Input from the Board on a Request

[BeachWitch]

Merry Meet Everyone!

A few days ago I received a request via WitchVox from a person seeking guidance in the Craft.

While I love sharing my experience and opening minds to our Path, this request came from a 14 year old girl.

I responded that I would teach what I know, provide book lists, etc. But I was adamant that any IRL contact had to be under the approval of her parents, and that before any IRL instruction could commence I would have to meet with her parent(s) to ensure no duplicity and to cover my adult behind from any legal hassels.

Surprisingly, she responded. In fact she was excited at the prospect of someone teaching her! However she has not approached her parents and even hinted at online instruction until she could "present her beliefs" to her parents.

The question is, should I say no, that she MUST tell her parents, or should I help her via email until she is ready to tell her parents? Obviously IRL contact would be off limits until the parents are informed.

Dealing with underage people is very tricky with all the laws and such.

Thanks in advance for any help or insight!

[Phoenix Blue]

It's your arse, legally, for contributing to the delinquincy of a minor if you don't have her parents' written permission to provide religious instruction. That includes any sort of instruction, whether IRL or online--the law makes no distinction.

Telling her parents obviously needs to be her first step - and it's a good first step toward a dedication, in any case. If you explain why you can't help her without her parents' permission, hopefully she'll understand.

[Old Witch]

Phoenix_Blue speaks the truth...........And I am speaking as a mother of a teenager.........

[materra]

I have no desire for you to go to jail...and until she is 18 that is where you could go if it was pushed far enough. Good intentions or not don't count in the corruption of a minor. Sorry hon, I know you wanted to teach.
BB

[BeachWitch]

Aw, thank you very very much!! I was sure on the IRL part, but fuzzy on the online part.

My inclination is to say firmly NO without written permission. Otherwise it just adds a level of secrecy that simply goes against my values and the values of my Path. How can she be true to the Goddess, the God, & herself, if she is lying to her family?

I know that if I had a teen who was searching for something, that I would want to help in the search. And besides, with all the crazies out there this young thing could get into big trouble.

Honestly, I can not thank you enough for the info!!

One more question. Is it really contributing to the delinquency of a minor or were you kidding? Because that would be a serious Civil Rights issue. (Sorry to be such a dunce!)

My issues are for avoiding secrecy relate to integrity and the care & feeding of the soul, not religious.

[Old Witch]

If the person is 14, the parent has the say so..........If you are not prosecuted criminally, then there's always civil court.....and there goes your good name..............

[Phoenix Blue]

Quoth BeachWitch:
One more question. Is it really contributing to the delinquency of a minor or were you kidding? Because that would be a serious Civil Rights issue. (Sorry to be such a dunce!)

**Smiles** It's not being a dunce if you've never asked before. . .

Yea, I'm serious. It really is contributing to the delinquency of a minor, insofar as you're attempting to indoctrinate a minor into a religion other than the parents' own, against the parents' wishes. A parent is the only party with rights to a child's spiritual upbringing, unless the parent forfeits those rights through abuse or neglect.

[materra]

Sorry, we were not kidding. And, even if the Parents change their mind about suing you.... sometimes the charges have to continue due to the District Atty and laws. Just say no. She is welcome to read all she wants on line but don't do any private tutorials until they are 18.

[BeachWitch]

Wow, that's really interesting.

I never knew parent's had such control over the spiritual upbringing of a child.

So basically, people under 18 have no religious rights/freedoms do they? If a 14-16 year old wants to persue, say Buddhism, in a Jewish home, the parents can ultimately prohibit the child from practicing. Or Hindu in a Christian home, etc etc....

Do any of you know how a minor child can persue their own path - to what ever spirituality - while under a parent's control?

BTW - this is not where I thought this conversation was going, but it certainly is interesting.

And actually, it brings up another good point. Christians/Jews/Mormons rely on "family" to propogate their numbers, while we, Pagans, rely on self discovery. The number of Pagans raising children is certainly rising, but not in the numbers the Judeo/Christian groups are. So the idea of "get 'em while their young" works fine for the Judaeo/Christians, it is actually prohibitive to us, in an odd way.

Thanks again for all the answers. I feel better being validated by my peers. I thought maybe I was being too hard line in saying No, but you all backed up my position with very good and sound advice!

[Phoenix Blue]

Quoth BeachWitch:
I never knew parent's had such control over the spiritual upbringing of a child.

So basically, people under 18 have no religious rights/freedoms do they? If a 14-16 year old wants to persue, say Buddhism, in a Jewish home, the parents can ultimately prohibit the child from practicing. Or Hindu in a Christian home, etc etc....

Do any of you know how a minor child can persue their own path - to what ever spirituality - while under a parent's control?

I don't think a parent can stop a child from studying her own faith. . . but the parent can make it difficult. Essentially, though, the child has no First Amendment right to religious expression in cases where that right conflicts with the wishes of the parent. It sucks to be young sometimes, ne?

[WandererInGray]

Just my thoughts....I'd say not only written permission from the parents...but a face-to-face meeting with them as well.

Written permission can be forged. *shrugs*

And as to how a minor would practice without consent of the parents....in their head, until they are old enough to do what they want.
I usually try to encourage kids to explore all religions, or even to study up on Christianity if their parents are very hard core about it. There's no harm in learning all you can.

[Yvonne Belisle]

You may want to point out that they need to be very careful out there because there are creeps out there. There are two stuck threads in the new pagan forum you may be able to get good ideas from in cautioning them. That would not be teaching them so you would be safe there.

[earthcat]

While under the age of 18, both my nephew and my niece would talk to me about their paths. I tried to gently avoid these questions, answering in a way that told just a little of how I do things and feel, while not directly answering them. I didn't want to dissauded them, but nor did I want to lead them. It was extremely difficult for me to do this; but had my sister found out about it, well, the crap would have hit the fan and splattered all over the state of Illinois.
I never even considered the legalities of it.....

[Semele]

Originally posted by Yvonne Thomas
You may want to point out that they need to be very careful out there because there are creeps out there. There are two stuck threads in the new pagan forum you may be able to get good ideas from in cautioning them. That would not be teaching them so you would be safe there.

This is the point I was going to bring up. obviosly she has access to a computer, where her parents may or may not be censoring her activity. There are a lot of folks out there that would take advantage of such a situation...not truly caring individuals like yourself. Perhaps you could just send her another email explaining your reasons for the refusal of tutoring and warn her not to trust everyone she talks to. You could even include several links to helpful resources that you trust. You could even give her this web address, we have several younger members here and I think this is a very safe place for young teens to seek knowledge and spiritual pathways.

Again, though, you just have to be very clear that you are acting out of concern for her wellbeing. I would even go so far as to save a copy of the email just in case. My first thought though was that she is communicating with you online and saying her parents aren't aware of her curiosity...who else is she/could she be talking to and what if someone less desireable and honest offers to meet her in person to help her learn? I think just saying "no, I can't help you" may lead her to keep searching. I say give her some places to read and learn. The more public type forum the better, where she can communicate with lots of folks at different ages and spiritual levels. That way her curiosity is fed and she is hopefully a little safer. I would hate to think of my child having to much of a one on one relationship of any calibur with another adult...especially one I didn't know.

[Haedis]

But where is the line actually drawn between guiding a student to information and out and out teaching them? Could an adult get sued for carrying on a somewhat lengthy discussion with a minor on a public message board? Are there definite boundaries or is it just that a parent can try to sue for just about ANY contact and its judged on a case by case basis?

[materra]

Child protective laws are well spelled out... (sorry couldn't resist) in the case of corruption of a minor you can be in major trouble and not realize it until the cops show up. The "CHIPS" laws are public info. (Children in need of protective services)

As for the message boards, well, that too is monitored folks. By the FBI and several other interested legal types. They also watch for adults talking to children... ie under 18 year olds.

So, yes, you can say "I am very sorry but my ethics require a face to face meeting with both your parents and/or legal guardians, their written permission, and wavier with notorization. While I would love to teach you when you are of age, until then these are the ground rules." At this point you may want to say something like " I would also like to point out that you could be vunerable to preditors. One resource for you to read about protection from these preditories would be this web site"...yada yada.

[Saphra]

Originally posted by earthcat
While under the age of 18, both my nephew and my niece would talk to me about their paths. I tried to gently avoid these questions, answering in a way that told just a little of how I do things and feel, while not directly answering them. I didn't want to dissauded them, but nor did I want to lead them. It was extremely difficult for me to do this; but had my sister found out about it, well, the crap would have hit the fan and splattered all over the state of Illinois.
I never even considered the legalities of it.....

To this day (I am 21) my mother still has no idea what my beliefs are, I feel that if I would tell her that I would disappoint her in some way, that I didn't believe in the God she wanted me too. Tho I love my beliefs, I still do not wish to disappoint my mother in any way, so she doesn't know.
My aunt didn't make me belive the things she practiced, but neither did she hinder me in any way.
I didn't even know that someone could prosocute another for sharing their beliefs with someone under 18. Wow, I learn something new every day.

sorry for all the misspelled words........

[BeachWitch]

After the email from the young lady, stating that she had not told her parents, yadda yadda, I sent her a note saying that I was away at a conference (which I was) and that I would email a lengthy response in the next few weeks.

On Monday, I received a note from her saying she changed her mind and was not ready to pursue the matter just yet. Which I found odd because of her urgency to begin study.

So I sent her a response telling her how impressed I was with her maturity; that I had consulted with other Pagans (*nods to mysticwicks*) and my own attorney and that a notarized document giving parental consent was mandatory due to her age; and that 4 years was not a really long time to wait to begin study, especially if she read on her own in the meantime.

I also begged her to be very careful on the internet, that she was lucky she encountered me and not someone with less integrity who could possible bring harm to her. I told her to be very very careful in the future because the internet was an extremely dangerous place for someone as young as she is and that she "had no idea what some people would do to a 14 year old girl"; to never meet anyone alone, never give out her phone number or address and never send anyone her picture.

And then ..... silence. I think this was a sting. I really do. And I think she "changed her mind" because the person doing the sting saw there was no getting around the parental consent with me.

What are your thoughts.

[Phoenix Blue]

It's hard to say. . . I don't think it would have been a police sting, though. Maybe some press-hound or something, or at worst a church member who was trying to do some "exposé."

You did the right thing, regardless. **Smiles**

[materra]

Hey, glad you took all our good advice. I actual came back to read how this went while I moved. I would stick to this format for any future inquires. BB