Morrigan a Goddess or the name of a group

[Nuadu]

What is important is merely that the Morrígan, Macha, Badb and Anu/Danu are virtually interchangeable names

Seren posted someones dissertation on the Morrigan in Badb goddess of the week thread. It had some interesting ideas. The author believes Morrigan isnt a goddess just a name for a group of Goddesses but she doesnt say all gods are one god. That Morrigan might not be a Goddess is something I havent seen online before purely because of her commercial popularity.

http://web.archive.org/web/20011204120238/http://members.loop.com/%7Emusofire/diss/

What do you guys think is the morrigan the name of a group or a single deity?

(edit: I wouldnt stress if you cant get through the link my mind turned to muck reading it and Im familiar with everything in the dissertation. An opinion would be great!)

[Seren_]

Both? Sometimes the name is used as a title (usually referring to a group of three goddesses), or it can refer to a specific goddess as in The Tain or The Second Battle of Mag Tuired.

[Nuadu]

Both is an interesting Idea. Would you say from a soft polytheist point of view that The three goddess mentioned in the dissertation as Macha Badb and Nemain are aspects of the Morrigan?

[Agaliha]

Hm.

I thought it was a title, which is why it's The Morrigain and includes the three goddesses within it. Someone corrected me here before that it was a title, not one goddess, which is what I thought in the beginning. I also found that in a lot of places on the internets.

Is that incorrect?

[Faol-chù]

Hi Nuadu...

I would say that it is BOTH 'a group' and a single entity...

In a similar fashion to the way the trinity of God as explained in Catholicism is both 'a single entity' and 'a group'.....although there are different facets to it.





I thought it was a title, which is why it's The Morrigain and includes the three goddesses within it.

If you will take note, MOST Irish deity names are TITLES.

[Seren_]

Both is an interesting Idea. Would you say from a soft polytheist point of view that The three goddess mentioned in the dissertation as Macha Badb and Nemain are aspects of the Morrigan?

If you're asking me, I don't know how to answer that. You'd have to ask a soft polytheist :p

I would assume the answer would be yes, they would be considered aspects - by some soft polytheists at least. I've seen the Morrigan mentioned in terms of being a 'triple goddess' (as in maiden, mother, crone), or else simply three different aspects of the same goddess, but maybe someone could clarify on that? There are plenty of threads about the Morrigan and maybe there's something in there, it's been a while since she's been discussed on the boards, I think, so I can't remember.

For me, they're separate goddesses, but equally, as Faol-chú notes, the names of deities are often titles and names are incredibly important. The Dagda was known by many epithets/titles (for example) so even though I see Badb as being distinct from the Morrígan (as the lore indicates, references to her are particularly concentrated in the Cork area, IIRC), I don't discount the fact that Badb could equally be an epithet/title for the Morrígan when she appears in a certain context in some of the tales, a name which may have signalled something important to the people hearing or telling the tale.

[Nuadu]

Thanks for all the replies :)

I would be scepitcal of anyone that will definatively correct someone. Thats a miserable thing to do to someone for me there would have to be a personal reason to do it. What am I the swami of paganism :fpraise:

I would be of the opinion that Morrigan is both but rather then 1 deity with 3 aspects in a soft polytheist point of view I think its a name of a group in a time when christianity had more of a monopoly on the written tradition like when the written trad was already established and poets werent needed to retell the stories to the monks... AND a name of the goddess in the earlier pagan society.

In christian compilations like the book of invasions and compositions like the Dindshenchas the three morrigans and morrigna is used as a title. The plural wouldnt be applied to a single deity and the dissertation there lists the various Goddesses given under the title.

In the origional context I would say it applied to a Goddess why else would she appear as singular in the myths expressing a seasonal motif but not in others. I also couldnt discount the fact that the well educated pagans here like Lora O'Brien the only Irish pagan to publish a book on Irish paganism say they have cultivated a relationship with morrigan specifically by going to the cultural sites associated with her.

Another question for me is: was there a morrigan warrior cult if there was no insular evidence for morrigan being part of a war goddess cult

[Nuadu]

If you're asking me, I don't know how to answer that. You'd have to ask a soft polytheist :p

I would assume the answer would be yes, they would be considered aspects - by some soft polytheists at least. I've seen the Morrigan mentioned in terms of being a 'triple goddess' (as in maiden, mother, crone), or else simply three different aspects of the same goddess, but maybe someone could clarify on that? There are plenty of threads about the Morrigan and maybe there's something in there, it's been a while since she's been discussed on the boards, I think, so I can't remember.

For me, they're separate goddesses, but equally, as Faol-chú notes, the names of deities are often titles and names are incredibly important. The Dagda was known by many epithets/titles (for example) so even though I see Badb as being distinct from the Morrígan (as the lore indicates, references to her are particularly concentrated in the Cork area, IIRC), I don't discount the fact that Badb could equally be an epithet/title for the Morrígan when she appears in a certain context in some of the tales, a name which may have signalled something important to the people hearing or telling the tale.

Sorry I didnt mean to make an incorrect assumption there :)
Ive met some soft polytheists here that argue the both is true because those deities are just regional variations of 1 greater god.

I like the idea that the great queen would apply to anyones sovereign goddess because in a tribal context their sovereign deity probably was the greatest deity and that badb could be the sovereign in her role as protector of the tribe in battle. I hadnt thought of that before and I try and stress the tribal nature of our pagan society as much as possible. I really appreciate that idea I'll be mulling it over for a fun while thanks Seren :hahugh:

[skilly-nilly]

I think that 'The' Morrigan is an individual who is the leader of a group of three (ish) Beings and Her title is The Morrigan, as in 'The' meaning 'paramount', 'titular head', 'chief'.

Her actual name might be Morrigan as well as the name of the group named Morrigan, but I don't think it's attested to in lore. I think that her pre-leadership name might be Anu, as in 'the paps of_', which are said to be connected to Her.

Isn't there some lore as well, Seren, about Badb being a group as well?

[_Banbha_]

From the AKA Mary Jones on The Morrigan: (http://www.maryjones.us/jce/morrigan.html)


Morrigan is one of the most complex figures in Irish mythology, not the least due to her genealogy. In the earliest copies of the Lebor Gabála Érenn, there are listed three sisters, named Badb, Macha, and Anann.1 In the Book of Leinster version, Anann is identified with Morrigu, while in the Book of Fermoy version, Macha is identified with Morrigan.

From a poem in the LGE:

Badb and Macha, greatness of wealth, Morrigu--
springs of craftiness,
sources of bitter fighting
were the three daughters of Ernmas.



We also learn that the three sisters Badb, Macha, and Morrigu are also sisters to the three goddesses of the land, Eriu, Fotla, and Banba.[2] However, in one text, Anann--here called Ana--is listed as the seventh daughter, identified as the one "of whom are called the Paps of Ana in Urluachair"--the two mountains south of Killarny called "The Breasts of Anu". In a yet a different version of the second redaction, Anann is again identified as Morrigan, and for her the mountains are named.



In the third redaction, her genealogy is given as "The Morrigu, daughter of Delbaeth, was the mother of the other sons of Delbaeth, Brian, Iucharba, and Iuchair: and it is from her addtional name "Danann" the Paps of Ana in Luachair are called, as well as the Tuatha De Danann." Now we have Morrigan identified with Danu, mother of the gods, and with Anann, the goddess of the Paps of Ana. This originates in the identification of Anann with Anu and Anu with Danu. Anu, according to Cormac's Glossary, was mother of the Irish gods; while Danu was originally the goddess of the Danube (Lat. Danuvius). Finally, in The Second Battle of Magh Turedh, she is identified with Badb, the first sister of the trio.

It's not like it's confusing or anything. :p

It's this bit that intrigues me continually:


What do we make of this? The Morrigan--the Mare Queen and the Great Queen--is the goddess of war and sovereignty, the goddess of the land and its rivers and its animals. Only through appealing to her can a warrior become king or an army succeed. Only through her intercession can Ireland be taken by one tribe or another. She is sister of Eriu, but perhaps in an earlier version may have even been identified with Eriu, thus completing her role as the Goddess of Sovereignty.

Does anyone know where the idea of Ériu is an earlier version of or one of the Morrigan comes from?

[Seren_]

I think that 'The' Morrigan is an individual who is the leader of a group of three (ish) Beings and Her title is The Morrigan, as in 'The' meaning 'paramount', 'titular head', 'chief'.

Ahhhh, I like that. It would make her much like the Cailleach in that respect, who I've always thought of as being very similar.



Isn't there some lore as well, Seren, about Badb being a group as well?

Yes, she's often referred to as The Badb in the literature, much like it's The Morrigan...Gulermovich-Epstein touches on it: (http://web.archive.org/web/20011029012020/members.loop.com/%7Emusofire/diss/Mythframes.html)


In the narrative literature, as we shall see, badb and morrígain are almost always used with the definite article. Indeed, the Morrígan is often referred to as the Badb. However, in the glosses, both words are used without articles, again suggesting that they are being used to denote a class of beings.

[Seren_]

Sorry I didnt mean to make an incorrect assumption there :)
Ive met some soft polytheists here that argue the both is true because those deities are just regional variations of 1 greater god.

I like the idea that the great queen would apply to anyones sovereign goddess because in a tribal context their sovereign deity probably was the greatest deity and that badb could be the sovereign in her role as protector of the tribe in battle. I hadnt thought of that before and I try and stress the tribal nature of our pagan society as much as possible. I really appreciate that idea I'll be mulling it over for a fun while thanks Seren :hahugh:

No worries :)


Does anyone know where the idea of Ériu is an earlier version of or one of the Morrigan comes from?

I've no idea, but I was quite intrigued by mention on the Wikipedia page for Badb that Geoffrey Keating said she was woshipped by Eriu. It's a badly referenced article though, so I don't know how true it is. I've only read bits of Keating and don't remember seeing anything like that :whatgives: