally posted by Earthsprite
BLAH! This was a hoax. Ask soloess@hotmail.com . The Rangers Association is a Pagan site that looks for Christian attackers. Someone from within their group started this untrue rumor!!

Not a hoax. The Royal Rangers are definitely not pagan. Check
out their site and the links.

[bluecat]

That is a Baptist Youth Group, Southern Baptist, as I recall. I am heartbroken, they aren't watching me, but then I am sitting here in my skivvies :D and smoking a big ol' fat cigar. Wouldn't they just love that BUWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!:devil: :devil: :devil:

[Flar's Freyja]

Originally posted by Earthsprite
BLAH! This was a hoax. Ask soloess@hotmail.com . The Rangers Association is a Pagan site that looks for Christian attackers. Someone from within their group started this untrue rumor!!

The members who have posted it about on the other list have never stated that the Rangers is a pagan group although they have minimized the rumors of threat to pagan groups. While it is possible that they may not be specifically denominational, they are not pagan.

On the first page of this thread someone posted a link listing several other "cyber-nazi" groups that are also watching pagan groups.

I am not certain whether they are the same as the Royal Rangers. The Royal Rangers are a youth ministry group under the Assemblies of God.

[bluecat]

I am not certain whether they are the same as the Royal Rangers. The Royal Rangers are a youth ministry group under the Assemblies of God. [/B]

Ah, I forgot about the Assembly of God folks. Now I recall that it was the "Royal Ambassadors," or something like that; they were affiliated with the Baptist church that asked my brother to quit coming after his wife divorced him. They weren't very good "Ambassadors." Folks sure can be ugly inside.

Blue :rolleyes:

[Flar's Freyja]

Originally posted by Greenman
in case your wondering just who it is that's watching, here's there hiding place...
http://www.tripnet.com/q-nasty/links.html#christians


Anywhoo.......if what Earthsprite says is true, great. As Greenman pointed out, there are several other watch groups.

IMHO, if anyone wants to have the mission of cleaning up cyberspace, there are far more important and dangerous things going on. It would make more sense to invest energy into watching out for predators and child molesters.

Editing to add:

Danus: Thanks for sharing that experience. These things can and do happen and often without any sort of a group being involved.

The outcome of your story reminds me of the music minister in the church I used to attend who got drunk and took off with the church van and ended up being arrested for DUI. The truth as to why he was dismissed was kept quiet, needless to say.

[Earthsprite]

Ok......well, the Rangers Association is not on that link. It's a MSN Groups site. This rumor was spread about them. They are 'wiccan rangers'. Some member lied about them. I'm assuming they lied to have gotten membership, too.

[Flar's Freyja]

Thanks, Earthsprite. I don't feel right about e-mailing your friend as I'm not sure if you have her permission to post her e-mail address here? I would like to know more about the group.

[Earthsprite]

Yes, I'm sorry :(. I know how rude that was to openly post her email address. But she was so upset, and I'm sure she wants to make sure people know the truth.

[Flar's Freyja]

Originally posted by Earthsprite
Yes, I'm sorry :(. I know how rude that was to openly post her email address. But she was so upset, and I'm sure she wants to make sure people know the truth.

Not necessarily rude, but do you have her permission for any of us to contact her? I do thank you for stepping in and trying to clear things up as I did try to get answers from those on another board and haven't been successful. As I said in a previous post, I don't want to join their group for the sole purpose of finding out what they're about since I'm not interested in becoming a member whether I like them or not.

[Earthsprite]

Originally posted by Freyja
As I said in a previous post, I don't want to join their group for the sole purpose of finding out what they're about since I'm not interested in becoming a member whether I like them or not.

Uh, what? Did I ever imply that? Because if I did, I didn't mean to, sorry.

[Flar's Freyja]

What? No, no - I said it was something I'd considered and decided against. You had nothing to do with it :)

[Earthsprite]

Oh, ok :)