Energy Streamers

[qidrogreevat]

Hi, would having VISIBLE energy stream after a wand\staff when waved be a possibility? Or is it just some fancy thinking from a novel of a wizard?

None of my friends believe in magick, though, they are interested in it. And I was wondering whether I could do something like that to prove that it worked.

Thanks in advance.

[Arzhela]

Personally I do not think that it is at all possible, unless you have a laser beam on the end of your wand:T

Some of the folks who do a lot of "psi" work would say that something like that is possible, but they'd probably also say that it would take a lot of time and work before you could do it.

[Pan]

Hoo boy...

First, if you need to prove that it works.. they don't believe in magick like they claim.

Second, it might be possible to do that in one way or another.. but I've never seen it. Just because I've never seen it doesn't mean it can't happen.

I'm just saying that if you need to prove to them that magick is really real and it works by waving a wand in the air with coloured light streaming after it... they need to watch a movie. :T:T:T:T

[qidrogreevat]

lol, I just need something impressive, that they can't say wasn't magick, I've been working on psychic abilities for quite awhile, telekinesis in particular. I'm going to show them that, once (or if) it works. Now, I know it's not magick, but they don't need to know that ;)

[Raevyn]

Magic done to prove it exists, in my experience, outside of movies *never* works. The people around you who don't believe it manifest negative energy that makes the magic not work. Their belief that it doesn't work is more powerful, I think, then your need to do neat tricks or prove yourself. :)

As to a visible stream - visible on the astral or visible to those sensitive to it? Yes, very possible. But physically visible to non believers? I'd say no.

[qidrogreevat]

I never thought of it that way. I always thought that it wouldn't work because you'd be too anxious, and so the spell wouldn't have as much belief behind it.

I'm just sick of getting told I'm going to hell from one of my friends. He doesn't do it in an intrusive way, but I can see it in his eyes, and on occasion he does say it out loud. Also, another of my friends just believes what I'm saying is plain crap.

Getting told you're going to burn in the 'burning lake of eternal sulphur' is that comforting, even if you don't believe in heaven\hell.

One of the things I don't get about Christianity, is that even if you're a perfectly nice person you're whole life not harming a person\thing BUT you don't believe in the one god, you go to hell anyway. Seems pretty stupid reasoning to me.

[Raevyn]

Well that could be too (the anxious bit), I imagine.

As to prejudiced people, their judgment is I think often far removed from Christianity - I just see that God in a different way. I bet he'd be ticked off if he saw how people try to blame him for their judgment ;)

(edited because I mispelled a "their" :rolleyes: )

[BrotherKrys]

Well holy smokes.... It would probably help if we had a workable definition of magick somewhere here. That way you would know exactly what it is that your trying to do.

If your looking for light shows, or smoke or just pulling rabits out of hats your search on the internet probably had a slight miss spelling... you would be looking for "MAGIC". A surefire way to impress your friends and win over the ladies! I would recommend David Blane, David Copperfield or heck, just change your name to David and play with cards.

However..... if your in any way serious about this difficult path that many of us travel then sit a spell and listen carefully.

Magick is the art of meshing your will with the inner workings of the world arround you to create change.

When someone asks (or tells) me to prove that magick works, I ask them to prove that Prayer works. They cant... I mean, they can say that they prayed for something, and that what they prayed for might have happened but it is always something that could have happened naturally...

So is it a real thing. Well lets break it down.

Law number 1 ) All things are made of the same stuff.... (you think thats air your breathing?). Thats right... your desk, your computer, the grass, the tree outside, your neighbors dog... its all the Same stuff... your but a few atoms different than most of the stuff arround you. So you have this massive amount of "stuff" that has many different forms all working within itself.

Law Number 2 ) Because we are all made of the same stuff, we have a connection to the stuff that is both near and far from us. Wooohhw.... So like when your thinking about someone and they call not moments later... what is that.. could this law be leaking into your private life...

Law Number 3) because we are all connected, we can have an effect on the stuff either near or far from us. This is the Ethreal AT&T. The subtle spiritual Reach-out-and-touch-someone. This is where ones sprituality and faith really hit the pavement. Be it if your praying to Allah/Jesus etc, or casting a spell, there is WILL that is directing your thoughts, motions, words and most of all EMOTIONS. And that is key to connecting to this big switchboard in the sky.

Law number 4 ) That which is the Divine, is not separate from this stuff because this stuff makes up everything, therefore the Divine is a part of ALL this stuff and is a means for making change on the subtle realms.

So then.. what is the difference between Magick and Prayer.... Simple
- Prayer - Is the believe that an EXTERNAL divinity is listening and making changes to the world arround you as a direct result of your request

- Magick - is connecting to the divine which is a part of all things, and aligning your will with that to effect a particular form of "stuff".

However the downside is that, very much like prayer, the results are usually subtle and there is really no way to connect it to you... I.E. Your friend is sick and you do a spell to invoke healing energies and envision your friend feeling better and being active and healthy. The next day your friend makes an "unexpected" full recovery. Did you do it? maybe part yes, maybe not at all, maybe this was really meant to bring you and this friend closer .. who knows... We call it the grand "ironic coincidence". That is our magick.

There are scores of books on the subject, but what you have to keep in mind is that Magick, as defined above, is very much a part of the natural world, as is the divine. The real use of magick is not what you can do to impress others, but what you can do to make yours and other peoples lives easier and productive.

Its not glamorous, its not an easy path to walk but it is a wonderfull travel and the rewards are that of self discovery, love and an inward strength that can inspire others.

[Raevyn]

Originally posted by BrotherKrys
Magick is the art of meshing your will with the inner workings of the world arround you to create change.

There are many people who don't think of "magic" and "magick" as you do - as in the former is stage work and the latter is "natural" or "real". I happen to be one of them. Some people use the different spellings interchangeably, as they were used in the beginning, and some use one or the other.

It is well known that they were spelled both ways even in the dictionary. Crowley popularized the latter spelling "in order to distinguish the Science of the Magi from all its counterfeits." ("Magick", eds. Symonds/Grant, p. 45 note).

"Symonds and Grant contend that the 'k' is a conceit of Crowley's and that it is related to potentially dangerous ("demonic and chaotic") energies, as well as life-oriented symbols such as 'khu' and 'kteis', for which they say it stands, "the complement to the wand (or phallus) which is used by the Magician in certain aspects of the Great Work."" ("Magick", p. xvi.)

"Aleister Crowley probably got tired of constantly explaining to those he talked to that he was interested in true magic, not stage illusions. So he took to spelling occult magic with a "k" to distinguish it from stage magic. This works fine on paper, for those who understand the distinction and do not assume that Crowley simply didn't know how to spell, but since the "k" is silent, it is not of any use in speaking about magic."

"I will continue to spell magic without the "k" for as long as it makes reasonable sense to do so, with the hope that my readers are intelligent enough to understand that Crowley's spelling of the word with a "k" was merely a change in convention adopted by Crowley for his own use, and has no greater meaning or power attached to it. "

( http://dontyson.tripod.com/answer4.html )

"Symonds and Grant, in their introduction to _Magick_ (_Book Four_, Parts I/II/III), "The Anglo-Saxon *k* in Magick, like most of Crowley's conceits, is a means of indicating the kind of magic which he performed.

K is the eleventh letter of several alphabets, and eleven is the principal number of magick, because it is the number attributed to the Qliphoth - the underworld of demonic and chaotic forces that have to be conquered before magick can be performed. K has other magical implications: it corresponds to the power or *shakti* aspect of creative energy, for k is the ancient Egyptian *khu*, *the* magical power. Specifically, it stands for *kteis* (vagina), the complement to the wand (or phallus) which is used by the Magician in certain aspects of the Great Work." Page xvi."

"Crowley spelled "magick" with a "k" to distinguish it from stage magic. Hasn't anyone read MAGICK IN THEORY AND PRACTICE, surely the most widely reprinted of his books? He used the new spelling to distinguish his system from everyone else's Golden Dawn magic, which he thought had given the whole enterprise a bad name through its various idiocies. This deliberately archaic spelling had diddly-squat to do with stage magic, and everything to do with Crowley's hatred of his contemporary competitors. "

( http://www.angelfire.com/on3/ulysis/whatsmagick.html )

(incidentally, my intention here isn't to say someone's right or wrong, it's to point out that there are different views on this subject and I don't think it's acceptable to just go "oh this one means this and that means that")

[Raevyn]

Originally posted by BrotherKrys
So then.. what is the difference between Magick and Prayer.... Simple
- Prayer - Is the believe that an EXTERNAL divinity is listening and making changes to the world arround you as a direct result of your request

- Magick - is connecting to the divine which is a part of all things, and aligning your will with that to effect a particular form of "stuff".

I also wanted to comment (again, not to argue or point fingers, but as a point of interest), I don't agree with you here either. I consider prayer to be magic, I don't feel they are exclusive.

You mention


Magick is the art of meshing your will with the inner workings of the world arround you to create change.

and even in the wording here you aren't making magic exclusive from prayer - "the inner workings of the world around you" could easily include Goddess and God, especially as nature archetypes.

I like Crowley's definition of magick best - "the Science and Art of causing Change to occur in conformity with Will". This is of course assuming one understands that Will isn't "do whatever you feel like doing" but understanding there is a deeper truth, there is a greater means then what we see now, and we should try to find and achieve it.

[BrotherKrys]

Ok... where it wasnt obvious, understood, or writen in fine print let me first lay down this bit of undeniable fact before I go any farther.

ALL OF MY WORDS ARE MINE. YOU CANT HAVE THEM. THEY ARE MINE AND ONLY MINE. ITS MY OPINION. NO BORROWING, STEALING, ADOPTING OR PLAGERIZING. You may not assume that my words are everyone elses words. That would be in direct violation of the bold stuff at the top. You may not incorporate my words into your personal beliefs ver-batum (<- I spelled that wrong too!) since that would also violate the bold stuff above. Do not expect that anyone is going to completely agree with what I have to say, IN FACT No one is allowed to Completely agree with what I have to say because (reffer to bold words above) that would mean that it is your opinion too and that is in direct violation of the above bold words.

There... so glad we got that out of the way. Now on to the constructive criticism. Yes, I make no bones about the fact that that is what I believe (please reffer again to the Bolded words above). Just as I dont complete agree with what you said.

On the nit-picky matter of spelling, it is, in fact, not unusual at all for someone to take a word, and then spell it a little differently in order to sort of capture a new meaning. I mean come on, do you really think that Crowley changed the spelling of "magick" because he was tired of explaining that it wasnt slight of hand tricks. Do you think he was out talking to his OTO buds and saying "So I was out last night endulging in our ritual sex acts and my drug addictions performing magick...Ohh its magick with a "K" that is...."

No, its called clever marketing. In fact there is another word floating arround we can aclaim similar examples to... ohhh say WICCA! Yes kids Wicca was once spelled Wica and even Wicce (old english) however once Garderner got a hold of it he wanted to portray the fact that his form was of the old ways, but of his ways as well so he changed the spelling a little. Oddly enough Gardner and Crowley where buds for the last few years of Crowleys life. Coincidence??!

And as far as the "k" thing representing the 11th letter which represents control over demons... Well what about the extra "C" in "Wicca". Do you think there is some significant relation there?.. it is the THIRD letter and we ALL know that the number three has WAY more magickal significance than the number 11. So then why not use the "C" instead of a "K" in Magick? I dont know.. somehow "Magicc" just doesnt have the same ring to it.... visually that is. Or what about 7... Anyone who knows Crowley knows that he is a big septagram loving kind of guy. Why not the seventh letter which is a "G"... he could have spelled it Maggic! Once again, not as pleasant to say I guess.

I am not going to argue the point I just think that there are alot of people willing to look WAY too deep into a shallow pool.... The matter of fact stands that while its important to understand the roots of the words we use, its more important to understand how they are used today and regardless of Crowleys quasi-shadey past, his definition of "Magick" and its respelling is still widely agreed with by a majority of pagan authors and teachers.

However if you where to say you do "Magic" I would ask you to do a cool card trick for me.

[Raevyn]

Of course I understand and respect that was *your* opinion. However, people who are new to Paganism, etc. and don't have years of experience don't know what you say is largely your opinion. Maybe I misread and if so I apologize, but I didn't see any indication of "this is how I feel, ____, but others feel differently". I in fact saw a very emphatic "maybe you should open a dictionary or do some research, because you don't know what you're doing". My intention was not to say "you're wrong", but to point out to others that that wasn't the only answer, and certainly isn't mine even though I *have* done research.

As to why Crowley spelled it that way, you picked out one part of the many quotes and links I cited. You'll see the one mentioning stage magic was one out of five I believe? No I don't believe it had anything to do with stage magic at all; in fact that was entirely my point.

As to the k and 11, it does have magical significance for people, and certainly more so then being "the third letter in the alphabet and ooh 3 is special" like C (and no, I'm not going to explain it because that's way out of the scope of this thread, though anyone is welcome to do some research and will be able to find it out for themselves) - I'm actually surprised you tried to trivialize it like that - even if you don't understand why it's usually courtesy to respect that others often do have their own reasoning. I also don't see how adding a letter here and there is good for marketing anyway, unless you mean using the k to signify "special" magic as opposed to stage illusion which wouldn't surprise me, though then that's more a point for using it that way being inappropriate isn't it?

I don't think it's "more important how it's used now" at all. One cannot ignore the history and origin of words and beliefs because "they don't like it that way anymore", nor can they trivialize the way words and terms developed, just because it's "easier that way" or "shallower". Another example is heathen; the meaning of that has changed and people use it for different reasons - it's not so much important to use it one way or the other as to understand why others use it, and why one might choose to use it or not use it themself.

It's important to recognize that there are many reasons for doing it one way or the other, so people can make their own decision and choose their own path in an informed way. We'll have to agree to disagree, however at least now someone reading the thread will see why and understand their own belief a little better.

P.S. You shouldn't assume I'm a "Crowley fan" merely because I understand Crowley had an impact on magic and Paganism. If that were true I'd also be a Gardner/Sanders/Valiente/Farrar/Fortune/Starhawk/etc. etc. etc. fan