Nocturnal Gothic Magick & Witchcraft

[fulcanelli]

I'm curious if others in this group (and obviously me) are interested in nocturnal witchcraft/gothic magick? My own interest started during the end of the summer when I picked a book of the shelf at a local bookstore, a book called "Gothic Grimoire" by Konstantinos. At the time, I had a Yahoo! group about occult books - new releases, so was interested in just about anything I could find new. And I had seen Konstantinos' name before...in my own pile of books, even...a book about summoning spirits.

After five minutes, I was totally lost in that book. My idea was I'd go scan through it over a cup of coffee and get enough information to describe it in my group (Now deleted, btw....) Wow...there was some real interesting stuff in that book. I didn't fully realize how important reading it was to read his first book, well, first as it was sort of a primer: "Nocturnal Witchcraft." I found out right after buying GG, and went and found NW and jumped in. I should tell all of you I had no interest in witchcraft in all the years (and years) that I've been reading occult literature.

I think what really sold me was his introduction in NW. He defines spirituality into Good/Evil as a vertical axis, and Dark/Light as the horizontal. That made four profiles: Light/Good, Light/Evil, Dark/Good and Dark/Evil. His methods are entirely Dark/Good. Well, I mean, it's not like I've looked into his heart or anything. LOL.

So since reading the first book I've been fascinated with all I've found and doing a great deal of research on the darker energies in the universe, darker pantheons, the moon deities, etc.

Has anybody else found themselves pursuing a dark/good path, and if so, have you seen these books? I also met (online) another author named John J. Coughlin, and picked up his book, "Out of the Shadows." Another fascinating read.

If you are drawn in such a way, please share some stories (how you found the darkness, how you modified your spiritual practices to accomodate these interests, and anything else you are willing to share.)

[Haedis]

I've never heard of the books but they do seem interesting, though I'm sure I'd disagree with much of it wholeheartedly :D .

I dont define spirituality or witchcraft as dark or light, good or bad. Infact, as close as my beliefs come would be creative and destructive order and disorder.

I do, however, have leanings toward "darker" deities, ritual themes, philosophy, etc etc. though I am on a Path that atleast LEADS me to believe that I'm doing good (I know, I know... I have an issue with absolutes).

Care to share your own your own story to give me a better idea of what you mean?

(specifically what about your Path makes it dark/good?)

[Raevyn]

NW was out before SS? I didn't even see the former until recently but I've had the latter for awhile, that's why I ask. I flipped through that one and GG in the bookstore the other night but I'm not really interested in dark Wicca so.. just didn't appeal to me. Let me know what you think of it, I'm interested to see what comments others have as well.

[Flar's Freyja]

I'm not familiar with this either but am interested in learning.

[fulcanelli]

No, SS (Summoning Spirits) was out long before NW (Nocturnal Witchcraft, which just came out last February. And GG (Gothic Gromoire) came out in September. What I was saying was that I owned SS, that it was on my shelf, and that I was familiar with Konstantinos' name. I am not drawn to either Wicca or Witchcraft books in general.

Though the title says 'witchcraft,' it is really not Wiccan. (a later post noted that s/he was not interested in Wiccan, and that is true for me, too!) Unfortunately, the whole kit and koogle of witchcraft is now associated with Wicca! Not true at all. I hear the traditional witchcraft people are hiding, have gone way undergound with the mass popularity of Wicca.

Konstantinos is not, from what I can tell, a practioner of Wiccan ways. His background is more along the lines of ceremonial magick.

I am not claiming that this is now 'my way' at all, but only that I am finding it quite fascinating and have been exploring the material. If you are at all familiar with Rudolf Steiner (who was under consideration for cannonization by the Catholic Church, though he himself was not, as far as I know, even Catholic), you will see how far from witchcraft I truly was.

Konstantinos makes an interesting point about the light/evil group, the televangalists who live a very different life in front of and away from the camera, or the businessman who will deceive and cheat so he can make more money, but appear to be working the good side of things.

These books do not work with really dark, evil energy at all. In fact, many cultures created much room for the darker deities. The entire Egyptian civilization was obsessed with the afterlife, and many of the main gods and goddesses were linked to the underworld, to the spiritual significance of death, and what happens after. "The Book of the Dead" describes the actual process after death. Lunar deities are very important in many traditions.

There is an abundance of life and energy in the darkness, and Konstantinos' approach to this embraces that life and growth, from an area that some traditions totally avoid.

I am careful in my decisions and always take into consideration the results of my choices and actions, and how they might impact other people. However, there is another side to life, too, and I don't always want to play in the sunshine, and watch happy G rated movies, and listen to bubble gum pop music. I'm more complex than that, and filled with contradictions. I like dark, offbeat movies, love and ethereal music, and am drawn to the offbeat in life. No, I don't have any dead bodies in my closets. It's nothing like that at all. The Dark Moon is a time of transition. We are always in transition and acknowledging that is helpful in spiritual unfoldment.

I really think if you want to get a good idea of what I'm talking about, next time you are in a bookstore, pick one of these off the shelf and read a bit.

I know that Konstantinos also wrote books on contacting the dead, and about vampire culture, and I'm not interested in either of those books. The topics, yes, particularly what happens to us after death. That is what originally drew me to Rudolf Steiner because he has quite a lot of work devoted to related topics.

My own interests are only in dark energy that would be used for 'good' purpose, for positive and constructive activities. Keep in mind that we all are in a state of change, and that apparent bad change can also bring good, just as death is used to fertilize the ground to create new life.

[Raevyn]

No it had nothing to do with the title (since I do know the difference), it's because I flipped to the table of contents and I recall "Wicca" or "Dark Wicca" or something similar being one of the chapters (I did take both off the shelf and read a bit of each).

To me it seems the book seems to stress that there is use in dark or negative aspects, which I happen to know from experience (Sekhmet, anyone? Hekate? Both my matrons, present and past). Also it centers on classifying and working with "dark, good", which again is not my style. I've kind of learned to just go with the flow and not classify. I don't mean to say his or your way is wrong, again, but that for me it isn't really applicable, you know?

I work towards ma'at and towards Will - which are beyond bad or good, positive or negative. They are both words for "the right way", "harmony", "justice", etc. - sometimes you have to find ma'at in a destructive or negative way, or even by doing something "bad". You just do what you have to do because that's the "right way". (imho)

Personally I'm studying Kemeticism (Ancient Egyptian beliefs and culture) and various forms of Ceremonial Magick and that sort of thing - Thelema and Kabbalah and so on. To me it seems like those two books would leave me with a "oh yeah, been there, done that" feeling rather then with more knowledge or understanding. Again, not meant to offend or say it's a bad book at all, just not my style. I would be interested in seeing what you learn from it or gain or what discussions it brings up for you, as I think we might have a lot to talk about in the future.

[fulcanelli]

How odd...I have both books and searched not only the chapter titles, but the back cover description of both books and found no references to Wicca. The book classification by the publisher is New Age/Witchcraft/Magick Studies but...no Wicca. The author is described as a Dark Neopagan. As I stated earlier, Konstantinos himself studied ceremonial and kabbalistic approach to magick (as I have myself studied for more than 15 years.)

"To me it seems like those two books would leave me with a "oh yeah, been there, done that" feeling rather then with more knowledge or understanding."

Too bad you did not look a bit deeper into these books, you would have seen that they weren't meant to 'teach' you anything...other than techniques for self-teaching, for developing self-knowledge. Some might find this series of books unsatisfactory because they do require the practitioner to actually do his or her own work and research.

I do agree with you, however, that these books are not your cup of tea! :)

[Raevyn]

Originally posted by fulcanelli
other than techniques for self-teaching, for developing self-knowledge.

Maybe I'm not being clear to you, fulcanelli. Some people have already learned this sort of thing. For instance, again, "dark good" and "dark bad". Learning that has been the major spiritual lesson in the past year and a half of *my* life - working with Hekate, Aset, and Sekhmet, dealing with two miscarriages, several deaths, several ended relationships, personal demons, deep depression, health problems, and an event that was cathartic and yet absolutely necessary after all the pain; believe me, I have some idea. Sometimes you need to go through the dark because that's what leads to Will and Ma'at, whether it feels "good" or "bad". In more then 15 years if you hadn't learned the same through experience count yourself lucky.

I'm looking at reviews of GG and NW, and one of GG mentioned "nocturnal Sabbats" and the Gods related to them. A review of NW mentions recognizing the "Crone phase of the Goddess". Both of these things are Wiccan, in my understanding. As to the chapter title, I apologize, I must've seen it in another book I looked at that night. There's no point arguing about that so we'll have to agree to disagree ;)

As to ceremonial magick - thelema, kabbalah, kemeticism, even chaos magick and satanism are already in my reading list in the form of other books, sites, and essays. If you've read Ritual Magic of the Golden Dawn edited by Francis King you're more then welcome to let me know what you think of it in the thread I started in Books - if you have comments on The Golden Dawn or The Middle Pillar by Israel Regardie let me know too.

[Gwion]

"The shape in the dark was my destiny. It would change my life forever. I would use it's image to strike fear into the hearts of those who do evil. I would insure that what happened to me would never happen to anyone ever again."~Bruce Wayne

I am definitely a Goth Witch. I once belonged to a small coven in San Diego called Nightshade. In a scary world, giving the appearance of ferocity can go along way toward being able to walk a peaceful path. There is a fine difference between looking formidable, and looking for a fight; and it's not an issue of fashion, but of body posture and attitude. I believe Batman is the strongest archetype of this sort in modern mythology, very much the Cernunnos/Hades. I find it interesting that his symbol is also a Labris. The Joker even exhibits a lot of Pan's darker qualities.

Superman would be more like the Light/Good Apollo archetype.

[fulcanelli]

Crone witches and Sabbats both long predate the Wiccan impulse. I recently read that ancient Greek civilization celebrated Hektate in that capacity. As for Sabbats, for sure the Celtic pagan traditions celebrate the Sabbats, which really divide the year into four seasons and midpoints. That the Wiccan outlook adapted this does not make it their own invention.

Perhaps this group has members well versed in that sort of history...

[Storm]

Answering your question...Yes, but I don't lean toward Dark/good..I am it and leaning a little futher to Dark/evil but not really...rather naughty...but my honor keeps me from tipping to far. :) (I'd make someone my love slave for life if it so pleases me, but I can't believe it wouldn't please him to be my love slave, for all that.) ;) Anyway. I have SS and I started to read it but stoped because I felt I needed to develope my trance work further before continuing. So Konstantenos is good? SS is Llewellyn and I am ever suspicious of anything Llewellyn puts out. Tell me he isn't typical fare and I may be induced to purchasing the other books you mentioned.

[Raevyn]

Originally posted by fulcanelli
I recently read that ancient Greek civilization celebrated Hektate in that capacity. As for Sabbats, for sure the Celtic pagan traditions celebrate the Sabbats, which really divide the year into four seasons and midpoints.

I have a Recon friend who'd throw a tantrum if she saw you saying that.. actually a few of them. But they aren't here and as I said, it's not really worth arguing over ;) Having had Hekate as my matron for over a year, and having a friend who's also dedicated to her, I'd have to disagree with you. Don't believe everything you read.

As to the sabbats, witchcraft is the practice of folk magic, and doesn't inherently involve religious observances - ie. sabbats. The sabbats traditionally serve as holidays to mark the change of seasons as a recognition of the changes in the God and Goddess - again, that's religion, not magic. You can call them Celtic or you can call them Wiccan though unless the former is examined in great depth and a great part of these books I would guess they're meant in the latter form.

That said, yes Storm, Konstantinos does write some very unique stuff which you might find quite useful. If you are interested in examining the idea of dark/good, do check out the two mentioned here. I like his Summoning Spirits as it's also quite unique. Another book for "nocturnal Witchcraft" you might see is Ly de Angeles' Witchcraft : Theory and Practice - though it's not centered around classifications of "good" and "bad" etc. it does provide some unique Witchcraft practices you don't find elsewhere.

[Gwion]

I'd make someone my love slave for life if it so pleases me, but I can't believe it wouldn't please him to be my love slave, for all that.

Now THERE is another facet of Dark/Good, THAT whole scene of dom/sub. I know quite a few Witches whose brooms drift that way:)

[Laiste]

Just yesterday I purchased both NW and GG! So of course i had to come on MW and do a search and see what discussions have come up about Konstantino! I have already read almost half of NW!

I do want to point out that there is a chapter in NW that is titled "Wicca by night" and here is a quote from it: "Readers new to the Craft will learn more about the dark take on Wicca covered in our system."

Now, on to the book itself..very interesting read IMHO! I have been reading a lot of books lately on the "dark" energies and so forth. It has been helping me through the dark times I am going through at the moment. While reading NW I feel as if I am being spoken to directly from the author....his writing is very clear and he asks many questions of you and gives you a lot of visualizations to work with. That is the style I prefer. I have not yet practiced any of the rituals described but I will be sure to post about them when I do.