the degrees and training

[Smudge]

Hello again I just want to say thanks to all who answered my last question you were ll very helpful how ever I have come up with a new lot of questin now and it is this;
If you are a solitary witch dose these levels and dregrees apply to me or is it just when your in a coven
Also when do you declair that your a high pristess when your a sole worker or again dose this tile not apply to those who work alone and if it dose do you have to do some formal training like go to colage and train that sort of training!
Hope i'm coming overclear enough! well I hope you all may be able to help me out again you were all so good last time.

Many thanks and Blessings to all.

[Raevyn]

Originally posted by Smudge
If you are a solitary witch dose these levels and dregrees apply to me or is it just when your in a coven

Only in your coven, unless you're making up your own tradition that has them or following a path that requires them. Basically if you're just learning for yourself don't worry about them.

Also when do you declair that your a high pristess when your a sole worker or again dose this tile not apply to those who work alone and if it dose do you have to do some formal training like go to colage and train that sort of training!

Usually only in a coven, though some would say if you're alone you are your own priestess, the title does suggest some measure of work in a coven, teaching, and several years of knowledge. It'd be like saying you're a "third degree" when you're working alone and don't have degrees - though you might have decided to call yourself that it wouldn't probably mean much.

I just woke up so if I'm not too clear let me know. I'm sure someone else will answer as well.

[Lark]

Hi Smudge,

Think of a Degree as representing an acknowledgement by one's peers of where one is in terms of their spiritual journey within a specific Tradition or coven. The title implies that one has mastered a specific body of lore AND that they have grown spiritually so that they are ready to take on positions of greater responsibility within the community. The individual does not make the decision that they are ready to move on to the next Degree, that decision is made by their teacher/mentor and the rest of their group. For someone to take the title on themselves based solely on their own judgement would be considered an act of hubris as we are not always the best judge of our own actions.

As for the second half of your question...In Wicca, we are each considered to be our own Priest or Priestess. But a High Priest/High Priestess, is considered to be one who has a responsibility for the spiritual well-being of a group. The person who is designated High Priest or High Priestess in a coven or a Tradition is essentially taking on the role of clergy. They not only lead ritual, they counsel, they teach, they provide spiritual guidance to others in their community. To be a High Priestess or High Priest suggests that one has other Priests and Priestess who come to you for guidance. Again, it would seem rather pointless to take on this title if you are working as a solitary.

Really, titles only have meaning within a group such as a coven or a Tradition. What is important for someone who practices alone is their relationship to the Gods, not taking on titles.

Blessings,

-Lark-

[Jenett]

Hi there, just wanted to put in my 2 cents and my own experience.
If you are a solitary witch dose these levels and dregrees applyto me or is it just when your in a coven

I think, personally, they should only apply if you've had group or individual training that has conferred those degrees. However, if after getting that training, you go on to work as a solitary, then it's still fine to use the titles. (And a lot of people do this, actually)

I don't think they mean much outside a group context, though. (And because of the wide variation in what's involved in different degrees, even if you do enter another group, you'll usually have to go through a period of retraining and demonstrating knowledge and skills.)

Also when do you declair that your a high pristess when your a sole worker or again dose this tile not apply to those who work alone and if it dose do you have to do some formal training like go to colage and train that sort of training!

I agree with Lark's comments - I think that 'high priest/ess' is only meaningful in a group context. It implies responsibility for the group and a degree of commitment to the people in the group, and if you're solitary, that just isn't there.

As far as training, it depends. I can tell you my own experiences.

I'm currently a Dedicant with a Wiccan training coven. We have class twice a month, once for 3 hours, once for 6 hours (which has a 3 hour lecture/discussion part, and a 3 hour 'lab' part where we learn and practice practical skills, do guided meditation work, and other stuff like that). We have homework assignments to do, reading, and some daily/weekly things we're supposed to be doing on our own.

(We are also expected to turn up at full moon and Sabbat rituals, unless there's a good reason like illness or an irresolveable work conflict or something.)

We started classes last January, and will continue classes through the middle of this January, when initiations will happen for the people who are accepted for initiation. At that point, the group will start a new Dedicant class, which new Initiates are welcome to help with. We'll have some further training after Initiation, as well.

(The group I'm working with is a little unusual in that they take in more Dedicants than many groups do in a given year and classes are taught as a group - we started with 12 people, and we're down to either 5 or 6 right now.)

Three of the first degree Initiates are working on their Second degree work right now. They have class pretty much every other Wednesday, with a lot of other ritual work and homework. (The classes are with people from a few other local compatible groups)

We were talking about this last weekend, and a lot of their papers/written assignments have been running in the 25-30 page range for some assignments. (They have shorter assignments as well, and ones that don't translate into a lot of writing, but which do involve a lot of work.)

That's supposed to take them about a year or eighteen months to complete, with an additional six months or so of followup training after their second degree initiation.

My High Priestess has had a variety of different kinds of training, going quite a way back and is currently a Second degree (second degree folks, in the tradition I'm in, can run groups of their own, though generally under consultation with a third degree for reference). She'll be getting her Third shortly.

She's been leading our group for several years now - her desire to wait has been that she's felt she hasn't had enough counselling skills and other training that relate more to legal responsibilities of clergy, and that she wanted to make sure those were solid before getting her Third. She's also been doing the classes our First degrees are doing, but with some different assignments.

I hope that helps give you another idea of what can be involved. From my understanding, most formal training programs for pre-Initiates look roughly similar as far as time demands to what I'm doing, though can look very different as far as scheduling.

[Willow_Raindancer]

This is just me,
I have absolutley no sense of competition.
Titles, and all the grandure that go with it are just an ego trip to me. BUT that's me!
I don't begrudge anyone else that finds this important;)
I think of myself as a Priestess when I'm doing a ritual.
I am an actual Reverand of the ULC.
http://www.ulc.org/
I was ordained free on-line and it's a legal church of all faiths.
I don't officially go by Reverand though;)
Like I said, I think it's just an ego thing LOL!:D

[Jenett]

Willow_Raindancer: this "It's just an ego thing" response is something that has always honestly confused me. Maybe I see degrees in a very different way (actually, several different ways) and that's causing me the confusion, but I'm wondering if you can expand on that, maybe?

For myself (and apologies, this is long), here's how I look at it.

I think that there are several things that a degree system does - at least when it works *well* (Yes, there are badly designed systems, and ones that are abused)

1) It can be a way to ensure (again, when it works) consistent methods of education and training.

In the group I'm working in, your first degree is in large part a recognition of the fact that *other* people (not just you) think you've learned the basic skills to be a priest or priestess for yourself, and to stand before the Gods with pride in your knowledge and secure in your basic skills.

2) It allows you (when talking to people who know what's involved in that degree system: in Wicca, if you're working within a known group, that would be people who know that group) to quickly summarise your level of experience and training.

If I'm introduced to someone familiar with the group I'm working with as a Dedicant, they have a pretty good idea what I know and what I've had practice at. That can be very handy.

3) It's a recognition of the fact that a given person has invested a specific amount of time and energy in a specific kind of study. I see this as being comparable to getting a college degree.

Not having a college degree isn't bad (just like not having gone through a degree system in Wicca or anything else isn't bad) but having one does tell you something about someone's dedication to a particular kind of study, and something about their likely experiences.

4) When they're intelligently structured, different degrees are a way to celebrate progress, to give people something to feel proud of, and to punctuate their training. We're human. Humans like parties and events that punctuate their lives at some kind of recognisable intervals (like anniversaries, birthday parties, and all sorts of other things)

It's not a competition, because I'm not competing against anyone else. I'm doing this for me, and that's it. But celebrating the fact I've done something meaningful to me is worth doing.

5) In a number of Wiccan traditions, different degrees bring different obligations and responsibilities. Therefore, by *accepting* the next degree, you're committing yourself to those obligations.

Not everyone can or wants to do that - and again, that's fine. There are lots of different paths out there. But being able to say "X is a second degree, he's agreed to help teach, why don't you go ask for help." or "Y is a third degree. She's not a professional counsellor, but she can help put you in touch with one, or explain the religious bits of what's going on with you if need be." can be very helpful at times. (The obligations taken on vary by tradition, of course)

There are two other points that apply more to mystery traditions than to general Pagan work, as I see it, but which do apply to the group I'm working with, and which I want to mention.

6) In oathbound traditions (which the one I'm learning is), it allows other people in the tradition to know what they can and can't talk about with others.

For example, I know that there are some things I won't learn unless I'm Initiated - and some things in the tradition that I won't learn until 2nd or 3rd degree. In some cases, I know the outline of what those things are, in some cases I don't.

7) In traditions which take the mystery/oathbound approach, it's quite common for the Initiation process itself to create change in you. Not just the process of working towards the Initiation, but the actual ritual of Initiation itself. (And this, I am told, can apply to 2nd and 3rd degree Initiations as well, in at least some traditions).

In such traditions, there's also often an element of Initiation linking you into the group's energies and groupmind in a specific sort of way - and again, it's useful to know who has had that done, and who hasn't.

I don't know if this helps explain some other options than the 'It's an ego trip' thing. If it's an ego trip, well, my being proud of my bachelor's degree, my work on my Master's degree, my professional pride, my upcoming first marriage anniversary, and all the other things I've achieved are all pure ego and useless too, and I don't think that's true.

[Willow_Raindancer]

Let me word what I mean a little different.
If someone finds titles important to them, I'm all for it (for them)
not for myself.
I'm a Solitary and I claim no title, for whom would I claim it to?
A stranger to impress them?
That's what I meant by ego trip.
If your a member of a Coven, I can see where a title may be useful. It could distinguish your educational experiance within the Coven.
Anyone outside of your Coven would not know the Covens title stucture and your title would be useless.
(unless your kind enough to explain to them);)


I think I'll call myself High Grand Poohead

:D

[BrotherKrys]

Wooohooooo.....

Degrees degrees.... Got to love em. Here is the problem in the Neo-pagan world of education and titles. Imagine a world where, on any given day, you could go someplace to meet peers of similar age, and you meet someone who is dumn as nails and they say "I have a Doctor's degree and it only took 2 weeks!" and then you meet someone who has been in school for many many years and they say they are only a freshman.

This is the pagan community in a nutshell. There are very few standards across the board. I have met proclamed 3rd degrees who gained their rank by performing a ritual that required sleeping with the High Priest/ess... and I have met others who have spent easily over 5 or 6 years as a 1st degree, who meets with his/her coven twice a week for several hours at a time and who leads circle and teaches the path on a very regular basis.

The degree system doesnt mean squat to anyone but YOU. It is an initiation. Closing one door and walking through another. And it marks a recognized elevation in education, participation, and spirituality. The degree is for the individual to work towards as a personal goal and motivator and is an HONOR not a TITLE or RANK or POSSITION. It is an honor of ones spiritual accomplishments by their peers.

Above and beyond all else, I do not disclose my "degree" to anyone for if I cannot walk-the-walk then there is little a title is going to do to help me. And I emediately distrust anyone who introduces themselves as "Hi I am witch person and I am a third degree.."

Just remember... Teachers teach... degrees, titles and ranks dont teach anything at all.

I love and light...

BrotherKrys