Cyberspace = Sacred Space?

[Mithrea]

As some of you know, I'm giving a lecture on Technopaganism on the 31st. There is an article at "Esoterica" right now about the question of sacred space and the astral and how that relates to cyberspace. The article, called "Magic and Cyberspace" is here: http://www.esoteric.msu.edu/VolumeIV/MagicCyber.htm I was hoping some of you might respond to the article with regard to your personal beliefs and opinions. Personally, I think it's an interesting article but I disagree with some his projections for the future. What do you think?

[Danustouch]

Very interesting article. Even before he mentioned it..i started to think..."Well..if consciousness creates reality, then when people gather online, and all envision their sacred space, then perhaps it can become sacred space". But...then I started to wonder how much of a "Group Mind" could really be created over the internet. And Group Mind is something relatively important to magickal workings. I think about the things that can pop up when one is on their computer. A computer crash. And instant message. A power surge, a screen freeze. Now..if interruptions happen in a circle in "Real Life", which is rare, such as someone needing to exit the circle for a coughing fit, or to use the bathroom, or whatever else, many paths will use an athame, or something to cut the individual out of the circle (creating a doorway) and then sealing it with an athame as well. However, when interruptions happen on a comptuer..wouldn't that break the energy in the circle rather suddenly, without any warning, and without the ability to cut them a doorway first? Little things like that stump me. To me, when I enter a Ritual Circle, with a group of people, in somebodys home, or outdoors, the environment is very important. At the home of the founders of my former circle, the entire living room was made into sacred space in one way or another on ritual nights. All technogadgets such as televisions, radio's, etc, were covered over with black cloth. I think the belief was that electronic gadgets interfere with "Natural" energy. The walls were hung with tapestries, incense was burned before, and during ritual, candles glowed in every corner of the room. In short, the entire environment was "Set" for worship. When one is on their computer, this becomes somewhat more difficult. Yes..You can all "Visualize" yourself in one room, one scene, one setting. But..at the same time, you are also somewhat aware of your PHYSICAL surroundings. Here's another issue. Suppose in the explicit directions/visual aids needed for a "cyber ritual" a specific incense blend is called for. What if the person out in California, has never smelled the same variety of incense that is being designated for use by the High Preistess, who lives in New York? Or what about chanting, and drumming, or things of that nature. Pretty hard to really FEEL the energy building, when you can't HEAR the energy building. No?

My point is, I believe that technopaganism may be something that can ENHANCE one's spiritual practice. However, for it to be the ONLY type of group experience they have, would seem to me to be lacking in the full spectrum of experience one can find in a real live circle.

As for the predictions for the future, I agree Mith. The people who love Nature, and have come to their paths because of the connectedness they feel with the earth, will always feel that way. I believe that eventually, technopaganism and natural paganism will blend together. Not diverge. People will find ways to utilize the net to ENHANCE their spiritual paths. And lets' face it. The Net CAN be extremely valuable to someone, who for instance, has agoraphobia, or a severe handicap which prevents them from going anywhere else to perform a ritual. I don't think it will cause a huge divergence as the author seems to suggest. I think it will become just another Tool in the Pagans Repertoire :)

[Raevyn]

However, when interruptions happen on a comptuer..wouldn't that break the energy in the circle rather suddenly, without any warning, and without the ability to cut them a doorway first?

Not really. In "real life" the circle is cast in physical space to act as sort of a "hedge between the worlds". In a Technopagan setting the circle might be cast in cyberspace, or of course there may be no circle at all ;)


I think the belief was that electronic gadgets interfere with "Natural" energy. The walls were hung with tapestries, incense was burned before, and during ritual, candles glowed in every corner of the room. In short, the entire environment was "Set" for worship. When one is on their computer, this becomes somewhat more difficult. Yes..You can all "Visualize" yourself in one room, one scene, one setting. But..at the same time, you are also somewhat aware of your PHYSICAL surroundings.

For some people "physical surroundings" aren't a hamper on what's going on. VRML type worlds can be used, graphics can be used a as a common model for visualization (much as you might do a ritual on the astral). As to "natural" vs "electrical" energy, I think of them as different forms of the same thing - somewhat like God and Goddess are part of All, I consider All to be energy, and "natural" and "electrical" to both be parts of it. I'm not sure whether a clear distinction could be made - after all consider electrical energy in our own brains.


Here's another issue. Suppose in the explicit directions/visual aids needed for a "cyber ritual" a specific incense blend is called for.

Presumably allowances are made - that incense isn't used, or that energy raising technique isn't used. Here, it is my understanding, that a model of magic surrounding the manipulation of energy is often used rather then that surrounding spirits, entities, etc. as in a spirit model, or sympathetic magic, mantras, and so on as in the psychological model.

Another model I've recently learned about is the Information model, involving "cybermagic" and projection of matrices, which is also likely a great component here - can't comment on that one though as I'm not sure I understand it fully :)

Looking to the article;


As I imagine, so I become - and this is the very essence of magic

Very true - sometimes the idea is to manifest an idea on the spiritual or macrocosm, and through the subconscious/astral create it on the physical/microcosm. Macrocosm and microcosm inextricably linked and so, the idea is to take from this other plane to the physical - not so far from going from the computer to cyberspace or vice versa.


And although techno-paganism seeks to embrace both of these dimensions, it seems to me that the main pathways within western magic will begin increasingly to diverge. Increasingly, I believe, a choice will be made between Nature and the new technology.

I don't agree here - people simply work from whatever models make most sense and work best for them. A choice certainly doesn't have to be made between the two.


As has been the case for some time now, magic in the twenty-first century will essentially be all about the quest for personal transformation.

Magic isn't all about the quest for personal transformation in the first place.

A quote used from Green Egg;


Paganism is a Nature religion, rooted deep in the Earth, honoring the Gods and Goddesses, feeling the heartbeat of the Mother Earth, loving and honoring all of Her creatures.

Paganism isn't a religion at all, but a group of religions - some nature based, some not.


natural magic and techno-cybermagic

These two "traditions" are far too simplistic. I prefer the multi model approach as seen elsewhere, and don't agree either of these have to be used exclusively.

[Mithrea]

Knowing how well I relate to people that I talk to on AIM and how often I will be talking to two people, who are often also talking to each other, I definitely see how a group mind could develop. As for interruptions, I do see that as being a problem within the specific rigid framework of a ritual. But the creation of sacred space isn't necessarily tied to ritual in my mind.

What is most intriguing to me about this article was the idea that "As I believe, so I become" is just as easy, if not easier to achieve on the Internet as it is in any other "space." This puts me at a sort of in between place on the Technopaganism spectrum because I don't do rituals online. I have no need for it as a solitary, nevertheless I rely on the computer heavily for many things that are related to my faith. I do consider myself a Technopagan.

I don't think that not working in groups or working in a type of altered group takes away from the experience at all. As someone who has always worked alone, I don't feel I am missing out on anything. In fact, I'm more convinced than ever that solitary work is the best path for me. Though I often wish for a community and crave that kind of relationship, I don't think I could ever participate in group ritual work. Not being in control of the emotions and thoughts inside the circle (which I wouldn't be in group work because of other people), is unthinkable and even a little scary to me. Therefore, I would not do rituals online but I still consider myself to be a Technopagan. So much of my practice would be significantly altered if I were to suddenly lose my computer.

The bit about the paths diverging is already being proven wrong I believe. People are in general non-extremist. We tend to hug the middle in all aspects of life. We will not choose one path or the other because it simply isn't practical. A blending of the two give you the benefits of both.

[Raevyn]

I would suggest even easier, as the media involved are far more conducive to creation - sound files, text files, websites, graphics, etc. can all be used to create an environment or focus that can be very temporary or long lasting. As we try to wrap our minds around the workings inside the computer or across the internet we realize that the "cyber world" can be thought of as abstractly as an astral plane, and results can be worked across it easily and with few materials (ie. don't need candles, herbs, tools, etc., just a computer and a connection to the 'net really)

A spell text file saved to the desktop, a mantra programmed into a screensaver, or a graphic created by a fractal generator, and as we work our own imagination into the creation it's not so different from using regular old visualization or available tools - but again the components are easier to find, and easy to store, move, and share, as well as destroy if the need arises.

Visualized goals or components can be made more tangible - for instance if I need to do a spell for a good interview, I can create a flash movie of a character representing the interviewer and interact with him/her to help me consider how I will react to questions and how I will present myself. The 'net is my prime springboard for creativity, so for me it was a very natural extension to use it in term of spirituality and religion and affecting my subconscious self.

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That said, I agree with everything else you posted :)

[Danustouch]

I don't think that not working in groups or working in a type of altered group takes away from the experience at all. As someone who has always worked alone, I don't feel I am missing out on anything. In fact, I'm more convinced than ever that solitary work is the best path for me. Though I often wish for a community and crave that kind of relationship, I don't think I could ever participate in group ritual work. Not being in control of the emotions and thoughts inside the circle (which I wouldn't be in group work because of other people), is unthinkable and even a little scary to me.

Well, personally, I've worked both as a Solitary, and in a Group. And while I PERSONALLY like doing group workings, better than my solitary practices, I can understand your view. I think it totally depends on the group. Not to get off topic. However, I was assuming that when "Online Rituals" is discussed, they are talking about Online "Group" rituals. Do people actually do Solitary Rituals Online? What would an Online Solitary Ritual Consist of? I'm asking honestly, out of curiosity.

For me, having been part of a wonderful circle of people while living in CT, and feeling the energy's in that environment, I am simply not sure that I could acheive the same level of group mind, or of spiritual enrichment, through an online working, as I have done in the past, with my real life group workings. To me, the "trappings" of a ritual really do help focus my mind, clear it, and differentiate between mundane time, and ritual time. To me, things such as incense, candle glow and warmth, sound (whether chanting, drumming, or the sound of my fellow circle members voices), is a very important part of the ritual. It's not that I CANT hold an effective ritual when alone, but rather that when I do a ritual WITH a group, and WITH these specific elements added in, somehow, it really DOES heighten my awareness, and the amount of spiritual energy I can send/feel. Certainly, I'm aware that this is not the case for everybody. Having been Solitary prior to my group workings, and now, as I'm living out of state, I understand that Solitary workings can be just as marvelous than group workings, and even more so, to some.

It's just that if you ask me, why I've never considered myself a technopagan, or joined an online pagan coven, or the misgivings I have for myself about Technopaganism (not stating that it's not a valid practice, simply that it's not one I can fully understand), the aforementioned reasons all come to mind. As with most things in Paganism, it's simply a matter of "What works for you".

[Mithrea]

I agree wholeheartedly Danustouch :) Whatever works best for you. I didn't mean that I knew of people who did solitary online rituals, I was only rambling. I just think there are lots of things that people do that would look to others as Technopagan but I've noticed that many people seem to pin it down to "Do I do online rituals?" If they don't then they say they are not Technopagan. At least one person that replied to my thread in JT has told me in IM that she actually opened a circle on her monitor once to send energy to a sick friend, but she still doesn't consider herself "Technopagan."

I think that an online ritual is only one small thing in a about 50 things that are Technopaganish and since I never do group rituals at all, then of course I wouldn't do them online. However, *I* say that I'm still Technopagan because of the many other things I do.

I don't know if I made that clearer, or muddied it up more :)

[Raevyn]

Solitary rituals online would be the same as solitary rituals *off*line. The only difference is they could be done in a created environment such as a virtual reality world - I could even imagine making a DHTML page with pictures of tools that you can move around and manipulate as you would "real" tools. It's only limited by your imagination :)

It reminds me of when I lived in a house where Paganism wasn't "allowed" or at least encouraged, and I did all my rituals on the astral.

[ReverendAJS]

I create and participate in online solitary rituals. I use Macromedia Director to Create space, draw energy in the form of RAM and numbers and electrons, I use tools of my own creation and I work rituals to enhance my belief system. That said, I commune with nature and the spirit of the Earth. For me, all is connected, and to ignore the tremendous symbolic nature of a computer ant the internet would be to ignore a large part of what nature is in the modern world. I am a Pagan performance artist and I have done online rituals in public as art. I consider myself a technoPagan bout I would never shut myself up in my room and use the computer as the only tool of my worship. There does not need to be a choice and a divison of practice, that is the beauty of Paganism, there are no rules. I find it simple and, in fact, neccesary to bring technology and nature into the same prctice. Thay are the same thing, after all.

[Raevyn]

Rev - haven't seen you in ages. Is your club still active or are you on to other things?

[ReverendAJS]

Nice to see you too! I'm sorry I've been away so long, I had to give up religion for personal reasons ;) but I'm back and consequences be damned!!!

No seriously, I had to delete the group because nobody cared and I got ticked off. I took my ball and went home. But it's back, new and improved (and empty).

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/technoPaganTribe/

So take a look, say hello, and mess with the establishment!

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regards,
Rev aJS

[Raevyn]

Thanks Rev, I did care but it was silent when I was on.. so I'll rejoin.