The Sniper Killings/shootings

[Kaylara]

I just heard something awful on the radio. They said that they found the death card from the Tarot deck with a message scrawled on the back for police at the scene of the last shooting.

[Phoenix Blue]

I'd love to know where they heard that. . . this morning's report from MSNBC (http://www.msnbc.com/news/816566.asp) says no such thing.

[st0rm]

msnbc dosnt update fast.... now the tarot stuffs up

[st0rm]

President Bush denounced the attacks Monday as “cowardly and senseless acts of violence”

hmmm... cowardly and senseless reminds me of the so called war on terrorism.....

[Phoenix Blue]

Let's leave the politicking out of this. One has nothing to do with the other.

I just caught the Tarot Card thing on Wren's Nest. . . still, it's probably nothing indicative of the shooter's faith. Miss Cleo isn't Pagan, either, remember. :)

[BeachWitch]

CNN reported this morning that in deed a clue was found.

It was the Major Arcana Death Card, but they did not indicate what deck it was from. The message said:
"Dear Policeman, I am God."


http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=578&u=/nm/20021009/ts_nm/crime_shootings_dc_49

http://www.cnn.com/2002/US/South/10/09/shootings.maryland/index.html

This is just what we need for our community. :meanface:
I just wish once, just once, a serial killer would use a Christian Symbol in their maniacal rampage. Or a Jewish Symbol, how about a Mormon Symbol, or even a Hindu symbol, hell at this point I'd settle on any symbol outside the Pagan Community!

So.... since most of us here are intimately aware of the Tarot and it's symbology, and going with the hypothesis that this maniac is even slightly educated, what do you think he's really saying?

The Death card is the symbol for dramatic change. What do you think this maniac wants to change? or wants to have changed?

[st0rm]

welll... the shooter isnt prolly very happy with how it is right now, and wants a change or he just stole it from his gfs tarot deck because it looked cool... but i belive hes a white male, prolly middle class, pretty well educted, a member in the nra and/or ex millitary, rents to much videos, loner, atheist or hyper christian.... thats just my theory about the shooter

[Danustouch]

Hmmmmm..now..that message seems to point it away from Wicca, and some other pagan paths, at least. There are many paths that do believe that all human beings are Gods...so I'm sure that the police will start looking at them. Sounds almost like a Zodiac Killer crossed with a Jack The Ripper type. As far as profiling for the killer, I'd say he's doing this for attention, and feeding off of th attention the press is giving him. That's probably why they are letting so many details of the case into the press. The more attention he gets, hopefully, the less killings he will do. If the press suddenly stay's quiet about him, he might decide to up the anty, so to speak, and make another killing, or a series of them to attract more attention to himself. Creepy Psychopaths!

[Danustouch]

I'd say it's a man. Early Thirties. As for military, or paramilitary training, I don't see it. He is obviosly an extremely accomplished sniper. However, I get a feeling that it's more likely that he DREAMED of being in the military, or being a sniper, and for whatever reason, was rejected. Probably his psychological profile didn't make him a good candidate. So he's trying to live out his fantasy of being a Military Sniper, or whatever, by doing this. To get recognition, and aknowledgement of his skill.

Edited to add: BeachWitch, As Phoenix Blue pointed out, the Tarot isn't a Pagan Symbol, specifically. As a matter of fact, it almost has MORE to do with Kaballah, or Gnosticism, then Paganism, in many respects. The Romani use Tarot, and nobody would dare to call them Pagan t their face:) So do many Jewish Mystics, And even many Christian Mystics that I know. So I wouldn't worry too much about people trying to link paganism with this. It's more likely, they'll associate it with Satanism, especially with the "I am God" comment. All in all, i'd say most rational human beings will simply say..."The guys' a fruitcake, and probably isn't religious at all. This was just some attention grabbing technique he used".

[Phoenix Blue]

It does pretty much rule out any link to al Qaeda, though. In that sense, I'm sorta relieved. . . it would've been too easy for one of their cells to attempt something like this.

[BeachWitch]

Of course you all are totally correct. I'm just still smarting after the lovely Falwell's comments post 9/11. Waiting for the proverbial shoe to drop.

A long time ago I played a game called "The Masquerade", I'm sure some of you are familiar with it.

Anyway, one of the clans of Vampires had a saying they stole from Anne Rice's book, "An Interview with a Vampire" that reminds me of this guys possible mental status:

"God kills indiscriminately, and so shall We."

[Old Witch]

My thoughts were that it's someone who doesn't really "know " about Tarot ... just wants to make people think "occult".......Probably wishful thinking on my part...................
:(

[Sequoia]

although this guy definately sounds like a freak. . . . my thought is that he really isn't thinking too deeply about the card meaning, but rather, the impact "THE DEATH CARD" will have on the general populace and media. Pagan references aside, to the layman, what does the death card stand for?

. . . could it be. . . *gasp* . . . Death?

sorry for the sarcasm ;) it's early and I havn't had breakfast.

And as for the vampire clan thing. . . let us hope not. . . *shudders*

Murder and violence like this suck anyway. . . and everybody but the killer gets blamed for it.

[Tammy Sullivan]

I kind of have the feeling that it is a teen gone bad. We are seeing so many it seems. :( But they do tend to use the "occult" to try to look cool. I just really hope that the press, etc. are not going to start blasting on all of us again.

[Azure]

I tend to think anyone who actually knew s&#t about tarot would recognize the fact that "Death" rarely symbolizes a literal death and would have chosen another card, like the 10 of Swords.

Given how good a shot this guy is, my guess would be that he's like Timothy McVeigh - former military pressured out by his superiors because of a problem personality profile, like Danustouch suggested. He may also be someone with a history of domestic violence or something like that, who is now acting out against everyone, instead of a specific personal target.

[Thistle]

My feeling is that the shooter doesn't know anything about Tarot, or the meaning of the Death card, and is just using it because of what it signifies to the layman.

As for what this loony is hoping to change, I hope it's himself!

[SnowStar]

10 of swords...*shudders* Generally speaking, I hate that card. It seems to turn up a lot in readings I do, though. The imagery on it is very disturbing to me, to say the least. At the same time, however, it's one of the cards I get the strongest feeling from. *shrugs*

Anyway, I'm OT...I heard about the death card thing...this guy is God, huh? I do believe he is mistaken...last time I checked, I was. ;) (please no one lambast me for my cheek...) I'm inclined to think that this guy was going for shock value more than anything else. As for profiling him, I'm going to add that I feel that he probably was raised in a very fundamental Christian home, and that now he is finally acting out against that in the most extreme way he can. Or possibly acting out for it. However the card and the message written on it leads me to lean more toward the former.

If he indeed knows anything about the Tarot and actually meant for it to mean change, it could possibly mean that he has an intent to make a change in the government...or something along those lines. Possibly we have an extremist of the Left or Right...or even an extreme anarchist on our hands. Just tossing some thoughts out there. Or maybe the guy is just a nutbag altogether.

[Flaire-FireStar]

I tend to think anyone who actually knew s&#t about tarot would recognize the fact that "Death" rarely symbolizes a literal death and would have chosen another card, like the 10 of Swords.

I agree... I think he chose DEATH because...well, the name and/or the picture specifically. Not that the actual meaning of the card meant anything to him -- which makes me think of movies where people cower from the Death card. :rolleyes:

But anyway, I certainly hope they catch this guy.... :dis:

[Witchy Cowgirl]

I was thinking the same as OW and some of the rest of you that he doesn't "know" anything about tarot.
But if he does, maybe the signal is that he's about to change his style, or city, or maybe start choosing his victims instead of random shootings?

But as Flaire said, I hope they catch him soon.

((((hugs to all))))

[materra]

Well this "reads" like a good mystery....Azure's observation reminded me of a novel I read and part of a TV plot....Guy was trying to murder his partner but to cover it up did a random shooting thing thru out the city. He made a mistake and got caught of course. But the real motive was to kill someone he knew. Plus this character left "clues" to point away from him...and toward another group of people entirely. Hmmm maybe he or she read this book or saw the TV show?

[Tiana_Ecarias]

I see it as both ways, he's young, mid-twenties, to maybe early thirties, but I'm not sure if it's a male or not.

As for choosing the Death card, perhaps it's what a few you have said, that it says Death onit, wand shows a skeloton. Or perhaps, he does mean for a major change.

Lookj at what he/she has already changed, people are terrified to go out of their homes to work or to school, or to even go to the grocery store. And of course, the ultimate change, death itself, there isn't a bigger one then that.

I don't think he was military, something just doens't hold true to that theory. Perhaps a hunter, and maybe some one who tried to join the police force, but didn't make, and is now picking off targets in a way to thumb his/her nose at the cops for not being able to catch him/her.

Every target he/she has picked is different, showing that he has no prefference, like Death and God, "all will die at the time that is said."

I don't remember who said that, but perhaps that's the sniper's line of thinking.

Over all, the person is whacko, and needs to be locked up before some one else gets killed or hurt. Unfortunetly, one more shooting will happen atleast before they catch the sniper.

Well, maybe not, I hope to the gods not, but you never know... *frowns*

Tiana_Ecarias

[Faery-Wings]

I agree that s/he used the Death card as a symbol of death and fear. But get this, AP news seems to agree with that. They reported:

Tarot cards, used mainly for fortunetelling, are believed to have been introduced into western Europe by Gypsies in the 15th century. Many tarot enthusiasts say the Death card usually does not connote physical death, but instead portrays a symbolic change or transformation.

It is pretty scary and I hope they catch the person responsible and soon. I can't imagine how scary is has to be, especially for the parents bringing their kids to school.

[Azure]

My guess is that this person is male - it is extremely rare that this type of killing is done by women - the style suggests it's a man under the age of 40. I would guess the tarot card is also a sign of age - that kind of symbolism is the kind of thing a young loser with his mind in one kind of fantasy world or another, would use (and yes Tiana, it may be a Fundamentalist inspired one too).

All I really hope is that they catch him.

[Flaire-FireStar]

As for choosing the Death card, perhaps it's what a few you have said, that it says Death onit, wand shows a skeloton. Or perhaps, he does mean for a major change.

Look at what he/she has already changed, people are terrified to go out of their homes to work or to school, or to even go to the grocery store. And of course, the ultimate change, death itself, there isn't a bigger one then that.


Considering the person IS a sniper and anyone can be targeted, I think those who live around the area have a pretty good reason to stay inside. I don't think that the sniper wanted that to happen, but it's common knowledge that when something like this happens that people are going to be staying inside. (Having lived in nature's backyard, and when bears were roaming around, nearly everyone stayed inside then too.....)

Back to the Tarot card, though... My brother got ahold of my Rider deck a while back and took out the Death card to show to me, just because it WAS Death. It just looks plain scary, and to people who don't really know the Tarot (I guess), it's a feared card. *shrugs*


Just my .02 (Canadian ;) )

[Old Witch]

I've been considering the poor people living? in that area............I know I would be scared to go about my daily chores........Worrying if your child is going to make it home from school.....if your husband will make it back from the convenience store.........If your parents are safe at the doctors............ And what the children themselves are thinking..........Life must be pretty intolerable around there now.............I'm so sad for all the area residents......and that's one BIG area.........

I bet that SOB is really getting one powerful kick out of it!!!!!

[Sequoia]

I heard on the news that one little girl's mother found a note on her pillow, that her daughter had written, that was basically her last will and testiment. *shudders* from a little kid!

On a side note - is anyone else really getting annoyed to hear "TAR-OUGHT" over and over? >.< tar-oh! tar-oh! not tar-ought!

[SerenityMoon]

it's like i told you, beth. in texas, the newscasters are probably saying:
"tha seriya'll killah left a tar-ott card at thay scene. them things is evil. yep."
-_-; bakas.

[BeachWitch]

Did anyone see 60 Minutes II last night? I was so impressed with Police Chief Moose. He was so real, and visably ANGRY at the situation.

A few times I thought he was going to start crying, but then I realized it was pure raw fury bubbling to the surface at this sniper.

It's great to see a real policeman in charge and not some smarmy politician!

[Tiana_Ecarias]

I didn't see him, but he used to be the police shief out in my area, but he left for greener pastures, so to speak.

ANyways, I can't believe that a little child wrote their will, they must be terriefied!!!!!

But, as horrible as this sounds, the child is also very pratical, because he/she doesn't know what will happen. But it still isn't good that the kid did....

Tiana_Ecarias

[Semele]

Well, the news I have heard they pronounced it correctly. However the media coverage is one thing that annoys the hell out of me. The very fact that just days before the shooting at the school the police chief was on camera encouraging people to go on with their daily lives and not fear for the children because thus far all victims were adults and there was no reason to think he would attack a child....blah blah blah....then BOOM..the very next school day this shit happens. Does this sicko really need ideas from the media?

Also last night on one of the special reports they were interviewing a man who runs some software that is designed to track possible patterns when there don't appear to be any. They showed a demographic outline and a map where all the victims were highlighted and then went on to explain that most serial killers strike within a certain distance from their home ...they don't want to be too close to home and risk being detected, but also don't want to get too far away and risk unfamiliar surroundings. Ok, I am sorry, but if I am the killer watching this crap, I am thinking to myself, Oh yeah well I will show you. I will take a trip and kill some people way out of that demographic region and then you will be really lost. Damn media bastards!

[BeachWitch]

Semele, that was on the 60 Minutes II broadcast.

And I hate to say it, but he did EXACLTY what you said!! It looks like the latest killing is in fact this maniacs work. So he drove 50 miles out of his "comfort zone" just to taunt the police - via the media!!

Hopefully the media will figure out that IT is impeding the case and causing people to die and they will back off! *sigh*

[Semele]

Originally posted by BeachWitch
Hopefully the media will figure out that IT is impeding the case and causing people to die and they will back off! *sigh*

It would be nice for a change...but highly doubtful! Wow..it was just after the broadcast huh...I remember they were breaking into our 10pm news saying that it was possibly his work. Sad.

[WtchyChick13]

They just announced that the most recent shooting in Virginia is in fact linked to the sniper. Scary. I'm sure it's a "home-grown" nut, but the true meaning of terrorism is at work here. To cause terror in the hearts of those just trying to live their lives on a day to day basis? Why? What the hell set this guy off? (Sorry, little vent there.)

Chief Moose, who is a great guy, did indeed shed quite a few tears the other day at the press conference when the 13 year old was shot. It was a bit of anger mixed with sadness and it was very touching to see such compassion.

I hope they catch this man soon. It's just got to stop.

[Haedis]

Apparently there was a pretty length message on the card but since its evidence they wont tell what the rest says. There may have been a note near the latest victem as well.

Yeah I'm pretty sure the person knows nothing about the Tarot either. Even if you WANTED to convey the message of "transition" you could probably find a less cliche card. And personally I do think the ten of swords (Rider-waite) is scarier, by far.

Why does everyone assume that this guy was in the military or a trained sniper? he could easily just be a hunter or something. its not very hard to hit a grown man in a chest with a gun that has a scope.

[Tiana_Ecarias]

As the chief of police said, "who is invesitgating this case, the police department or the media? It has to be one or the other, cause there isn't roonm for both."

Or he said something along those lines. He was pissed about what happened, because the media plastered it all over the tiv and radio.

Tiana_Ecarias

[MammaStar]

I'm concerned for my friends who live in that area...not too mention my Dad. He's leaving for our vacation house down in VA. The gas station that the last victim was killed at....one of the one's he likes to stop at, cause it stays open late. <shudder>

Also, has it only been Eshallet and I that have heard they believe its a man from I think SouthCarolina....he had his own militia outfit a few years ago, he's on the goverment's list "to watch", AND his wife (girlfriend, I forget) had reported him missing just about the time this maddess all started.

[Maggie]

Originally posted by WtchyChick13
They just announced that the most recent shooting in Virginia is in fact linked to the sniper. Scary. I'm sure it's a "home-grown" nut, but the true meaning of terrorism is at work here. To cause terror in the hearts of those just trying to live their lives on a day to day basis? Why? What the hell set this guy off? (Sorry, little vent there.)



I live in northern Virginia, and it is a little hard to know what to do. My daughter is coming home from college on break tomorrow, and was planning on going to her high school for the Homecoming game. That's been cancelled because of these shootings. I went to a Michael's today and I found myself watching for white vans. There actually was one driving up as I left, I have to say it gave me a start. On the other hand, I can't stay indoors and hide. On the third hand, I *do* live in northern Virginia. I've been wary ever since 9/11. On the fourth hand--I moved to this area back in 1976 and I'm a cold war generation baby. I decided that this close to DC there was no need to worry about any 'day after'........so in that sense this is just another form of worry.......

Maggie

[WtchyChick13]

I see what your saying. My thinking is, at least with something like a 9/11 event, it is usually a large target trying to take down as many as possible. With something like the sniper, you just never know where or when...plus, it's individuals who are being targeted. This is just a scary situation all around.

I've got family down there as well. They live in VA, my uncle works in DC (and we just got over almost losing him on 9/11), my aunt is a teacher and my cousin is old enough now to go out on his own at nite to work and to theater practice. I also have friends in the area as well including 2 exes that I still think about often.

My biggest thing right now is just the waiting. When is he going to strike again. Where. Why. And if he does...who is the victim.

After finally getting over much of the 9/11 fear, I hate the fact that there is one person who is doing this to the folks here all over again. Senseless violence makes me crazy.

Sorry, venting again. But it's 4:15am and my eyes are closing and these are the thoughts going through my head before I go to bed.

I leave you all with this thought: May we just get through another day without a victim of this man. And, may we catch him soon.

[Semele]

Originally posted by WtchyChick13

My biggest thing right now is just the waiting. When is he going to strike again. Where. Why. And if he does...who is the victim.


Well, If he is still paying attention to the media and taking his ques from them as it seems he has been...it could very well be at the Washington Redskins game. I caught two seperate newscasts this morning and they were mentioning the hightened security they would have at the game..not sure when it is. Ok...lets give the Ass a challenge!

[Azure]

He plays a lot like Jack the Ripper - playing the authorities based upon news media. If there was a longer note lost that police didn't turn over, then chances are good this guy will eventually try to alert the media himself, like the Ripper and the Unibomber.

Yeah, whoever mentioned it, he does sound like the SC militia nut-job, and also like the Olympic Bomber who they haven't caught yet Eric R Rudolph.

[Semele]

Originally posted by Azure
If there was a longer note lost that police didn't turn over, then chances are good this guy will eventually try to alert the media himself, like the Ripper and the Unibomber.


Or could we even dare assume that the police have managed to keep some aspect of the investigation out of the spotlight of the media? I admit it, I am glued to the news and await the next update in hopes that it will be his capture. It would be nice though for them to just announce that there are no new developments to be made public and the police are doing all they can and leave it at that, rather than bring in "experts" to glorify the guy and feed his frenzy.

[WtchyChick13]

Originally posted by Semele
Well, If he is still paying attention to the media and taking his ques from them as it seems he has been...it could very well be at the Washington Redskins game. I caught two seperate newscasts this morning and they were mentioning the hightened security they would have at the game..not sure when it is. Ok...lets give the Ass a challenge!

Well, being a Redskins fan myself (LdyStarlite--NOT A WORD), I am worried about the game. Not so much the game itself (although it would be good if the skins won!), but more the fans going from the parking lot to the stadium.

Last I heard, they are bringing in the National Guard to circle the lot as a sort of blockade. Poor guys! but hey need some sort of blocker because let's face it, with other events cancelled in the area the fans walking around are sitting ducks--so-to-speak.

[MammaStar]

My Dad left this morning. I told him he better call me when he arrives...just so I know he's all right. The last 2 incidents are all along the route he goes to his house down there. :ugh:

[Ravens_Tears]

The one thing that we can all be sure of is that this sniper is a very sick individual. I would venture a guess that this individual is an anti-social personality. Especially because of the "game playing" involved in this individual's taunting of the public and the police. I would also concur with the conclusion that the "Death" card was chosen for what it is perceived to be by the layperson, not what it truely means. It is quite possible that this individual was not even aware of the true meaning of the card themselves. That they also refered to themselves as "God" is highly indicative of an anti-social personality. And I am quite sure they felt like a god, laying in wait with an instrument of death and being able to choose indiscriminantly who lives and dies in that moment....

Anti-social personalities (sociopaths, psychotics.. in layman's terms) have no conscience. They thrive on attention and the "game". Clifford Olsen here in Canada, who murdered many children, is a prime example of that. The media here refused to give him the attention he sought during his last parole hearing ( which he will never receive parole, too bad they wouldn't put the bastard in general population and the tax payers wouldn't have to pay for his incarceration any longer!!). Unfortunately I think Semele is right in that the media has, unwittingly, given the sniper ideas. And I can't remember now who said this but they are right as well.. if the media coverage dies down.. they will kill again to have that kind of attention again. Untill they are caught, the sniper is a great danger because they truely have no conscience.

[aria]

watching tv the morning after the card was found, my first thought was "dammit, it's not enough that he's killing people, now he has to go and give a bad name to us with a tarot card!" especially since Death isn't really a bad card... *sigh* yeah, I'm thinking some skinhead white guy in his early thirties, and I'm really hoping they catch that prick soon

[gunner]

i'd say most of you are not far off the mark in your guesses about who this screwball will turn out to be though i do strongly doubt that he will be "an n.r.a. member", that's a typical media cheap shot, as if being "a gun owner" means that we are all on the trembling edge of going right round the bend. if anything n.r.a. members tend to be among the more civilised and law abiding members of our society, (also true of "concealed carry" pistol permit holders.) when he is caught (and he WILL be!) he will turn out to be as several of you have described him, an angry loner with a grudge against a world that never "recognised" him for whatever reason. as for his "sniper skills" they are no more than average if that. if i were to go sniping, (and i promise you i won't unless it's officially sanctioned) i would choose a much heavier weapon, a .30-06 or 7.62mm nato caliber. the .223/5.56mm nato weapon he is using is a "varmint gun" with low recoil that a 12 year old girl can shoot comfortably and with a scope sight you'd have to work to miss at 100 metres. while the media and police disclaimed any known "terrorist connection" so far it is still terrorism whether by an individual or a gang. in my private thoughts i will admit that when the police do track him down i hope he gives them cause to kill him, to deprive him of a court stage to have a "moment of glory" basking in media attention. better to just cap him and bury him.

[StormChaser]

Just from the ramblings i've heard and bits i've read, i get the feeling the more people talk about him the more likely he is to keep it up.. if he stops he loses attention, if he keeps going.. plays his card right.. he can keep the attention focused on him..
its really like a game...
sadly i dont see him getting "caught"

[Garnet]

I'm with StormTrooper. When the media people were yammering about how the sniper (thankfully) hadn't shot any kids, he went out & made a middle school student his next victim.
To the media: report the facts & stop speculating & opinionizing! (Unless you're going to say how the sniper hasn't gone to the middle East & shot at bin Laden).

[Haedis]

I'm willing to bet he's a seemingly normal guy with a wife and maybe kids. He doesnt shoot on the weekends and usually kills during normal work hours. Maybe instead of going to work he's off killing people, then comes home for dinner with his family in the evening. I tend to think its a mistake to assume he (or she perhaps) fits the profile of a "typical killer". I'd look for a 35 year old white male who's leading a double life as a sniper and a typical blue collar worker. But unfortunately that doesnt narrow down the suspects any.

[Tiana_Ecarias]

Haedis, good point. I've been thinking he's younger then mid thirties, like still in school, and comes home like nothing has happened.

But we may all be wrong and it might be some guy in his 90's, who just got pissed at the world and decided to shoot at people when no one would expect it.

TIana_Ecarias

[WandererInGray]

*sad sigh and shakes head*

May the killers be caught soon.

Goddess watch over those who have lost loved ones to this violence.
Goddess watch over those in the areas affected.

[MammaStar]

Okay, I'm no profiler or detective...but after mulling this over a bit. You think maybe this guy is an ex-mall employee. With FEW exceptions, all the incidents have been at a mall or the gas station. Disgruntled worker that just snapped and feels like terrorizing the area?

Dunno....I'm sure those looking for him have tried this possibility. I just wish they'd catch him and no one else had to be hurt.

[Old Witch]

You know, they say the van and/or truck are work trucks.......he doesn't kill on weekends........maybe he doesn't have a personal vehicle.........
I saw on the news last night a child walking in a parking lot.......zig-zagging.......and a woman sprinting to pump her gas......... These people are so scared ................I feel for them so..........

[Tiana_Ecarias]

Now it seems he's targeted an FBI agent, maybe he's trying to thumb his nose at the cops and FBI?

Ah well, he knows that he isn't easily found, and believes he'll never be caught....

One thing bothers me though, when they talk about it, I never get he feeling it's a man.... Especially since the sniper is so insistant about striking from a distance, like they don't want to see the person die up close and personal, just know that they hit the person and they died.

As they have said, most of the serial killers, they have record of, jhave been male, and they were up almost in their intended victum's face. Jack the ripper was probably the closest, but that is besides the point.

Perhaps this one is a woman, I tend to feel that a woman who was intending to kill would do just that, not care about the look on the victum's face, and all the other stuff. They're more interested in teh thrill of picking a target, firing, and hitting, and causing the death.

Eh, I don't know for sure, just that thought struck me today and it hasn't left yet.

Tiana_Ecarias

[Semele]

A woman...hhhmmmmm? Have there ever been female serial killers? I can't really think of any off the top of my head. Very interesting.

Gunner....Hey!! Where have you been? I was beginning to think you were the sniper!! J/K..I have missed you Buddy! I also gathered, through the media of course, that this was a fairly simple gun to operate, so it wouldn't necessarily mean a highly trained individual.

The other night at work we were talking about this and a coworker was saying how this would be a perfect example of terrorism. Supposedly there were terrorist rings in all states. What if this was just another plan to get attention and keep the country in fear. What better way to do so than with random shootings? However, I think if that were the case we would be seeing victims in other states.

[Haedis]

There have been quite a few female serial killers but I cant think of any high profile ones though. I kind of wonder why that is. Not that I'm rooting for this one to be female or anything and its seems odd to cry "sexism" about homocide but there are women who kill just as much and as brutally as men but it rarely makes the headlines. If it IS a woman though...she'll probably get away with it due to all this profiling bullcrap that basically insists the sniper is male.

The detectives are really getting to full of themselves, I think. On CBS I saw some guy patting himself on the back for correctly profiling David Berkowitz before he was caught. Well gee, due to the nature of the crimes its a pretty safe bet to say he was a 30ish white introverted male wouldnt you think? Thats a stereotype that if zeroed in on will often make us overlook the real killers. Not to get off topic but it seems eerily similar to the ethnic profiling of terrorists. Again, why do some people assume that if another major attack comes to America that the people carrying it out will be Middle Eastern? They certainly have caucasion supporters as well.

[Annika]

Originally posted by Semele
A woman...hhhmmmmm? Have there ever been female serial killers? I can't really think of any off the top of my head. Very interesting.



I really wish I could remember any of the significant details; however, I was watching the news last week while the cable guy was attempting to install a cable modem and get my cable internet working ( he was in my apartment for 4 hours before calling for help....too long for comfort in my opinion). Anyway, the snippet on the news was regarding the execution by lethal injection of a female serial killer. She'd been in prison for many years for killing several men. Her last statement before her death was very cryptic about retuning on June 6th.

Anyway, even way out on the West Coast, this sniper thing has people rattled. You just never know what can happen. Here's adding my thoughts and prayers that he/she is captured soon.

[Garnet]

There was a fairly high-profile case of a woman serial killer in Florida a few years ago. She was a prostitute who killed several of her customers. When she was caught she said that each one had abused her in some way: beat her, tried to get sex without paying, etc. Florida put her to death several years ago.
The last victim was an FBI 'support personel', not an agent, & there apparently isn't any reason to believe she was targeted because of where she works. Of course now the sniper has pissed off the entire FBI so now the feds are involved more than they were before...the sniper made it 'personal'.

[Tiana_Ecarias]

Now that people mention it, things about women serial killers float up to the top of my head, like the woman who was executed in Texas, being the first one to be exectuted in 100 years, if I remember correctly, but, it might of been shorter a little longer.

Anyways, to answer Headis, people are pissed at the middle east, and like it's been said in another thread about humans, they need to hunt something, and right now the main prey for hunting is those of Middle Eastern Ethinicity.

Anyways, here's keeping my fingers crossed that who ever the sniper is, they get caught...

Although, if it is a woman, and she is caught, chances are she'll get off lighter then a man, because she's a woman....

Tiana_Ecarias

[flar7]

well, looks like there are two people involved. Witnesses report
seeing two people in the van. and the choice of weapon makes
good sense, its simple to operate, deadly, projectile has very high
speed for its caliber, and it makes little noise compared to larger
caliber guns. and it is probably a male. 2 of them maybe taking
turns.?

[Gwion]

If the guy really knew anything about the Tarot, he would have chosen Ten of Swords or The Tower. I think it's just a red herring he threw in for the spooky factor.

[Semele]

The tower....great choice Gwion. I think that card pretty much sums up the world in general over the last few months. But after the dust clears and we can begin to pick through the rubble, we will find a lesson and begin anew.

[Illuminatus]

Blah, blah.

People get shot in Washington DC on almost a daily basis. But not THAT part of Washington DC, the slums and crack houses.

Everyone has to play the odds in this life. It's part of the game. If you go outside in the rain, the lightning might get ya. If you stay home, maybe it'll be a stroke. Maybe you'll step on a live subway rail, maybe a plane will crash into you, maybe you'll be mugged and shot.

Some of these can be prepared for and prevented. Others can't. If you want to stay sane, prepare for the problems you can, and don't sweat the rest. Sometimes, there's nothing you can do to prevent your number from coming up. Fickle Death is an equal-opportunity destroyer.

It's like the prayer : "Lord, give me the strength to strength to do what I can, and the sense not to worry about stuff I can't change" or something like that. They're good words, go with them!

- Illuminatus!

[Semele]

Originally posted by Illuminatus
It's like the prayer : "Lord, give me the strength to strength to do what I can, and the sense not to worry about stuff I can't change" or something like that. They're good words, go with them!

- Illuminatus!

OMG!!! I have never heard someone foul up the serenity prayer so eloquently!!:cool: But, yup they are good words .... go with em!!

I believe this is the exerpt you are trying to quote:

GOD, grant me the serenity
to accept the things
I cannot change,
Courage to change the
things I can, and the
wisdom to know the difference.

There is, of course, much more to the prayer, but only this part is popular due to it's widespread use in AA meetings everywhere.

[Illuminatus]

Originally posted by Semele

I believe this is the exerpt you are trying to quote:

GOD, grant me the serenity
to accept the things
I cannot change,
Courage to change the
things I can, and the
wisdom to know the difference.



I like my way better.

[Garnet]

Illuminatus is right...people get killed in D.C. on a daily basis. I believe it is still considered the most dangerous city in the U.S.
But people tend to be complacent about things that don't happen in their own neighborhoods, & the sniper is taking murder (also great fear with it) right to people's backyards.
Unfortunately, if the sniper was targeting an 'inner city' area, this would hardly be newsworthy.

[Tiana_Ecarias]

Not to sound cold-hearted(which is why I didn't point this out earlier), people all over the US are getting shot and killed, it's just no one either sees it, or really cares.

What's going on in DC sucks, because some one is deciding to play god, but I'm like a few of the people they have interviewed... "I am out here tpo prove to that SOB he or she doesn't scare me."

Just a little thought that bounced out...

Tiana_Ecarias

[Yvonne Belisle]

Well many female serial killers are in the medical profession. It is simpler and many think they are angels of mercy. I have put up a link to a crime site so that those who wish to learn more about serial killers can read about some of them. There are many male female teams as well. As to Jack the Ripper there was a female suspect at the time and the more information I read about those crimes the more I suspect that it was a woman.

As for these killings most have been near a Michael's store!!!!!! I work at a Michael's in New Jersey so it does make me very nervous.

http://www.crimelibrary.com/serialkillers.htm

[Semele]

Originally posted by Yvonne Thomas
Well many female serial killers are in the medical profession. It is simpler and many think they are angels of mercy. [/url]

HEy Hey!!! Watch it now...your gonna give me up!

Where is that angel smilie when you need it?!

[Maggie]

Originally posted by Illuminatus
Blah, blah.

People get shot in Washington DC on almost a daily basis. But not THAT part of Washington DC, the slums and crack houses.

Everyone has to play the odds in this life. It's part of the game. If you go outside in the rain, the lightning might get ya. If you stay home, maybe it'll be a stroke. Maybe you'll step on a live subway rail, maybe a plane will crash into you, maybe you'll be mugged and shot.


- Illuminatus!

Yes, they do get shot. But there generally is a reason. When an 'innocent person', ie one not involved in drugs or whatever, gets shot it does make the news even here. And yes, everyone has to play the odds--sometimes they suck. My youngest sister-in-law was killed in a high speed police chase four months after her wedding. One of those innocent bystanders everyone reads about......

The point here, for me anyway, is that this sniper is random and meaningless. He's not a force of nature, a terrorist or anything else. He's just out there killing with no pattern and no apparent reason. This area has already had enough of this, with the Sept 11th, the anthrax and constant watchfulness every time a 'heightened' terrorist alert is announced.

Personally, my daughter and I were shopping at a store across the street that Monday night. We had thought about stopping at the Barnes and Noble next to the Home Depot but decided we'd had enough and went on home. Due to the timing, we would have been walking across that parking lot right when the sniper was getting ready to shoot.

I intend to go back to that same Barnes and Noble today, just because. We have shopped at that Home Depot before and will again. This area is coping--however, I don't appreciate being told 'just live with it', along with the implication I am concerned only because he's targeting 'nice people' and not 'them'--whoever you mean.

Maggie

[Phoenix Blue]

So just because there's a reason, that makes killings less newsworthy or somehow more okay? **Shakes head** I'm not buying it.

[Maggie]

Originally posted by Phoenix_Blue
So just because there's a reason, that makes killings less newsworthy or somehow more okay? **Shakes head** I'm not buying it.

And how do you get this out of the two posts? You are confusing 'worthy of note' and 'newsworthy'. And where did I say any killing for any reason was 'okay'?

Maggie

[WandererInGray]

On CNN.com:

Police surround a white van at a phone booth. Man is taken into custody, no word yet if it is in connection with the shootings.
More details to come.

[Illuminatus]

Originally posted by Maggie
The point here, for me anyway, is that this sniper is random and meaningless. He's not a force of nature, a terrorist or anything else. He's just out there killing with no pattern and no apparent reason.

That's how Death is. He doesn't discriminate. He takes the old, the young, the sickly, the healthy, all races, all nations. Anyone can go, any time. There are no guarantees. The only difference between this guy and Death himself is that this dude leaves behind shell casings.

- Ill

[Maggie]

Originally posted by Illuminatus
That's how Death is. He doesn't discriminate. He takes the old, the young, the sickly, the healthy, all races, all nations. Anyone can go, any time. There are no guarantees. The only difference between this guy and Death himself is that this dude leaves behind shell casings.

- Ill

Um yeah. The gist of your post seemed to be asking why people were so upset and pretty much saying that people should just suck it up and get over it. In other words, there is no reason to be upset because people always die and we should just get over ourselves. I'm pretty fatalistic myself--but I certainly understand the difference here. I suspect you do too, but it's not in the style of Illuminatus to admit to it.

Maggie

[Phoenix Blue]

No, there's a lot of good reason to be upset. There's just no reason to panic, as panic doesn't stop a bullet.

[Garnet]

About 3:30 this morning (east-coast time) police arrested two suspects sleeping in a car at a roadside rest stop. It's a man & his 17-year-old stepson.

[Gwion]

I'm getting really sick of Mohammeds killing Americans.

[st0rm]

Gwion they are also americans.... dont forget that...

[flar7]

not his son, I think it says he was born in Jamaica...? maybe
he is a naturalized citizen, doesnt say....

[WandererInGray]

Like Americans don't kill other Americans every single day.

[Phoenix Blue]

**Shrugs** Still, that's one more ex-Army vet that's gone and committed an act of terrorism against the nation he used to serve. What the devil's up with that??

[Gwion]

the fact that he's American and a vet makes it even worse. Just wait til the next fresh round of Death Penalty debate because of this.

[Sowelu]

...been watching the news coverage on this all morning....

[gunner]

i suspect this guy's connection with islam is actually fairly tenuous, more related to farrakhan than mohammed al islam. given that the police have revealed the killer's alleged demand for "$10 million to be wired to a domestic bank account" he's relegated to just another extortionist although a particularly murderous and not very bright one. ("wire money to a domestic bank account"? and when he tries to access that account the cops would be on it like ugly on an ape.) we don't know yet that this guy is the actual killer though the current information released to the media looks hopeful, and if the killings stop it will be a fairly clear sign. i'll be back in a couple of minutes, i'm going to try to hunt down the "world news daily" story link and post it here.
-----------
and here it is;

http://wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=29395

"wnd" is usually fairly reliable once you get away from their christian bias into straight news, the editor/publisher is an arab christian but up front about it so you know where he is coming from unlike some of the "mainstream media" and you're welcome to disagree with him, i frequently do.

[Sowelu]

.....it's no wonder that people are moving up into the hills/boonies:mad:
My husband thought that there could have been a copycat:huh:

[st0rm]

Originally posted by gunner
i suspect this guy's connection with islam is actually fairly tenuous, more related to farrakhan than mohammed al islam. given that the police have revealed the killer's alleged demand for "$10 million to be wired to a domestic bank account" he's relegated to just another extortionist although a particularly murderous and not very bright one. ("wire money to a domestic bank account"? and when he tries to access that account the cops would be on it like ugly on an ape.) we don't know yet that this guy is the actual killer though the current information released to the media looks hopeful, and if the killings stop it will be a fairly clear sign. i'll be back in a couple of minutes, i'm going to try to hunt down the "world news daily" story link and post it here.

Well, if the killings stop that dosnt mean they got the right guy, maybe the killer got scared and decided to lay low for awhile?

[st0rm]

btw. I heard a rumor that wallmart is going to withdraw "actiongames".. is that true?

[Sowelu]

btw. I heard a rumor that wallmart is going to withdraw "actiongames".. is that true?

Hmmm...I haven't heard anything about that...I doubt it though.

[st0rm]

just found the article http://www.msnbc.com/local/knsd/a1359298.asp

[st0rm]

If the snipers didn't have violence in their life, I don't think they'd be as violent as they are. I agree wholeheartedly with Wal-Mart in taking the video games off. And I think they should stay off,"

ohhh... silly me, i thought liberal gun laws made it easier to shoot ppl but i was wrong, its video games...

[st0rm]

I dont think that books or games makes ppl violent but books can help ppl who wants to kill someone, apparently walmart's selling a sniper tutorial http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.gsp?cat=18748&dept=3920&product_id=1575435&path=0%3A3920%3A18748%3A18756%3A20798

[gunner]

"No, there's a lot of good reason to be upset. There's just no reason to panic, as panic doesn't stop a bullet."

very good point phoenix, and we've seen too much panic from the media during this. this killer is neither omnipotent nor omniscient, if this latest suspect is not the killer then the real one will make a mistake again, he has already made a big one, forced by his own ego. he has contacted the police and every such contact gives them more information about him. remember the "unabomber"? until his ego pushed him into demanding that his "manifesto" be published the cops had no idea who and where he was. shortly afterward his own family gave the clues that bagged him. this killer is not "bulletproof" in either sense of the word, he has made mistakes, he will make mistakes if he has not already made the mistake of sleeping in the wrong place at the wrong time as i hope he has.

[Semele]

Sadly enough my days and nights have been filled with countless hours of MSNBC viewing. I have been watching the entire thing unfold and have been quite intrigued by it all. I watched yesterday as they searched the home where one of the men was said to have practiced shooting at one time and I continued to watch until they released the names and vehicle description.

My favorite was the conference or statement made by Chief Moose...everyone was expecting him to come out and say.."these are the guiys help us find them" Which he did ask for help in locating Mohammed, but clearly stated it had nothing to do with the DC sniper investigation, but a federal weapons violation. He only briefly mentioned the possibility that he was with a juvenile..never naming him, even though reporters had already done so. Then he went right into giing a message to the sniper regarding recent communication attempts and demands. He stated that the sniper had asked him to say, "we caught the sniper like a duck in a noose."..uh..ok whatever.

Mol and I were discussing it and he said he didn't really think that Mohammed was the one they were looking for. I told him I believe it is, and the comment that he was wanted for another violation and not for the sniper stuff was to make the public leave him alone and get him safely into custody. Also for him to go ahead and deliver the message to him, after showing his face on T.V, just tells me that he and the profilers and psychologists who carefully phrased the message know exactly what kind of sociopath they are dealing with.

Was it completely naive to demand a transfer of money to an account or to open communication increasing the odds of being caught? Well, it depends on what your motive is in the first place. I believe that their capture took them by suprise and didn't go at all like they planned, but i don't for a minute think that they ever intended to "get away" with anything. I have a feeling they would have preferred a more memorable final stand..out in a blaze of glory so to speak.

[Sowelu]

here's what I've found so far.....
http://www.msnbc.com/news/816566.asp

[gunner]

"ohhh... silly me, i thought liberal gun laws made it easier to shoot ppl but i was wrong, its video games..."

the old argument, and not one i want to re-start here if i can help it. basically if someone intends to do evil they will find the means to do it and no amount of laws will stop them. several nations recently have enacted nearly complete bans on private firearms only to see crime, with guns, actually increase to unheard of levels as criminals found that their access to guns was unimpeded and the law abidng public was left defenseless against them. the response of the goverments involved has been to outlaw any other form of "defensive weapon" and penalize even bare handed defense as "use of unreasonable force" if the defense was successful. meanwhile, as i've noted before, i live in a place with no "gun control" to speak of and i live in peace and safety, with no fear of my neighbors. nor do i blame "video games", if that were the cause we would have far more than isolated incidents, my thought is that, if anything video games can be a vent for fantasies but i can't vouch for that since i don't play them.

[gunner]

given the description i've read of the "bushmaster" rifle (a copy of the colt "ar-15" semi-auto rifle my daughter owns ) with scope sight and bipod, and the chevy rigged with trunk opening and fold down rear seat i think your feeling is on target. i could wonder too if some of the latest "white van" warnings were deliberate misdirection by the police to keep the killer feeling overconfident since obviously they have been developing this information leading to the arrest for several days and did not release the "chevy alert" until they were fairly sure of themselves, if so they were right, the spotting and report leading to the capture came only hours after the information was released, and possibly proved the killer was not "following the news reports" as carefully as some of the media types liked to think or the car would have been abandoned and another one stolen to carry on with. like you i think they've got their man and when you figure they started from less than nothing only a comparitively short time ago they did a fairly good job of it after all.

[Semele]

Yep...one of my fav MSNBC advisors is former FBI special agent Chris Whitcomb and he said last night before this all really started to unfold that we would all be very proud of the job law enforcement has done in this case. He said it is exactly the kind of police work you see on tv shows. I am very excited to hear the rest of the story and for once give them credit where it is obviously due. I think Chief moose has done an awesome job and handled the critisism very well.

[WandererInGray]

*nods* The best police investigation is one where the media has no clue what's actually going on.

[gunner]

circa 1815 hrs, fox and msnbc both say the police have made a ballistic match between bullets recovered from the crime scenes and test bullets from the ar-15 rifle recovered at the rest area arrests of "john muhammed/williams" and his companion, so it looks as if they've got them cold. they're currently said to be arraigning them on "federal firearms charges" (given that has two bad divorces behind him he likely has restraining orders against him and that would trigger "unlawful possession of a firearm" under federal law.) but those are just to hold the perps while they build the murder cases and sort out what jurisdictions will get first crack at trying them.

[Tiana_Ecarias]

The 2 who have been arrested are definately americans, and the older man was in the Army, and the ORegon National Gaurd, which makes me some what ashamed and proud of my state.

Ashamed, because a man like him ended up in there(although, I shouldn't be surprised considering a few other people I know in the guard who are royal a** h***), and proud, because they taught him to shoot well, as well as the Army.

Anyways, when they said they arrested the 2 of them, I lmost couldn't belive it, it was WAY to easy and all the answers slid into place.

But then later I heard about how many near misses there were, it could of been stopped before it all began, in Alabama. And then, when they got a report of the white van, they forgot about the other witnesses seeing a dark suburban drive away from the scene as well, so yet again, they couldn't catch him before the rest of the killings happened.

AS for the randomness of his victums, from what the media said(and I only believe it so far,) is that they happened to come into his cross hairs, so he pulled the trigger.

His ex-wife and kid(or kids) live in DC area, and every person he shot is a parent, and does a l;ot of things in the community. Wether it's volenteering, or their job, or whatever, they are exetremely involved.

I find that to be a big coincidence, but, coinicedences happen, and maybe I'm to cynical to let things lie as they are right now. To me, they're still missing a crucial piece of the puzzle to nail these guys, but I'm not sure what.....

Tiana_Ecarias

[Maggie]

Originally posted by Semele
Yep...one of my fav MSNBC advisors is former FBI special agent Chris Whitcomb and he said last night before this all really started to unfold that we would all be very proud of the job law enforcement has done in this case. He said it is exactly the kind of police work you see on tv shows. I am very excited to hear the rest of the story and for once give them credit where it is obviously due. I think Chief moose has done an awesome job and handled the critisism very well.

I think law enforcement was great, Chief Moose in particular. This was an extremely difficult job. I also think that it illustrates another point--that we as the public have to participate in our own defense and support the police in their job. That truck driver actually *listened* and when he saw the car he called police, then he and at least one other trucker blocked the car in.

Regards, Maggie

And I hope now that the people involved can go home, sleep, and get re-aquainted with their families and friends!

[Tiana_Ecarias]

Cheif Moose was Portland OR police cheif, but had to resign under some what a black cloud for stating the truth about a few idiots, and people got upset and wanted him to leave.

He got the transfer, so he took it, and I am glad that he got the case work done and solved so well, that the "black cloud" on his name in my home area has been erased, and he'll only will be remembered for this....

Tiana_Ecaris