Questions about Paganism? [Archive] - MysticWicks Online Pagan Community and Spiritual Sanctuary

Raevyn

October 17th, 2002, 02:17 AM

My questions are to try to understand the methods, ideas and philosophies of modern paganism.

Paganism is actually an umbrella for many religions and philosophies - paths under it include Wicca, Shamanism, Druidry, Witchcraft, etc. Each of these have their own tenets and principles, and as well underneath them different people are fairly flexible in what they believe - for instance, a major tenet of Wicca is "an ye harm none do as ye will".

At first glance these 8 words (sometimes referred to as "the rede", though the actual rede is a poem that is much longer, and this one line is sometimes thought to be the most important part) suggest "do what you want, just don't harm anyone". For many, they take this literally and try never to harm people. Others suggest they only harm people if attacked and if not acting in some form of defense would harm themself. Others use this as advice (and rede means literally advice) and in situations try to choose a path that won't harm someone, or try to show as much respect for others as possible. As you can see, even this one core tenet of Wicca is very personal and dependent on experience and personal philosophy.

It would be nice to have a clear bulleted list of practices and beliefs for each religion under Paganism, or even Paganism itself, but this isn't the case - everyone has their own opinion. However, perhaps it would be useful to you to hear a general idea as to these things, and thus, I've done some searching for threads here at MW that might give you an idea of what people here believe.

Paganism/Wicca/Witchcraft - http://mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=18072

What is Wicca - http://mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=15011

What is Paganism - http://www.mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10657

You can find more by fiddling with our search function, but I do remember these threads as fairly interesting - I posted in each as Myst so if you need clarification on those posts let me know.

Largely the idea in Paganism is to use one's own experiences and beliefs to formulate a personal set of tenets and advice to live by - many paths in Paganism are very flexible and unique, though there are some more structured such as British Traditional Wicca. I should note here, yes Paganism includes various paths such as Wicca, Shamanism, and Druidry, and under Wicca there are also set paths that have some common beliefs but are unique to a coven (working group) or individual. In a group or coven obviously some larger rules or tenets might apply that affect the group as a whole, but as well, people who work individually often formulate their own ideas.

Paganism is not about an objective reality inasmuch as it is about finding truth through one's own perception - it advocates personal responsibility, and extensive research and consideration. Each person is believed to be able to make their own personal decisions, but is also expected to live within society's rules (laws).

Even the statement "truth is relative" isn't an absolute - the person who commented feels it is, but then who are we to know? Ours is not to judge and strictly define the universe, that would be impossible given current scientific development among other things - one tenet of a path I've been studying is that nothing is true, everything is possible - since no truth is more provable then another in terms of religion, any truth is feasible.

As to mental health - each individual must make their own choices and react in their own way. However, I feel it is a common idea in many Pagan paths that total health is necessary for spiritual growth and advancement - physical, mental, and emotional. Do you know if your coworker's depression is directly related to their beliefs? I would submit that perhaps they are due to other circumstances, and perhaps even their beliefs help them try to deal. It certainly isn't Pagan to encourage bad health of any kind, but instead to better oneself in all ways.

Caelin

October 17th, 2002, 08:14 AM

Originally posted by Belteshazzar
In Paganism, what is the basis for truth?

The person. Like everything else truth can be seen from a variety of different angles - the reason for all the different religions, after all, and political ideologies, and views on history, and everything studied in university to name only a few examples. Our ideas of truth come from our personal histories, our ideas, the way we think rather than from some great truth in the sky which reflects itself into human truths, its more subjective. And I don't think saying truth is subjective is itself an objective statement because I am saying it from the point of view of a subjectivist - therefore I'm saying truth is subjective, is subjective, which in itself shows I believe truth to be subjective :D

Is there a foundation for morality?

Personally I go for subjective consensus morality (terms as set out in this article (http://www.geocities.com/pagantheology/morality.html)), which is basically the old saying of "vox populi, vox dei", the voice of the people is the voice of God. Thus the foundation of my morality is the belief that the morality of the majority forms a morality binding on everyone (as in the laws) but which can be changed and does change over time as the people change. Basically people are the final arbiter of morality.

And .....Does Paganism promote psychological health?

Any ideology or religion which fits a person will promote psychological health in that person, IMO. Even if that health involves facing challenges, and problems within the belief structure, but then challenges and the overcoming of them are a measure of human growth and therefore a symptom of psychological health anyway.

-Caelin

Belteshazzar

October 17th, 2002, 10:24 AM

Originally posted by Raevyn
Do you know if your coworker's depression is directly related to their beliefs? I would submit that perhaps they are due to other circumstances, and perhaps even their beliefs help them try to deal. It certainly isn't Pagan to encourage bad health of any kind, but instead to better oneself in all ways.

Thanks Raevyn, Caelin and Freyja for your thoughtful replies.

To answer Raevyn's question, I am not certian what is the cause of his depression. All I know is he was a different person before he got involved in Wicca, and it seems that the more involved he has become, the more depressed and dark he has become as well.

As Raevyn points out, it could very well be due to other circumstances. All humans, reguardless of beliefs, will encounter adversities, depression and problems in his/her life. In his case however, it does seem to parallel his religious activity.

As an unbeliever in Paganism, this is my opinion on the matter. From what I have researched and read here, Paganism seems to be based more on fantasy and perception rather than reality. It seems that the concept of reality is not based on truth, but what one wishes or desires to be true. (create your own reality) And I guess this is fine until one tries to apply this philosophy to a real world with real problems. This is what I think is at the heart of my friends problem.

The concept of relative truth contradicts reality. Moreover, relativism puts "self" at the center of the universe. The concept of "do what you want, just don't harm anyone" cannot be universally applied to everyone by relativism.

The concept of subjective truth is only good for subjective purposes. For example ...."what side of the street should we drive on?" This is subjective. It depends on where you live. In the UK you drive on the left side, but in the US, we would appreciate if you drove on the right side. However, the concept of truth I am refering to is universal. Truths concerning the origin of life, morality, purpose, meaning and destiny are universal truths. Aristotle calls it "the law of non-contradiction". Simply put, two contradictory statements cannot both be "universally" true.

IMHO, you can't have truth and Paganism. I think this is my frriends problem, he wants truth apart from reality. In other words, he wants truth to match his own personal agenda and desires.

I really appreciate how kind and open all of you have been. I hope I have not ruffled to many feathers or made any mortal enemies by my pointed and direct reply.

shalom,

shaz

(p.s. does all this "green" wear on you after awhile? ;) )

Raevyn

October 17th, 2002, 10:50 AM

Thanks for sharing :) I can understand your point of view, even if I don't share it. I don't believe in an objective reality - even in theoretical physics we realize there's no way to view the universe objectively (since we view it from our own subjective view, and it's impossible to step out of that subjective view since the universe is everything - you can't look in from the outside since there *is* no outside). That in itself is not such a far fetched idea.

Also, wanted to comment that Paganism isn't about living a life of fantasy. It's about recognizing that there is more beyond our daily grind - it doesn't mean ignoring day to day tasks, it means making time for the spiritual as well as the mundane, inasmuch as people go to church some days but can continue working and living by society's rules and requirements. I don't feel there has to be one way or the other at all, and if you're coworker is suffering because of that they've missed the point. I suspect it would be best to speak to a psychiatrist/psychologist about that though.

I've actually been enjoying our discussion and I hope even if you don't end up agreeing with us or vice versa we can at least share perspectives without any ruffled feathers :)

Raevyn

October 17th, 2002, 10:51 AM

Oh I wanted to add as to the colour here - yes it wears on some but the colour scheme is changed regularly by vote in the community - this last time green won and so here we are :) Maybe if you stick around you can vote next time.

Belteshazzar

October 17th, 2002, 11:35 AM

Originally posted by Raevyn
Also, wanted to comment that Paganism isn't about living a life of fantasy. It's about recognizing that there is more beyond our daily grind - it doesn't mean ignoring day to day tasks, it means making time for the spiritual as well as the mundane, inasmuch as people go to church some days but can continue working and living by society's rules and requirements.

Raevyn,

Interesting comment. If you don't mind me asking, how did you find that Paganism was the right "path" for you to follow and where would you say it will lead you?

I've actually been enjoying our discussion and I hope even if you don't end up agreeing with us or vice versa we can at least share perspectives without any ruffled feathers :)

I am pleased to hear that. :D

It can be difficult sometimes to engage people of a different world view, and not offend someone. I think when someone is rattled too easily, then they just might be struggling with their own beliefs. This is a credit to you.

shaz

Raevyn

October 17th, 2002, 12:29 PM

Originally posted by Belteshazzar
Interesting comment. If you don't mind me asking, how did you find that Paganism was the right "path" for you to follow and where would you say it will lead you?

Paganism is something that gives me direction and faith, but it is always changing. It was important to me to find a path that encourages open mindedness and self responsibility - each person is expected to make their own choices and live by their own beliefs. At the same time, everyone should be afforded a basic amount of respect in that we all have every right to our own beliefs and ways (of course, within society's laws). I feel those are two things common to my idea of Paganism as a whole - self responsibility and respect, and this is why I'm Pagan.

Paganism is so subjective because it's supposed to be part of who you are and what you believe. As you learn and grow your beliefs might change. At one point I was Wiccan and thought I could never harm anyone. After awhile I realized that wasn't feasible (just walking across the lawn hurts grass and ants among other things, breathing in disturbes microbes in the air, taking antibiotics kills little beasties inside you), so I don't believe that anymore. It's like when you're in kindegarten and peanut butter and sandboxes are the be all and end all - then you grow and find rock music and computer games, and maybe someday gourmet food and golfing. I grow and change, and my path within Paganism grows and changes with me.

I think of Paganism as one facet of who I am - I'm also a computer programmer, a web developer, a daughter and sister, a friend and mate. Pagans are just like everyone else, they have the same jobs and do the same things. If you were to see me I'd appear to be a very normal looking plain person. I have goals in my career and family life and just like everyone else I have to face regular life everyday. The only difference is sometimes I pray, or study philosophy or various spiritual beliefs. I think of my spiritual beliefs as constantly evolving as I learn and grow, and I'm not sure it will lead me anywhere specific - I think there the journey is more important then a goal. I'd like to emerge with a better understanding of my beliefs and those of others, and a better understanding of the universe, and as a better person. I don't think Paganism has to be a component of being a better person, or any religion or path, it's just one way I try to understand life and become better.

Belteshazzar

October 17th, 2002, 12:41 PM

Raevyn,

So Wicca and Paganism are not one in the same? Am I understanding you correctly? ...or is Wicca simply a belief system within Paganism?

Also ...are there any religious beliefs that are not acceptable within the confines of Paganism?

shaz

Danustouch

October 17th, 2002, 12:43 PM

Hi Shaz, and welcome to MW. I hope that you are finding alot of answers to your questions :)

I wanted to address several of the issues you raised, so here goes :)

o answer Raevyn's question, I am not certian what is the cause of his depression. All I know is he was a different person before he got involved in Wicca, and it seems that the more involved he has become, the more depressed and dark he has become as well.

Unfortunately, it's very hard for us to provide you with a clear answer on this, because we don't know the person in question. How long have they been Wiccan, first of all. Secondly, What were they like BEFORE becoming Wiccan. Lastly, what exactly do you mean by "Depressed, and Dark". Because the term "Dark" especially, can be interpreted in a multitude of ways. One of the explanations that I can think of right off the top of my head, though, I'm not sure if they relate to this person, is that often, changing your spiritual path DOES come with a great period of confusion, and disillusionment. Sometimes, this can manifest itsself as apparent anger, bitterness, or depression. Remember, depending on what this persons family, co workers, or friends think of his religious choice, and depending on what their reactions were, he could be feeling completely isolated, and alone right now. I know that when I found paganism, the transition was NOT smoothe, by any means. I lost a great many of my friends during that transition, because they simply could not understand, nor appreciate the beauty of what I had found. I also wound up having to leave my parents house, because their religious beliefs clashed so severely with mine, that they gave me an ultimatum. Give up my religion, or move out. I'm sure that I walked around seeming pretty depressed during that initial few months, too! :) Any big change one undergo's, can bring about sorrow, and difficulties. Change is stressful. And whenever someone makes a change which is disagreeable to their friends, family, and coworkers, it becomes even MORE stressful. But...my hope is that if this is the case in his situation, eventually, he'll develope a new social circle, which will support him through whatever choices he makes in his life. And share with him, his happiness. It happened for me, so I hope it will happen for him, too.

As for Universal Morality, I'm not so sure I agree with that, either. There are still tribal societies in Africa, for instance, where Animal Sacrifice is performed. And the concept of "Thou Shall not Murder" is also subjective..dependent upon circumstances. For instance,
soldiers must kill. Cops sometimes, must kill. Even the judicial system allows for the death penalty in certain states.

In some cultures, polygamy is practiced, though fidelity is one of those moral virtues that most people take for granted, is universal.

So, in my opinion, in the way that I view the world, morality is highly subjective. We can talk of societal morality, or cultural morality, or religious morality. However, the idea of Universal Morality is pretty foreighn to me. I abide by the societal morality of Western Civilization. I abide by the religious morality that i've embraced (Seek to harm none). And even, to some extent, the morality I was raised with. I think most Wiccans and Pagans are the same, to some extent. I think that it may be more easy for Wiccans and Pagans to accept that morality may differ depending on culture, because there is very little doctrinization in our paths. Most Pagan Traditions encourage people to make up their own minds about their beliefs, rather than to accept a teaching written in once source, or by one teacher, etc.

As for Paganism being based more on Fantasy, than upon reality, what evidence have you found of this? I admit, that there is a segment of the Pagan Community who seem to have lost touch with reality, but...having been a Christian in the past, I've also witnessed that same element in Christianity. For instance, when I was a Christian, I recall a certain segment of the Christian Community who were nearly obsessed with the concept of spiritual warfare. The type that saw demons, and the devil, behind every corner. The "I've got a cold, I think the devil is trying to defeat me" type. To me, that is no more "REAL" than the element of the Pagan Community who believe a spell is being cast upon them when they develope a cold.

IMHO, you can't have truth and Paganism. I think this is my frriends problem, he wants truth apart from reality. In other words, he wants truth to match his own personal agenda and desires.

As for this, I think that is the human condition :) We all have our own personal desires, and agenda's. And we'll often find sources to back those agenda's up. From the Pagan Woman who felt unimportant when she was a Christian, and thus chose a Goddess oriented path, to the Christian who needed to feel that all of their past mistakes, all of the ways they've screwed up in their past (sinned), have been forgiven....because most of all, they haven't learned to forgive themselves, and heard the message of Gods forgiveness through Jesus Christ, and gave their hearts and lives to Jesus.

Personally, I feel that human beings are more alike, than we are differen't. And I see similarities between Paganism, and so many of the other world religions. IMHO, it simply takes an open mind, and open heart to see them :)

I really appreciate how kind and open all of you have been. I hope I have not ruffled to many feathers or made any mortal enemies by my pointed and direct reply.

:) It would take alot more than the voiceing of an opinion to make a mortal enemy of most of us on this board. Ya haven't kidnapped and tortured our pets yet...so...I think you're just fine :) (j/k). Open discussion is what this board is all about. As long as the rule of respect, and not bashing eachothers faith is respected, I don't foresee "feathers being ruffled". And..believe it or not, we're pretty good folk. We don't make mortal enemies very easily :)

Raevyn

October 17th, 2002, 01:02 PM

You are understanding me correctly :) Wicca is one of the belief systems/religions under the umbrella of Paganism, along with Shamanism, Druidry, etc. (I think in my first post I listed some threads that explained that for you)

A Pagan is anyone of a religion that is not Christian, Jewish, or Muslim, and one who self identifies as Pagan. Keep in mind, I don't include atheists in there, or necessarily people who are agnostic, and the exact definition of Paganism even in itself varies. Some Pagans study ancient beliefs (such as Celtic or Egyptian), some work within New Age stuff (crystals, chakras, etc.) and some combine them.

Belteshazzar

October 17th, 2002, 01:40 PM

Originally posted by Danustouch
As for Universal Morality, I'm not so sure I agree with that, either. There are still tribal societies in Africa, for instance, where Animal Sacrifice is performed. And the concept of "Thou Shall not Murder" is also subjective..dependent upon circumstances. For instance,
soldiers must kill. Cops sometimes, must kill. Even the judicial system allows for the death penalty in certain states.

greetings Danustouch,

Thanks for your relpy. You have made some interesting points that warrant some thinking, so I may have some questions later on.

Also, in reference to "thou shall not murder", you are correct. However, the problem lies in the English translation where it is often translated "thou shall not kill". The fact is, the Hebrew word "ratsach" exclusively means a premeditated slaying or killing that has no legal basis. This word is only used once in Exodus. Every other mention of "killing" is a translation of different Hebrew words that specifically pertain to the action taking place. So it is not as much an error in translation, as it is a lack of understanding. Biblically there is a difference between "killing" and "murder".

As for this, I think that is the human condition :) We all have our own personal desires, and agenda's. And we'll often find sources to back those agenda's up. From the Pagan Woman who felt unimportant when she was a Christian, and thus chose a Goddess oriented path, to the Christian who needed to feel that all of their past mistakes, all of the ways they've screwed up in their past (sinned), have been forgiven....because most of all, they haven't learned to forgive themselves, and heard the message of Gods forgiveness through Jesus Christ, and gave their hearts and lives to Jesus.

I understand this is the public perception of Faith in Christ. In scripture our "sin" in no longer the problem. Our sin has already been paid for, the problem we have is setting aside our pride in order to recieve that forgiveness. Having said that, our personal desires and agendas are part of the problem. The reason we continue to sin is because of our unwillingness to remove self from the throne and put Christ in His rightful place in our lives.

Everyone serves something or someone. If nothing else, we serve ourselves. I find that the self serving life ultimately leads to emptiness. To the contrary, I have found that serving Christ brings fulfillment, peace and joy. Moreover, it was in Christ that I discovered who I really was.

Unfortunately, this is not the message heard in many churches today. Religious "christians" are as without Christ as unbelievers. Like my friend, it seems that most Pagans I meet (not many btw) have simply been turned off by a "false christianity", usually at home.

Thanks for sharing.

ohh and one question ..."how does can Paganism define a "wrong doing", "sin" like say "murder"?" At what point does subjective truth actually have an application and what is the defining method?

shaz

Belteshazzar

October 17th, 2002, 01:50 PM

Originally posted by Raevyn
A Pagan is anyone of a religion that is not Christian, Jewish, or Muslim, and one who self identifies as Pagan. Keep in mind, I don't include atheists in there, or necessarily people who are agnostic, and the exact definition of Paganism even in itself varies. Some Pagans study ancient beliefs (such as Celtic or Egyptian), some work within New Age stuff (crystals, chakras, etc.) and some combine them.

Raevyn,

That is what I thought. So eastern myticism, modern and ancient, fit the bill.

So if the methodologies and philosophies of these varying practices conflict or contradict, then it falls in the category of subjectivity ...correct?

If that is so, then I would think that "subjectivity" is a "must" in order for Paganism to oprerate, rather than good reasoning and logical inquiry. In other words, "subjectivity" is the dogma of Paganism.

shalom,

shaz

Belteshazzar

October 17th, 2002, 01:58 PM

Originally posted by Raevyn
A Pagan is anyone of a religion that is not Christian, Jewish, or Muslim, and one who self identifies as Pagan.

Raevyn,

Hey, you know what this means? This means that cults such as Mormans, Jehovahs Witness, Gnostics, etc.. are really Pagan ...they just don't realize it! ...lol

shaz

Danustouch

October 17th, 2002, 02:16 PM

I understand this is the public perception of Faith in Christ. In scripture our "sin" in no longer the problem. Our sin has already been paid for, the problem we have is setting aside our pride in order to recieve that forgiveness

As I have learned, this is statement really depends on what denomination of Christianity you are part of :) Wesleyan vs. Calvinist, etc. In some denominations, it is taught that you aren't merely saved "Once" for instance, but that you need to continually be saved, each time that you sin. If you've already invited Jesus Christ into your life, and put aside your pride enough to do that (in christian theology), and yet sin again, that you must ask his forgiveness all over again, or risk the same condemnation as you would have before you knew Christ.

I agree with you about the Translation of Thou Shall Not Murder, and Thou Shall not Kill. Unfortunately, when speaking of religious or cultural morals, this specific mistranslation has become the understood or rather, misunderstood, implication of the commandment. And thus, many people base their moral beliefs about murder/killing upon this interpretation. So..even in this, there is not a Universal Morality. Some understand it to mean "Thou Shall Not Murder" and some understand it to mean "Thou Shall Not Kill..for any reason" (such as quakers).

As for Self Serving beliefs, Personally, I agree with you to some extent. I believe that we must live to Serve EACHOTHER, INCLUDING ourselves. You must also love yourself, in order to be of any help to anyone else in this world. I have a problem with people who live merely to bring joy to themselves as well. Selfishness or Selfcenteredness is a very big pet peeve of mine. However, I don't believe that by not Serving Christ, Jehovah, or YHVH, that I am serving myself. I am serving MY God and Goddess, as well as my fellow man, my brothers, AND myself, in my path. My belief on my deity, is this. As they nurture, love, and give to me, I will learn to love, and nurture, and give to myself. And when I am a healthier, happier, whole person, the NATURAL response to that, will be to Love Others, Give to others, and Nurture Others. Reversely, if I never learn to love myself, I will never learn to truly love others. Thus, in my spiritual path, a CERTAIN amount of self servingness is required. When I was a Christian, I could never quite learn how to love myself. To feel capable, to feel strong, to feel important, to feel that I could do wonderful things...despite the messages of "With faith you can move mountains..." etc, etc. Because in my own life, I had very little power over my own life, and my own decisions from the time I was born. I had been fairly oppressed, in that respect. When I came to Wicca, I discovered that I had IMMENSE power to make my own choices, my own decisions, to alter my own life, and my own world. That I didn't always have to ask for help. That I didn't always have to ask for approval. And when that happened, I began to truly love myself. And thus, I became a far more loving person, in return. That is how it worked for me :) Perhaps you see this as Serving Differen't things...I see at as Serving the same thing, in differen't ways :)

Yes..many pagans come to paganism after being turned off to more mainstream Religions , specifically through their home life. However, this is not always the case. For instance, in my case, my parents called themselves Christian, and had Christian Morality, but ...I went even a step beyond them :) They were not of an evangelical, or fundamentalist branch of Christianity. When I became of an age to think things through for myself, I actually became a Fundamentalist, Evangelical Christian. That in itsself, was difficult for them :) I would say that I was more turned off to Christianity because of what I was as a Christian, rather than what OTHER Christians did. I just wasn't a happy, loving person, as a Christian, no matter WHAT I did, or tried to do, no matter how much I prayed, and reflected. It just didn't make me into who I wanted to be, spiritually :) Also, many people come to Paganism or Wicca after being largely Agnostic most of their lives. It's very hard to make any generalizations about us :) We're a very diverse bunch :)

As for your last question, most Pagans don't really believe in "Sin" per se. That is not to say that we dont' believe ourselves capable of wrong doing, or that we dont' hold ourselves at fault for the mistakes that we make. We do. Some of us believe in a law of three fold, karmic return. Some of us believe in a differen't version of Karma. Some simply chalk it up to Cause/Effect. Most of us don't believe that our deities punish us for our wrong doings. But rather, that the wrongdoings themselves, bring NATURAL consequences for our actions. And what our responsibility to do, is to realize that we need to take responsibility for our wrong doings, and deal with the consequences of them. Obviosly, it becomes a little bit like a child learning about their environment. If a kid puts their hands on a hot burner once, they're not likely to make the same mistake twice ;) For instance, murder bears natural consequences which may include 1. Guilt 2. Legal Punishment 3. Financial Liability (let's just look at OJ simpson for that one) 4. Ostracization etc. These are some of the "natural" consequences for our actions. Those of us who believe in Karma, see life in a way of "What comes around, comes around". What ever energy you send out in this world, whatever actions you perform, come back to you. We view life as Circular, spiral, and patterned. Thus...we have to think not only of the natural consequences for our actions, but also the Karmic Consequences for our actions. The fact that when we are performing an abhorrant act such as Murder, it is likely that someday, we will have a loved one torn from us in such a way, or else, lose our own life, as a result of our action. Many people would think in a way, this is a "Hopeless" belief. That it would be better to believe that by asking forgiveness, we could not have to deal with the consequence of our action. However, to most of us, it is immensely freeing to realize that we have to deal with the consequences of our actions. That knowledge, allows us to make informed decisions about our actions, before performing them.

I hope this last bit was understandable...sometimes, I start to ramble :)

Raevyn

October 17th, 2002, 02:21 PM

Originally posted by Belteshazzar
Hey, you know what this means? This means that cults such as Mormans, Jehovahs Witness, Gnostics, etc.. are really Pagan ...they just don't realize it! ...lol

I would argue that all of these are fairly dependent on J/C beliefs. Then again, some would argue that Catholics aren't Christian ;) You'd have to discuss it with someone more well versed in those beliefs. I also mention "and one who self identifies as Pagan", meaning if they don't identify as Pagan they probably aren't ;)

That is what I thought. So eastern myticism, modern and ancient, fit the bill.

That would depend on who you ask. IMO, yes.

So if the methodologies and philosophies of these varying practices conflict or contradict, then it falls in the category of subjectivity ...correct?

Whether they conflict or contradict a person's belief and outlook is by default subjective. It is my opinion that everything is subjective.

If that is so, then I would think that "subjectivity" is a "must" in order for Paganism to oprerate, rather than good reasoning and logical inquiry. In other words, "subjectivity" is the dogma of Paganism.

Subjectivity is not exclusively without good reasoning or logical inquiry. As I mentioned, even in theoretical physics subjective reality is a common theory - I imagine you would agree the greatest physicists use "good reasoning and logical inquiry".

(edited because I had an objective in one spot rather then subjective hah!)

Danustouch

October 17th, 2002, 02:26 PM

Hey, you know what this means? This means that cults such as Mormans, Jehovahs Witness, Gnostics, etc.. are really Pagan ...they just don't realize it! ...lol

It wouldn't be the first time I heard that idea. Most Christian denomination sacutally teach that Mormans, Jehovah's Witnesses, and Gnostic's aren't really Christians. Personally, I feel that they are whatever they think they are :) Fantasy? Well..that would really depend on how they live their life. As far as Jehovah's Witnesses go, My husband grew up as a Jehovah's Witness. And I don't see how what they practice is so entirely differen't than what Jesus Taught, except on a very limited series of doctrines. They believe that People need to Seek God. They believe that people should try to live a Holy life, and they believe in giving to others. There is a thread on Jehovahs Witnesses in Just Talk that you might find an interesting read :)

Raevyn

October 17th, 2002, 02:32 PM

Originally posted by Belteshazzar
Unfortunately, this is not the message heard in many churches today. Religious "christians" are as without Christ as unbelievers. Like my friend, it seems that most Pagans I meet (not many btw) have simply been turned off by a "false christianity", usually at home.

I have to agree that many Pagans become Pagan because of "false Christianity" and it's very, very unfortunate. There are a few people who have a lot of emotional and spiritual baggage, and as far as I'm concerned it's unfortunate when people turn to something to "get away from" or "get back at" another belief system that they often largely misunderstand anyway. You're left with many Pagans who think hating Christians etc. is intrinsically part of Paganism, or who have so many problems because of the hate they feel.

Hate shouldn't be a major factor in spiritual growth.

flar7

October 17th, 2002, 03:13 PM

a lot of the pagans I know, (seems to be a growing number) agree
with more and live by more of what Jesus taught, than a lot of
my christian friends. As a christian I find this strange. I have
noticed that a lot of the chrirstians, and non-pagan peoples I
associate with are extremely judgemental towards pagans. While
the pagans I know, (most, not all) are for the most part non-judgemental
and accepting of all paths.

As a christian, I think that mormons, Jehovah's witness, and gnostics
are christian. They just do it different and concentrate on specific
parts of the message, and not the whole thing.

as to any religion? they are all subjective. I like what George Carlin said,
"Organized religion, has the world believing that there is an inivisible
man above us, who sees everthing...."

We know reality by what we experience, and we can only tell others
about spiritual matters, there is no proof other than, "we know"
all else can be argued about with facts and numbers. My faith is
enough for me, and who am I to complain if I get to heaven and
everyone is there? Am I gonna gripe? nope. Was a very important
moment for me when I realised this.

Belteshazzar

October 17th, 2002, 03:28 PM

greetings everyone!

What happen to that lovely post I was about to respond to.

Anyway, I am going to try to stay on topic. While I don't believe that any group that calls itself "christian" really is, that would need to be a another thread all together. If there is a debate froum here, I would be glad to debate that topic one on one with anyone.

BTW ...I thought that was a funny conclusion, you know ...humor. But I guess one of your fellow Pgagns did not appreciate it. I guess he or she does not share the Pagan philosophy of subjectivity. (...what "bad stuff" is going on here?)

I wish I had time to respond to all that has been said, but time does not permitt me to. Back to the topic of "subjectivity". The problem I see with this theory is that in order to be Pagan, one *must* deal with religion and truth "subjectively". Therefore, "subjectivity is an "absolute" in Paganism, which does not allow for absolutes.

See my difficulty?

My apologies to the person who was upset by my humorous theory.

shaz

Belteshazzar

October 17th, 2002, 03:32 PM

Originally posted by Raevyn
Hate shouldn't be a major factor in spiritual growth.

I agree 100%.

Hate is the cancer that hinders spiritual growth and sometimes ...stops it all together.

Danustouch

October 17th, 2002, 03:37 PM

I can see why you think it's a difficulty...but I don't see it as a difficulty at all. In my belief system...All truths, are true. Therefore, I leave room for the possibility that there IS an absolute truth, too. Maybe I just don't know it. Maybe I just haven't learned it. But...it MAY be there. Basically, part of my spiritual growth, has been to realize that I don't know everything. I don't have all the answers. There are MULTIPLE things that I cannot see or know, while on this side of reality. All I can do, is do what works for me. What makes sense to me. And everyone else must do the same :)

Belteshazzar

October 17th, 2002, 04:02 PM

Originally posted by Danustouch
Basically, part of my spiritual growth, has been to realize that I don't know everything.

D-

Me too!

BTW ...thanks for the conversation, I have enjoyed it. I will try to respond more to your post tommorow when I have more time.

ohh ...and wish me a happy b-day today. I am 1 1/2 score + four!

shalom,

shaz

Danustouch

October 17th, 2002, 04:08 PM

AKKKKKKKKKKKKKK...what a confusing way of putting it. Happy Birthday, Anyway...

(thinks back to the ghettysburg address...four score, and seven years ago...........that would make it........................Dang. Spirituality and theology and stuff I can deal with. Math..forget it! )

Danustouch

October 17th, 2002, 04:15 PM

Four Scores was 80 years...right?

so...does that mean you are thirty four years old? REALLY guessing here!

Illuminatus

October 17th, 2002, 04:43 PM

One Score = 20
four Score = 80

Hello Bal,

Yeah, I'm a Pagan, but I'm not Wiccan. Wiccan is kind of a subset of pagan. I don't go in much for that whole magik stuff, and I'm a firm believer in OBjective reality. However, in those views I'm a minority here.

The truth is a tricky fish to catch. It's like Kosh said on Babylon 5 - Understanding is a 3-edged sword... there's your truth, the other guy's truth, and a third one in between. My girlfriend is a pagan, and I don't really understand much of her truth. The idea that lighting a candle and burning a feather is going to make her problems go away seems a bit ridiculous to me. Then again, as a Discordian, I do some ridiculous stuff myself, like ritually sacraficing articles of clothing to the gods in traditional high-ritual style. But the key thing is I do it just for the sake of being ridiculous! I don't expect a new job to suddenly land in my lap or some old lover to be drawn back to me.

You don't have to understand your friend to sympathize with him. Burning a candle and eating lavender cookies helped my girlfriend quit smoking. Was it magik? Or just an extremely elaborate, willful and self-perscribed application of the placebo effect, a sort of psychosomatic application of self-denial? Could it be a fusion of both? I don't know, but then again I don't have to. If she thinks magik helps her, and this gives her the confidence to better lead her life, I have no problem calling it magik.

As for your friend, we'd need more information to determine the root of his issues. Often the conversion to Wicca is an act of rebellion against their established religion and culture. That's how it begins for many, especially teenagers who are rebellious by nature. Whether it ends there or goes on to be something more meaningful varries from person to person.

- Illuminatus!

Raevyn

October 17th, 2002, 06:17 PM

Originally posted by Danustouch
I can see why you think it's a difficulty...but I don't see it as a difficulty at all. In my belief system...All truths, are true.

Conversely, I believe nothing is "true" - I don't believe that anything can be proven true more then anything else - I can't prove my god exists anymore then any other god, nor can I prove there are no gods. Thus, any belief may be true, and no one is more true then another, so anything is possible.

I think Ill has made a great point - I guess to me it's not important who's right and who's wrong as much as that everyone finds their own way and is happy in their way. I'm well aware I might be delusional to other people, I don't mind so much ;)

Belteshazzar

October 17th, 2002, 11:01 PM

Originally posted by Danustouch
If you've already invited Jesus Christ into your life, and put aside your pride enough to do that (in christian theology), and yet sin again, that you must ask his forgiveness all over again, or risk the same condemnation as you would have before you knew Christ.

Danustouch,

This is partially true. When a Christians sins, and he/she will, they do need to confess their sin, but not at the risk of the same condemnation. Some may believe this and some may teach it, but is foriegn to scripture. 1John 1:9 says "IF we confess our sin, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sin and cleanse us from all iniquity" The word "confess" does not specifically mean to "confess verbally", it literally means to look at that sin the same way God does. In other words, if you don't hate the sin, you cannot truly confess it. So the risk is two-fold. 1. You will continue to pay the earthly consequences of that sin until you come to hate it (kind of like karma) 2. Un-confessed sin hinders your relationship to God (spiritual growth)

In reguards to denominations and such, I find that scriptural truth is never on the far left or far right, but rather in the balance. People who get too caught up in the Arminian vs. Hyper-Calvinist debate have lost focus of the most important truth ...."take up your cross anf follow me". How many Christians do you know that do the things Christ did? Probably few, if any. What we are witnessing in the church today was predicted by the Apostle Paul almost 2000 years ago, he called it "the falling away of the church". So as Christian I am not surprised, I only seek to examine my own walk with Christ daily to avoid that pitfall.

shaz

Belteshazzar

October 17th, 2002, 11:29 PM

Originally posted by Raevyn
Conversely, I believe nothing is "true" - I don't believe that anything can be proven true more then anything else - I can't prove my god exists anymore then any other god, nor can I prove there are no gods. Thus, any belief may be true, and no one is more true then another, so anything is possible.

Raevyn,

You make an interesting point, but allow me to apply an analogy.

First let me say that I love kids (I have 6), so please don't take this to be insensative. But let's say we are all standing around an altar and someone (not one of us) attempts to sacrifice his/her baby to his god. Could you say he is wrong? Do you have the right to attempt to stop him? Would you attempt to stop him?

Do you see what I am getting at? Reguardless of what is acceptable to a particular culture or religion, our conscience bears witness that this is wrong. The only reason this is illegal in all cultures today is because of the establishment of absolutes, otherwise we would still be in the dark ages. (not that this age isn't dark) Abandoning absolutes is slowly egdging us backwards.

I don't believe anyone can prove by pure logic that God exist. If we could, then we would be able to limit God to a mathematical formula or put God in a box. But we can demonstrate the high probabilty that God exist. The most effective arguments are the cosmological (cause and effect), ontological (God exist in the mind) and teleological (design, purpose and order).

shaz

Danustouch

October 17th, 2002, 11:43 PM

This is partially true. When a Christians sins, and he/she will, they do need to confess their sin, but not at the risk of the same condemnation. Some may believe this and some may teach it, but is foriegn to scripture. 1John 1:9 says "IF we confess our sin, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sin and cleanse us from all iniquity"

Been a while since my biblical interpretation classes at Eastern Nazarene College, but could you possibly check a translation source for me? I recall Romans 10:9 (or is it 9:10, my memory is fuzzy) saying "If you confess with your LIPS that Jesus is Lord, and Believe in your heart, that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved". Just wondering if the translation of the word "Confess" in this verse is the same as the verse in John that you quoted....because it's a verse which seems very clear to me, that Paul thinks that Verbal Committment, is every bit as important as lifestyle committment. One cannot live independently of the other. You can have no actions without words, and no words, without actions (I also recall a chapter in James referring to this, but...my bible is currently packed away..).

To me, saying that people get too caught up in the calvinistic vs. armenian debate is both true, for the point you made, and false. I believe it's very important for a Christian to know "How they are Saved" if they are going to walk the path of Christianity. To me, the only dangerous part, is when, like in any other religious exchange, One belief system says that theirs is the ultimate truth, to the extent which they alienate the other belief system. Which, having attended a Nazarene College, in their Youth Ministry Program, I saw happening quite often with students from other Church Backgrounds (Methodist, Baptist, Presbyterian, etc) coming to a Nazarene College. The calvinist vs. Armenian debate came up often, and more times than not, the debate would run very hot, and nearly alienate one person or another. Here again, I can find affirmation for my essential belief....That we all can only do that which we think is right. We can all only believe, what we believe to be true for ourselves. When we become so emeshed in the debate of right/wrong, we lose our open mind, and our open heart, and become hard hearted, and hard headed to a point where it will only be damaging to ourselves.

I do know, However, that when I was in College, a very heated discussion took place regarding whether or not a person could truly be saved, if they continued to sin. MANY of the student body, and even the people on the discussion panel (pastors from various churches, of various denominations), believed that if a person Accepted Christ, verbally, or in action, but then, continued to live the same Sin over and over again, their redemption was seriously in question. Some justified this by saying "The Question is not whether they continue to be saved by grace, but whether or not they were truly saved in the first place. If they were truly saved, and admitted Jesus into their lives, they'd no longer be ABLE to wallow in sin.". This didn't sit well with some of our students, whom believe whole heartedly, that Sin is similar to a disease like alchoholism. Once you are Saved, you are Saved. But Sin is still there. And you will occasionally fall back into it, as a human. And the important thing, is that you know that God loves you anyway.

Whew...boy..was that ever rehashing some memories :)

As far as saying that you seek only to examine your own walk, daily, and live the path you've chosen, I think that's a very enlightened way of looking at things. People spend far too much time, worrying about what others believe, and judging others, rather than looking at their OWN lives, and LIVING their truths :)

Danustouch

October 17th, 2002, 11:50 PM

Do you see what I am getting at? Reguardless of what is acceptable to a particular culture or religion, our conscience bears witness that this is wrong.

Exactly. Our conscience bears witness to right, and wrong. Our individual Conscience. At differen't times in history, Child sacrifice was accepted. Their Conscience didn't automatically accept that it was wrong. Look at the story of Abraham and Issaac for instance. God told Abraham to Sacrifice his beloved son. And Abraham was fully prepared to do so, until God stopped him. At that moment, Abrahams Conscience didn't dictate the implicit morality of the situation. That was the Societal/Religious morality of his day. Child Sacrifice was often performed in cultures of the globe at that time.

Our society has since evolved, and changed. MOST societies (though I do not have enough information on every culture, and every tribe around the globe today, to say that ALL societies) believe that Child Sacrifice is wrong. That doesn't mean that it's an absolute. It means that it's how society has evolved. Yes..My conscience would bear witness that Child Sacrifice was wrong. And Yes..I would stop it. But..had I grown up in the time of Abraham and Issaac, or in some remote culture where child sacrifice was performed regularly, I might not have evolved with that moral conscience.

Belteshazzar

October 17th, 2002, 11:51 PM

Originally posted by Raevyn
I think Ill has made a great point - I guess to me it's not important who's right and who's wrong as much as that everyone finds their own way and is happy in their way. I'm well aware I might be delusional to other people, I don't mind so much ;)

Raevyn,

It's kind of hard to tell a happy person .."you're not happy" or "you need ...." ....but IMHO, religion will only bring a temporal state of happiness

Ill-,

Thanks for your reply. In reguards to my friend, I am really not close enough to know that much. We are basically co-workers and use to travel together when working. I am just noticing certian changes that parallel his involvement in Wicca.

As a non-Pagan, I will not give him any Pagan ritual advice. However, he already knows where I stand on spiritual issues, and when he wants to talk about it, he is not shy about asking. I am really just trying to better understand what modern Pagans really believe. In that endevaor, all of you have been a great help, and very interesting to talk to.

thanks,

shaz

btw ...D- ....1 1/2 score + four is 34.

Danustouch

October 17th, 2002, 11:57 PM

Incidentally...I'm glad I had the 1 1/2 scores + 4 years right :) Then, I'd REALLY have felt like a Dolt :)

Belteshazzar

October 18th, 2002, 12:02 AM

Originally posted by Danustouch
Been a while since my biblical interpretation classes at Eastern Nazarene College, but could you possibly check a translation source for me? I recall Romans 10:9 (or is it 9:10, my memory is fuzzy) saying "If you confess with your LIPS that Jesus is Lord, and Believe in your heart, that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved". Just wondering if the translation of the word "Confess" in this verse is the same as the verse in John that you quoted....because it's a verse which seems very clear to me, that Paul thinks that Verbal Committment, is every bit as important as lifestyle committment. One cannot live independently of the other. You can have no actions without words, and no words, without actions (I also recall a chapter in James referring to this, but...my bible is currently packed away..).

Danustouch,

Fantastic point!

Yes this is the same greek word (homologeo). You are exactly right, Paul is making the application to a verbal statement. I think Paul is getting at the same point Jesus made. Jesus said "if you will not confess me before men, I WILL NOT confess you before my Father in heaven" (from memory) In other words, there is no closet Christians. However, in 1John 1:9, there is no hint towards a public confession, or confessing to a priest or whatever. Why do you think most people who confess their sin to a priest, go out and commit the same sin over and over again.

Great points, I must say I was impressed. ;)

shaz

Danustouch

October 18th, 2002, 12:09 AM

However, in 1John 1:9, there is no hint towards a public confession, or confessing to a priest or whatever. Why do you think most people who confess their sin to a priest, go out and commit the same sin over and over again.

Now let's not fall into judging catholic practices. That wouldn't be very respectful. Especially since that statement asks us to accept a generalization, or a stereotype. I simply cannot say that MOST people who confess to a priest, repeat the same sin over and over again, just as I cannot say that MOST people who confess a sin at altar call on a sunday morning at church,...OR In the quiet of their own prayers, does NOT go out and repeat the same sin over and over again. These things aren't exactly proven by statistics :)

As for the verse in 1 John 1:9, that is one verse which backs up your point. However, if there are other verses stating the opposite stance, once again, you must only follow what you yourself feel is true. :)

Belteshazzar

October 18th, 2002, 12:17 AM

Originally posted by Danustouch
I believe it's very important for a Christian to know "How they are Saved" if they are going to walk the path of Christianity.

Danustouch,

Wow! you are very familiar with the most heated Christian debates. The only sad thing is that they get so heated. I contend that it stems from the "I'm right" type of thinking is based more on carnal behavior rather than scripture.

All I know is "once I was blind and now I see". That of course does not mean I know everything. It is what I do know that I cling to. Because your right, it is importatnt for a Christian to know "how they were saved" ....which is so easy ...."by grace ye are saved, through faith and NOT of yourselves".

Maybe I will have time to respond more tommorow, because you have so many good points that I would like to comment on.

shaz

Belteshazzar

October 18th, 2002, 12:22 AM

Originally posted by Danustouch
These things aren't exactly proven by statistics :)

D-,

Your right. It is just my opinion, like my earlier opinion that most Pagans come from a Christian background. I did'nt mean to sterotype. Actually, I was reflecting on seeing news footage of lines to confessional after 911. Do you really think all those people suddenly realized they were sinning?

Did you see the movie about the Cuban missle crisis? (13 days I think)

Anyway, sorry it I offended. :)

shaz

Danustouch

October 18th, 2002, 12:35 AM

Not being Catholic myself, I didn't personally take offense :) I was just giving you the opportunity to maybe..soften it before anyone else here could take offense :)

So odd that you should mention that movie. I caught the tail ending of it just the other day. But..i've yet to sit down and watch the entire thing (sad, because personally, as carnal as it may be, I think Kevin Costner is just TOO hot).

Flar's Freyja

October 18th, 2002, 12:48 AM

:) Being raised Catholic myself, I'm not offended.....I've also been Baptist, Jewish, Pentecostal, Methodist and just plain Christian. I can question any of these practices, including my current path.

What fascinates me is that almost all religions have a common thread - do unto others as you would have them do unto you, and don't harm anyone. There are also countless other similarities although each path follows their doctrine or dogma in a different way. I am frequently frustrated and saddened by the conflict and heated debate that goes on. I am thankful that I had exposure to so many different religions and an understanding of their foundation. I hope that Paganism will receive the same respect and understanding some day.

The way I explain my path to my sons and relatives is that I have not stopped believing in God. My perception of God has changed. I see the Divine now as having both male AND female aspects and recognize the Divine in every single being that I interact with. As a result, I am a far more spiritual person, or "devout" person than I ever was when I participated in organized religion.

I may not agree with all paths, but I do respect them. One of the problems I had with some of the Christian churches I attended was the concept that my Italian Catholic grandmother, who attended 6 a.m. Mass every single day of her life and even broke her hip on the ice on the church steps, was not going to heaven because she wasn't "saved."

I'm not at home to double-check my source, but I believe it's the Baghadvagita that states that there are many ways to serve God and He/She loves all of them.

Belteshazzar

October 18th, 2002, 11:14 AM

Originally posted by Freyja
One of the problems I had with some of the Christian churches I attended was the concept that my Italian Catholic grandmother, who attended 6 a.m. Mass every single day of her life and even broke her hip on the ice on the church steps, was not going to heaven because she wasn't "saved."

greetings Freyja and welcome to the discussion!

I understand what you are saying. I hope I did not give you that impression. I usually post on a theology forum where we openly discuss or question the practices and doctrines of Christianity and other related faiths. The basic principal there is no "personal attacks". However, I intend to respect the rules of this forum. If people start to complain about my post, then I will kindly depart.

The point I made ealier was in refernce to 1John 1:9 and should not be taken personally. You can search the scriptures, and I promise you that you won't find sound doctrine for confessing your sin to person. The only reason I pointed that out was because if someone simply performs a confession ritual, then 1John has no value. If your heart and mind has not changed, then of course you will continue to commit the same sin. However, that is not to say that all confessions in Catholicism are not sincere. It is simply to point out the true meaning of 1John 1:9.

Personally, I am convinced that there is doctrinal error in all denominations, some more that others. However, the is a difference between doctrinal error and heresy against Christ. That is the big difference.

But as for Catholics, I do not share that all Catholics are lost. I attend a protestant church where some people just show up once a week to sit and sour in a pew. I am not called to "judge" them, but to be salt and light to anyone and everyone.

Most of the verses that people create doctrinal error on have to do with the evidence of salvation. If someone has truly been born again, then there will be a manifestation of the fruits of the spirit which are event by their works. Take Mother Theresa for example. While I may not share her Catholic doctrine, look at her life. If anyone was doing the work of Christ, she was. But this is where it get "hairy", many start to confuse "works" with salvation. Christians are not saved by doing good works. Good works are simply *one* of the signs of a genuine salvation. That is why the bible contains verses that "red flag" people concerning "works" lest they obtain false religion as did much of Israel in New Testament times.

Danustouch

October 18th, 2002, 11:39 AM

Ok..now freyja has opened a new can of worms :) Belteshezzar, maybe the tables are turning, I've got a question for you. As I said, I studied at a Nazarene College, Nazarenes are one of the more fundamentalist, evangelical denominations of Christianity. During my time studying there, my uncle, who was the most awesome person I knew, in so many ways, passed away from a long battle with Colon Cancer. The man was like a father to me. He never believed that Jesus Christ was the ONE true savior, or that Jehovah was the ONE true God. However, as far as I'm concerned, this man had more true "Holiness" in his little finger, than MANY born again christians do in their entire body. A man who was faithful to his wife, for 40 years of marriage. Who raised two wonderful daughters. A self employed carpenter, and painter who worked every day of his life, to support his family. The man taught love, and patience, and humor, and "good living" to every person who came his way..by example. I can't tell you how many times, as a troubled teen, my uncle and aunt would come bye to pick me up, so that they could take me out to talk about my problems with my parents, without my parents breathing down my neck. To give me room to vent. Then..when I would be through venting, he'd sigh, and pick up my hand, and tell me.."Honey...your parents are only human. All humans have their problems. Try to be a little patient with them, and to love them, in spite of their many faults. They're struggling, just like you are". He never smoked, He never drank, He never fought, he may have cussed every now and then....he never, ever stole, or lied. And his absolute..ABSOLUTE devotion to his wife, makes me absolutely positive that the likelihood that he ever "Lusted" after another woman...is nil. I never even caught him watching an episode of baywatch, which is rare for men ;) He had a wicked sense of humor, loving to tease people, and play pranks. But ...kind of like a trixter figure in mythology, these were never done with malice, but with a lesson in mind. A morality lesson, often. The man would help ANYONE who he saw needed it. When he sung, which he did often, the man sounded like an angel. He could croon out some old gospel songs in a way that would make your insides turn to jelly. His whole face would glow with love.

If ANY man EVER radiated Christ-Like traits, it was him. Christian does mean "Christ Like" or "Of Christ" ...doesn't it? He would never, ever consider himself a Christian though. Simply a man who Saw God in all that he did, and all that he looked upon, every day. He found God in the quiet mornings in his back yard. In the moon shining on a clear night. On Autumn days when the leaves swirled around him. Everywhere. He never had to go to a church, or make a confession, or tell others about his religion, or even have much religion himself. Because..He lived it.

When he passed away, the funeral was almost an endless stream of people for 4 hours. HUNDREDS of people whose lives he touched, came by to pay their respects. Nobody, who ever met my Uncle, ever had a bad word to say about the man. And when these people grieved his passing..I mean..THEY GRIEVED. People who may have only met him a few times, cried. That's how incredible a person he was.

When I returned to college, after the funeral, i was highly distraught. My "Theology" had taught that though he may have been a great man, by his refusal to aknowledge Jesus as the Lord, he was not in Heaven. But in Hell. This is NO God, that I would want to serve, in any way. If he could condemn a spirit as beautiful as my uncles to Hell, I wouldn't want to serve him. At all. I turned to my professors, and fellow students, for support, but, all they gave me was doctrine. The same doctrine..that he was in Hell.

That's pretty much when I made the clean break from Christianity. I left college after that semester. It wasn't the only reason though, as I said, I had already begun to look at myself, and my life, and decide that Christianity wasn't making me the type of person that I truly wanted to be. That it just wasn't "For" me. But..when my Uncle died, that was the straw that broke the
camels back.

If a Man walks in Jesus Footsteps, All of his life, emulating him in every deed, in every word, and indeed, in spirit. Then how can he not be saved? I understand that it is not deeds alone which save a man. Because many people will perform good deeds to acheive
fame, recognition, or for other ulterior motives. But..when the deeds are backed up by a spirit as loving, pure, and kind as my Uncles Spirit, How can he now, be burning in hell?

As for me, as a Pagan, I don't try to emulate Jesus in my life. Just as my Uncle never did. I try to emulate my Uncle. Who to me was living proof of Love and Spirit, and the power that they have to change lives. I dont' worship him..hah...but..I do try to emulate him.

Belteshazzar

October 18th, 2002, 11:49 AM

Originally posted by Danustouch
Exactly. Our conscience bears witness to right, and wrong. Our individual Conscience. At differen't times in history, Child sacrifice was accepted.

Danustouch,

I have to disagree with any philosophy that bases morality on what the majority may find acceptable. What if for example, men out numbered women by let's say 4-1. Then men propose a "law" that leaglizes the abuse of women by men, including rape. Would that be acceptable to you?

Biblically, our conscience is the *God given* ability to discern between right and wrong where there is no law. However, sin directly hinders one's ability to listen to his/her conscience. This reason God gave the law, because of the numbness of the cultural conscience, the increase of sin.

Often when we hear about evil acts like this sniper or the rape and murder of 5 year old Samantha Runnion we ask *How?* Well, if man gets to the point where he can no longer hear his conscience ....what do you expect he will do?

Consider this statement by someone who had a strong dislike for Christianity.

Hobart Mowrer (athiest and one time president of the American Psychological Association)

For several decades we psychologists looked upon the whole matter of sin and moral accountability as a great incubus and proclaimed our liberation from it as epoch making. But at length we have discovered that to be free in this sense, that is, to have the excuse of being sick rather than sinful, is to court the danger of also becoming lost. This danger is, I believe, betokened by the widespread interest in existentialism which we are currently witnessing. In becoming amoral and ethically neutral and free we have cut the very roots of our being, lost our deepest sense of self within identity and with the erotics themselves find ourselves asking who am I? what is my deepest destiny? what does living mean?

Quoted in the American Psychologist in 1960.

This aricle recieved more letters to the editor that any before or after. I believe this is strong evidence as to what I am saying, even tho it is not popular. (btw ..science is suppose to be a skeptical society subject to peer review )

In history, God judges nations and cultures who have lost their moral conscience. That is why we see less of it today. The purpose of this judgement is "corrective" and to protect mankind from overbearing evil. Consider Genesis 6:5.

"And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. "

And we all know the rest of the story. If God had allowed this evil to continue we would not be here today. IMHO I believe the world is already headed back in that direction, but in a very subtle and self-righteous way. That is why I believe "subjectivity" is extremely dangerous. Before you know it, most of society will be calling good-evil and evil-good. In fact, it has already begun by saying that evil does not exist. ...See how subtle.

So would anyone here say that Hitler or Stalin were on their subjective paths? .....or were they evil men who had lost their moral conscience?

shaz

Phoenix Blue

October 18th, 2002, 11:54 AM

Quoth Belteshazzar:
But this is where it get "hairy", many start to confuse "works" with salvation. Christians are not saved by doing good works. Good works are simply *one* of the signs of a genuine salvation. That is why the bible contains verses that "red flag" people concerning "works" lest they obtain false religion as did much of Israel in New Testament times.
Hairy, indeed. :) I'm going to hop in at this point to provide my own insight.

Too frequently, Christians attempt to judge whether another person is "saved" through the other's adherence to some facet of the Christian belief system. Therefore Jehovah's Witnesses are considered "unsaved" by many denominations, even though they are by definition Christians. Likewise Catholics.

I would like to see more Christians make judgments based on the actions a person commits. If good works are truly the sign of a true salvation, shouldn't doing good things be smiled upon no matter the faith of the person doing it? Too frequently, this is not what happens. . . and the world, I think, is poorer for it.

Phoenix Blue

October 18th, 2002, 11:59 AM

Quoth Belteshazzar:
So would anyone here say that Hitler or Stalin were on their subjective paths? .....or were they evil men who had lost their moral conscience?
I would say that it is beyond my ken to know the path of another; but my own path, were I there at the time, would have me put an end to those men's actions.

Edit:

For the record, I don't believe evil exists outside the minds and actions of humans. Nature has no need for the concept--a hurricane is no more evil than a gentle breeze; nor is a wildfire any more evil than a campfire.

The actions that Stalin and Hitler took were reprehensible and, yes, evil. I might even say the same about the individuals themselves; and certainly, the spirits of their victims would have no quarrel with me. But I would never make such a statement of another unless I had knowledge of such reprehensibly-harmful actions the other had taken.

As Danustouch pointed out, however, evil is subjective to the society. Most Christians view animal sacrifice as evil today, yet the Book of Leviticus demanded animal sacrifices from the tribesmen of Israel. I've heard say that the blood of Christ has made sacrifice unnecessary; but I've never actually seen this doctrine written in the New Testament.

Danustouch

October 18th, 2002, 12:06 PM

So would anyone here say that Hitler or Stalin were on their subjective paths? .....or were they evil men who had lost their moral conscience?

I don't think it's a matter of moral conscience in this case. I believe that it is a matter of mental illness. These people were sick individuals. I can't feel sympathy for their actions, at all...but I can say that it's pretty obvios to me that something has gone wrong in their DNA makeup, in their Chemichal or Biological make up, which has made them mentally ill. Paranoid, Power hungry, etc.

As for whether or not I would have allowed abuse of women, or rape...again, you are asking me to look back into history from a "Current view". Of course, from this Society's Moral Standpoint, and from all of the morality that I have learned..NO, I would not stand bye and allow these things to happen.

But, again, referring back to the Story of Abraham and Isaac, and to other verses of other books of history, and mythology, if I had grown up in a differen't society, in a differen't culture, in a differen't time in history, I have no way of knowing what I would do. I can "Hope" that my conscience would still have seen these things as evil...however, I can't know for sure that they would have. And let's face it, many ancient cultures practiced things that in my current worldview, would be evil. Human, Animal, Child Sacrifice, Murder, Polygamy, Rape, etc...these all fall under the category of immoral, and "evil" if you will, in my current world view. But...can we honestly say that every Druid, or Aztec, or Ancient Jew, or Pigmy, (list goes on and on) from these ancient cultures were absolutely Evil? The only way that we can judge this, is from our CURRENT worldview, in our CURRENT times, with all of our CURRENT value systems as an indicator of right/wrong, good/evil. If we had lived back then, in those times, who knows how we would have thought. Or what we would have done. Remember, these cultures hadn't even heard of Jesus Christ, or the Bible, or the Ten commandments, yet. So they couldn't evaluate their actions in light of judeochristian values. Only by the values of their own society in that day and age. Subjectivity.

Flar's Freyja

October 18th, 2002, 12:16 PM

Originally posted by Phoenix_Blue
Hairy, indeed. :) I'm going to hop in at this point to provide my own insight.

I would like to see more Christians make judgments based on the actions a person commits. If good works are truly the sign of a true salvation, shouldn't doing good things be smiled upon no matter the faith of the person doing it? Too frequently, this is not what happens. . . and the world, I think, is poorer for it.

I agree, and I also have questions about those who do good works with the sole motivation and goal of getting into heaven. The motivation should come from love and compassion for our fellow beings and without attempting to earn reward (hey, didn't Jesus say that somewhere?) I know people of all faiths who are wonderful humanitarians. The one who stands out most in my mind was our Volunteer Coordinator at my previous job in Child Welfare. She ran a huge Chriistmas for Kids program and made sure that no child in foster care went without Christmas presents. She worked all the way up until midnight on Christmas eve. She was Jewish.

As for salvation - are we not all human and imperfect? My personal philosophy is that we are here to make mistakes, learn from them and often deal with the consequences. I feel that as long as we are making our best effort to perform right action and make adjustments to our behavior when we do make mistakes, then the Divine does not fault us. I have a very hard time swallowing the concept that someone who lives their life in this manner is going to burn in hell because they are not "saved" by some Christian standards.

I also have a problem with the stance that the Divine is a wrathful, punishing force. I believe that every single illness, death, disorder or disaster occurs to be of teaching value to those involved and are frequently "blessings in disguise." As I said in the beginning of the thread, I am secure that I am loved and protected always.

BTW, Shaz - No, you did not offend me at all. Those criticisms of Catholicism came from Assembly of God and Pentecostal churches that I attended, not from anything you stated. I attended them anyway for a while, and felt that there was something more spiritual in their church services than I had found in the Catholic church. I feel that participation in these religions was a necessary step on my spiritual journey and feel blessed to have had the opportunity to investigate so many avenues. I came away from all of them with something of value.

This is a good discussion and I'm pleased to see that it hasn't become heated.

Edited to insert missing word

Phoenix Blue

October 18th, 2002, 12:42 PM

Originally posted by Freyja
I agree, and I also have questions about those who do good works with the sole motivation and goal of getting into heaven. The motivation come from love and compassion for our fellow beings and without attempting to earn reward (hey, didn't Jesus say that somewhere?)
**smiles** The Gospels say that the people who do good things simply to be seen doing good things have already earned their reward: they have been seen doing good things. They receive no additional reward for their actions.

Yeah, I think motivation counts. But as long as someone's doing good for others, I really won't complain too much about the motivation. ;)

Belteshazzar

October 18th, 2002, 12:46 PM

Originally posted by Danustouch
If a Man walks in Jesus Footsteps, All of his life, emulating him in every deed, in every word, and indeed, in spirit. Then how can he not be saved? I understand that it is not deeds alone which save a man. Because many people will perform good deeds to acheive fame, recognition, or for other ulterior motives. But..when the deeds are backed up by a spirit as loving, pure, and kind as my Uncles Spirit, How can he now, be burning in hell?

Danustouch,

Thank you for opening up ans sharing that story. I really enjoyed reading it. I only wish I had someone like that in my life when I was a teen. Somoeone who would listen and cared.

Before I deal with this question, let me give you just a little background on me. I did not grow up in church or in a christian home. I came to Christ 3 1/2 years ago. Prior to that I knew nothing about Christianity and religion and I have had no formal education. So I am not partial to any doctrine or denomination, only Jesus Christ and the scriptures.

I am growing in Christ at an unusually fast pace, however there is much I am uncetian of concerning your question. In fact, it is the one question I want to have a confident answer about more that any other. However, If i don't get that answer, I can never forsake my savior, you have no idea what He has done for me. "For I *know* whom I have believed in, and I am convinced He is able to guard that which I have entrusted to Him against that day".

I consider Christian Universalism to be a good possibilty. This is not to be confused with "universalism" and certianly not ecumincalism. However, in Christian Universalism, everyone will be save at some point. This doctrine has a very sound basis. It is also based on accurate scholarship. Theologically it begins in the garden where man first disobeyed God. This disobedience was obviously planned for because "Jesus Christ was the Lamb that was slain before the foundations of the world". Also, it was God who planted the tree and made it desirable, and God has the "knowledge of good and evil". God's desire was to have offspring (Eph. 1:5) ...and "sons" if you will, have the attributes of their Father. ("son" refers to being like Christ, not "gender") The bible says it is God's will that "all men/mankind" be saved. I Cor 15 says that when Christ has put down all principality and power "God will be all in all".

So that is Christian Universalism in a nutshell. However, the problems arise when you began to deal with verses concerning "eternal" condemnation. This is where scholarship takes over. Universalist will argue that the greek word "aion" and it's adjetive form "aioian" mean "age" ...and it does. This is where we get the word "eon". "Aion" and "aionian" is often translated "eternity", "forever", "for ever an ever" ...when in fact it means an age which is a limited perion of time. However, some opponents argue that the "aion" that scripture speaks of is an "endless age" ...eternity. So you see, it is not easy.

Basically, Christian Universalist believe in a period of "chastisement" as opposed to hell. The purpose being to show unrepentant soul how much he'she needs God reguardless of how good that person may have been as an unbeliever. Obviously the degree of chastisement has to do with the spiritual condition of each person. Maybe this is what Jesus refered to when He spoke of a servant who recieved fewer lashes. So in the end God's Will will be done. In fact, in the last chapters of revelation we see that the gates are left "open", yet ther are those who are "outside". The scriptutes teach that Christians will be a "kingdom of priest". Since we can enter an exit New Jerusalem, it is possible that we might minister to those outside.

At any rate, even in Christian Universalism there is a need to evangelize. But as for your Uncle, I am not able to determine his spiritual condition, I can only examine mine. But I will say that the he, like the rest of us are sinners, and that all sin is against God. Since God is eternal, He has the knowledge of that sin until that sin is paid for and forgiven, then He cast it as far as east is from west and remembers it no more.

I am still praying for understanding, but until then I will follow Christ. I understand everything you have said because I struggle with that question as well. For the most part I lean towards Christian Universalism, but the key to Christian growth is trust not knowlegde.

I hope this helps.

shaz

Belteshazzar

October 18th, 2002, 01:10 PM

Originally posted by Phoenix_Blue
I would like to see more Christians make judgments based on the actions a person commits. If good works are truly the sign of a true salvation, shouldn't doing good things be smiled upon no matter the faith of the person doing it? Too frequently, this is not what happens. . . and the world, I think, is poorer for it.

Greetings Phoenix and welcome to the discussion!

There is no way I can keep up with all these responses, but I do appreciate them. I will just deal with the things that jump out at me, and if you feel like I am ignoring something just say so. :D

Pheonix makes some good points, but I think this quote from Martin Luther sums up the biblical postition.

Martin Luther-

Men judge the worker by the works; God judges the works by the worker.

In other words, only God knows the motive of the works which is what determines if the work is good or not. So I don't think we should "judge" people, only actions.

While I might not tell someone ..."your not saved, ..or your not a Christian" ......I don't have to believe they are just because they say so. Like I said, there are people in my church (not many) who seem to show up once a week to sit in sour in a pew. I don't believe they have Jesus. I believe all they have is dry as dust religion. In fact, they are usually the types who go around judging who is saved or not. (imho)

shalom,

shaz

Belteshazzar

October 18th, 2002, 01:19 PM

Originally posted by Freyja
This is a good discussion and I'm pleased to see that it hasn't become heated.

Ohh man ...what did you have to go and say that for. Don't ya know that now someone's going start a ruckus, then the trap door will fly open and I will fall into a serpent infested pit. Ahhh geepers scoob! ....this always happens to me. ;)

shaz

Flar's Freyja

October 18th, 2002, 01:19 PM

Originally posted by Belteshazzar
In other words, only God knows the motive of the works which is what determines if the work is good or not. So I don't think we should "judge" people, only actions.

While I might not tell someone ..."your not saved, ..or your not a Christian" ......I don't have to believe they are just because they say so. Like I said, there are people in my church (not many) who seem to show up once a week to sit in sour in a pew. I don't believe they have Jesus. I believe all they have is dry as dust religion. In fact, they are usually the types who go around judging who is saved or not. (imho)

shalom,

shaz

I agree completely, Shaz. Living here in the Bible belt, I see too many who visit the building once or twice a week and act like the rest of the world the rest of the week. I have several friends who are Christian and really live their lives that way, "walking the talk." I admire and respect them tremendously, although we're on different paths. Or are we?

Danustouch

October 18th, 2002, 01:29 PM

No..it doesn't really help. The information was interesting. However, the simple fact is, my Uncle would scoff at the entire concept of needing a personal savior. To him..Love, Patience, Forgiveness, kindness, THOSE are mankinds saviors. Knowing my uncle, as I do...I know that he was a very strongwilled, individual.

And the thought that he could be punished, in any way shape or form for his refusal to accept Jesus as his lord and master, or YHVH as his God, is truly repugnant to me. No matter how you phrase it, it is repugnant to me.

I can see that your path means alot to you. And that you are certain of your faith. I applaud that, for if it makes sense to you, if it has helped you to become a better person, if it has comforted you in times of great sorrow, and given you inspiration to accomplish great things..then So Be It. I'm very Glad for you. I'm always glad to see anybody doing what they are intended to do.

However, for me, the concept of God as needing to punish us as wayward children, is one that I cannot embrace. Especially when I see such wonderful people as my Uncle in this world, living a life which could only GLORIFY the divine. And yet, because he refuses to say a few short words, and claim one name, he is "punished?".

Obviosly, I don't know everything that he has ever done in his life. However, when I look through the ten commandments, I can honestly say that I never ONCE witnessed him breaking a single one of those commandments. Not even so much as coveting his neighbors wife or goods. If he ever DID have such charachter flaws, I could perhaps say that he might have done them as a teen. (though i have no evidence of this). However, repentence isn't just words, as we've already said. It is actions. If he ever DID
break one of those commandments, if he ever DID fall short of
the example that Christ supposedly set, I never once witnessed it. Which to me, indicates that he "repented" of any past wrong doings in his life. He improved himself, he learned his lesson, and he turned away from them. That is what a contrite spirit does. That is what redemption is.

I'm not debating this issue with you because I'm longing to have it answered so that I can return to Christianity. I'm debating this issue with you, so that you can see one of the reasons that I chose paganism, over Christianity, as my own path. What Phoenix Blue says, makes sense to me. Everything in life, follows patterns. I see a pattern in nature of tragedies happening, for no
particular reason ...certainly not due to any "Sin" a man might commit. Tragedies, are not Punishment. Not from divinity, anyway. They simply are. My Uncles Colon Cancer, was a tragedy. His death, a tragedy. His LIFE on the other hand, was a miracle. Any devine being, in my concept of divinity, would never allow such a wonderful human being to exist on this plane, to touch as many lives as he did, and then turn around and punish him, for his lack of assuming a label. That's in my worldview, at least :)

The concept of Universal Redemption, is one I've always had trouble accepting. To me, it's almost like a parent saying "It's too bad if you don't like brussell sprouts. You're going to eat them anyway!" and shoving a spoonful in their mouths. If a person, such as I ..Honestly chooses NOT to accept Christianity, and NOT to accept Christ as a Lord or Savior, then the mere suggestion that Someday, I'll see the "error" of my ways, and accept him anyway, is foreighn, and quite honestly, offensive (no..you didn't offend me. The concept itsself offends me). I'll say it here, and now. My Goddess is Danu. My God is the Dagda. I don't need, or desire, any other personal God or Goddess, or Divine Savior. And I'll probably say the same words, over and over again, when I leave this plane, and move onto the next. To assume that I will someday learn my lesson, is to me, patronizing. (I know that was not your intent, and i haven't taken offense at your words, you were only explaining a theory).

Belteshazzar

October 18th, 2002, 02:21 PM

Originally posted by Danustouch
No..it doesn't really help. The information was interesting. However, the simple fact is, my Uncle would scoff at the entire concept of needing a personal savior. To him..Love, Patience, Forgiveness, kindness, THOSE are mankinds saviors. Knowing my uncle, as I do...I know that he was a very strongwilled, individual.

D-

That is the whole point. What the concept of sin really boils down to is declaring independance from your creator, God. Sure, you can do that, but the end is death. Therefore, if God is the author of life, then it is repugnant to think you don't need Him no matter who you are. Often pride is the motivation for good works. That is why God gave the 10 commandments, to show that NO ONE can keep them and that we need a savior. Sure ...we can invent a religion that does not require humility ....but what good is it in the end if it is only a human fabrication.

The theology of Christian Universalism does not force salvation on anyone. It simply suggest that if someone does not recieve Christ in this life, that God in His grace will chastise them by showing them what it is to be completely separated from Him. The point being that total separation is all it will take to humble anyone to see that God is what they really need and with Him is where they belong. I hope this is true, but the points you are making concerning pride make me wonder, because God will not force Himself on anyone, but He will honor your choice. That I am confident of.

And the thought that he could be punished, in any way shape or form for his refusal to accept Jesus as his lord and master, or YHVH as his God, is truly repugnant to me. No matter how you phrase it, it is repugnant to me.

BTW ...there is a branch of Universalist Christians that don't believe in chastisement or temporal punishment. However, this would mean that God is not just and condones every wicked act ever commited. Now that is repugnant.

As per your uncle, it does not matter what answer is given you because you are basing your entire conclusion on the fact that he did not accept Christ. So objectively speaking, your argument is backwards because your basing divine truth on your uncle's decision and lifestyle.

Anyway, I am not trying to give you a soothing answer, I am only relating to your struggle by sharing what I believe are reasonable possibilites based on scripture. I also have lost loved ones who did not recieve Christ, so your not the only one.

shalom and have a wonderful weekend,

shaz

Danustouch

October 18th, 2002, 02:50 PM

I don't base my entire spiritual view on the life of My Uncle. I emulate his loving, giving, caring , and other wonderful qualities to the best of my ability.

I don't feel the need to be Humble to God. My actions speak for the humility I feel in relation to the Miracle of Life that is given to every human being, whatever God or Goddess they choose to pray to :)

I don't feel the need to be Humble, and admit that I need YHVH as my God, or Jesus as my savior.

I don't personally believe that I need a savior, and I don't personally believe that most people need a savior. Perhaps you might need a savior, and that is why you chose your path :) To me, my own judgement, my own conscience, my own strength, my own wisdom and discernment is savior enough. Life teaches us lessons. If we are able to discern them, and see them for ourselves, why do we need a savior? I've taken my lessons in life, and I have learned from them. I'm in the process of learning a HUGE lesson in life, right now. And I'm not asking for a savior, to take away my mistakes, to make them not exist anymore. The lesson is being learned, and i'm working THROUGH them. And I will come out on the other side, when I have truly learned the lesson in them. I seek inspiration, in my God and Goddess, and perhaps comfort. But when I pray to them to "Help Me", I'm not asking them to make it all better, or take away the lesson. I am asking them to give me the strength, to learn it myself, to work through it myself.

In my spirituality, the Gods and Goddesses work WITH us. They don't do the work FOR us. And they don't reward us for good work, with an eternity in heaven, nor do they punish us for bad work, by an eternity in hell. WE make our own life. We make our own decisions, we make our own heaven or hell, right here, on this Earth, and since I believe in reincarnation, the one which follows this. I don't believe in one birth, and one death. I believe in many births, and many deaths, each one following the other, with the lessons learned from the life before.

That is why God gave the 10 commandments, to show that NO ONE can keep them and that we need a savior

Okay..this is a matter of personal interpretation, isn't it? Because in Jewish Theology (and of course, Jews believe in the Ten Commandments too), do not believe that we need Jesus Christ to take away our sins. If I recall correctly, there is a Holiday in the Jewish Calendar, a day of atonement, where they are supposed to take stock of their lives, and of all the sins that they have made, and repent for them. Again, repentence not in word alone, but in turning away from the sin they committed, and altering their lives in ways which will show true contrite spirit. I don't believe that the ten commandments were given so that people could see their own need for God. I believe that the ten commandments were given as a guideline that people should try to live up to, to improve quality of life on the planet. Nor do I actually believe that the ten commandments are the only laws that we must follow in life, or that they are the only VERSION of those laws which is binding.

For me, the law of "Do what thou wilt, but Harm None" works just fine. Because, this verse, to me, tells me not only "Don't Murder" "Dont' steal" "Don't lie" "Don't Covet", but makes me evaluate each of my actions in light of that one law, Harm None.

To me, the Ten Commandments is actually a simplification. It is an "ABC" of what not to do in life. For me, having my "Harm None" rule, allows me to evaluate things on my own, and take personal responsibility for the choices I make. It teaches me lessons, the hard way. And we often know that we learn lessons best, when they come with a heavy price. "Harm None" to me, also covers "Harming a persons emotions". it covers "Stealing somebodys boyfriend". It covers "Stepping on those who get in the way of my career", it covers "Manipulating others". and it covers "Intolerance". Those are all forms of harming people, which are not "Spelled out" in the Ten commandments. And i've had to evaluate my actions in situations, in light of all of the "In between the lines" words of the Harm None. Obviosly, I'm NOT perfect, and I have, and do screw up. But..when I do, I'm aware of it. I don't need a God or Goddess to point that out to me. The consequences of my action, and my own conscience point that out to me. And my contrite heart, makes a conscious decision NOT to repeat those actions, and to deal with their consequences.

Belteshazzar

October 18th, 2002, 03:10 PM

D-

Do you want to continue along this line of duscussion?

Personally, I am fine with it. However, I fear that in responding I may strike personal chords no matter how polite I might be.

I don't want to be in a position like I was earlier where I was accused of being judgemental. I must say that I have enjoyed the conversation thus far. I think it is challenging and healthy for all, so let me know.

shaz

Danustouch

October 18th, 2002, 03:25 PM

LOL..hmmmm...we don't HAVE to continue this line of discussion, as I'm pretty sure that it is obvios right now where our belief systems diverge. I've been enjoying it too. However, I can see your point, discussing differences is one thing, but, if it got to a point where you were posting bible verses which people would feel were condemning them, and urging them to repent, than yeah..I could see that the thread might get..uh...heated. So...we don't have to continue, though I'd be interested in seeing what others feel about it.

But..I would also like to know what other questions about Paganism you have, because that is the topic of the thread. :) If you are curious as to what we believe, or how we live, we'd love to help you understand who we are :) Trust me, our goal isn't to convert ya...just to allow you to understand us, and get to know us a little better :)

Belteshazzar

October 18th, 2002, 04:15 PM

Originally posted by Danustouch
but, if it got to a point where you were posting bible verses which people would feel were condemning them, and urging them to repent, than yeah..I could see that the thread might get..uh...heated.

D-

Actually that is not what I had in mind, rather I was going to challenge some of the statements you have made. So in this case, I will ask you questions based on this discussion in reference to Paganism.

If you are curious as to what we believe, or how we live, we'd love to help you understand who we are :)
I am mostly interested in *why* you believe. To me it seems that Paganism is an *option* for those who are disgruntled with Christianity, or have never truly understood the message. For example, you said "I don't base my entire spiritual view on the life of My Uncle." , which was not my argument. I suggested you have rejected Christianity based on your uncle's life which would not be rational to do.

Trust me, our goal isn't to convert ya...just to allow you to understand us, and get to know us a little better :)

LOL ...don't worry about that, I am wearing the armor of Ephesians 6. ;)

I have enjoyed our dialogue so far, and look forward to learning more about what you believe and why. No matter what, I will respect your beliefs even tho I might challenge them from a skeptical point of view.

I am not sure when I will be able to get back. Unless I respond late at night, it may not be till early next week. So at some point I will post more questions.

Have a great weekend.

shaz

(p.s. I need to "double post" so my post doesn't end up on the darker green background ....why can't the colors of the board be "subjective"? ...LOL)

MammaStar

October 18th, 2002, 04:49 PM

I'm jumping in here real quick only to answer the part of *why* I chose the Pagan path.

I've always been Pagan, deep down. I was a child who was more at home in the woods, among nature. My mother, an Italian Catholic woman, pointed me toward my path, when I was very young, though she didn't realize it until a few months ago. When my parents first started to have problems with their marriage, my mother had taken my brother & I with her while she stayed at my Grandparents home. One day, she took us downtown to the Catholic Church she grew up in. I remember her telling us to be very quiet and very good. We sat in the pew goofing around while she sat in one a few rows ahead of us praying. Later, as we were walking back to my Grandparents house, she said to me "I want you to remember this Tina, you have TWO mothers. Me and Mother Mary." As I got older, and she sent me to CCD class, I mentioned how much I loved Mother Mary. That she was my mother and I liked her better than Jesus. Well, ALL my teachers came down on me, telling me it was wrong. As I sat in church, every single sunday I kept hearing I was *wrong* for what I believed in. How can in one breath, I be taught that Noah took TWO of every animal because that was the way, yet, I'm told to follow only ONE God, and that ONE is a HE not a HE & SHE. or an ALL, as I believe now.

Yes, I had a hard time with my Christian faith growing up. Paganism *found* me. I became curious, I read and then read some more, and read some more and realized, everything that I had believed in and done through out my teens and young adult life was Pagan. When I came to the realization that I was a Witch, I felt, as our beloved Site God has said, as I "came home". I've NEVER, EVER EVER felt that way sitting in church. Even when I was a small child. And I still how the belief that basically, deep down, Christians, Muslims, Jewish, Pagan, Witch, etc. we all get to the same destination. My way isn't better than anyone else's. It's only right for me.

Danustouch

October 18th, 2002, 11:09 PM

Well, you seem to have forgotten that I mentioned there were many other things that made me decide that Christianity wasn't the path for me. What happened with my Uncle was merely the straw that broke the camels back. It acted as a final motivating factor.

Basically, I'd always felt that certain beliefs that I held, were at odds with Christianity. For instance, I'd always believed in Luck, and Omens, and Signs. Most of the pastors I'd met in my life, had told me that these things were wrong, and "Of the Devil.". That I should seek wisdom only through the Bible, and Prayer. That's another part of it. I have always had a thirst, and hunger for knowledge. I find knowledge in all sorts of religions, and beliefs. In the poetry of Thoreau, one of my favorite authors, in the writings of the Tao Te Ching, and so many others. When I would point out similarities between theologys' presented in other religions, or in other written sources, and Christianity, I was told, again, that it was wrong... that anything that didnt come directly from the bible, was not true knowledge. This really didn't settle well with me. I felt I could hear wisdom and truth, when I read them.

Anyway. Like LdyStarlite, I also felt the lack of a feminine power within Christianity. As a matter of fact, being part of some of the more fundamentalist and evangelical branches of Christianity, the role of the female was often subjugated to that of the male. And there just didn't seem to be any "Balance" within it...and there are certain issues that a woman goes through in life, that it is very difficult to approach a "Father Figure" with. At times like that, I felt I needed a female archetype, or deity to connect with. But, not being Catholic, and being taught that praying to any other energy would have been considered idolotry, this made it very difficult. Many times, I felt a sort of "loneliness" in praying to a Male Energy. Like I wasn't really understood. This was only confirmed in the patriarchal set up I found in the Christian religion in general.

I also struggled with certain things which were considered "Sinful" within Christianity. For instance, and this is just ONE for instance, the issue of "Honoring they mother and father". When I was younger, I lived in a house that was extremely oppressive. My parents were both mentally and verbally abusive. Their marriage, a shambles, and basically, both of them suffered from a LOT of mental and emotional issues. It became very difficult to Honor my Mother and Father, when often times, they were acting in ways which were completely beneath my Honor. For instance, both of them, are fairly Racist. My mother is more a passive racist than my father. He's just a straight out there racist. Can you imagine a person who believes in their whole heart, that ALL men and women are created equal, and that the Divine is Colorblind, being told that if they went to a school dance with their Black American friend, they would have their arm broken, and be disowned? Well...that was only one example. I cannot honor a mother and father, who believe, and act in such ways. I've never believed that I should "Obey" them, merely because they are my parents. Parents can be wrong too. This is only ONE example.

I'd always felt a great connection with the Earth, and with Nature, in general. To me, Christianity did not place all of nature, in equality with humanity. To me, all forms of life are sacred..and equal. While Christianity's message was that "God gave Adam Dominion over....."etc.

There were also the things that I simply had not made my mind up over (at the time), Such as Abortion. Such as Missionary work (I'm personally of the opinion that cultures, and heritage need to be preserved. And missionary work was in direct conflict with this belief). And many other things. Christianity seemed to maintain one view on these subjects, while at that point, I was undecided.

Basically, to sum it up, I have always been a person who once committed to something, must follow it with my entire heart. When I was a Christian, I found that nearly impossible. I couldn't just blindly agree to things, or accept them, when I either had doubts in my heart about them, or outright disagreed with them. I found that as a Christian, I was living in a perpetual state of self doubt, and even at times, self loathing, because I was attempting to live up to an ideal that I simply could not reconcile myself with. To me, life is too short to live that way. To have to repent, merely for being yourself. So...all of these factors, combined with even more, and combined with the story of my uncle, just lead me to feel that Christianity was not for me.

I left College, I went through a brief "Spiritual Wandering" where you could have called me "godless" and then walked into a wiccan book store one day, because of them advertising incense. I picked up a book off the shelf..."The truth about witchcraft today", began reading, and realized that many of the beliefs that were held in Paganism, were either ideals I had always agreed with myself, or that I had always been fascinated by. What I read in that book, hit a chord within me. It felt..."Right". So..I began to study, and here I am ..Seven years later. That's right. Seven Years. Hardly a Phase, hardly a "test drive". This is who I am. And spiritually, I know that I am in the right place..for myself :)

Flar's Freyja

October 18th, 2002, 11:33 PM

Originally posted by Danustouch
Basically, I'd always felt that certain beliefs that I held, were at odds with Christianity. For instance, I'd always believed in Luck, and Omens, and Signs. Most of the pastors I'd met in my life, had told me that these things were wrong, and "Of the Devil.". That I should seek wisdom only through the Bible, and Prayer. That's another part of it. I have always had a thirst, and hunger for knowledge. I find knowledge in all sorts of religions, and beliefs. In the poetry of Thoreau, one of my favorite authors, in the writings of the Tao Te Ching, and so many others. When I would point out similarities between theologys' presented in other religions, or in other written sources, and Christianity, I was told, again, that it was wrong... that anything that didnt come directly from the bible, was not true knowledge. This really didn't settle well with me. I felt I could hear wisdom and truth, when I read them.

Shortly before I found this path, I was attending a Baptist church with my son. He had recently "accepted the Lord" and had been baptized, and I was attending more to give him my support than to spiritually nurture myself. In fact, there was little chance of being spiritually fed in this particular church since it seemed that every single sermon was about raising money to build or buy a bigger building. During one particular "message," the pastor was talking about Buddhists and Yogis. He said that they had no joy. I'd been able to tolerate most of what he preached but this was very hard to tolerate. I have been practicing Yoga and meditation for years and have had some encounters with Buddhism and have had very positive spiritual experiences, including being filled with joy. I strongly resented his even discussing this topic when he had absolutely nothing with which to base his opinion on except his opinion.

As for the only truth being from the Bible - well, all too often different denominations and individuals manipulate its meaning to fit their own agendas. When I did study the Bible, I frequently found the scriptures to mean different things to me at different times in my life and I took those meanings as coming from my intuition and connection with the Divine.

Belteshazzar

October 21st, 2002, 08:01 AM

Originally posted by Freyja
During one particular "message," the pastor was talking about Buddhists and Yogis. He said that they had no joy. I'd been able to tolerate most of what he preached but this was very hard to tolerate.

Freyja,

First I want to say I really appreciate the honesty of your post. Secondly, sometimes ministers speak of things they no nothing about, not realizing there are people in the audience that know more than they. However, sometimes, those in the audience misunderstand the message because they don't know scripture. But I was not there, so I cannot make any determination either way in this case. There is a possiblilty he was contexually refering to this verse (and others)

John 15:11
These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full.

First, joy and happiness are two different things. Happiness is usually associated with circumstances (relationships of all kinds) and conditions (prosperity or contentness). Joy is enternal. The ability to have peace during the storm. To be able to sing and rejoice after being beaten and thrown into prison like Paul and Silas did. To be at peace when you have lost everything.

So more than likely, he was not saying that they did not have joy as the world defines "joy", but they did not have "Christ's joy" that only comes from Him. Anyone can be at peace if they isolate themselves from trouble. In scripture, peace is NOT the absence of trouble, but the presence of Christ in the midst of trouble.

Again, I was not there so your complaint could very well be legitimate.

shaz

Belteshazzar

October 21st, 2002, 08:15 AM

Originally posted by Danustouch
When I would point out similarities between theologys' presented in other religions, or in other written sources, and Christianity, I was told, again, that it was wrong...
D-

I am going to ask you some questions based on your post. But first I would like to make a comment. You are right. There are a number of similarities between theology and religion, but there are also a number of contradictions. Journalist Steve Turner sums up the "world's" philosophy on this quite well.

We believe there's something in
horoscopes, UFO's and bent spoons;
Jesus was a good man
just like Buddha, Mohammed, and ourselves.
He was a good moral teacher
although we think His good morals were bad.

We believe that all religions are basically the same--
at least the one that we read was.
They all believe in love and goodness.
They only differ on matters of
creation, sin, heaven, hell, God, and salvation.

Again, this is why I have such a problem with subjectivity, common sense goes right out the window. All religion cannot be "right", even if there are similarites.

....and it is okay to be "wrong" .....because we all are sometimes. ;)

Now, back to my questions.

Belteshazzar

October 21st, 2002, 09:09 AM

Originally posted by Danustouch
Anyway. Like LdyStarlite, I also felt the lack of a feminine power within Christianity

This deserves another thread altogether. I intend to do that as soon as I find some time, because there is so mouch confussion about his.

I also struggled with certain things which were considered "Sinful" within Christianity. For instance, and this is just ONE for instance, the issue of "Honoring they mother and father". When I was younger, I lived in a house that was extremely oppressive.

Again, another misunderstanding. "Honor thy mother and father" does not mean you must "be like them" or even like the things they do. Again, another thread, because what it boils down to is if you believe in the soveignty of God or not.

For instance, both of them, are fairly Racist. My mother is more a passive racist than my father. He's just a straight out there racist. Can you imagine a person who believes in their whole heart, that ALL men and women are created equal, and that the Divine is Colorblind,

Of course God is colorblind. Does the scripture not say He made mankind in "His" image? Does not scripture teach that we are all decendants of the same man (ha'adam)? This is a no brainer ..."let God be true and every man a liar". ;)

being told that if they went to a school dance with their Black American friend, they would have their arm broken, and be disowned? Well...that was only one example.

uh ohh ....Now your are in conflict with your own philosophy on morality. Do your parents not have the right to be "morally subjective" here?

What if the majority of society deems that white girls shouldn't date black boys? ....doesn't that fall in the category of the subjective moral conscience?

You must admitt, you have a "doozy" of a conflict here between your religious philosophy and what you know is right or wrong. You have just demonsrtated the point I set out to make earlier.

I cannot honor a mother and father, who believe, and act in such ways. I've never believed that I should "Obey" them, merely because they are my parents. Parents can be wrong too. This is only ONE example.

Absolutely! Of course parents can be wrong. I am a parent, and sometimes I am wrong. The scripture never say " honor thy mother anf father because they are "right" ....or "christian". We are told to honor our mother and father because in doing so, we honor God our creator. Moreover, in doing so you might be an example to your parents. God's plan is indeed perfect, the only problem is we are to proud to "trust" Him and take Him at His Word. The last thing God wants us to be is a rebel.

I'd always felt a great connection with the Earth, and with Nature, in general. To me, Christianity did not place all of nature, in equality with humanity.

You are right. Christianity does not teach that we are "equal" with nature, but Christianity does teach us to appreciate nature. In fact, we are "stewards" of nature and our environment and will be held accountable as such. But in Christianity, we do not worship the "created things", but the Creator who created them.

Question: Do you feel that your uncle's worth and value was equal to that of a tree?

There were also the things that I simply had not made my mind up over (at the time), Such as Abortion.

You said earlier that "child sacrfice" was acceptable to the moral conscience of primitive culture, but not to modern culture.

Have we not progressed from the "first trimester" abortion to the "partial birth" abortion. In fact, legislaters are now trying to prevent "after birth" abortion. May I suggest to you that we have performed nearly 40 million child sacrifices in the US on the "altar of convienence".

How does this not contradict you theory on the subjective moral conscience?

Such as Missionary work (I'm personally of the opinion that cultures, and heritage need to be preserved. And missionary work was in direct conflict with this belief). And many other things. Christianity seemed to maintain one view on these subjects, while at that point, I was undecided.

The biblical mandate for missionary work was to share the good news of Jesus Christ, not to change tradition. Just watch how Paul did it. We are free in Christ to worship as we choose, as long as it does not change the message.

Messianic Judaism is a perfect example.

I couldn't just blindly agree to things, or accept them, when I either had doubts in my heart about them, or outright disagreed with them.
How do you feel that you have not "blindly" followed in Paganism?

...or even "blindly" followed your own personal agenda and desires?

Do you see what I am getting at?

I found that as a Christian, I was living in a perpetual state of self doubt, and even at times, self loathing, because I was attempting to live up to an ideal that I simply could not reconcile myself with.

ahhh. ...now we are on to something.

First, to say "I am an ex-christian", is a theoretically a scriptural immpossibilty. Jesus said "you must be born again", and He said it to Nicodemus, who was as leagalistic and religious as a man could be. So there is nothing you could do to be a Christian outside being "born again", which is a sipitual re-birth that begins your spiritual life. To say you are an ex-christian, is to say you have been spiritually "un-birthed", which makes no sense at all.

Obviously what you and others like you are refering to is a time when to tried to follow the tenants of Christianity. The scripture is very clear that you cannot live the Chistian life or understand the scripture unless you have been born again. It is like trying to be financially wealthy without money.

As per your statement, it should now make perfect sense. I appreciate your honesty and open-ness, and I home I haven't offended you with mine. ;)

I am out of time for now, I will try to respond to more later. However, I did hang a few questions out there for ya, and have some more questions about Paganism as well.

shalom

shaz

Danustouch

October 21st, 2002, 11:10 AM

B-

Everything you are saying to me, is YOUR opinion, from YOUR scripture. NOT from MY experience, Nor, MY religion.

No...I do not follow my path blindly. I question it, and everything in it. Decide what makes sense to me. If it doesn't make sense, I don't adopt it. It just so happens that there is very little in my path that I DONT agree with. As for following my own agenda, Christians do the same. The only difference is that they, having the Bible as a "guidebook" label it as God's Agenda. Of course, this is a matter of FAITH, not Assuredness. The Bible "COULD" be true...and what you think is truth, just might be. However, you can only have faith in that while you are here. Until you die, you will have no "proof" of this. There is even a verse somewhere in the Bible saying that man should not assume to know the Mind of God. And yet, over and over again, I am confronted with Christians who are absolutely positive that they know the mind and will of God, from what is written in the Bible.

I must say, this is another thing which I have never understood. The Bible, is a "Devinely Inspired Book" according to your path. And yet, it was pieced together by MAN. MAN chose which books would be entered in, and which left out. And they chose these books, to support "Canon". That right there..is obviosly following an agenda. In fact, if you look at biblical history, The council of Laodicea, Council of Nicea, etc, it seems to have VERY little to do with "Devine Inspiration" and more to do with the political, monitary, and religious Agenda of the Early Catholic Church. Man is fallible. How many wrong translations have been found in the Bible over time. Sometimes, these mistranslations have been so grave, that the entire "meaning" of the passage has been changed over history, SO much, that the true spirit of the message has been lost. So, from the way that I see it...you cannot know for certain that anything that you believe is Gods Agenda, is 100%, Absolute, Infallible Reality. You only have "Faith" that it is. Just as I take my religious belief, on Faith.

As for the term "Ex-Christian" ...uh...I am whatever I believe myself to be. I have completely turned away from a relationship with Christianity, and even with Christ Himself. I am no longer "Of Christ". I don't witness to his Mercy and Grace, I do not act in accordance with His will in all things, etc. That makes me an "Ex Christian" in my viewpoint. As for your statement of being born again, and how that applies to this "Ex Christian" Statement...again, you are limiting yourself to your OWN practices. What about the other branches of Christianity which do not place such an emphasis on being Born Again? For instance, my parents are Congregationalist Christian. There is no specific teaching about being "Born Again" in the Congregationalist Denomination. You could perhaps look at Baptismal as a way of being Born Again, but within the Congregationalist Church, Baptismal is more a public statement of the PARENTS wishes for their child (since they mainly do infant baptismals), rather than what the Child has chosen. And as for Confirmation, yes...one might say at that point, the Child is given the Choice as to whether to follow in Christs footsteps, or not. But, in all reality, MOST of the people I have met who are Confirmed into the Church, are Confirmed into THAT CHURCH. It doesn't have too much to do with whether or not they've really decided that they want to walk in the footsteps of Jesus for the rest of their lives, but as to whether or not they want full membership priviledges within THAT church. For the Record, I was never baptized NOR confirmed, as I refused to do anything, simply to appease orthodox tradition.

As for God not wanting anyone to be a Rebel. I have to say, I don't agree at all. There are numerous times in the Bible, where Christians are called upon to take a stance against the leaders/laws of their time. If there is something wrong, and you are being asked to do something wrong (i.e, something which you feel to be NON in accordance with Gods Will), You ARE asked to rebel against it. In old times, look at the case of Martin Luther, nailing the treatise to the church door..and the beginning of the Protestant Reformation. In Modern Times, Look at Martin Luther King Jr...standing up for Civil Rights, because Racism is an affont to God. When somebody is asking you to go against your own morality, it is your responsibility to "Rebel" against that.

Your talking of the "Honor thy mother and father" and saying that it is a misinterpretation, and yet everything you just said, was exactly what the ministers said in the past to me. Do it...not for your parents sake, but for Gods sake. IMO...Bull! I know that Racism brings no glory to the Devine. So why would I obey it, and honor it?

As for that being subjective morality..Yes, It's subjective. The simple fact is, the MAJORITY of our Modern, American Society, has been taught that Racism is wrong. DESPITE My parents beliefs, I learned through media, through contact with other people, through the school system, etc, that Racism Is Wrong (in this society, in this culture). My "Subjective" morality is based on what I have learned it to be. I made up my own mind about what was Moral, regarding that. I chose between my parents values, and the values I saw presented elsewhere. The values expressed elsewhere in society, made more sense to me, than the moral values taught to me by my parents, in this instance. As human beings, we are NOT only the product of our parents, but of society. Actually, more often than not, you'll find that MOST children listen to other sources besides their parents for morality lessons, because there is such tremendous conflict between parents and children in the formative years. Parents would like you to do what they tell you to do, and be who they want you to be, because they are your parents. They can PUNISH you, if you don't. To test the boundaries of independence, to establish their own identity, children look elsewhere for their ideas about the world, as well as to their parents. And what they usually come out with, is a little bit of their parents, and a LOT of other people.

IMO...we cannot Honor God, by Honoring our Mother and Father, if our Mother and Fathers' actions and attitudes do not bring Glory to God. (Or ...Goddess, in my case). I cannot Hate them for it. But..I cannot abide by their wishes, just because they wish it. Or because God tells me to. Doesn't that put God somehow in conflict with himself???????????????

My Uncles worth and Value, as equal to a tree? This is a very complex question, which I could probably take a page to answer. Obviosly, to me, because he had such a prominant role in my life, no. However, to the birds which nest in its branches, and eat the seeds its dropped, the Earth which is nourished by its fallen leaves, the shade that is given to plants which depend on that shade to grow, etc...That tree DEFINITELY has more value than my Uncles Life. That is why I must try to live in harmony with the trees, the earth, the plants, the animals, as much as possible. Because again, it's subjectivity. My Uncle may mean more to me than the pinetree in my back yard. But to other living creatures an organisms, this is not so. In order to peacefully cohabitate with the other lifeforms on this earth, I have to aknowledge the importance of that tree to all of THEM, and respect it.

Incidentally, many Pagans do not actually worship the creation. They work WITH the creation, and honor it as part of themselves, as equal with themselves, as a partner to themselves, and worship what they think of as the creator of this creation, Too. Though, you are right, some actually do not have a concept of a devine creator, and thus worship the creation alone. I worship my God and Goddess. To do so, I aknowledge, work with, and honor the Earth.

As for Abortion, and Child Sacrifice. Spare me. It is not the same thing, and well you know it. Child Sacrifice was done in a specific ritual format, for religious reasons for the cultures in which they were done. Abortion is done for a multitude of reasons, and many of them difficult ones to understand..unless you are in the shoes of the woman. If you want to debate abortion, please visit "The Political Pagan" as there are a couple threads there which might interest you. If you are merely concerned with shoving YOUR opinion of abortion down my throaght, then..we will simply stop this discussion here. As a woman who has HAD an abortion, for very complex reasons. None of them 'religious' and not so clearly cut "Convenience", I think we should stay away from this debate. My reason for bringing this up, was not to debate the right or wrongs of abortion, but simply to point out that at the time I was a Christian, i had NOT made up my mind about this topic. And could not reconcile myself to having this moral absolute shoved in my face, when I could see a million shades of grey in the situation.

The biblical mandate for missionary work was to share the good news of Jesus Christ, not to change tradition. Just watch how Paul did it. We are free in Christ to worship as we choose, as long as it does not change the message.

So..those cultures who absorbed christ INTO their traditions, would be left alone. But those Cultures who refused to, had to be hacked away, to extinction? Boy...that one justifies the Crusades, eh? And all those indiginous cultures annhillated in the Amazon! Oh..and Slavery! Oh..and wait..all the Native Americans being forced onto reservations, made to cut their hair, forget their language, forget their dances, their legends...And let us not forget the Celts, who were once forbid to speak in the tongue of the Gael...and who were burned at the stake...Wow..so THATS the justification??????????? They wouldn't accept Christ..so....There ya go! Too bad. They could have INCORPORATED Christ, and we'd have let them alone...but...they didn't...so...OFF WITH THEIR HEADS!!! And lets face it...although you might say that ancient christians obviosly didn't follow christs own example of missionary work....ummm..I couldn't really say that it wouldn't happen allllllll over again, if there wouldn't be such a huge human outcry against it. Just Look at the struggle in Ireland, today, between Catholics and Protestants. Just look at the struggle in Ghandi's day, in India. Just look at the tensions in Israel, between Arab, and Jew. Just look at the Tension in Kashmir, between Hindu, and Muslim. Humanity has always screwed such things up. "Follow MY way...or ELSE!"

I've tried to be extremely patient, in answering your questions. But...while you "PRESENT" yourself, as merely curious, and wanting to understand, by your replies, you are proving that you don't want to understand, you don't want to accept the answers. You want to NEGATE the answers, and you want to remain in ignorance. If you want to ask questions..go right ahead. But if you just want to poke holes in peoples answers..then you can do so without me. I'll give you another target for now. We were all willing to embrace you, and to give you honest answers to your questions. It's becoming clear that all that YOU want to do, is to debate them to the point where you find holes, and then try to change our minds. (i.e...Convert us).

I'm sorry it's come to this. I would have liked us to both have enough respect to be able to accept that we think differently, and to move on. But...it doesn't seem you are willing to do that.

So Be It.

Good day.

Flar's Freyja

October 21st, 2002, 11:38 AM

Originally posted by Belteshazzar
Freyja,

First I want to say I really appreciate the honesty of your post. Secondly, sometimes ministers speak of things they no nothing about, not realizing there are people in the audience that know more than they. However, sometimes, those in the audience misunderstand the message because they don't know scripture. But I was not there, so I cannot make any determination either way in this case. There is a possiblilty he was contexually refering to this verse (and others)

John 15:11
These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full.

First, joy and happiness are two different things. Happiness is usually associated with circumstances (relationships of all kinds) and conditions (prosperity or contentness). Joy is enternal. The ability to have peace during the storm. To be able to sing and rejoice after being beaten and thrown into prison like Paul and Silas did. To be at peace when you have lost everything.

So more than likely, he was not saying that they did not have joy as the world defines "joy", but they did not have "Christ's joy" that only comes from Him. Anyone can be at peace if they isolate themselves from trouble. In scripture, peace is NOT the absence of trouble, but the presence of Christ in the midst of trouble.

Again, I was not there so your complaint could very well be legitimate.

shaz

Ah, but the goal of Yoga is to become one with god, and the joy that I have felt during peak meditation and spiritual experiences was similar to and of a higher quality than what I felt when speaking in tongues and dancing around the Pentecostal church. This particular pastor was only repeating what he'd heard or read about and had not studied the issues any further.

Again, I respect all paths and feel that whichever path we are drawn to is the one on which we are meant to serve the Divine. Whether an individual is truly spiritual or is practicing "dry, dusty spirituality" (I think that's what you said in an earlier post) is evident in the way they live their lives and relate to others. I have not denounced the god of my childhood or Jesus Christ. I simply practice my spirituality in a different manner which has not only benefited my own spiritual development but has positively affected everyone else in my life. My fiance' is Christian. When he is in need, I also pray to his god, and I have also joined in prayer with ministers who visit him in the hospital. My son has studied Wicca and decided to remain Christian. I am pleased that he has at least some spiritual foundation. After all, I was raised in church and may not be on ANY path at all if this hadn't been presented to me as a child.

Which prompts me to offer another huge can of worms for y'all to chew on:

Several of the churches I attended maintained that once you were "saved" and had accepted the Lord, that you never had to do it again. One would always be redeemed. Well.......if an individual accepted the Lord and rededicated themselves several times and even was baptized twice or more, and then moved on to another path........would this be negated if salvation through Jesus Christ alone turned out to be the "truth"?

flar7

October 21st, 2002, 12:39 PM

Belteshazzar ~ I hope you continue posting despite Danu's
last post. I have enjoyed your arguments. Although I dont
agree with everything, they are well put and polite. A lot of Christians who visit this board have no interest in discussion,
only blasting away and damning everyone. I appreciate polite
conversation. Its one of the reasons I came to this board. My
presence here has almost nothing to do with religion and everthing
to do with friends and intellectual conversation........or just plain
silliness.(as I am a frequenter of that thread)

So, please continue.:)

Belteshazzar

October 21st, 2002, 05:50 PM

Originally posted by flar7
Belteshazzar ~ I hope you continue posting despite Danu's
last post. I have enjoyed your arguments. Although I dont
agree with everything, they are well put and polite. A lot of Christians who visit this board have no interest in discussion,
only blasting away and damning everyone. I appreciate polite
conversation. Its one of the reasons I came to this board. My
presence here has almost nothing to do with religion and everthing
to do with friends and intellectual conversation........or just plain
silliness.(as I am a frequenter of that thread)

So, please continue.:)

flar7,

Thanks for your encouraging comments. However, as much as I would like to continue my dialogue with Danu- .....it seems that she is not comfortable with it, and I understand.

So feel free to open any can of worms you like. ;)

I have really enjoyed my dialogue with everyone on this board. (and that certianly includes D-) As long as I am welcomed, I would love to continue conversing here and learning more about the varying ideas and beliefs of everyone.

Danustouch,

It seems I have offended you in some way. Sorry, that was not my intention. I was simply responding to your comments. As for abortion, I did not personaly attack you in any way. The debate or discussion should always be directed to the topic and not the person, however I had no way of knowing that was a sensative subject for you. I thought it was safe to discuss since you brought it up.

Again, sorry if I made you feel threatened or uncomfortable in any way.

peace and blessings,

shaz

Belteshazzar

October 21st, 2002, 06:04 PM

Originally posted by Freyja
Which prompts me to offer another huge can of worms for y'all to chew on:

Several of the churches I attended maintained that once you were "saved" and had accepted the Lord, that you never had to do it again. One would always be redeemed. Well.......if an individual accepted the Lord and rededicated themselves several times and even was baptized twice or more, and then moved on to another path........would this be negated if salvation through Jesus Christ alone turned out to be the "truth"?

Freyja,

Thanks for the bone! ;)

I will glady reply to your question as soon as I can get another hour. (I want to be sure to respond in clear and concise manner)

Here is a question for you or anyone else who would like to answer:

How do you pray? ( I would love a detailed understanding of Pagan prayer ...possibly with basis)

Also ....any testimony of prayers that have been specifically answered. (in other words ....you how you "know" somebody is listening)

see ya soon,

shaz

Flar's Freyja

October 21st, 2002, 06:26 PM

Originally posted by Belteshazzar
.......You are right. Christianity does not teach that we are "equal" with nature, but Christianity does teach us to appreciate nature. In fact, we are "stewards" of nature and our environment and will be held accountable as such. But in Christianity, we do not worship the "created things", but the Creator who created them.

........Have we not progressed from the "first trimester" abortion to the "partial birth" abortion. In fact, legislaters are now trying to prevent "after birth" abortion. May I suggest to you that we have performed nearly 40 million child sacrifices in the US on the "altar of convienence"............

shalom

shaz

It was probably not a good idea to bring up abortion in this thread as we have discussed it numerous times in other threads and it has always proved to be a controversial topic. It may come as a surprise to you that there are as many pagans who agree with your views, Shaz, as there are Christians.

As for the term "worship"..........and what we do or do not "worship"..........I am speaking for myself and not on behalf of all pagans, but I no longer consider my service to the Divine as "worship." I look upon the Divine as my mother and father and I respect it and am open to its guidance and accepting the consequences when I am not performing right action. As in the Norse tradition of Paganism, I believe that the Divine is with us at all times and is more like family that is here to support and love me than an invisible, threatening force that will strike me down when I don't live up to its expectations. I serve the Divine by responding to its guidance and performing action in my life for the good of others with no motivation to convert them. Each individual's path is between them and the Divine and is none of my business or concern. When I do something out of love for someone, if it benefits them enough to where they give thanks, fine, but if not, it's their karma, not mine. I do not make a practice of doing nice things for other people because I'm looking for a reward in "heaven" or to find favor with the Divine. The actions come from my heart and if I am rewarded, it is usually through natural consequences. I do believe that what we do comes back to us threefold, but it is not my motivation for attempting to live in a right manner.

I feel no need to convert or convince anyone that our way is the right way. This is nothing that I have any control over, nor do I want to influence anyone. I have a problem with "militant" pagans since I feel that most of them are actually rebelling or seeking attention. I simply wish that the negative sterotype of paganism would be changed and that more individuals, like yourself, would educate themselves to what it is and isn't so that better understanding could be achieved. I have explained my path to my children. They have an understanding of it, have no problem with my religion and have chosen to practice what they learned as small children when I took them to church and they attended vacation bible schools and summer church camps. As I said in an earlier post, they have a spiritual base and that's enough for me.

I appreciate and respect the earth, the sky, the trees, the grass, the water, the flowers, the animals and my fellow man. I have questions about every religion I have been a part of, including my current path. I take what I need, what makes sense to me and leave the rest. There are aspects of the pagan path that I disagree with, so I simply don't practice them. I spent many years searching and did not find spiritual nourishment in churches. I found it under an oak tree in a garden in the company of a gypsy.

It's said within physical fitness circles that the most effective exercise program is the one that you will do. I practice my spirituality more regularly, devoutly and effectively than I did when I attended churches, so I feel that this is where I need to be.

I agree with Flar that this is a good discussion and a lot of valid points have been brought up, and I also encourage you to continue.

Belteshazzar

October 22nd, 2002, 08:26 AM

hello Freyja,

Am I pronouncing that right? ..."freyja"? ......(just kidding)

Anyway, thanks for your reply. I hope you don't mind if I offer a few comments here, there are just a few things I would like to clear up.

Originally posted by Freyja
It was probably not a good idea to bring up abortion in this thread
..and I don't want to do it again. ;) Actually Danu- brought it up in her post before the last as one of her objections to Christianity. My comment on that was in reference to an earlier topic where we were discussing subjective morality and I posed the question of child sacrifice. The point I was making was that subjective morality was in conflict to an earlier statement she had made.

As for the term "worship"..........and what we do or do not "worship"..........I am speaking for myself and not on behalf of all pagans, but I no longer consider my service to the Divine as "worship." I look upon the Divine as my mother and father
In Christianity, worship is really WORTH-ship. It is simply a way of expressing what God means to you, not a demeaning human ritual. The scripture repeatedly criticiszes performing empty rituals. If God is real to a person, and that person adores God, worship is an instrument to express that love. God is not looking for a performance, He discerns the heart.

and I respect it and am open to its guidance and accepting the consequences when I am not performing right action. As in the Norse tradition of Paganism, I believe that the Divine is with us at all times and is more like family that is here to support and love me than an invisible, threatening force that will strike me down when I don't live up to its expectations.
I have the feeling that your impression of Christianity is stated above. I have yet to live up to God's expectations .....and I'm still here! ...but God does not spare me the consequences of my actions. Moreover, in His own way and time, He teaches me the better way like any good Father would do.

I serve the Divine by responding to its guidance and performing action in my life for the good of others with no motivation to convert them.
If you were starving, and you found an abundance of bread, wouldn't you have the compassion, excitement and motivation to tell others who are starving?

True evangelism in not try to "convert", that is God's job and it is a miracle only He can do. Evangelist-ministers are simply messengers.

If you some something valuable, you will want to share it.

I do not make a practice of doing nice things for other people because I'm looking for a reward in "heaven" or to find favor with the Divine. The actions come from my heart and if I am rewarded, it is usually through natural consequences.
The bible never suggest that we do nice things for "reward". In fact, this is why Christians will be judges for their works. As I quoted earlier, "God judges the works by the WORKER".

What scripture does teach is that there is rewards for those who put others first. "The first will be last, and the last will be first." Again, people can fool each other, but you can't fool God.

Also, everyhting that glitters isn't gold. Just because something carries the title "church" or "christian" does not mean it is so. That is why I love scripture, it always sets the record straight.

Earlier you asked ". Well.......if an individual accepted the Lord and rededicated themselves several times and even was baptized twice or more, and then moved on to another path........would this be negated if salvation through Jesus Christ alone turned out to be the "truth"?

Earlier in this thread, one of the contributors listed Christianity as one of the religion excluded from Paganism, and I agree. The likely reason being that Jesus made a claim of exclusivity ...."I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life, no man(mankind) comes to the Father but by me." (John 14:6) This being the reason many people hate Christians/Christianity. The common response "How dare anyone make such a claim" ...not "let's examine this claim to see if it true or "probable". Jesus said not to marvel because the world hates you (christian) ...because it hated me first. And we know that the servant is not greater than the master. Scripture says that ALL you choose to live Godly In-Christ shall sffer some form of persecutuion.

Bottom line. A true Christian NOT ONLY walks as He walked, but believe what he said, and He said He was the Way. (path)

There are many verses in reference to this question. However, none as clear as 1John 2:19 in specific reference to your question.

1John 2:19
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

This is not a judgement by the way, I am only telling you what scripture says on the subject.

peace and blessings,

shaz

Flar's Freyja

October 22nd, 2002, 02:38 PM

:) Whoo-eeee, that's a long reply! I'll have to get back to you when I've got time to really read it and respond.

Raevyn

October 22nd, 2002, 03:08 PM

Shaz;

Just wanted to drop in and let you know I'm still watching the thread but wandered out when Christianity came up because I'm really without knowledge on that subject. I considered myself Christian for a few years and even still am interested in it but I didn't want to make myself an idiot by pretending to know about the history and historical theology behind it. ;)

That said;

Originally posted by Belteshazzar
How do you pray? ( I would love a detailed understanding of Pagan prayer ...possibly with basis)

Also ....any testimony of prayers that have been specifically answered. (in other words ....you how you "know" somebody is listening)

I pray much like anyone else - sometimes I light a candle and incense. Sometimes the colour of the candle or the scent of the incense reminds me of what I'm praying for - for example I might think of blue and lavendar when I'm praying for healing so I use those.

The first time I prayed my dad would be ok when he went in for a single bypass - the next day they went in and found he could have a triple bypass and despite his diabetic complications and other health concerns he healed faster then most people.

I've prayed for his health many times, and now he's healing. I prayed for my mom to find work, and now she's working. I prayed recently for Goddess to help me undergo medical testing because I was afraid I couldn't handle it, and I went through it and so far tests have come out fine.

Illuminatus

October 22nd, 2002, 03:22 PM

Bal, (am I pronouncing it right? ba'al? Just kidding!)

Most religions claim to be the One And Only True Path to Enlightenment. Christianity does (all flavors of it including catholicism, mormons, jw's) Islam, Judiasim (though they don't shout this from rooftops), even Hinduism and Buddism professes this sentiment, though to a lesser degree, and they don't follow up the slogan with "Or Else!" like Christianity and Islam tend to.

Wicca, and many other pagan paths, are exceptions to this trend. The attitude is "Here's A Great Path To Enlightenment, But Maybe You Know Another Way". A lot of people (myself included) mock pagan paths as a "Build-your-own-religion", and sometimes that jibe is on the money. But other times, this attitude opens doors that worshippers of more traditional religions don't even notice.

If you're going to develop an understanding of the people on this site, you are going to have to acknowledge that, like in math, some problems have multiple answers. Other problems have infinite answers! Just because you figured out the integral of e^x is e^x, that doesn't mean it's the only answer, end of story, close the book and close your mind. The actual answer is e^x plus the constant C, or e^c, (both are linear constants) which could take on any real number value. I may have gone off track, but I think I've ILLustrated my point

- Illuminatus!

Illuminatus

October 22nd, 2002, 03:24 PM

As an addendum, I am a Discordian, and our creedo in this context would be 'NO ENLIGHTENMENT HERE, MOVE ON'. Any discordian who claims to have found answers in his path clearly did not understand the question in the first place!

Belteshazzar

October 22nd, 2002, 03:35 PM

Raevyn,

Glad to see you back, and thanks for sharing.

I really have enjoyed posting here. I feel I am beginning to have a better understanding for how Pagans think and believe. Tho we may disagree, I find most Pagans to be caring, sensative people.

It is hard for me to pass by a misunderstanding of Christianity, and I am sure you would inform me if I grossly misrepresented Paganism.

Another question.

I have little ones. I also have fire ants and poisonous snakes where I live. I love and respect nature as do Pagans, but when it comes to the safety of my kids ...its bye bye fire ant mound and mr. copperhead. If the snake is non-poisonous, I will usally try to catch it and release it, but poisonous snake aren't always as lucky.

What is the Pagan view on this?

peace and blessings,

shaz

Danustouch

October 22nd, 2002, 03:43 PM

B- Just a clarification, Yes, I aknowledge that I brought up the Abortion issue, but, my intent wasn't to launch a debate about the morality of the issue, merely to use it as an example of the moral absolutes taught in many Christian theological circles, that I simply couldn't take as a moral absolute.

And I'm not dropping out of the thread, because I was offended. I'm dropping out of the thread, because I don't consider it to be productive. Coming from a Christian background, I already KNOW how Christianity Compares with Paganism. I know what scripture says about the beliefs that I hold. I had no desire to argue your scripture with you, because generally, I find that when people find a path that is right for them, there are only two solutions to any debate. Either both aknowledge that BOTH paths are valid, or, walk away realizing that never the twain shall meet. My personal belief, is that these solutions to the debate, are both valid. There are many points in Christianity that will never be the same as Paganism. However, I'm able to say that there are some similarities, and that being said, that both are valid paths in my personal opinion. Simply put...one "worked" for me, and one "Didnt.". I cannot make you "see" the validity of my path. Once presented with our beliefs, you will judge the validity all on your own. If it doesn't match up with your scripture, and your scripture is the "Truth" to you, then I cannot change your mind, nor would I want to. If your goal in starting this thread, was a sincere effort to understand your coworker, or to understand the beliefs of Pagans, so that you didn't merely "Assume", I was willing to try to provide you with the information you sought. However, if your goal in starting this thread, was to try to point out the discrepancies between our path and yours, and to highlight "Why" you think that Paganism is not a valid path, then I don't need to participate any longer in the discussion. I already know why Christians don't think that Paganism is a valid path, and there is no evidence that you could provide me with, that would dissuade me, from thinking that it IS. I've already been presented with the evidence from Scripture. And I've decided it's not "enough" for me. It's not enough of an argument, as it is, as with anything else, based on Faith. I have faith too, just in differen't things than you do. So I will follow my faith, and wish you many blessings, in the pursuit of your own. I hope that clarifies a bit. My last post may have come off harsh, but it was due to frustration at having to defend, once again, my beliefs. I didn't answer this thread to defend my beliefs, but to clarify them to someone who's only impressions of paganism may have come from some sources that were less than accurate, perhaps biased, and perhaps even based on ONE interaction with a Pagan, who may or may not have been a good representation of our path as a whole. (due to his own personal issues, ...your coworker may not represent paganism in a good light at this time. Just like a Christian going through a dark time in his life, may not be the 'best' example of Christianity as a whole).

Take Care. I assure you there is no animosity.

Nina

October 22nd, 2002, 03:44 PM

I am pleased you are posting with such eloquence.

I have not had the best of experiences of Christians who know I am a Pagan, so I find it refreshing to meet someone who not only listens, but is trying to understand.

However much I love nature, I would protect my own children from fireants and anything that would hurt them.

In the same way, I pull up weeds that grow in my garden to protect the plants I have chosen to place there.

I spray my budgie's cage with mite-killer so he doesn't get ill or pull all his feathers out. I am not going to hurt those I love - pets, plants, family - by ignoring fireants, weeds and mites!

Welcome to Mystic Wicks. I have enjoyed reading your posts. I will not argue scripture with you - I do not know it well enough. However, I do know, that since I have dedicated my life to living it in my spiritual path, I have been full of joy, able to cope with so much more, and come back into the loving arms of my family, who I was estranged from.

Brightest Blessings to you.

Belteshazzar

October 22nd, 2002, 03:50 PM

Originally posted by Illuminatus
Most religions claim to be the One And Only True Path to Enlightenment. Christianity does (all flavors of it including catholicism, mormons, jw's) Islam, Judiasim (though they don't shout this from rooftops), even Hinduism and Buddism professes this sentiment, though to a lesser degree, and they don't follow up the slogan with "Or Else!" like Christianity and Islam tend to.

Illuminatus,

I don't totally disagree, but I would like to add something. Pluralism is the road to ecumincalism. Watch closely, because modern Judiaism, Catholicsim, moderate Islam and liberal "christianity" are beginning to ecumincalize. I read about it all the time. This is significant because the bible speaks of a universal church that will exist in the last days.

BTW ...do you mind explaining what exactly your world view is. I am fairly unfamiliar with "discordianism". Help a brother out. :cool:

shaz .......(pronounced "shaz")

Belteshazzar

October 22nd, 2002, 04:02 PM

Danu-

It probably won't be long before my friend and co-worker starts up another spiritual discussion. The reason I challenge your beliefs is to undertsand them better, but I did not mean to make you feel threatened or unconfortable. Now I have a better understanding for what my friend is refering to when he speaks of "subjectivity". Just because I am not asking questions, does not mean I have changed my agenda, which is to learn more about Pagan philosophy and religion.

I understand where you are coming from, so please don't feel the need to defend yourself or respond any further.

Thanks for your reply.

shaz

Belteshazzar

October 22nd, 2002, 04:15 PM

Originally posted by Nina
I have not had the best of experiences of Christians who know I am a Pagan, so I find it refreshing to meet someone who not only listens, but is trying to understand.

Nina,

Thanks for your kind words. I wasn't sure if the "everybody is welcome" tagline was for real, but so far I am convinced it is.

I would be the first to tell some of my christian brothers and sisters that they can take a few lessons on kindness from some of the Pagans on this board. (since they don't seem to be reading their bible) "Us vs.Them" type thinking is not what Christ taught. Jesus Christ taught us to love our enemies. That means be sensative to thier feelings and try to understand them. However, the word "enemy" does not imply that christians can be "enemies", it implies that we might *have* enemies. I see no one as "the enemy", and I'm not so sure I have any ...yet.

peace and blessings,

shaz

ohh .. I want to add something. I am 34, and came to faith in Christ at 30. Before that, I had no religious upbringing. From reading these post I realize that I was a philosophical Pagan, as many in our society are. (not religiously speaking) I say that because I once shared the philosophy of many here, so when I began to attend church it was difficult for me because it was the opposite of my personal agenda and desires. So I searched the scriptures for answers to my most difficult questions, and lo, God answered them and gave me understanding. I don't claim to know everything, but I am confident that my convictions are not a "leap of faith", but a "walk in light".

Nina

October 22nd, 2002, 04:23 PM

You will find lots of debate here, but I hope that we warmly welcome all that come with something I find essential - RESPECT! - we have too few Christians here in my opinion. I'm not interested in those that wish to just tell me my way is wrong, I want to talk to those who have found the right way for them!

You appear to be very secure and joyful in your beliefs, and I find that wonderful. I am in mine.

Love thine enemies is not a tenent I would disagree with. I find that the more love I give out to those that cross my path, the more love I find in my life. Let's face it, a smile is infectious!

So consider yourself welcomed to the board. I hope that you stick around and continue to articulate your feelings and beliefs so well.

And please don't just stay in this thread - come on over to Just Talk, or the Silly threads and have some fun!

And I think we have at least one thing in common... when I was at school (too many moons ago to count!) my nickname was Shaz!!

Belteshazzar

October 22nd, 2002, 05:08 PM

Another question:

Do Pagans consider themselves a minority or majority in postmodern culture?

shaz

Nina

October 22nd, 2002, 05:12 PM

Ah, well, there's a question.

I certainly think that those who come to a Pagan Path and follow it for their lifetime - and not just a passing fad, which I am the first to admit, there are a lot of those out there - find it is not an easy path to live, but it is incredibly rewarding. Well I find it so. And I would surmise that we are very much a minority.

Mind you, I would also imagine that those that LIVE a Christian path, rather than just call themselves Christian because they were baptized but never stepped into a church again, are also a minority.

Semele

October 22nd, 2002, 10:42 PM

Originally posted by Belteshazzar

While I might not tell someone ..."your not saved, ..or your not a Christian" ......I don't have to believe they are just because they say so. Like I said, there are people in my church (not many) who seem to show up once a week to sit in sour in a pew. I don't believe they have Jesus. I believe all they have is dry as dust religion. In fact, they are usually the types who go around judging who is saved or not. (imho)

shalom,

shaz

I am sorry to make my first reply here in this manner, but hang in here with me, I am playing catch up. Your statement above seems extremelly contradictory to me. You make a comment to us that some of the members are without Christ and are in essence really missing out...then you say they are the type to judge others. How can you judge how spiritually connected someone is by looking at them in church...and more important what right do you have to do so or what interest? I am content in my spirituality and while I thoroughly enjoy a good religious debate now and again, I am never trying to convert or save anyone or even to judge them, only to understand. That is exactly the message I got from all of your other posts and then this one threw me for a loop.

I am stopping here because I am off to bed. I will read the remaining pages tomorrow. I am not attacking you or pointing fingers, just trying to understand.

Flar's Freyja

October 23rd, 2002, 12:39 AM

Originally posted by Belteshazzar
..and I don't want to do it again. ;) Actually Danu- brought it up in her post before the last as one of her objections to Christianity. My comment on that was in reference to an earlier topic where we were discussing subjective morality and I posed the question of child sacrifice. The point I was making was that subjective morality was in conflict to an earlier statement she had made.

No worries. I wasn't pointing fingers and really wasn't sure who brought it up. The topic has been discussed in numerous threads and has always resulted in conflict and hurt feelings.

In Christianity, worship is really WORTH-ship. It is simply a way of expressing what God means to you, not a demeaning human ritual. The scripture repeatedly criticiszes performing empty rituals. If God is real to a person, and that person adores God, worship is an instrument to express that love. God is not looking for a performance, He discerns the heart.

I like your clarification. Unfortunately, in my experience I have seen too many individuals who do see worship as a demeaning human ritual, and who perform empty rituals.

I have the feeling that your impression of Christianity is stated above. I have yet to live up to God's expectations .....and I'm still here! ...but God does not spare me the consequences of my actions. Moreover, in His own way and time, He teaches me the better way like any good Father would do.

I have mentioned in previous posts that I spent many years in Christian churches and was raised in the Catholic church. My current beliefs have developed from what I learned in childhood. So you see, we are not so different.

If you were starving, and you found an abundance of bread, wouldn't you have the compassion, excitement and motivation to tell others who are starving?

Of course. But when it comes to sharing my faith, I feel that proselytzing puts me in a position of judgement, although I will share information when someone asks. I am but human and have no right to claim that my path is the only path.

True evangelism in not try to "convert", that is God's job and it is a miracle only He can do. Evangelist-ministers are simply messengers.

I agree, and the Divine is the only one who knows whether one path is the true path. Evangelist-ministers who follow the Bible are doing what they believe that they are supposed to be doing, because this is what scripture says. Unfortunately, I have met too many who are also very judgemental.

The bible never suggest that we do nice things for "reward". In fact, this is why Christians will be judges for their works. As I quoted earlier, "God judges the works by the WORKER".

What scripture does teach is that there is rewards for those who put others first. "The first will be last, and the last will be first." Again, people can fool each other, but you can't fool God.

Also, everyhting that glitters isn't gold. Just because something carries the title "church" or "christian" does not mean it is so. That is why I love scripture, it always sets the record straight.

Again, I agree and again, there are too many who do works with the sole, selfish goal of getting themselves into heaven. I especially agree with the last part of your statement and it is a large part of the reason I was led to this path. I responded to many altar calls and was baptized twice. I never came away from those services feeling completely secure, at peace, or able to accept and fully believe what was being presented. In other words, I did not get what I needed. I did not have the blessing of the complete peace, joy and security that I am blessed with now.

Earlier you asked "[b]. Well.......if an individual accepted the Lord and rededicated themselves several times and even was baptized twice or more, and then moved on to another path........would this be negated if salvation through Jesus Christ alone turned out to be the "truth"?

Earlier in this thread, one of the contributors listed Christianity as one of the religion excluded from Paganism, and I agree. The likely reason being that Jesus made a claim of exclusivity ...."I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life, no man(mankind) comes to the Father but by me." (John 14:6) This being the reason many people hate Christians/Christianity. The common response "How dare anyone make such a claim" ...not "let's examine this claim to see if it true or "probable". Jesus said not to marvel because the world hates you (christian) ...because it hated me first. And we know that the servant is not greater than the master. Scripture says that ALL you choose to live Godly In-Christ shall sffer some form of persecutuion.

Bottom line. A true Christian NOT ONLY walks as He walked, but believe what he said, and He said He was the Way. (path)
There are many verses in reference to this question. However, none as clear as 1John 2:19 in specific reference to your question.
1John 2:19
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
This is not a judgement by the way, I am only telling you what scripture says on the subject.

I can not speak for all pagans, but I do not hate Christians or Christianity. I hope I have made that clear in my posts. It is simply not the path that has brought me into a personal relationship with the Divine. Paganism has done that for me. On the same note, Pagans are feared and greatly misunderstood by many Christians. I also think that it is very obvious from this discussion that there are groups and individuals in both religions who negatively represent the entire population. We share so many similarities and I would like to see both populations equally accepted.

Shaz, I have taken none of your statements as judgements. I admire your knowledge of scripture. I no longer believe that the Bible is the only true word and I won't argue it on any level. The Tao Te Ching, the Baghadvagita and the Kaballah all contain very similar guidelines for living. The word that I have taken most to heart is the last line of the Charge of the Goddess: "For if that which you seek, you find not within yourself, you will never find it without." I believe that each of us must recognize and connect with the Divine within us in our own individual ways.

Belteshazzar

October 23rd, 2002, 08:11 AM

greetings Semele and welcome to the discussion!

Originally posted by Semele
I am sorry to make my first reply here in this manner, but hang in here with me, I am playing catch up. Your statement above seems extremelly contradictory to me. You make a comment to us that some of the members are without Christ and are in essence really missing out...then you say they are the type to judge others. How can you judge how spiritually connected someone is by looking at them in church...and more important what right do you have to do so or what interest?

Please don't apologize, and your manner is just fine.

Good observation. You see ...what are you doing right now? You are observing my behavior and drawing a conclusion. As you should do! Are you judging me ? ..No. You are simply making a fair conclusion based on your present understanding of what I said. If I had taken offense to your statements, since they are reasonable, it would only prove that you conclusion is probably accurate.

However, I am not judging people. I am simply making an observation of the behavior of people whom I have known for years. I am not simply drawing my conclusion by how they worship, because we can worship in different ways. I for one am not very expressive in worship services. I know "sit and sour" does not give you much to go on, so let me explain. I know people who never have a good thing to say. They are never praiseful or thankful, and when they do speak, it is either gossip or bashing some group of people. So I conclude, that from their behavior, that it is highly unlikely that Christ dwell in them spiritually. Keep in mind, we are not talking about having a bad day. But rather a consistant pattern of behavior over many months and years.

While it my sound like criticism, I really feel bad for them because I know they are miserable. When knocking down others is the best you can do, you are one miserable person.

I am content in my spirituality and while I thoroughly enjoy a good religious debate now and again, I am never trying to convert or save anyone or even to judge them, only to understand. That is exactly the message I got from all of your other posts and then this one threw me for a loop.

Well I hope you didn't land to hard when your were thrown for that loop. ;)

But as I have said earlier, I cannot save or convert anyone. As one who truly believes scripture, I know that only God has that power and ability to draw men/women to Himself. Also, anything I could "talk you into", someone esle could "talk you out of". That is not so with true conversion.

If my post come across as evangelical ...that is because they are! This is not a "judgement", it is just me being who I am. I do not expect you to be anyone but yourself, I hope you will allow me the same consideration. I have a many good reasons to be excited by Jesus. Scripture isn't the "reason", it is the confirmation! That is the beauty of scripture. What God teaches me through life experience, he afterwards confirms through His Word, clear and concise.

And again, if you truly feel that I am guilty of judging, then you are also gulity. However, I don't feel you are being judgemental. I think you are obviously making a personal observation, as I was. I think your observation was fair based on the limited information available to you. But I believe my observation is reasonably accurate based the abundance of information available to me.

As for my interest in such people, it deeply troubles me to see anyone surrounded by the Words and examples of Christ and not be touched. It is sad to see anyone waste life away by griping and complaining when there is a gold mine right under their noses.

[B}I am not attacking you or pointing fingers, just trying to understand. [/B]

I am really glad you responded as you did. In fact, when I was writing that post, I considered the possiblilty that someone might see that as a contradiction. But like most of my post, I wait to be questioned or challenged before going into detailed explanations. There is no reason to wearing out your fingertips if nobody is interested.

I hope this helpful, and I hope you stick around .....cuz I like your style. Direct and to the point. ;)

shaz

Illuminatus

October 23rd, 2002, 11:31 AM

Originally posted by Belteshazzar
Illuminatus,

I don't totally disagree, but I would like to add something. Pluralism is the road to ecumincalism. Watch closely, because modern Judiaism, Catholicsim, moderate Islam and liberal "christianity" are beginning to ecumincalize. I read about it all the time. This is significant because the bible speaks of a universal church that will exist in the last days.

BTW ...do you mind explaining what exactly your world view is. I am fairly unfamiliar with "discordianism". Help a brother out. :cool:

shaz .......(pronounced "shaz")

Yeah, I've seen this too. Organizations like the Universal Life Church and the more legitimate Unitarian Church are quite popular. More and more people are abandoning the lines drawn in the sand to come together as one body of worshippers, some of whom have different beliefs. The irony in this, of course, is that every time this happens, the church divides itself even further, since the ULC and UC just become new branches on the ever-dividing tree of christian sects. It's been that way ever since Martin Luther nailed his proclamation to the church door.

The difference is that many christians, not most, but a vocal minority, are NOT content to live and let live. Whereas basicly Pagans embrace that creedo. No pagan ever left a comic book with a silly moral for you at your place of buisness, nor will they knock on your door to inform you that you're damned. We trust one another to find our own ways, and if we want spiritual guidance, the appropriate method is to seek it out on one's own terms.

As for Discordia, well I'm so glad you asked! Well, I'd love to tell you all about it, but I'm not really all that sure myself. I think I"ll start a new thread.

Belteshazzar

October 23rd, 2002, 12:04 PM

Illuminatus,

Pluralism and ecumincalism are very close to one another. Sometimes it is hard to distinguish which is taking place. True ecumincalism is the watering down of religious beliefs until they agree, or at least don't contradict. My point is, if someone can do that, they likely never truly believed in their religious convictions in the first place.

shaz

Flar's Freyja

October 23rd, 2002, 12:08 PM

Originally posted by Belteshazzar
[B]However, I am not judging people. I am simply making an observation of the behavior of people whom I have known for years. I am not simply drawing my conclusion by how they worship, because we can worship in different ways. I for one am not very expressive in worship services. I know "sit and sour" does not give you much to go on, so let me explain. I know people who never have a good thing to say. They are never praiseful or thankful, and when they do speak, it is either gossip or bashing some group of people. So I conclude, that from their behavior, that it is highly unlikely that Christ dwell in them spiritually. Keep in mind, we are not talking about having a bad day. But rather a consistant pattern of behavior over many months and years.

While it my sound like criticism, I really feel bad for them because I know they are miserable. When knocking down others is the best you can do, you are one miserable person.

Another point on which we agree......but I don't define what is lacking in their life as Christ, specifically. I do feel that these sad souls are lacking joy and likely spirituality.........along with the love, support and positive life experiences that I have been blessed with that transformed me from that type of person. Let me explain - I am a victim of childhood physical and sexual abuse, domestic violence, rape, poverty and a single mother who raised three sons alone while attempting to better myself by obtaining a Master's Degree which has done little to improve our financial situation.......I am a social worker by profession and have often worked with clients in the same situation who could not get their acts together. Some of them were not only in the same situatiion, but also were had backgrounds and personalities very similar to mine. I was used by the Divine as an instrument many times and I was able to help some of them, but not by sharing or promoting my spirituality. If I helped any of them at all or even got them to do some reflection and thinking, it was by example. Whatever happened after that is up to the Divine.

But as I have said earlier, I cannot save or convert anyone. As one who truly believes scripture, I know that only God has that power and ability to draw men/women to Himself. Also, anything I could "talk you into", someone esle could "talk you out of". That is not so with true conversion.

If my post come across as evangelical ...that is because they are! This is not a "judgement", it is just me being who I am. I do not expect you to be anyone but yourself, I hope you will allow me the same consideration. I have a many good reasons to be excited by Jesus. Scripture isn't the "reason", it is the confirmation! That is the beauty of scripture. What God teaches me through life experience, he afterwards confirms through His Word, clear and concise.

Aha, you admit it ;) In this community, everyone is welcome as long as the rules of respect are followed. I must take this opportunity to state that many of our members have found MW the only safe place where they can learn about and sometimes even practice their path and it may very well be the only place where some of them can find friendly "faces." This is one of the reasons that Mol and Semele created the board. From what I've read, you have maintained a respectful attitude and I do admire your ability to de-escalate conflict. There is a difference between discussion based on your knowledge and beliefs and attempting to get "lost lambs" to "return to the the flock." I've mentioned in previous posts that as to Christianity, I've been there, done that, and it did little for me. I am at home on my current path and call myself Pagan for lack of a better term. I have studied Native American spirituality, Buddhism, Yoga, Wicca and Asatru and use aspects of all of them. When I do have to come up with a term, I call myself a "Wise Woman" to symbolize that I have returned to the ways of the Old Religion. I am at home here and have no desire to repeat what didn't work. Again, I can not speak for all but I have a feeling that many share this experience. If some life-shattering event occurs down the road that convinces my heart and soul that I am wrong, so be it - I think we agree that this is up to the Divine and not any man. I could get into another whole discussion with you about how the Bible is filled with tall tales of magick and divination, and how the prayer and belief practice of many Christians is basically magick where the Bible is the magickal tool. I've stated before that I feel that all spirituality has a common thread, to each his or her own and live and let live.

And again, if you truly feel that I am guilty of judging, then you are also gulity. However, I don't feel you are being judgemental. I think you are obviously making a personal observation, as I was. I think your observation was fair based on the limited information available to you. But I believe my observation is reasonably accurate based the abundance of information available to me.

The information available to us is most definitely not limited. As stated above, many of us come from Christian backgrounds and the information available within paganism is unlimited. I'll also point out here that the pagan community that I helped establish in my area includes several born-again Chrisitians who have no intention of leaving their own path and the open-mindedness and harmony that has developed is thrilling and encouraging.

As for my interest in such people, it deeply troubles me to see anyone surrounded by the Words and examples of Christ and not be touched. It is sad to see anyone waste life away by griping and complaining when there is a gold mine right under their noses.

As stated above, there are many reasons that people are miserable, including the chemical imbalances that cause depression and life experiences that shaped them that the rest of us have no clue about. For instance, the co-worker who isolates and seems depressed might be living with an alcoholic, a terminally ill loved one or severe financial problems causing stress that affects their personality. When they are open to it, we can offer words of comfort but we can't pay their bills or otherwise turn their situations around. We can remain open and warm in hopes that they will perceive us as friendly and open up at some point. Maybe one of us will be the person who influences them in a positive manner, maybe not. That is up to the Divine, who has specific reasons for each person's life script. I believe far more strongly in influencing by example rather than by preaching. I have no desire to shout my faith from the rooftops. My children, friends and family members who are aware of my path observe the way I live and we even laugh and joke about these issues. We respect each others' paths and there has been no conflict regarding religion whatsoever within my family. On occasion, I have extended an invitation to them to come and observe Circle, especially on the more fun Sabbats such as Beltane, when we dance the Maypole. Last Yule, we had a wonderful discussion about the pagan foundation of that Sabbat and everyone enjoyed learning from it. I have never made an attempt to convince any of them to change their faith or religious practice.

Again, I am enjoying this discussion and I appreciate your honesty. I hope that you are indeed being honest when you say that although you are evangelizing, you are not attempting to convert. I hope that is the case. Mystic Wicks is a sanctuary for many of our members and its safety should not be threatened.

edited to correct spelling

Belteshazzar

October 23rd, 2002, 01:54 PM

Originally posted by Freyja
The information available to us is most definitely not limited. As stated above
Freyja,

Just a point of clarification.

Please try to keep these statements in context. I was refering to Semele's observation of my post, which was based on the small amount of information that I provided. I was not refering to Christianity.

Also, I am not here to spoil your fun. I am just interacting from a different world view. As long as individuals are comfortable with their own world view, then they should not see me as a threat.

I will likely stick around until it becomes unproductive, or until the big hook drags me off stage. :shift:

shaz

Flar's Freyja

October 23rd, 2002, 02:08 PM

Originally posted by Belteshazzar
Freyja,

Just a point of clarification.

Please try to keep these statements in context. I was refering to Semele's observation of my post, which was based on the small amount of information that I provided. I was not refering to Christianity.

Also, I am not here to spoil your fun. I am just interacting from a different world view. As long as individuals are comfortable with their own world view, then they should not see me as a threat.

I will likely stick around until it becomes unproductive, or until the big hook drags me off stage. :shift:

shaz

Thanks for the clarification. Hmmm, although we have a lot of "fun" on this board, we do take our spirituality very seriously. I prefer not to refer to my path as a "religion" since I see religion and spirituality as two different things.

To clarify my statement, I do not perceive you as a "threat" but I did want to convey that some of the members might feel that way. Please understand that our path is largely perceived as evil and negative and some members are threatened in their real life circumstances due to their beliefs.

I hope that you do choose to stick around. I'm enjoying our discussions and I've seen some of your posts in other forums. You are someone that I would probably like a great deal if we were to meet offline. Again, your posts are appropriate, you are obviously a highly intelligent individual and base your opinions on what you believe to be true.

Please continue :)

Belteshazzar

October 23rd, 2002, 02:11 PM

BTW everyone,

I have asked several questions, to which only a few have kindly answered. Most of the post have been directed towards me or Christianity, so consequently I respond.

So here are some more questions.

1. Are "christmas" and "easter" still considered Pagan holidays?

2. What is the Pagan origin of these holidays?

3. Are all Pagan gods and godesses equal in power?

4. Do Pagans believe in evil spirits?

5. Nothing in the known universe has happened without a cause. (cause and effect) What would you say is the "cause" of wars, starvation, violence, and all forms of suffering that have been upon mankind?

Thanks to all,

shaz

Belteshazzar

October 23rd, 2002, 02:19 PM

Originally posted by Freyja
I prefer not to refer to my path as a "religion" since I see religion and spirituality as two different things

Freyja ....thanks for your kind words,

We can both agree on the above statement. Also, I do understand the public perception of Paganism, that is why I came here to seek understanding. Likewise, when a statement is made of Christianity that is based mostly on public perception rather than scripture, I feel the need to clarify. In doing so, it will always seem evangelical ...as in a sense it is.

peace and blessings,

shaz

Flar's Freyja

October 23rd, 2002, 02:29 PM

:) I'll respond to your other questions when I've got more time to do so intelligently. Wow, I didn't want to get into the "Who Was Here First" debate :lol:

Another thought - in my observation, perception of either path has a lot to do with geographical location and cultural issues. Interestingly, I got a far more negative perception of - wow, I don't want to say Christianity itself because that's not true......let's say "some Christians" and I'm not sure if that's what I want to say either - when I moved to the Bible belt than I did living on the East and West coasts.

Belteshazzar

October 23rd, 2002, 02:35 PM

Originally posted by Freyja
Wow, I didn't want to get into the "Who Was Here First" debate :lol:

Huh?

I did not have a debate in mind. I was just looking for some background.

shaz

Flar's Freyja

October 23rd, 2002, 02:40 PM

That's why I'm giggling........it could very well start one! :)

When you have some time, you might look around The History forum.

Raevyn

October 23rd, 2002, 02:47 PM

Originally posted by Belteshazzar
1. Are "christmas" and "easter" still considered Pagan holidays?

We have Yule and Ostara - similar to Christmas and Easter and around the same time but not exactly the same. Yule shows up in yule logs, holly, and the birth of a new God. It also has to do with celebrating to remind us the winter will be over someday soon :) Easter is about babies and young children growing like the spring and the new agricultural year, and shows up in eggs, pastel colours, spring's first flowers, and so on. The holidays are quite similar, though I think the Pagan ones were more based around what was going on in agriculture and recognizing the turn of the seasons.

2. What is the Pagan origin of these holidays?

Basically as I said what was going on in agriculture, the turn of the 'wheel' (ie. the seasonal year), with roots in Celtic beliefs.

3. Are all Pagan gods and godesses equal in power?

This depends on who you ask - some people believe yes, and they're all connected. Some people believe no - for example older ones who have been around longer are sometimes thought to be stronger because they've survived myth so long.

4. Do Pagans believe in evil spirits?

Again, depends on the Pagan. In my mind there are evil spirits just like there are evil people. I don't think of them as "demons" or "devils", just as negative spirits like you might think of negative people.

5. Nothing in the known universe has happened without a cause. (cause and effect) What would you say is the "cause" of wars, starvation, violence, and all forms of suffering that have been upon mankind?

Well, some people might believe that there's no cause for things, that they just happened. As to *my* opinion, those things are caused by people not loving eachother and working together - by people dividing themselves over colour or religion, or by being too self centered to care about others. I don't think that's due to religion or spirits, just people. :)

Belteshazzar

October 23rd, 2002, 02:50 PM

Originally posted by Freyja
That's why I'm giggling........it could very well start one! :)

LOL ....that's okay. Just do like Nero did ....start a fire and blame it on the christians. ;)

When you have some time, you might look around The History forum.

Good idea! Why didn't me thinks of that?

Raevyn

October 23rd, 2002, 02:55 PM

Originally posted by Belteshazzar
I have little ones. I also have fire ants and poisonous snakes where I live. I love and respect nature as do Pagans, but when it comes to the safety of my kids ...its bye bye fire ant mound and mr. copperhead. If the snake is non-poisonous, I will usally try to catch it and release it, but poisonous snake aren't always as lucky.

Well I'm glad you're still here and the conversation is still going fairly well - with the barrage of posts you have to respond to it's fabulous that you keep up and continue looking for understanding rather then arguing.

The Pagan view on that depends on the branch of Paganism and the person. For instance, Wicca has the rede which states "harm none". Some Wiccans try never to harm anything if they can help it; some extremists might even move rather then disturb those animals! Some think you should only harm things to protect yourself - so it would be ok to harm the snake and the ants.

In my case I'd do as you've said - I love animals too but personally a child's safety is paramount. If I could remove the creatures without harming them I would, but if there was no way, it'd be "bye bye fire ant mound and mr. copperhead" ;)

Belteshazzar

October 23rd, 2002, 03:02 PM

Raevyn,

Thanks for your answers, I enjoy your posts.

Originally posted by Raevyn
We have Yule and Ostara - similar to Christmas and Easter and around the same time but not exactly the same. Yule shows up in yule logs, holly, and the birth of a new God. It also has to do with celebrating to remind us the winter will be over someday soon

Was there a tree decorating ritual? Where does that come from?

I am fairly familiar with Ishtar and Ishtar eggs.

Again, depends on the Pagan. In my mind there are evil spirits just like there are evil people. I don't think of them as "demons" or "devils", just as negative spirits like you might think of negative people.

Interesting. Because demons/devil in scripture are evil spirits, not physical manifestations.

Is that the samething you are saying?

Well, some people might believe that there's no cause for things, that they just happened. As to *my* opinion, those things are caused by people not loving eachother and working together - by people dividing themselves over colour or religion, or by being too self centered to care about others. I don't think that's due to religion or spirits, just people. :)

For what it is worth, I agree with everything you just said. We (christians) just call it "sin".

many thanks for your answers,

shaz

Semele

October 23rd, 2002, 04:17 PM

Wow! Lots of things to respond to and so little time...well so little uninterupted time anyway. I must say i haven't been this enthused about a thread in a long while. This is the type of thing I most enjoy...discussing subjects that can and sometimes do turn heated, but doing so with a group of folks who try very hard to word things in a manner not to offend but to truly learn or gain something.

I plan on responding in a few seperate replies, as I know I personally tend to lose a little info when reading lengthy posts. I have to leave to pick up my son from school right now, but just wanted to start with this one comment/question.

Shaz,
You commented about the sadness or emptiness you can see and feel in others..(those I accused you of judging;) ), I know exactly what you are referring to. I have seen it many times myself, in people who are, by their own statements very spirtually grounded and at ease. I too have doubted that fact for I feel that if they truly were so grounded and at peace they couldn't be so sad and negative all the time. I refere to this as feeling or sensing their energy. It is a very powerful thing to experience, but I think you know that already. I long for these people to find the peace that I feel day to day, even through some very trying times in life.

On the contrary, I often meet people who are so full of love and joy that it literally radiates from them and these people make me feel good just by their presence. I do tend to think that they are filled with spirit or grounded spiritually...balanced. I do not always think it is Christ they are filled with, nor do I always doubt it is Christ. I know one particular person at work who is the very shining example of Christ's love and I am so happy for her. I guess I just think that there are many ways to find that peace...all I feel are connections with God, but the Path or route to get there is so vast and different for us all. I have said many times and will continue to say that religion is the biggest road block on the road to spirituality.

I will write more in a bit...must get the child!

whoa...I am late..no time to read through and check for typos..you have been warned...back in a bit.

Raevyn

October 23rd, 2002, 05:52 PM

Originally posted by Belteshazzar
Thanks for your answers, I enjoy your posts.

I enjoy yours as well :)

Was there a tree decorating ritual? Where does that come from?

Well yes and no I think; I mean it's a ritual in that people tend to do it at the same time every year, but as far as a special sacred or set apart ritual not really. I think it's always just been fun to decorate for holidays.

I am fairly familiar with Ishtar and Ishtar eggs.

I don't think I've ever heard of them put that way. The Goddess I associate with Easter is named Ostara - it can be spelled Ostara or Eostre - I'm not sure if we're thinking of the same one but you misunderstood the name or something else. Some info on her;

http://www.hranajanto.com/goddessgallery/eostre.html
http://www.ealdriht.org/eostre.html
http://www.witchvox.com/holidays/xostara.html (this one is off http://www.witchvox.com which is a well known and very useful Pagan site)

Interesting. Because demons/devil in scripture are evil spirits, not physical manifestations.

Hm, maybe I should've said "the popularized cartoonish idea of demons or devils" - as in the red guys with horns and a pointed tail and forked tongue, you know? I should be careful to remember the popular idea of some things isn't necessarily the real belief.

I think we do have the same idea of evil spirits.

For what it is worth, I agree with everything you just said. We (christians) just call it "sin".

Interesting, isn't that? :)

Semele

October 23rd, 2002, 07:16 PM

Originally posted by Belteshazzar
BTW everyone,

I have asked several questions, to which only a few have kindly answered. Most of the post have been directed towards me or Christianity, so consequently I respond.

So here are some more questions.

Well, this looks like a pretty good place to start. Let me just say that while I am pagan, I do not really consider it a relgion for me. Relgion is almost a curse word in my opinion. It is my way of life and my spirituality. It is very much my driving force in life and the source of all things I love and cherish. So, I am not wiccan, not do I fit into any other cookie cutter organized religious doctrine. I have spent many years and possibly many lifetimes searching for my current level of comfort with God and I am finally there. So you are forewarned that my answers may not be representative of all Pagans.

Originally posted by Belteshazzar

1. Are "christmas" and "easter" still considered Pagan holidays?

2. What is the Pagan origin of these holidays?

I lumped these two together because they just seem to fit together and my answer will be short. Yes, sure they can be considered as Pagan holidays...if they are celebrated as such. I am sure someone will enlighten you on the history of The Yule log and Christmas tree..etc and maybe even give you all the evidence that Christians stole the holidays from pagans..yada yada. How the story of Christ's birth doesn't seem to fit within the description of Dec. 25th and that the leaders of the Christian church decided to celebrate Christmas around Yule to keep it at a time when Pagans and others wre already used to celebrating.

I celebrate these days with my family because it is a great opportunity to spend quality time with loved ones and share love and gifts for each other. I do not make a big distinction in what I call them...my family for the most part calls it Christmas, as does my son. He also knows it is Yule and that we light the Yule log and feast on special cakes, but mostly what he knows is that we are a family sharing love and I think that is the best gift to offer to God.

Originally posted by Belteshazzar

3. Are all Pagan gods and godesses equal in power?

Well, for me, I don't necessarily believe in a large number of Gods and Godesses. I pretty much have my own theory that somewhat resemble a trinity theory of Christianity. Rather than the father, son and holy spirit, I see God as Father, Mother and their creations. That includes all the elements they created..fire, earth, wind, water...land, animals, humans...pretty much all that we see and much that we don't. As for power...uh, well I don't really like to think of it as power so much as will. I think we are all part God or goddess and we have the will to make things happen. I will expalin more on that later.

Originally posted by Belteshazzar

4. Do Pagans believe in evil spirits?

Again, this is my opinion, but I believe in negative energy, that of course comes from people. Have you ever walked into a room and could feel instantly that something wasn't right. Maybe the people in the room are arguing and you feel it before you see it in their faces. That is negative energy that has been released into the air from these people who are giving that energy off. Some people, I think, can possibly give off so much negative energy and reabsorb their own and other negative energy so that they are filled with it and then they become evil themselves. Also there may be a posibility that all the negative energy can affect people in large numbers, but I don't see that as an evil spirit or ghost...just negativity with an outcome.

Originally posted by Belteshazzar

5. Nothing in the known universe has happened without a cause. (cause and effect) What would you say is the "cause" of wars, starvation, violence, and all forms of suffering that have been upon mankind?

Basically this goes along with the question you asked in an earlier post regarding prayer and evidence that it has worked. Which I thought was somewhat of a strange question for you, seeing as how Christianity is based on FAITH.

In a nutshell I feel all the things you asked about are caused by a lack of balance. Of course this is not something that can be easily corrected, as we can strive to achieve balance in ourselves, but cannot do so for other humans. I can be balanced in my spiritual life via communication with God and meditation and prayer and constant strive for understanding and knowledge, I can also add to that balance by attempting to keep my physical body as healthy as possible...to avoid physical lag and psychological lag that stems from physical ineptness. I can attempt to surround myself with people who are as well balnced as they can be and do not drain me or affect me in negative manners with their own negativity. I can pretty much achieve balance in my life and keep the small wars and violence and suffering at bay, however, sadly enough I can do very little to affect the world at large on a permanant level. Sometimes that realization is a weight lifted in itself.

As for the prayer aspect, I pray much like you do I would bet. I talk to God on a daily, even hourly basis. I do, at times ask for guidance and patience to recieve and understand the lessons in life. Now that is what I call prayer...there are other times when I pray but it is more of a prayer to let God know I am exerting my will for something. If I want something to change or happen I can make it so. This is magik, but it is still a form of prayer, because of the direct connection with God and the focus and sincerity required. At this point you may be rolling your eyes and thinking, "uh-oh, now what have I opened myself up to here?"

Allow me to elaborate. When I speak of magik works I am not intending to bring to mind visions of a witch standing over a cauldron or a magician with a pointed hat throwing a mysterious substance into the air. We tell our children from the time they can understand words that they can be and do anything they desire in life...the sad thing is that at some point we stop believing it ourselves. The simple fact is that God gave us the ability to make things happen and expects us to do so. I can pray and ask for God to make something happen and it may or may not happen. Rather than just accept that god has a better plan, I choose to make it so myself. It always works. God wants us to act for ourselves and realise the power we share with him/her. I am not saying that if I wanted to prove something to you I could make a candle float to the cieling. I am sure if that was my true desire and intent I could do so. But, I am not willing to spend the energy required to "show" someone how magik could work. In the first place, I doubt if I could raise the energy required to do such a mundane task that meant so little to me. Now, If you were trapped under a car and about to die, I bet I could probably muster the energy required to move the vehicle and save you.

I am not really one for proof or examples but I do sense that you are really curious, not just wanting stories to pick apart, so I will tell you my most recent and ongoing prayer/magikal work. My husband and I have wanted to have a second child for quite sometime and have been unsuccessful for a number of years. There are various medical reasons for this on my end. I have prayed and meditated about this and finally just decided if it were to happen it would be through magik. Both my husband and myself have for the past nine months done our own forms of magik and yes we did get pregnant. Now, for every magikal act you do a piece of yourself is required...you have to really focus and direct energy continually. I know that this pregnancy is a result of the magik and that it wasn't initially God's plan. Perhaps because of the difficluty that the pregnany has been, God didn't feel we were prepared or mayhaps didn't want to give us this blessing surrounded with torment unless we truly sought it.

It has been a daily struggle with physical pain and dangers of permanant vision loss and possible need for surgical shunt placement to relieve pressure form my brain. I have endured lumbar punctures and blood patches and more doctor visits than any human should have to endure. Through it all, I have maintained that I want this child and I kept my vision in mind, as has my husband. Things will go smoothly for a while, which I know is God stepping in and cradling us so we can rest. Then something else will come up to remind us that it is not over and we have to keep our guard up and our energy flow constant. As I check my sugar several times a day I focus that energy on my baby girl and tell her I can't wait to hold her. With each headache that keeps me in bed for days, I focus all that energy on the final outcome. When my son comes in and gives me a hug and tells me I look tired and need a nap...I know this is God hugging me. I also know that it may well be far from over..even after my daughter is delivered on Nov.25th...we may be in for more suprises, but I know that she is a true gift that we have fought for. I know that my prayers were answered through the trinity that I spoke of earlier..Mother/Father/child. Thus we name our daughter Trinity.

Shaz, I very much enjoy your presence here and can't help but think of you as another strategically placed prop in God's plan for us all. You see, I am a firm believer that everyone we encounter is a possible gift. There is always an opportunity to share a little of ourselves with others and in doing so we often learn and recieve great gifts. The best type of encounters are those where we are left wondering who really recieved the best gift from the other person.

Flar's Freyja

October 23rd, 2002, 10:52 PM

Originally posted by Belteshazzar

So here are some more questions.

3. Are all Pagan gods and godesses equal in power?

4. Do Pagans believe in evil spirits?

Thanks to all,

shaz

I'll pick these two, for right now. The first two have been answered very well by other members and the fifth would send me on quite a rant as I believe that the cause of these ills IS mankind.......

I don't look upon my god and goddess as having "power." I see them as having differing aspects, very similar to the hundreds of aspects of the Christian god for which there are over one hundred names. I call upon the god or goddess whose qualities are appropriate for my need. Although Freyja is my patron goddess, I have been working with Hekate, the Dark Mother or Crone goddess, for most of the past year. I am entering the Crone stage of my life and transitioning from motherhood to cronehood. I am also dealing with issues relating to death. She is providing guidance and support during this time. I may call upon Thor when I need protection from oppression or those who would harm me. I honor Hestia for the blessings of hearth and home and Hygeia for health issues.

I personally don't believe in evil spirits but I do not speak for all pagans. I do recognize negative energy and deal with that by working with my own energy to counteract and overcome it. I believe that I am protected by my deities from suffering any real harm, and this was recently proven to me in an awesome manner. I believe that by believing in evil spirits, we give them power and may as well just invite them in. They are fueled by our fear and use it to have themselves a really good time taking credit for the difficulties in our lives. When I practiced Christianity, some of the churches I attended maintained that my ex-husband's drug problem and violence and my being stricken with a physical disability just when my life was getting on track after leaving him were the actions of the devil trying to destroy me and my family. I no longer buy that. I found that these experiences are what contributed to my spiritual development and strength and made me the person that I am today. If I held a belief that evil spirits or entities, or even god, caused the problems in my life I'm sure I'd be a very miserable person indeed.

Edited to add: It's also my opinion that giving credence to evil spirits is a form of creating blame and failure to take ownership; i.e., "the devil made me do it" and has been used as an excuse for hate; i.e., behaviors such as homosexuality being termed "of the devil."

Belteshazzar

October 24th, 2002, 08:33 AM

Thanks to everyone for their answers.

Semele,

Hey, I didn't realize you were the site godess ....congrats!

This is a good experience for me. I can see now how public perception has the ability to distort things. The public eye usually finds the worst example of a world view and uses that to represent the whole. Sometimes it is innocent, and other times it is for self intrest type reasons. I think that the most common perception of Christianity is a bunch of people who are going to church and trying to be good so they won't go to hell ...etc., etc. ...Not true, even tho there are individuals who behave that way.

Originally posted by Semele
How the story of Christ's birth doesn't seem to fit within the description of Dec. 25th and that the leaders of the Christian church decided to celebrate Christmas around Yule to keep it at a time when Pagans and others wre already used to celebrating.
You are correct. Christ could not have been born in December for a number of reasons. 1. Shepards in Israel don't graze in the winter. They don't today, nor have they ever. 2. Agustus would have never issued a census in the winter. The ideal time to do this was during one of the 7 Jewish feats (feast of God). That was when all the hillbillies of Judea would come to town. ;) The first four are in the spring (Passover, Unleaveded bread, First fruits and Pentecost), and the latter three in the fall (Trumpets, Atonement and Tabernacle) If you remember, when Jesus was born there was no room in the Inn. The little town was packed for the holiday. Most scholars believe that Jesus was born during the Feast of Tabernacles for a number of reasons, one of then having to do with the prophetic meaning of this holy-day.

I celebrate these days with my family because it is a great opportunity to spend quality time with loved ones and share love and gifts for each other.
Me too. While Christmas is not a New Testament ordinance like baptism and the Lord's Supper, I do like to reflect on the birth of Christ during this time. With the exception of commercialism, I am glad that Christmas is kind of secular ...that way we can all share this time. Who knows? Maybe God planned it that way. :D

I pretty much have my own theory that somewhat resemble a trinity theory of Christianity. Rather than the father, son and holy spirit, I see God as Father, Mother and their creations. That includes all the elements they created..fire, earth, wind, water...land, animals, humans...pretty much all that we see and much that we don't.
Interesting comments.

It reminds me of something I read on the greek philosophers. They basically idenified four essences ...earth, wind, water and fire. They conluded that there must be a fifth essence that unites the four. Unity in diversity, from which we get "university". I believe that God is that fifth essence they were looking for.

Basically this goes along with the question you asked in an earlier post regarding prayer and evidence that it has worked. Which I thought was somewhat of a strange question for you, seeing as how Christianity is based on FAITH.
Ahh ...First it is important to understand that the biblical definition of "faith" is different from the secular version.

Hebrews 11:1
Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.

The word that is translated "faith" in the bible is the greek word "pistis", which literally means "a conviction of truth". Also, very, very important, biblical faith is not something that one can produce himself/herself, ...it comes from God. (this is an interesting topic if anyone wants to discuss it)

As per my question about prayer, I was just curious as to how prayer was performed by Pagans, and if they believe someone was answering, thereby listening also. Personally, I know God is listening because He answers. I try to pray from a biblical basis by faith, and when I ask for something, I do so "specifically", so when God answers, He will also do so specifically.

In a nutshell I feel all the things you asked about are caused by a lack of balance.

That is why I phrased the question the way I did.

What "caused" the lack of balance? There has to be a "first cause" somewhere or this idea defies the first edict of the universe, "cause and effect".

This is where I see the most inconsistancy among Pagan beliefs. Interestingly, Raevyn's answer is consistant with scripture. Could it be that humans don't like to be told were "wrong" or "we've sinned", therefore we look for "natural" reasons to shun accountability?

Am I being unreasonable?

I know this post may draw several responses. I will do my best to respond to as many as possible.

peace and blessings,

shaz

Belteshazzar

October 24th, 2002, 09:32 AM

Who are some "well known" Pagans ...or Pagan celeberites? (other than mol, ...of course) ;)

Thanks.

Semele

October 24th, 2002, 02:37 PM

Originally posted by Belteshazzar

Semele,

Hey, I didn't realize you were the site godess ....congrats!

Lol!! I just earned the title through marriage..being married to the sitegod and all. It's a neat title,but the benefits aren't so great...and the health insurance is horrendous! ;)

Originally posted by Belteshazzar

Interesting comments.

It reminds me of something I read on the greek philosophers. They basically idenified four essences ...earth, wind, water and fire. They conluded that there must be a fifth essence that unites the four. Unity in diversity, from which we get "university". I believe that God is that fifth essence they were looking for.

This is an interesting conclusion you draw. One that I completely agree with by the way. I am sure you are somewhat familiar with the pentacle or pentagram, although you may not be aware of the various meanings it holds for many Pagans. Take a look at the traditional five pointed star...upright if you will. To me it looks like a person standing with feet firmly planted, arms outstretched and head looking upwards. To me, they appear to be a perfect conduit to recieve the energy from above and use their body as a lightening rod so to speak. They are perfectly grounded and have no question where the power comes from as they look toward the heavens.

Interestingly enough many people associate each of the stars points with a particular element...earth, water, fire, air...and of course the fifth element at the top..spirit. What is the most awesome spirit we can experience? That of God of course. In accepting that spirit we become inspired (literal translation of inspiration is to breath in and deeply inhale spirit) to do great things in our lives and to share that inspiration with others.

It is for this reason that the pentacle is one of my favorite symbols. I wear my pentacle with as much pride and admiration as many Christians do with their cross. Not because of the strange reactions it is likely to draw if seen by someone who doesn't understand it, but because it means so much to me. I think everyone should strive to be a star in whatever they do. Which brings me to your recent question regarding famous Pagans. We have discussed this before if I can just find the link. I will search around a bit and see if I can locate it for you. It is quite fascinating really. The one that springs to mind instantly is Stevie Nicks.

MammaStar

October 24th, 2002, 02:40 PM

I like answering the easy ones.....heh heh...

Sully the lead singer from Godsmack
Stevie Nicks...musician
Starhawk World renown writer
Phyllis Currot
Alestair Crowley
Scott Cunningham
Raymond Buckland

That's a small list. I'm too tired and have a headache to think of more. I'm sure there's a lot more than we know about...since most people I know don't really advertise it. (myself included)

Semele

October 24th, 2002, 02:49 PM

http://www.mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?threadid=5871

I bumped it for ya! It is in Just talk in case the link doesn't work!

Belteshazzar

October 24th, 2002, 03:31 PM

Originally posted by Semele
Interestingly enough many people associate each of the stars points with a particular element...earth, water, fire, air...and of course the fifth element at the top..spirit.
How interesting. ...So I guess that is why the upside down pentacle has a not so favorable perception? Isn't there a difference?

It is for this reason that the pentacle is one of my favorite symbols. I wear my pentacle with as much pride and admiration as many Christians do with their cross.
The cross means eveything to me, but I don't wear one. Mainly because it has been cheapened as a symbol by the general public. It has sorta become gangster appearal ...excuse me ..."gangsta".

Anyway, thanks for the celeberty answers. Wow, Joe Pecsi was a bit of a suprise .....don't really know why, I guess he looks catholic.

I was quite a metal-head from the mid 80's to the early 90's, so I guess I was expecting more of those guys/gals to make the list. Sometimes I will catch these VH1 shows when I am channel surfing ...about bands and people from those days. Once I was watching something about Tommy Lee, where he was talking about the kid who drowned at his pool. Then he went on to say something about some friends performing a ritual or purification ceremony at the pool to ward off negative energy or something to that effect. Is he not a Pagan?

I hope everyone has a great weekend.

shaz

Belteshazzar

October 24th, 2002, 03:40 PM

Originally posted by LdyStarlite
Alestair Crowley

Isn't his behavior questionable?

My younger brother has alot of his books, and ever since he started reading Crowley, he has been one depressed and iratable person.

Even Ozzy questioned "what went wrong in your head"? ...or was it "what went on in your head"?

Either way ...when Ozzy questions your mental stability ....you know your in trouble!

BTW .....Why don't you consider Ozzy to be a Pagan?

shaz

Semele

October 24th, 2002, 05:14 PM

Originally posted by Belteshazzar
Isn't his behavior questionable?

My younger brother has alot of his books, and ever since he started reading Crowley, he has been one depressed and iratable person.

Even Ozzy questioned "what went wrong in your head"? ...or was it "what went on in your head"?

Either way ...when Ozzy questions your mental stability ....you know your in trouble!

BTW .....Why don't you consider Ozzy to be a Pagan?

shaz

Oh man..if we could drag Mol in here this would be the post for him to reply to!! You have mentioned two of his favorite folks.

Personally I don't think Ozzy has the mental focus to be a devoted Pagan or much else..he is way too out there. Don't get me wrong, I think he is a very nice person from what I have read and seen over the years, but he has done a lot of damage to his body and he has some mental diffeciencies that he even admits to. He is severly dislexic and can't focus on anything for very long. Of course, who is to say he isn't one of the most powerful magicians of our day. Which leads into the Crowley theory!

Crowley is/was a very strange individual. Yes, indeed his behavior was questionable to many. He was one who was very well versed in magik and how to raise energy. I also believe he was searching so hard for something that he drove himself insane. He had the ability to tap into massive amounts of universal energy and use it to his advantage. To be able to do so requires the kind of intense concentration and meditative ability that can make a sane person completely bonkers.

Basically, as I see it, there is the conscious mind, which is what we use to communicate and make decisions all the time. There is the subconscious mind where every little detail of everything we have ever encountered or experienced is stored. Sometimes we get glimpses of it, but can't quite figure it out...De je vu perhaps or just that intuition that we can't explain. We can highten this awareness of our subconscious through meditation and also through hypnosis. Then there is the superconscious where we can actually reach a higher level of awareness and be tuned in to messages and info from sources outside our own physical plane. To get to that level requires total dedication and discipline. Many of those who seem to have reached that level are legally or clinically insane. I think it is because they have to learn how to turn on parts of the brain we don't normally use and in doing so, something else gets turned off. I do believe there are those who manage to get to that level with all of their wits intact...these are the great spiritual leaders of the world in whose names we have created many different religions. Jesus, Budda, Mohammed...etc.

I am not a huge Crowley fan myself, although I do see why so many are attracted to him. Like your brother I have seen many who become grouchy and irritable when attempting to understand Crowley. In his books and texts he is very condescending, making statements that most folks will never be able to grasp his messages or works. I think that sometimes followers of his take on that condescending attitude because if nothing else, they can emulate that. The quack is famous for writing cryptic texts meant to confuse the untrained minds. The man was, if nothing else, a genius. Who else could find the time to write an entire book that makes a little sense when read forward as we would all assume it should be, yet when read backwards it hold the true intended message of the texts? If I set out to attempt even a children's book of that type it would take me years.

Flar's Freyja

October 24th, 2002, 05:44 PM

Originally posted by Belteshazzar

The cross means eveything to me, but I don't wear one. Mainly because it has been cheapened as a symbol by the general public. It has sorta become gangster appearal ...excuse me ..."gangsta".

Anyway, thanks for the celeberty answers. Wow, Joe Pecsi was a bit of a suprise .....don't really know why, I guess he looks catholic.
shaz

Even though I no longer wear the cross, I am also disturbed by the cheapening of its symbolism, and I like the way you worded that.

:huh: - how does one "look Catholic?" I was raised as Catholic in Italian neighborhoods in New Jersey and although Catholicism is a prevalent religion in that area, not all Italians are Catholic. And if I didn't recognize Mr. Pesci's surname as probably being Italian - which it might not be - if I were to judge him on his physical appearance I might also think that he might be Jewish or of other European descent.

There is another actress who is Wiccan and I have a complete mental block as to her name. She was the female lead on "Moonlighting" and also had her own show.........

I'm not sure if Stevie Nicks has ever admitted to being Pagan. We assume that she is due to her song lyrics and some of her behaviors in her younger days. She used to deny it vehemently.

Demeter

October 24th, 2002, 06:36 PM

Originally posted by Belteshazzar

1. Are "christmas" and "easter" still considered Pagan holidays?

Depends on who's doing the considering. As a Pagan, I celebrate Yule, which is right before Christmas ... then I go celebrate Christmas with DH's family. Yule, for me, is the religious celebration, Christmas is a family one.

2. What is the Pagan origin of these holidays?

Many ancient pagan cultures celebrated seasonal holidays. Yule marks the longest night of the year, and was often celebrated with fires and lights. Ostara marked springtime, flowers, fertility, and all that. Bunnies, baby birds, people who hadn't seen other people in months due to snow showing up with new babies, etc. Lots of the symbols of these seasons as celebrated today relate more to the northern European pagan customs than to Middle Eastern customs. (I mean, I don't think any of the three magi was named Santa Claus, and I don't recall any egg-laying rabbits in the story of the Passion. I've often thought the juxtaposition of Nativity camels and Santa's reindeer on people's lawns is rather silly.)

3. Are all Pagan gods and godesses equal in power?

Depends on who you're asking, and how you define "power." Personally, I'm not a hard polytheist. I'm a monolatrist. I believe there is One source of divine energy, but that source has many many Aspects to which we can relate. Demeter, Zeus, Ishtar, Cernunnos, Buddah, Yahweh, Tezcatlipoca, Allah -- all Aspects of the One. Now, some Aspects cover wider "portfolios" of responsibility, if you will, or have more people looking to them, so you might consider those more "powerful." Or you might look at it the way the Japanese do - the kami of all swamps has a lot of power, but it is poorly focused; the kami of THIS swamp has less power, but it is tightly focused on the mud at your feet - which one is going to be of more concern to you?

4. Do Pagans believe in evil spirits?

I believe in several different kinds of non-human spirit entities. Most of these have their own purposes, and sometimes these are at odds with human purposes. These can be seen as "evil" by the folk who find themselves in opposition to them. For true evil, however, you need to turn to the thought-forms created by the human mind. These "spirits" can attain a semi-independent existence and go about searching for new people to influence or terrorize.

5. Nothing in the known universe has happened without a cause. (cause and effect) What would you say is the "cause" of wars, starvation, violence, and all forms of suffering that have been upon mankind?

The ultimate "cause" of suffering is the existence of the world in a state of flux. As long as change happens, it will affect some beings positively, and some negatively. Things are born, and things die. Things eat and are eaten. There are droughts and floods. Suffering happens.

Humans have the ability to foresee changes, to plan for them, to ameliorate them sometimes, but also to make them worse. Many cases of suffering I have seen happen at the intersection of natural change and human idiocy.

Humans have the innate capacity for violence that most animals have; if we could not attack, we could not get meat to eat, or get land or mates. If we could not defend, the lions would have eaten us long before the first fire was lit. Again, our ability to foresee and plan and decide can make this better, or worse.

Starvation happens when the numbers of the people and the ability of the land to produce are not in balance (whether because of drought or because of bad farming practices).

Wars happen because people cannot figure out how to reduce economic or social stress in any other way (that innate tendency to violence again).

But through suffering comes growth; if everything was hunky-dory all the time, there would be no need to progress, to try to make things better.

Flar's Freyja

October 24th, 2002, 07:04 PM

I remembered. Cybill Shepherd.

Editing to add:

I found this site while searching for information to post on Samhain in my forums. It contains a lot of good information on the origin and tradition of the upcoming Sabbat and has some good links that may answer your questions about the others:

http://www.paganet.org/pnn/1997/Samhain/samhain.html

Belteshazzar

October 25th, 2002, 06:28 AM

Originally posted by Semele
He was one who was very well versed in magik and how to raise energy.

Semele,

Can you tell me more about what is meant by "raise energy"?

Does it originate from the Hindu practice known as "Kunalini"?

shaz

Belteshazzar

October 25th, 2002, 06:46 AM

Demeter,

Thanks for your all answers and welcome to the discussion!

I particularly found your answer to question #5 to be stimulating, even tho my convictions are the opposite to a degree. However, it challenges me to think more in depth ....and I like that!

The main problem I site, is the problem most common in our society. Lack of moral accountability. It is circular reasoning in my opinion. ("it" is the fault of society ....which is the fault of conditions (flux) ....which is the fault of society ...which is...)

Is this topic worthy of it's own thread?

shaz

Flar's Freyja

October 25th, 2002, 10:45 AM

Originally posted by Belteshazzar
The main problem I cite, is the problem most common in our society. Lack of moral accountability. It is circular reasoning in my opinion. ("it" is the fault of society ....which is the fault of conditions (flux) ....which is the fault of society ...which is...)

Is this topic worthy of its own thread?

shaz

It very well might be. Could you expand on how you define morals? My definition is that morals are both the inherent and learned values that we develop from life experience and the beliefs resulting from our individual relationship with the Divine. We have personal and individual morals that may or may not agree with societal norms. For instance, the person that claims that they value equality but whose behavior indicates that this only applies to people who are like them.

An interesting thought:

If we each contributed two percent of our income, we would completely eliminate poverty in the world.

I see selfishness, self-centeredness and the need for control, power and superiority as components of the cause, which creates similar effect - you're absolutely right, it's a circular argument ;)

Semele

October 25th, 2002, 03:48 PM

This is very simple when you think about it. Have you ever been to a revival or worship service or even just a prayer group where the entire room semed to be filled to the brim with love and energy. I mean the type where everyone is so connected to God and one another that they are reluctant to break the magik and leave. You can feel every little vibration of energy because you are so tuned into it and thus you open yourself up to more. However, in my opinion, the biggest reason you can recieve more is because you freely share it with those around you via hugs and smiles etc. This was one of my favorite times as a child growing up in church. To see the adults around me get so enthused and excited about something I could neither see or hear was amazing. I have fond memories of my father with his hands raised to the heavens in praise and just singing and smiling and he would glance at me and smile or gently brush my cheek and the feeling was electric. Even though, at the time, I didn't understand what made him feel so good..I knew he was kind enough to share it with me.

This is raising energy. It can occur during anytime of intense joy, even and some would say especially during intimate times with your lover. Drum circles are notorious for raising energy, as I am sure Freyja can attest to. It can be done alone, although it is a little more difficult. You have to rely on your own feelings to generate the open channel needed to keep the flow strong. As I said before it is my belief that you have to release the energy or else you can become full and then actually create a block for any further energy from any source. (I believe we all exchange energy on a daily basis with one another, in conversation or even in passing on the street.) If you do not have an outlet for the energy, I believe you harm yourself and possibly others. Yes it is good to recieve Universal energy, but it is even better if we give it back and keep the flow continuous.....BALANCE.

The question then becomes, where do we direct the energy when we are doing a private raising of energy? Well, there lies the answer to most of your magikal works. If I am attempting to send energy to a friend who is ill, I cannot send my own energy, or I would have nothing left very quickly. I have to tap into that Universal energy and try to direct it to the person I am praying for. Sometimes a candle to focus on is a good idea for me.

If I am just wanting to raise some energy to recharge myself, I direct the energy flow back at the earth, because I feel the earth always needs energy since it gives us so much. This is a way for me to be an open channel without creating a blockage and it benefits the earth. I picture the Magician card from the tarot. If you have never studied tarot, I think you should. The major arcana tell an awesome story and they stand for different stages in life, much like the developmental stages identified by Erikson or Freud. They are a good read if nothing else. I don't so much use Tarot as a form of divinition to do readings for others..I have and can, just don't very often. I do find that I associate the different cards with different aspects of my life though. There is a story entitled the Fool's Journey that I think you would enjoy.

Sorry, I am not really familiar with the Hindu practice you mentioned, although I am sure it is very similar. Many cultures have practiced some form of energy manipulation.

Semele

October 25th, 2002, 03:52 PM

I was just going to say that as for the question of whether to start new topics or not...sure why not. Sometimes we get into such lengthy and deep discussions in one thread that we branch off so much it can become quite confusing and hard to keep up with. When in doubt or if there is a particular topic we want to discuss in more detail, by all means give it's own thread! We have plenty of room! For instance my last response RE: raising energy might have fit better in Divinition where more folks who might be interested would see it.

WARNING: This multiple interesting posts can and has lead to serious Mysticwicks addictions. There is no known cure, just lots of company in the nuthouse!:D

Flar's Freyja

October 25th, 2002, 04:07 PM

:) Actually, we have a thread on the energy topic in Magick and Rituals.

Demeter

October 25th, 2002, 04:37 PM

Originally posted by Belteshazzar
Demeter,

Thanks for your all answers and welcome to the discussion!

I particularly found your answer to question #5 to be stimulating, even tho my convictions are the opposite to a degree. However, it challenges me to think more in depth ....and I like that!

The main problem I site, is the problem most common in our society. Lack of moral accountability. It is circular reasoning in my opinion. ("it" is the fault of society ....which is the fault of conditions (flux) ....which is the fault of society ...which is...)

Is this topic worthy of it's own thread?

shaz

If you look at what actually causes pain and suffering, there are very few basic causes.

First is natural causes - famine, floods, disease, etc.
Second is accidents. Random chance.
Third is human stupidity/ignorance - which can look like accidents, or can make a natural cause worse (like the people who are building an earth-based dam on top of an earthquake fault on the river that already has some of the deadliest floods in the world ... )
Fourth is human intent - crime, drugs, wars. All things descending directly from human choices, either individually or en masse.

Three out of four of those causes have no moral load. Or if there is a load, then it belongs on the One who intentionally designed a system that required that things be killed and eaten, that earthquakes happen, that people trip and break their arms ... that people have the intelligence to make choices to drastically alter their environment. That is, if one believes in a force or being which created the system by intent and continues to guide that system by intent, tweaking each little detail ...

Your "main problem" indicates that it is only the fourth cause of suffering that we are concerned with here, and even in this case, sometimes the moral load is ambiguous. If I want to eat meat, it is necessary that some animal suffer and die for it. If a tribe is being forced out of its home by drought, and it must make war on another tribe in order to take new territory, the invaders see their cause as "good" -- they don't want their children to die of starvation -- while the invadees see it as "bad." There is rarely -if ever - an objective way of measuring the moral load.

I am generally less concerned with ultimate causes (Was it God's fault that that child died of leukemia - or a random gene change caused by a cosmic ray - or are the parents responsible for living too close to a power line? Did Satan tempt this person into injecting lethal amounts of heroin into their veins - or was it a bad initial choice to try heroin in the first place coupled with a physiological susceptibility for the stuff - or is the person just scum?) and more with what we can do with the situation as it pertains now. (What can we do to help that child get better? If it doesn't get better, how can we help the family deal with grief? How can we work to improve treatments so maybe the next child won't die? How can we get that person into addiction treatment? How can we make changes so it isn't profitable for the dealer to sell the stuff? How can we educate the young so they will be less likely to try it? How can we give them options so dealing won't be their best career choice?)

If we must find someone "morally accountable" I'd say it's the person who finds their own morals just fine, thank you, it's those despicable people over there who are the problem .... and then does nothing.

Flar's Freyja

October 25th, 2002, 05:32 PM

Well said, Demeter. I mentioned in a previous post that I have dealt with many clients in my profession from similar backgrounds and who have experienced the same challenges yet fail to succeed in breaking various cycles. I would have to include my own siblings in this comparison. The four of us were raised in the same home and taught the same morals and values yet I am the only one who has broken generational patterns. Your proactive approach could heal many of these ills but run some of those by legislators in my state and see what happens. Children and the poor are a very low priority here. A program is more likely to pass if it benefits those in office and not the general public. Mental health services for children are practically non-existent in Oklahoma thanks to the good ole boy politics here.

My sister has multiple disabilities from a severe childhood illness that nearly killed her. She lost her first child to SIDS and was not only investigated by Child Protective Services but was also told that her baby did not go to heaven because he had not been saved or baptized. She attempted to work for many years when she should not have. As she gets older, the problems increase in severity. She has been trying to get disability insurance payments for five years without success while I have run across numerous individuals who are perfectly capable of working and are living on the middle class level. As a result, she continues to deteriorate into the depths of poor health, poverty and depression. Her disabilities are obvious to the human eye and yet she is told that she can productively hold a job. In the meantime, her son and daughter have emotional and drug problems that she can't even recognize due to her own circumstances. So, those who can see and do nothing have caused the demise of not one, but everyone who is part of that family system, present and future.

Belteshazzar

October 26th, 2002, 11:50 AM

greetings everyone!

I just want to tell you all that I do really appreciate your answers. I think the key to understanding (truth) is balance. Therefore, it is important that we listen to opposing views, so that we don't adopt a policy of one-sided reasonong. (at least for me anyway)

Semele,

What an insightful reply! Tell me, this John Edwards character on TV, ...he claims to be channeling energy etc. ...Is he for real in your opinion?

Freyja,

Interesting replies also.

You defined "morality as being "inherent" and "learned". I agree. Both good and bad morals can be demonstrated as "inherent" and "learned". However, by definition, "inherent morality" would obviously come before "learned morality".

For example: Did you teach your children to do "wrong"? (lie, cheat, steal, fight, behave selfishly etc..) There things are "natural" for infant-toddlers to do reguardless of their enviroment. Ironically, as parents we teach them not to do what "seems right" to them, and teach them a better way. (good morals)

You also said "I see selfishness, self-centeredness and the need for control, power and superiority as components of the cause," ...to which I agree. But the real question here is "what is the cause of selfishness, self centeredness and the (desire) for control, power, and superiority? .....The answer to this question is what seperates our world views, i think.

And you are right. There is no good reason why people are starving. We all know there is enough food to go around. God's provision in nature is more than perfect in my opinion. The reason people starve is because of "all the above", not to mention the corrupt systems of this world. Most of the US aid sent to Africa gets absorbed into the corrupt systems there. Most "non-profit" oranizations use as much as 80% of their funds in administrative cost. However, there are a few organizations like "World Vision" and "Compassion International" who have managed to keep operating cost around 20%. That means if you give $20 a month, then $16 dollars will actually make it to the needy ...instead of $4.

Demeter,

I guess the question I would ask you is ..."is our world a "perfect" or "imperfect" world?

In order to answer the question, I think you would need to define what a "perfect world" is.

I am considering starting a thread title "Genisis Theology" to deal with this issue. "Genesis" means "the beginning" or "beginnings ....so I can't think of a better place to start than from the beginning. Of course not everyone will agree with "what" the beginning is, so I will carefully set it up so we can discuss/disagree on a point by point basis.

All in favor say "aye" ...all opposed say "nay".

I will check in Monday and Tuesday, if it is favorable, I will try to construct a playing field for our discussion.

I hope eveyone is having a great weekend.

shaz

Danustouch

October 26th, 2002, 01:17 PM

Okay, I know I said I wouldn't be replying here anylonger...but...I felt I had to make a few points.

First of All, as far as what "MAKES" human beings greedy, selfish, warring, whatever, that means that first of all, you must make a generalization that MOST human beings are this way. I personally, do not agree that MOST human beings are this way. I believe it's the few that are, who happen to unfortunately, have such a huge impact. Usually, they are the ones with money, the ones with bombs, the ones with land, etc. They could be driven by Mental Illness, or any one of a number of other things. Mental Illness, to me, does not come from Sin. People are BORN with Mental Illness, in many cases, or at least, with a tendency TOWARD mental illness. And then environmental triggers just "Set It Off". Now...obviosly, Satan, or Sin, has little to do with the way a childs brain forms within the womb. Their chemichal imbalances, or whatever. Obviosly, some people are exposed to a great deal of immoral, or unethical, or abusive behaviors while they are young, but because they were not predisposed to mental illness, or socio/psychopathic behavior, they did not succumb to it. Most people rise above the problems in their childhood, and move on, and are better people in the long run. Some, Succumb to it. Like the Hitlers, The Stalins, The lenins, The Osama Bin Ladin's. If it were true that MOST people are greedy, barbaric, immorral, beings, then we'd probably have self destructed as a society, LONG before now. And people of ALL walks of life, have succumbed to power, to greed, to barbarism, to hatred, Christians, Islamics, Jews, Pagans....Therefore, it is my conclusion that Religion..or religious devotion, plays a very "small" part in what causes a person to be moral, or immoral, greedy, or giving, hatefilled, or Tolerant.

What I believe the cause of All this Hatred, War, Starvation is, Is Fear. Was it Neitze who taught this, or one of the other philosophers??? That all we do, as human beings, is done in a state of fear. We are Animals, like the term or not. Our brains might be larger, we may have developed opposeable thumbs, but we are STILL animals. Still created with Animal Instincts. Fear is an ANIMAL instinct. Fear is what drives us to succeed, to protect ourselves, and eachother, to invent things, to have goals, etc. But it is also the root of many...for lack of better terms..."Evils". Fear can be taken to another extreme. Where setting up fences, or protecting yourself is not enough. Now, you must march into someone else's land. Because you fear that THEIR lifestyle, may eventually encroach on your own shores. That the things you disagree with happening in their own country's, may start to happen in your own. Fear can cause you not only to stock up on your own provisions, and develope better methods of farming, and agriculture, but...cause you to HOARDE your natural resources, and not share them with people who are less developed. Fear can be both the greatest motivator, and the greatest "Murderer". Fear does not come from Sin, imo. Nor from Satan, or anything like that. Fear is simply an ingrained, instinctual response. Some are simply more prone to taking it to extremes, than others. Study the "Fight or Flight" concept. Study the pattern of differen't animals in the animal kingdom. I don't have references immediately on hand for this, but...with all the nature programs I have watched, I realize that Animals do not behave all that differen'tly than Human Beings.

Animals, when in "rutting" season, will become extremely territorial, and volatile. I can't help but equate this, with the hormonal fluctuations, and indeed, hormonal dysfunctions that sometimes, human beings endure. Men are constantly saying that Women who have PMS can be "Bitchy". And Women are constantly pinning the root of all male aggression, on Testosterone. We liken that, to Animal behavior. "God" created Human Life, and Animal life. So therefore, he must not have created us "Wrong". It's simply the way we ARE.

Animals, during times of drought, will become incredibly territorial over watering holes, over hunting grounds, over grazing pastures. Likewise, Human beings, I believe, will become more inclined to war, when we fear for our economy. When we feel that our Oil is endangered, when we fear for our basic necessities in life. This can be seen as both the motivation for Islamic Radical Groups (who want their territory in Israel) AND part of the motivation for America going into Iraq (to protect our oil supplies).

When you behave, around an animal, in a manner which they do not understand, which scares them, or intimidates them, they lash out. For instance, I didn't know this until a few years back, but do you realize that if you even raise your hand toward a rottweiller, without ever having hit it in the past, or without even any intent to hit it, their natural, evolutionary instinct, would cause it to snarl, and in some cases to bite? (of course, not all rottweillers, but it is one of those things they teach adoptive rottweiler parents NOT to do....just in case). Well..consider how many of our wars are caused, by cultural differences, and fear.

Fear of Communism, taking over the US. It's differen't. We don't like it, It scares us. So we have to go to war to defend ourselves from it.

Think about how directly after Sept 11th, you heard SO much about the plight of women in Afghanistan. Obviosly, the government knew that to foster sympathy toward their war in Afghanistan, they should also let us know how terribly differen't the Taliban's ways were, than ours. And I'm not saying that's the main reason we went to war with afghanistan, don't worry about that. I'm quite aware that it was in retaliation, and for protection, against tragedies such as Sept. 11th. However, they added that extra little sympathetic factor into the mix, with airing all those stories, about the Women of the Taliban. It's far easier to see someone as an enemy, when their way of life is so differen't than ours, and so abhorrant in our worldview. To me, it's really not much differen't than what we see in the animal Culture. A human being doesn't just walk into a den of lions, and expect to be welcomed. We smell differen't. We look differen't. We make differen't sounds. We FRIGHTEN them.

Instinct. Evolutionary INSTINCT is what causes all of the ills in this world. IMO. And God created us WITH this instinct. But ...when mental illness, or lifestyle factors interact with our instinct, they can sometimes have disasterous results. There have been many human beings, and I'd even hesitate to say MOST human beings, who try to overcome our basic animal instincts. To seek enlightenment. And this isn't just reserved to people who believe in Jehovah, or the Devil. It's people who pray to Bhuddah, Wakan Tanka, Cernunnos, Athena, Krishna, the Earth, Their own "higher mind". Some people look within, or look upwards, to try to find the way to conquer animal instinct. And it's the Path TOWARD that goal, which separates the "Just" being, from the "Unjust". And as I said. Those who are "unjust" beings, may either come to "enlightenment" in their own time, in their own way, perhaps even in their next life.....or..they simply never will. And what makes them never try, can be one of a million things. Mental Illness, Chemichal imbalance, Fear that won't go away, Paranoia, Issues in their childhood, whatever.

That's my opinion.

As for the Creationism thread...I dunno. Reminds me too much of a Bible Study ;) and I'm not really interested in that...so..I'll wish you luck with it, if people decide that that is something they wish to participate in, but....as for me, I'll refrain :)

Danustouch

October 26th, 2002, 01:23 PM

Incidentally, Shaz, there's already a thread floating around in this forum, Creationism vs. Evolution. Look it up :) It may already answer some of your questions about our views on the topic (though I havent' read the thread myself, so can't say for sure) :)

Belteshazzar

October 26th, 2002, 07:32 PM

Originally posted by Danustouch
As for the Creationism thread...I dunno. Reminds me too much of a Bible Study ;) and I'm not really interested in that...

Danustouch,

Welcome back!

I think you have misread the intent of my post. I was not talking about the "physical beginnings" of Genesis, but rather the "spiritual beginnings". I wasn't looking for a debate either. I was simply proposing to start a thread on the topic of the "cause" of immorality, because of the interesting comments I recieved in reguards to that question. The idea was more of a comparisson of world views rather than a bible study.

Do you still see this thread as unproductive?

shaz

Flar's Freyja

October 26th, 2002, 08:55 PM

Originally posted by Danustouch
Incidentally, Shaz, there's already a thread floating around in this forum, Creationism vs. Evolution. Look it up :) It may already answer some of your questions about our views on the topic (though I havent' read the thread myself, so can't say for sure) :)

Shaz,

With the exception of the question about what causes pain and suffering in the world, most of the questions you have asked can be answered by searching several of the forums on this board; among them Magick and Rituals, Just Talk and New Pagans. I also must brag on the Frustration Support thread in Pagan Family. I spent several months putting together resource information on a multitude of issues for our members in the USA, Canada and internationally.

As for relating the causes of social ills to the book of Genesis, I must agree with Danus that this constitutes a bible study. While it would be an interesting and stimulating discussion to compare my professional and personal knowledge with the bible, it would be an unproductive argument and debate and I am not interested in participating in such. In discussing these issues, I would prefer to exchange opinions and thoughts with others with different professions, backgrounds and life experiences. I don't believe that religious beliefs and texts have much bearing on the reality of our world. I enjoy talking with you and would be happy to share my experience with and knowledge of paganism. I walked the Christian path for more than 40 years. This path is my spiritual home and I have no desire to retrace my steps since it was a very long journey.

I'm still intrigued by your statement that you thought Joe Pesci "looks" Catholic. In a previous post, I asked how one can determine an individual's religion or be sure of their national origin by their physical appearance or attributes. Perhaps you didn't notice it as you have not responded. My picture is on page 121 of the Member Pics thread. I've thought about it and one could probably figure out I'm in Oklahoma, but I think I pretty much look like a Heinz 57 otherwise.

Demeter

October 27th, 2002, 12:03 AM

Originally posted by Belteshazzar
Demeter,

I guess the question I would ask you is ..."is our world a "perfect" or "imperfect" world?

In order to answer the question, I think you would need to define what a "perfect world" is.

I am considering starting a thread title "Genisis Theology" to deal with this issue. "Genesis" means "the beginning" or "beginnings ....so I can't think of a better place to start than from the beginning. Of course not everyone will agree with "what" the beginning is, so I will carefully set it up so we can discuss/disagree on a point by point basis.

All in favor say "aye" ...all opposed say "nay".

I will check in Monday and Tuesday, if it is favorable, I will try to construct a playing field for our discussion.

I hope eveyone is having a great weekend.

shaz

Defining "perfect":

1. Lacking nothing essential to the whole; complete of its nature or kind.
2. Being without defect or blemish: a perfect specimen.
3. Thoroughly skilled or talented in a certain field or area; proficient.
4. Completely suited for a particular purpose or situation: She was the perfect actress for the part.
5a. Completely corresponding to a description, standard, or type: a perfect circle; a perfect gentleman. b. Accurately reproducing an original: a perfect copy of the painting.
6. Complete; thorough; utter: a perfect fool.
7. Pure; undiluted; unmixed: perfect red.
8. Excellent and delightful in all respects: a perfect day.
9. Botany Having both stamens and pistils in the same flower; monoclinous.
10. Grammar Of, relating to, or constituting a verb form expressing action completed prior to a fixed point of reference in time.
11. Music Designating the three basic intervals of the octave, fourth, and fifth.

In sense 1, yes, it is perfect. It is lacking nothing essential to the whole, it is complete.

In sense 2, we must consider that defects and blemishes are subjective. What is a flaw in a static crystal is a necessity in a living, growing, evolving system. What you might consider a flaw, I don't. I think if the world has a flaw, it is that humans have too much influence on other living things; however, since the world is a growing and adapting system, it will either adapt to the changes we have made or fix things by eliminating us and removing all traces of our existence.

None of the other senses are relevant to the discussion at hand.

As far as your Genesis Theology thread goes: If you are talking about the Book of Genesis, no. The Book of Genesis has no more (and no less) relevance to how the world was created than, say, the Eddas or the Popol Vuh.

Belteshazzar

October 27th, 2002, 12:27 AM

Originally posted by Freyja
I'm still intrigued by your statement that you thought Joe Pesci "looks" Catholic.

Freyja,

I don't understand why you would be so "intrigued" by that statement, as one can "look" muslim, jewish, baptist, etc...

Would you say he "does not" look Catholic? It is simply a silly observation that carries no judgemental or sterotypical overtones. I think you are trying to make a mountian out of a mole hill, and I am not sure why.

shaz

Belteshazzar

October 27th, 2002, 12:38 AM

Originally posted by Freyja
As for relating the causes of social ills to the book of Genesis, I must agree with Danus that this constitutes a bible study.

Freyja,

Really, ....a "nay" would have been just fine. No sooner than I clarified my intention to Danu-, ...then you re-misrepresent it. As I responded to Danu-, the idea is a world view comparisson, NOT a bible study. However, we would have to start somewhere, and I was simply offering to began the discussion from my view. This thread is too long to morph into a themed discussion.

I am starting to feel un-welcomed here. If my presence makes you feel uncomfortable, then please tell me plainly.

sincerely,

shaz

Belteshazzar

October 27th, 2002, 12:49 AM

Originally posted by Demeter
As far as your Genesis Theology thread goes: If you are talking about the Book of Genesis, no. The Book of Genesis has no more (and no less) relevance to how the world was created than, say, the Eddas or the Popol Vuh.

Demeter,

Thanks for your reply.

However, since no one is interested in a thread on this topic, then I am not going to respond any further as I do not want to disrupt the theme of this thread.

No, I was not talking about using the book of Genesis per se. I was offering to begin a thread by presenting a world view that is based on Genesis theology as a starting point. Then everyone could weigh in based on their own world view by comparisson. As i said earlier, a comparisson of world views.

At any rate, I think I have lost interest myself.

peace and blessings,

shaz

Danustouch

October 27th, 2002, 01:29 AM

I am considering starting a thread title "Genisis Theology" to deal with this issue. "Genesis" means "the beginning" or "beginnings ....so I can't think of a better place to start than from the beginning. Of course not everyone will agree with "what" the beginning is, so I will carefully set it up so we can discuss/disagree on a point by point basis.

Well..this was a rather "general" Proposal, as you didn't state the beginning of "what". Most people, when they see the word "Genesis" automatically think of the Genesis book of the Bible. Which, you have to admit, encapsulates BOTH the creation story, AND the beginnings of morality, in your worldview. So...could you clarify?

Secondly, as for debate, obviosly, there is going to be a debate, no matter what, in a thread such as that :) You'll produce your reasons for believing as you do. ...and we'll present ours. Your's will undoubtedly be based on the texts/teachings of your faith, plus your experiences, and so will ours. And I expect, knowing the beliefs held by most in Paganism, that they will clash ;) So..inevitably, it will become a debate. And when I said it was too similar to bible study, for my interest, I spoke correctly, imo :) I've been to many bible study classes, where a passage, or set of passages, was dissected, analyzed, discussed, and opined. And many times, people would debate that passage, from a differen't perspective. I don't know..I think what Freyja was saying, is similar to how I feel. And I know there are others here who probably feel the same way. I already know the bibles idea of the beginnings of morality/immorality. I already know the bibles' story of creation, and I feel i'm pretty well versed in Christian Theology. So...I really don't have any reason to participate in such a thread. As it would simply feel repetitive to me. :) That's just me, though, and maybe a few others who've come from a Christian Background, who have since found another path. :) Surely, I don't speak for all of the people participating in this thread :)

As for whether or not I still feel this thread isn't really productive...well...it's still pretty much *Not* for me :) But...I read a few of the more recent posts, and unfortunately, I'm the type of person that when something strikes me oddly, I MUST reply to it, whether or not it's particularly 'productive' or not. Just ask my husband. He'll tell you I have a shoe permanently attached to my lips..just for that reason. Perhaps it's the Irish in me ;)

Oh...and on THAT topic. I'm sorry if you felt attacked, however, I can really see Freyja's point in this, too. I don't think people can "look" like a religion. Unless they're wearing a medal of St. Jude, and a Huge Crucifix, I wouldn't necessarily assume anyone was Catholic based on ethnic appearance. For instance, Take an Irish Protestant, and and Irish Catholic, and stand them side by side, and tell me which is which ;) And Stand a Muslim, and a Hindu from the Kashmir region, and tell me which is which? Or...people from Kosovo. The Muslims, or the Christians there. Ethnic appearance is not always indicitave of their religious beliefs. Therefore, generally, I never make the assumption of a persons religion, based on their appearance. Made a few mistakes in my time, based on that, and learned my lesson. LOL. There was one time, I went to my Favorite Indian Food restaurant close to Ramadan. And I asked my waiter if the restaurant would be closed during Ramadan. And he said. "No. We have both Muslims AND Hindu's who work here, and I myself am Christian.". I felt pretty stupid ;) Felt caught doing Racial Profiling. Slapped myself pretty hard, but he was a sweetheart, and forgave me...and I tipped him REALLY huge, and all was forgotten :) Ok..i'm babbling, and digressing :)

Take Care, Shaz. Nope. You're not unwelcome. All ARE welcome here. But...that doesn't mean that ever topic proposed will be one that is immensely popular with every member :)

Belteshazzar

October 27th, 2002, 01:08 AM

Danustouch,

Thanks for your comments.

As for the thread, the reasoned I asked was to be polite and respect the feelings of those here.

As for "religious profiling", if I pointed to an arabic man and I asked you "what religion do you think he most likely is?" ....the first thing that would pop into your mind is "Muslim". .....If you would say it or not is another issue. However, political correctness has reached the point of absurdity in my opinion. When you go to an airport and see a mideastern man breeze through a security check while a pair of senior citizens are getting the 99 point check ......then it's time for a check-up from the neck-up ...IMHO.

Well, I don't have any more questions about Paganism at this time.

shalom,

shaz

Flar's Freyja

October 27th, 2002, 01:32 AM

Originally posted by Belteshazzar
Freyja,

I don't understand why you would be so "intrigued" by that statement, as one can "look" muslim, jewish, baptist, etc...

Would you say he "does not" look Catholic? It is simply a silly observation that carries no judgemental or sterotypical overtones. I think you are trying to make a mountian out of a mole hill, and I am not sure why.

shaz

Shaz,

I am a social worker by profession and also am still working through the culture shock of moving from the East and West coasts to the midwest ten years ago in regard to discrimination and bigotry. Quite frankly, an idea such as that really bothers me. For instance, I was a practicing Catholic when I moved to Oklahoma and was shocked to find out that Catholics are equated with pagans by many in this part of the country. I also experienced a good deal of discrimination as a single mother in the small, cliquish town I settled in upon my arrival in this state. I repeatedly saw the police and even teachers single out the children of low-income and single mothers while negative behaviors of two-parent, middle class children received no consequences. I also grew up on the East coast during the race riots in the 1960's. I feel blessed to have been a child in such a horrific time since I learned early on just how wrong discrimination and racism is. I work with all populations and it is my ethical duty to ensure that all are treated fairly in the system. It is also the foundation of my personal ethics. Social workers spend a great deal of time in college and licensure learning that personal value judgements must never affect any decision or action regarding a client.

I do not agree that anyone can "look" to be a certain religion. If I "looked" Pagan in the town that I currently live in, it's likely that I would not be as accepted and welcome in the community as I am so blessed to be. It's likely that it could affect my getting a job and my religion could be used against me in my profession. If I do look Catholic, it never prevented anyone from inviting me to their church.

I hope that this answers your question.

Danustouch

October 27th, 2002, 01:33 AM

Well...I'm sorry to hear that you've run out of questions :( Though Pagans generally don't believe in Prostheletyzing, That doesn't mean that we don't enjoy telling others about our beliefs, when asked :) Like any group, or individual, Pagans want to be understood. I'm grateful that we were able to provide you with some answers to your questions though. And you are welcome back any time. Maybe next time, you could even hang around in some of the other forums on Mysticwicks, and participate in some of the discussions there. We'd love to get to know more about YOU as a person, than just religious beliefs. And We'd Love to share more of ourselves with you, besides just our religious beliefs. That is what our welcome is :) Be part of the Family. Talk with us about anything, and everything that has happened in your day, or in your life. Share with us advice on varying topics, and perhaps receive some in return :) I do hope you change your mind, and stay, and get to know us a bit more. This isn't one of our most heavy traffic forums, so you may not have missed the opportunity to make alot of friends, and deprived us from getting to know you as a person, more :)

If you do decide to move on though, Best of Luck. And may you find all of the answers, that you seek :)

Flar's Freyja

October 27th, 2002, 02:12 AM

Shaz,

It sounds like you're dropping out of the thread and I'm sorry to hear that. As Danus said, you are welcome here. I would like to suggest something to you.

You may have noticed that most of us walked away from the Christian path. I think it may be more productive to your ministry if you posed some questions as to why we left rather than challenging our pagan beliefs.

I also want to clarify that I would have responded as I did in my previous post to ANY member or other individual making such a statement.

Belteshazzar

October 27th, 2002, 02:18 PM

Originally posted by Freyja
You may have noticed that most of us walked away from the Christian path. I think it may be more productive to your ministry if you posed some questions as to why we left rather than challenging our pagan beliefs.

Freyja,

When people start using terms like "racial profiling" or "hate speech" etc..., when it is contextually unappropiate, I feel it may be time to go. Personally, I find it very specious and unfair. Before I would start using such harsh tones, I would be certian I had a good reason.

As for your idea quoted above, I like it. This could be an insightful topic for both sides. I could learn from your experiences. And maybe ...just maybe, I might help you with any misrepresented Christian teachings or behavior. At the end of the day, we can both be better informed.

Let me know if this is what you had in mine.

Everybody feel free to weigh in on this one.

sincerely,

shaz

Belteshazzar

October 27th, 2002, 02:32 PM

Originally posted by Danustouch
Be part of the Family. Talk with us about anything, and everything that has happened in your day, or in your life. Share with us advice on varying topics, and perhaps receive some in return :) I do hope you change your mind, and stay, and get to know us a bit more.

Danustouch,

Thank you for a very sweet reply.

I never said I was leaving the forum and never coming back. I was just communicating that I was through with this particular thread. Most of the other questions I have can be answered by reading some of the various post here.

I am really glad that I took the opportunity to post here and gain a better understanding of Paganism. I know it will shape me into a better person, as well as a better servant of Christ. Had I not asked questions, listened and challenged your answers, I would be left with a "public perception" of Paganism, and not discovered what kind and sensative people many of you are.

I know some have taken my challenging style the wrong way. Understand that if you really seek to understand something, you must get beyond the "pat answers". By doing so, I gave you the grand opportunity to demonstrate the value of your convictions.

I will be poking around more as time permitts.

Have a great week.

shaz

Danustouch

October 27th, 2002, 09:37 PM

know some have taken my challenging style the wrong way. Understand that if you really seek to understand something, you must get beyond the "pat answers". By doing so, I gave you the grand opportunity to demonstrate the value of your convictions

Okay...just for the sake of clarification, were you speaking in general with this quote, or about your own need to search beyond the "pat answers" or about ours?

If you mean that I should seek to get beyond the "pat answers", or that anything I have said in this thread, about my spiritual convictions were "pat" I feel that is a bit condescending. Not to be argumentative, but whenever anyone implies that anyone's religion is full of "pat answers", I'd have to bristle. There's a thread in Just Talk, about an Article in a Dear Abby Column posted not too long ago, in which Dear Abby sort of "implied" that Paganism or Wicca are a "Stage" that teenagers sometimes go through. Many were offended by that, for the same reason I'd be offended at anybody calling my spiritual convictions "Pat Answers". That is certainly a matter of opinion. And for anyone to judge the nature, or strength of ones convictions, is, imo, unethical. Experience speaks louder than any words, or texts, or answers. Experience is the Grand Teacher. And many of us have experienced life on both sides of the coin. As a member of an Organized religion, such as Christianity, and now, as members of an alternative, non organized religion, such as Paganism. And it was EXPERIENCE that made us go in search of a differen't path. And what we've experienced once we've gotten here, has made us stick with it, and wish to grow in knowledge and faith :) Your experiences brought you to Christianity. Not somebody's logical explanations, I presume. Logical explanations, are a dime a dozen. Often, there are many "plausible" logical solutions to an equation, as Illuminatus pointed out. But Experience drew you to Christianity, and has kept you there. Just as Experience drew many of us, to Paganism, and kept us here :)

As for providing us with the grand opportunity of testing the strength of our convictions, the problem here, is that none of us asked for those convictions to be tested, necessarily. If we had wanted our convictions to be tested, we'd have sought out messageboards of alternative viewpoints, and sought to have them tested there. Testing is healthy, yes, but testing when at all possible, is best done in ones own time. Or, in random, uncontrollable ways of fate. Our faith and convictions are tested daily, just as anyone elses. Life throws you curveballs, many a time, and during those confusing times, your faith, your convictions..are "Naturally" challenged, and tested. Not all of us feel the need to go out and seek other people to challenge our convictions with :) We have our own problems, our own curveballs to deal with, in real life, day to day. I'm sorry, Shaz, I hope you take no offense at this, however, you saying that you have provided us with the grand opportunity to test the strength of our convictions, comes across as a bit condescending. I'm not pointing a finger at you saying you MEANT it to come off that way, since I am not inside your mind. However, that is how it came across. It implies that we have not BEEN tested in the past, or that we've simply given up searching, or questioning. It implies that we've simply "accepted" our beliefs, sight unseen, or without proof, without evidence, or even without serious examination. And that is just not true. This is why I felt that the thread was unproductive :) No matter what we tell you, about why we've come to our path, or how we've experienced it, or how real it is to us, there is really no way to make you understand, and accept it, because despite your asking us questions, you sometimes say things that make it fairly clear to some of us, that you've already made up your mind.

There is a philosopher, whom I don't usually agree with, by the name of UG Krishnamurti. I'd guess he's the prime example of an atheist. Anyway, one of the FEW things that UG says, that i've agreed with..is "I Cannot Help You". It doesn't mean that we shouldn't try, or that in some circumstances, Help cannot be provided. What it means, at least to me, is that "help" or "Understanding" have to be "Desired" honestly. If one has already pretty much made up their mind, then it is pretty hard to change it.

One final point, and again, Nothing I am saying is meant as an attack, or with any offense, whatsoever.....but..as for Freyja's suggestion of asking us why we left the Christian Path....I CAN see it being helpful, on one hand. It may open up peoples minds that our decision to become Pagan WASNT done so as a Fad, or in Rebellion, Or whatever else. But that it was both experiences, and deep thought that brought us to this point. HOWEVER, you said..

"I can LEARN from your experiences".

What do you hope to learn? How to better evangelize, or to be God's messenger (with the ultimate goal of being a better 'fisher of men' or winning more souls to Christ?) ? Or, to learn how to better argue your points with us? (For instance, finding more sources which argue our viewpoint?) Or That sometimes, Christianity is simply not meant for every human being on the face of the Earth? That sometimes, Paganism really is a valid alternative to the more mainstream religions, and that many of us have found much satisfaction, happiness, and spiritual health elsewhere? Be careful what you hope to learn....the answers might surprise you. :)

That's probably a thread I won't participate in. I've already related much of my experience (though not all), but besides that, my reasons for the choices I've made, are for the most part, very private to me. Not so that they can remain unchallenged, but because I don't think that anybody, can really understand why you have made the choices you have made in life, until they have lived in your head, in your shoes..in short..if they are not you. So it becomes a matter, almost, of speaking two very differen't languages. I cannot communicate my experiences to you. Because you haven't lived them. Thus, how much validity you would see in my experiences, would be based entirely upon your OWN experiences, which would, in the end, distort any "truth" that could be gleaned from such a conversation.

I would also have to ask, would this be a thread you started, mainly to see what answers are given? Or do you hope to counter some of those answers? That would be another reason I wouldn't participate...it would seem repetitive ;) It is entirely up to you, what value you would find in such a discussion. As for me, I am not sure it would hold any value, for either of us, in the long run, from what I have witnessed so far. :)

Oh..and as for the racial profiling bit...I won't comment about it again, since I don't harp on things over and over..but...My opinion remains the same. I know it can sometimes sound harsh, and it is easy to get defensive about things like that. We all make mistakes, and...I think racial or ethnic profiling of religions, is a mistake :) No offense meant by that. It doesn't mean you are unwelcome, or that we think you are a "bad" person. I just still think it's racial profiling. And...I never think that is a good thing.

MammaStar

October 27th, 2002, 10:12 PM

Well, I'm about to become un-popular...but I don't care.

I have a question Shaz. I've been following this thread since the beginning. And you have asked questions and people have been gracious enough to answer. Yet, you've continued, to condescend and convert, veiled thinly as "I want to learn" over & over. People here at MW are kind, sweet and respectful. So am I. to a point. Cracks like "joe pesci looks catholic" and attacking Frejya kind of irk me.

So I have a questions for you Shaz. Why is it so bloody important that we "see the light" and follow your path? Because, in actuallity...that's what you want from us all here. To repent and see the error of our ways.

I don't understand. Why can't you just accept the fact, that everyone. EVERYONE whether they be Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Pagan, Hindu, etc....get to the same place in the afterlife. We all basically belive the same things...just different ways of going about it.

I was raised a certain way. Doesn't work for me. THIS does. The Pagan path does fit for me. Why can't you be happy for me and the others because we feel EXACTLY the same way you do. You are happy. Joyous, estacic in your path. So are we. Why can't you accept that?

Like I said, I'm sure I'm unpopular right now. But at the moment...popularity doesn't really matter to me.

Flar's Freyja

October 28th, 2002, 12:41 AM

Originally posted by Belteshazzar
Freyja,

When people start using terms like "racial profiling" or "hate speech" etc..., when it is contextually unappropiate, I feel it may be time to go. Personally, I find it very specious and unfair. Before I would start using such harsh tones, I would be certian I had a good reason.

As for your idea quoted above, I like it. This could be an insightful topic for both sides. I could learn from your experiences. And maybe ...just maybe, I might help you with any misrepresented Christian teachings or behavior. At the end of the day, we can both be better informed.

Let me know if this is what you had in mine.

Everybody feel free to weigh in on this one.

sincerely,

shaz

Shaz,

I hoped that my post conveyed to you that my reason for responding in such a manner, good or not, comes from my professional and personal ethics. I also stated to you in another post that I would have responded in the same manner to anyone making a statement implying assumptions about religion, social class or behavior based on their appearance. It is something that launches me right into orbit and I feel no need to apologize for that. It is an issue that is central to the core of my personality and work. I did not use the terms "racial profiling" or "hate speech" in my post. In my opinion, such statements indicate underlying racism and discrimination. If you feel that my post had a "tone" this is more due to my style of writing and habit, since I report to the court and other state offices in my career.

I understand that you are operating from your own convictions and what you feel lead to do. I appreciate your offer to clear up misrepresented Christian teachings. As I stated in several earlier posts, I walked the Christian-based path for literally over forty years and I feel more at peace on my path than I have in my entire life. It isn't about the misrepresented teachings, Shaz. Yes, I attended some churches who had manipulated doctrine and the Bible to mean what they wanted it to mean. Yes, I've met some Christians who have no spirituality at all. I've met pagans who do the same. It's not about the behaviors of these folks, either. It's about how connected I feel to God, Deity, the Divine, The Lord and Lady or Mother Earth and Father Sky or the Man or Woman In The Moon.

I longer accept the Bible as the one and only true word of God. There are hundreds of texts written by religious leaders, gurus, doctors, psychologists and laymen that contain guidelines for living. I don't accept that I can only achieve salvation through Jesus and if I don't everything else I've done in my life and who I am are nil.

By disputing and challenging the responses you received to your questions with scripture, you are covertly being judgemental and implying that we will all burn in hell. I can get that on any street corner in Oklahoma or and occasionally through a pamphlet in a public restroom or restaurant table.

You are entitiled to your beliefs and as I've said, I respect all paths. I wish you many blessings. I believe that the Divine claims Her own in the way that She sees fit. The people that God wants you to bless with the sharing of your faith will cross your path. How would you feel if one of us registered on a Christian message board to challenge your beliefs? I feel that there are far more pressing problems out here in cyberspace that deserve our attention, such as predators.

Have you ever heard anyone say that they found God in a twelve-step program? Many people feel that they find God in these meetings not from the Big Book or other texts, but through messages that they receive through meeting and talking with others who open their minds and hearts and help them recover. Many of these folks had denounced God altogether in the throes of their disease.

A large part of my faith is based upon knowing God in all forms, including nature and most of all, my fellow man. This includes you. I understand that you feel that you are doing the work that God leads you to do, but what has actually happened here is that our discussion has only confirmed even more strongly for me that I am exactly where I am supposed to be. I've been doing a lot of thinking this week (along with a lot of driving) and have drawn closer to the Divine. This morning, driving on a beautiful highway surrounded by autumn leaves and fields, I was filled with joy and gratitude and never felt more sure that I am where I belong.

You have said that you are an evangelist. Although I've made it clear that I will not change my faith I would still be happy to talk with you about the reasons that I have done so. I only ask that you drop the challenges.

Blessed Be,
Freyja

Belteshazzar

October 28th, 2002, 06:38 AM

Originally posted by LdyStarlite
Well, I'm about to become un-popular...but I don't care.

Starlite,

Unpopular with who? Certianly not with the other contributors here.

Before I reply to your post, let me ask you a few questions. Why have you been following this thread? ...Was it not to see if I would step out of line? ...I think so. Is it possibe you have eager-ness to read-in what you want to? I think so.

For this reason, I have alot of respect Semele. She QUOTED the statement she had a problem with and gave me an opportunity to respond to the "specific" charge.

In response to your post, ......what makes you so sure I believe everyone here "CAN" come to Christ? I will let the scriptures answer this one for you.

Hebrews 6
6:4
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
6:5
And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6:6
If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

So my point is ....this is not the most fertile evangelical field, I know that. I spend most of my time sharing Christ with people who have never truly heard, speaking in prisons and working with teens. My objective is as I stated, to learn more about theologies and philosophies Paganism.

I see what you are attempting to do. And while my beliefs are diversely different form yours, you want to "expose me", so that you can justify your objections.

Don't you think that everyone knows what I believe already?

I have conducted myself appropiately. Therefore, your objection has to do with not accepting me for who I am. To the contrary, I have accepted everyone here for who they are.

shaz

Belteshazzar

October 28th, 2002, 07:36 AM

Originally posted by Freyja
I hoped that my post conveyed to you that my reason for responding in such a manner, good or not, comes from my professional and personal ethics. I also stated to you in another post that I would have responded in the same manner to anyone making a statement implying assumptions about religion, social class or behavior based on their appearance. It is something that launches me right into orbit and I feel no need to apologize for that. It is an issue that is central to the core of my personality and work.

Freyja,

By comparing my statement with your work experience, you are implying that my statement is "ill willed". If not, then you are either trying to censor me or draw me into a conflict. Whatever the reason, I didn't think it was very nice.

If I said "Joe Pecsi looks short and fat" ....would you feel the need to censor me?

What is the basis for such a statement?

At what height is he short, and at what weight is he fat?

Is this "physical profiling"? ...does it impy that I would mistreat a person because of their physical appearance?

Having looked upon and Arabic person, did the thought ever cross your mind he/she could possibly be Muslim?

Freyja, you have made an extra effort to engage in this discussion. Wondering why, my memory recalls a comment you made about how you admired my ability to avoid conflict. So I wonder if your goal is to demonize me by drawing me into a conflict. I don't know.

What I do know is that this is a technique very common in politics. That is, to take a statement that has not contextual "ill intentions", then present it to the public in a context of an ill manner.

Having said that, I am gonna let this strawman burn.

Feel free to have the last word. ;) I have no ill intentions towards you reguadless of what your intentions might be towards me. You seem like a sweet person.

shaz

Belteshazzar

October 28th, 2002, 07:55 AM

Originally posted by Danustouch
Okay...just for the sake of clarification, were you speaking in general with this quote, or about your own need to search beyond the "pat answers" or about ours?

Danustouch,

I think you have the highest word average per post that I have seen. :D

In short, "pat answer" was not meant as a criticism. I asked what the basis for truth, the "pat answer" was truth is subjective. So inorder to have a better understanding of what is meant by subjective truth, I probed deeper. And if it were not for Raevyn's answers, I would have never understood the basis for subjectivity. Once I understood what the basis really was, I quit asking challenging questions. <------- Don't miss that.

My sojourn here is a bit of a research process. But it seems the second I began to make friends (like with Semele) ...things changed. However, I think I understand why that is, and I don't want to make anyone here feel threatened becuase this is your place. If we were playing in my backyard, that might be different.

I feel I may have learned as much as I can without being percieved as an enemy. I hope I am welcomed to return if I have any future questions. ;)

Understanding that we have diverse beliefs, I feel that most everyone that I have dialogued with has been very friendly.

So I thank you.

shaz

MammaStar

October 28th, 2002, 09:16 AM

Originally posted by Belteshazzar
Starlite,

Unpopular with who? Certianly not with the other contributors here.

Before I reply to your post, let me ask you a few questions. Why have you been following this thread? ...Was it not to see if I would step out of line? ...I think so. Is it possibe you have eager-ness to read-in what you want to? I think so.

Several reasons why I'm watching this thread...I thought the topic was interesting, at first. My fellow staffers also noted that I should check it out as well. Because you see...as a Family and a Staffer on this board, I help out in other forums though I'm not the "official" mod here. I'm just making sure all is well. For the most part...it has proceeded with little trouble.

I have conducted myself appropiately. Therefore, your objection has to do with not accepting me for who I am. To the contrary, I have accepted everyone here for who they are.
shaz

I wish, I could truly believe that Shaz. Honestly. See, I've accepted the fact, that you are happy in your path. Just wish you could extend the same. I don't believe you do. No matter what you type out on the screen. My choice, my opinion doesn't make it right or true. Just what I think. I don't expect you to defend it, just as you shouldn't expect me to defend myself and my path.

I think an agreement here, between you and I, would be agree to disagree.

Belteshazzar

October 28th, 2002, 09:46 AM

Originally posted by LdyStarlite
I think an agreement here, between you and I, would be agree to disagree.

starlite,

Fair enough, ...I agree.

Just a point of clarification. Just because I don't believe in "paths theology", does NOT mean that I do not accept you as a person.

Otherwise, you are suggesting that *unless* I accept your theological premise that all paths lead to the same place inspite of the contradictions, then I am intolerant and unaccepting.

Kind of "dogmatic" ...don't you think.

Are not some Pagans "monotheist" and some "polytheist"?

It is possible to disagree and remain tolerant. It is also possible that some people like the *idea* that the christian is always the enemy ....because their beliefs are exclusive in Christ. ....So I couldn't win here anyway! :D

thanks for your reply,

shaz:D

Danustouch

October 28th, 2002, 01:43 PM

Shaz,

Because we are tolerant of other belief systems, I don't think we ask that you accept that we are "right" in our beliefs. However, I think the general concensus that you will encounter when you talk to pagans, is that we'd like you to be able to say "I believe that your beliefs are genuine. That you genuinely believe these things. I have no wish to change you. Because it is True to you. If you are happy with it, that's good enough for me. We diverge, but that's not a problem. I respect you enough, not to try to change you, and enough to say that I can see how much happiness your faith brings to you. And for that reason, I unconditionallyaccept you.". I personally, don't give a whit, whether or not you agree with every single belief that we hold. I personally, do not give a whit whether or not you think that our beliefs are contrary to your truth. What I do give a whit about, is whether or not you would like to change us. Whether or not you truly believe that ALL persons, have a right to practice their religion, without being scoffed at, without being a subject of bias, without being argued with on a daily basis. As we've said numerous times. Most of us, do not go to Christian communities, arguing their religion with them. Those that do, are clearly not supported in that endeavor. What we do ask, is that in our own space, in our own lives, we are not continually subjected to conversion attempts, or people trying to show us the error of our ways. Conversion attempts are seen as condescending, belittleing, disrespectful, and arrogant. As you've even admitted, your beliefs, are your FAITH. You will never "KNOW" for certain that your beliefs are the absolute truth. You can only "Feel" certain about them. That leaves a little window of possibility open, that it is NOT the absolute truth. And that you "Could" be wrong. That being the case, one would naturally assume that since you cannot "Know" but only "Feel" the certainty of your faith, that you wouldn't wish to argue us into changing our minds. We are still good people, as you yourself have witnessed. We lead our lives, as we feel we must. And thus, there isn't much ground for any conversion attempt. If we are ever to convert, it would be by our own will, in our own time. Some major thing in our own lives, which caused us to seek Faith in Jesus Christ. No logical, plausible argument, laid out in words could cause us to Accept Christianity as our own spiritual path. Only experience, could ever do so.

You've said that you see that this is not your most fertile ground for evangelism. And yet, by everything we've witnessed, you do persist in doing so. If your goal, is honestly to simply "Understand" why we believe the way that we do, you could simply ask your questions. Not argue our answers. Therein lay the proof of your intent. When true understanding occurs, the need for argument dissappears. If you truly seek to understand, then you wouldn't need to find counter-points, and information with which to debate our beliefs. You'd simply accept our answers, NOT as the ultimate truth, but as OUR truths (meaning, what we truly believe). If you still felt that it disagreed with your perception of reality and truth, then so be it, there would be no purpose in trying to argue with it. Just a shrug, and a "Ok. I see we differ on this. That's cool. That's fine".

Incidentally, you never did answer my question. Why is it important that you "Learn" from our experiences? What would you plan to do with that knowledge? Change your tactics? Change your arguments? Because Doctrine, and Gospel cannot be changed, can they? If we disagree with Christian Doctrine, and the Gospel, IF we disagree with the Established Church on so many issues, there is little way to argue around that. You could say it's merely a wrong interpretation, and try to correct that interpretation, but to what avail? Your goal, in doing that, would still be to change our minds...in essence, to convert.

The truth is, many of us didn't leave the Christian Church because of "authority" issues. We didn't leave because we didn't like the way that they expressed things. We left, because either we disagreed with the fundamental doctrines (and i would think that most of us who DID care enough to change paths when we disagreed, cared enough to research those doctrines BEFORE leaving), or because we simply didn't feel that it fulfilled us, on any real level. For a multitude of reasons. You keep saying that there is such thing as "Public Perception" of Christianity, as if it's a MIS Perception. Christianity does not hide it's teachings, or it's doctrines, or it's practices. We need go no further than the Sunday edition of our newspapers, the Religious Networks on Television, the Signs and Billboards along highways, the Christian Radio Networks, Our relatives, Co workers, Friends, to find out what Christianity is about. There is such an immense amount of information about Christianity out there! Whereas Paganism, has a HUGE problem with Public Perception, because for so long, people of our path were forced to hide their beliefs. Because the nature of various covens and traditions in and of themselves, are guarded in secrecy. And because there are such deeply rooted cultural fears and misrepresentations of those of our faith. IMO, it's an entirely differen't story. I don't think that I have perceived christianity in an innappropriate way at all. Everything that I have ever witnessed, from the Bible, from Evangelists, From Devotee's, To Media presentation, has backed up exactly what I have always known about Christianity. So...any clarifications you might pose about what you perceive to be misconstructions of your faith, are merely your opinions, or interpretations. Certainly not representative of the Entire Christian Faith/Organization.

Imagine, for one instant, how it FEELS to be a Pagan. In school, you may be banned from wearing your religious symbol. You may be taunted, and hounded about your beliefs, by fellow students. There was a girl who committed suicide last year, because of this. You are made to stand and recite the pledge, including the words "Under God" when inside you are screaming "GODS" or "GODDESS". You may have to endure miniature sermons, or prayers at school functions. You may be taught things in your class, and graded upon your answers, which disagree with fundamental beliefs that you hold (creation vs. evolution, for example). In some schools, you might even walk in to face carvings of the ten commandments on the walls, every day when you walk in. Your school productions sing about Santa Clause, and Angels. Or, even more bothersome, Jesus, Mary, and Joseph at the Winter Solstice, instead of singing about Snowflakes, the Sun being reborn, etc. That's just in school.

Try driving down the road, when you are a Pagan, and being met with bumperstickers telling you in mild to major ways, that you will go to hell for your beliefs. Billboards, screaming at you from the side of the road, with pretty much the same message. Churches EVERYWHERE.

Then you get to work. And there, perhaps your boss is a Born Again Christian. And, seeing your pentacle, your boss becomes uncomfortable around you, because of all of the misrepresentations of that symbol. They fear you, or despise you, for no good reason. They may gossip about you. And you have to endure days of tension, simply to earn a wage....if not fear for your position in that company in the first place. Then, You go home, and you are met at the door, by Christian Tracts left in your mailbox. Or a Mormon, or Jehovah's Witness at your door. You turn on the televison, and low and behold, it's a Billy Graham revival service on Channel 8! Or a Prayer by the Pope, on channel 9. And then, you see "Touched by an Angel", or "Seventh Heaven", or the "Pax Network" or That guy with the white hair, with his wife with a ton of makeup, and a big white wig, screaming at you over the television. Do you see what I'm getting at?

We are exposed to Christianity, constantly in our daily lives. The information is OUT THERE. We're constantly bombarded with it. This may be the only place, where we can go to get away from all of that, and be with people who believe as we do. Release the frustrations built up in a day, with people who understand your struggles. And then, we come here, and there is a Christian, claiming to wish to understand our beliefs, but then countering every point we make, with either biblical text, or doctrinal theory.... Can you imagine, if the situations were reversed, if Christians were the minority..how this would feel? The ancient Christians probably DID know how it felt. But..as Christianity grew, it seemed to lose that understanding.

Please, don't try to change us. There are a million people, every day, trying to do the same thing. Here, we wish to get to know you as a person. To tell you what WE believe, since the chances that you already know, are slim. To share peace, and respect with you. As a fellow human being, with an inaliable right, to follow their hearts in regard to pursuit of spiritual happiness.

I think that this is what LdyStarlite was trying to express, only in terms which conveyed her utter frustration. Sometimes, it's very hard to remain calm, and polite, when you get to a point where you just want to scream ..."Leave me alone. Let me be me. Accept Me, don't try to change me!".

Yes..I know that I write long posts. I'm a gemini. That's my prerogative. Verbosity is my gift. Better to write long posts, clarifying every detail, then to write two lines, and have you misunderstand the both :)

Mithrea

October 28th, 2002, 03:35 PM

Originally posted by Belteshazzar
Are not some Pagans "monotheist" and some "polytheist"?

Some are monotheist, some are polytheist, and some (like me) are pantheist.

MammaStar

October 28th, 2002, 03:49 PM

Originally posted by Danustouch

Then you get to work. And there, perhaps your boss is a Born Again Christian. And, seeing your pentacle, your boss becomes uncomfortable around you, because of all of the misrepresentations of that symbol. They fear you, or despise you, for no good reason. They may gossip about you. And you have to endure days of tension, simply to earn a wage....if not fear for your position in that company in the first place. Then, You go home, and you are met at the door, by Christian Tracts left in your mailbox. Or a Mormon, or Jehovah's Witness at your door. You turn on the televison, and low and behold, it's a Billy Graham revival service on Channel 8! Or a Prayer by the Pope, on channel 9. And then, you see "Touched by an Angel", or "Seventh Heaven", or the "Pax Network" or That guy with the white hair, with his wife with a ton of makeup, and a big white wig, screaming at you over the television. Do you see what I'm getting at?

HEY!!! I LIKE 7th Heaven!!!!! :lol:

Mithrea

October 28th, 2002, 03:56 PM

Originally posted by LdyStarlite

HEY!!! I LIKE 7th Heaven!!!!! :lol: [/B]

I do too! :D And also they play that miracles show (can't remember) on Pax and Diagnosis Murder (love that one) and the miracle pet show too with Alan Thicke! ;)

Ignore me, I don't have cable, it's one of the few channels I can get over the air ;)

Mythrel

October 28th, 2002, 04:29 PM

Danu, great post...that pretty much sums up why I love this Website...you found the words to express it better than I could have ever hoped for...thanks...

Belteshazzar

October 28th, 2002, 05:12 PM

Are you sure you didn't leave anything out? ....I was good for a couple more paragraphs. :D

Originally posted by Danustouch
You've said that you see that this is not your most fertile ground for evangelism. And yet, by everything we've witnessed, you do persist in doing so.

D- ....the way I see it, you have 11 or so pages with which to support this generalization. However, I will settle for one perfect example of me attempting to convert anyone to Christ. (please check context before posting)

Incidentally, you never did answer my question. Why is it important that you "Learn" from our experiences? What would you plan to do with that knowledge?

The knowledge is important to me because I am studying to enter the field of Christian Apologetics. (I will be glad to define this upon request .....it does not have anything to do with apologizing) In order to be successful in this field, it is imperative to understand the "heart" and "mind-set" of various philosophies, world views, religions ect..

The value of such knowledge is to understand others. I would use this knowledge in harmony with 1Peter 3:15 which tells me to always be prepared to give an answer (apologia) for the reason of the hope which I have to anyone who would ask .... So when someone from another world view (whom ever God may send) ask me a question where ...lets say ...they use the word God ......I won't be making any *assumptions* as to what they mean when they use a word like "god".

Change your tactics? Change your arguments? Because Doctrine, and Gospel cannot be changed, can they? If we disagree with Christian Doctrine, and the Gospel, IF we disagree with the Established Church on so many issues, there is little way to argue around that. You could say it's merely a wrong interpretation, and try to correct that interpretation, but to what avail? Your goal, in doing that, would still be to change our minds...in essence, to convert.

I can see you have your mind made up reguardless of everything I keep saying. So I will be brief.

Many here have changed my perceprion of Pagans, but have in no way converted me. This helps me to be more understanding of others. Likewise, I have tried to repay the favor, but you are not interested. It seems you prefer to hold on to your strawmen. I prefer to let mine burn.

Or, even more bothersome, Jesus, Mary, and Joseph at the Winter Solstice, instead of singing about Snowflakes, the Sun being reborn, etc. That's just in school.
Are you sure your not strectching it a bit. I live in the conservative south ....and I have yet to hear of a public school that does this. I find it highly unlike that would happen in the liberal north.

Try driving down the road, when you are a Pagan, and being met with bumperstickers telling you in mild to major ways, that you will go to hell for your beliefs. Billboards, screaming at you from the side of the road, with pretty much the same message. Churches EVERYWHERE.

I can see you frustration. But I can also see you indifference. So what if there are churches everywhere ...we are still a democratic republic.

Or a Prayer by the Pope, on channel 9. And then, you see "Touched by an Angel", or "Seventh Heaven", or the "Pax Network" or That guy with the white hair, with his wife with a ton of makeup, and a big white wig, screaming at you over the television. Do you see what I'm getting at?

I understand what you are saying. But why direct your hostility at me? ...Am I responsible for all this just because I believe in who Jesus Christ is and what He has said in His word?

We are exposed to Christianity, constantly in our daily lives. The information is OUT THERE.

And you can confirm that this information is accurate?

ssshhhweeelllll ! You must spend more time on it than I do. :p

We're constantly bombarded with it. This may be the only place, where we can go to get away from all of that, and be with people who believe as we do.
This is why I am attempting to make a gracious exit ....if that is possible.

peace and blessings,

shaz

Belteshazzar

October 28th, 2002, 05:23 PM

Originally posted by Danustouch
No logical, plausible argument, laid out in words could cause us to Accept Christianity as our own spiritual path. Only experience, could ever do so.

ohh ...BTW ...I agree!

shaz

Demeter

October 28th, 2002, 05:46 PM

Belteshazzar, I would like to recommend a book to you: Pagans and Christians by Gus DiZerega, Ph.D. It discusses the basics of Pagan philosophy, Pagans comments on Christianity, and Christian comments on Paganism, and has some interesting conclusions regarding common ground. I think you would find it interesting. I certainly get something new out of it each time I re-read it.

Belteshazzar

October 28th, 2002, 07:52 PM

Demeter,

Thanks! Sounds interesting, I think I will see if I can find it on Ebay first.

Take care,

shaz

Danustouch

October 29th, 2002, 01:15 AM

Shaz...I can provide quotes from the parts of your posts that I thought were subtly intended to convert, or evangelize :) I'll read through the thread again tomorrow, when I have more time, and paste them here, if you want :)

Just out of curiosity, what does Christian Apologetics mean to you? And why would it be necessary/useful? What i've read, has been a little confusing. The sites I visited tonight, claim both that Christian Apologetics is good, so that one may "defend" their religious beliefs against those who would mock, and such, which I can understand. After all, we are doing the same thing. Defending OUR beliefs, much of the time. However, while some sites mentioned the "Defense" role of Christian Apologetics, it seemed to link it hand in hand with evangelizing, witnessing, etc.

One site even listed the Evangelism Do's and Don'ts. I must say, after having read them, You're really covering the Do's, fairly well.
You've studied alot in your three and a half years :)

Here are some relative links, that others might be interested in reading, to get a better understanding of Christian Apologetics Role and Methods :)

http://www.waltermartin.org/cults.html#encount
http://home.earthlink.net/~gbl111/whats_new.htm
http://home.earthlink.net/~gbl111/apologet.htm
http://www.ses.edu/journal/
http://www.str.org/
http://hisdefense.org/
http://www.carm.org/

:)

Flar's Freyja

October 29th, 2002, 01:23 AM

Originally posted by Belteshazzar
Freyja,

By comparing my statement with your work experience, you are implying that my statement is "ill willed". If not, then you are either trying to censor me or draw me into a conflict. Whatever the reason, I didn't think it was very nice.

If I said "Joe Pecsi looks short and fat" ....would you feel the need to censor me?

What is the basis for such a statement?

At what height is he short, and at what weight is he fat?

Is this "physical profiling"? ...does it impy that I would mistreat a person because of their physical appearance?

Having looked upon and Arabic person, did the thought ever cross your mind he/she could possibly be Muslim?

Freyja, you have made an extra effort to engage in this discussion. Wondering why, my memory recalls a comment you made about how you admired my ability to avoid conflict. So I wonder if your goal is to demonize me by drawing me into a conflict. I don't know.

What I do know is that this is a technique very common in politics. That is, to take a statement that has not contextual "ill intentions", then present it to the public in a context of an ill manner.

Having said that, I am gonna let this strawman burn.

Feel free to have the last word. ;) I have no ill intentions towards you reguadless of what your intentions might be towards me. You seem like a sweet person.

shaz

Shaz,

Apparently I've not been able to communicate the "basis" for my reply. "Short and Fat" are physical characteristics that could be applied to anyone. Referring to someone as "looking" Catholic, Pagan, Protestant, Jewish, Christian often indicate racist and discriminatory attitudes. While physical characteristics might indicate someone's lifestyle, diet or heritage, they have nothing to do with their religion. And no, if I am going to make guesses about someone based on their appearance, religion is not one of the things that I consider. Unless, of course, I run into someone with a big ole pentacle. Then I smile and say "I like your necklace."

One of the reasons I walked away from Christian organized religion had quite a bit to do with the racist attitudes that are prevalent in the Bible Belt. I moved to this area ten years ago and continue to be shocked and disgusted when this repeatedly comes up. I feel that racism and bigotry are contradictory to Christian doctrine. That particular statement in your post really caught my attention. I did not bring the issue up to attack you personally but you are quite defensive about it. I stated my opinion and explained to you why I replied as I did. I also stated that the issue is a major pet peeve of mine and indicated that it may have caused me to overreact a bit. I'm not sure why we can't move on and why you are accusing me of having "ill intentions" toward you.

There is nothing in my posts indicating that I am trying to start conflict or that I wish you any harm.

Editing to add: The point I'm trying to make is that in my second post regarding the issue, I was referring to the statement and not to you personally. I also made the following statement:

I understand that you are operating from your own convictions and what you feel lead to do. I appreciate your offer to clear up misrepresented Christian teachings.

in hopes of conveying that I do respect your motivation although I do not agree with the way you went about things; i.e., stating that you had questions but also stating that you intended to use the thread to evangelize. I just noticed that in your post, you said that I was trying to "demonize" you. I stated that I am not interested in discussing my spirituality witn scripture as the main argument and I offered to provide you with other information:

As for your idea quoted above, I like it. This could be an insightful topic for both sides. I could learn from your experiences. And maybe ...just maybe, I might help you with any misrepresented Christian teachings or behavior. At the end of the day, we can both be better informed.

and you said you liked that idea. So, I thought we were done with the one and ready to move on. I certainly am. As for making an "effort" to participate in this thread, I was one of the first to reply early in the thread and have remained interested so again, this is an unfair statement.

Blessed Be,
Freyja

MammaStar

October 29th, 2002, 10:52 AM

Shaz, let me just chime in...the Pagans & Christians book....I gave it to a friend of mine. He's Lutheran and was interested knowing more and I loaned him my copy. He says he understands things a bit better now. So maybe this book could help you as well.

If you want, check the book forum (plug plug). We have a "recommended reading list" there. It might help you out for further info you're seeking.

mol

October 29th, 2002, 03:43 PM

Originally posted by Belteshazzar

I am starting to feel un-welcomed here. If my presence makes you feel uncomfortable, then please tell me plainly.

sincerely,

shaz

You are very much welcome here.

This thread however seems to sway back and forth with nitpicking arguments. Maybe a new thread on the subject is in order and those who dont want to particpate can steer clear?

bluecat

October 29th, 2002, 03:47 PM

Originally posted by Mithrea
Some are monotheist, some are polytheist, and some (like me) are pantheist.

And then there are some of us who have no dieties at all. Some are atheistic in their views and some, like myself, see the Universe as a being of which we and the dieties are parts thereof. This does not mean I worship that being, that is just how I see it.

Blue

bluecat

October 29th, 2002, 03:51 PM

Stick around Shaz, You are very welcome here! Crap, if we all agreed with each other, then what would be the point in having any discussion! We wouldn't be accomplishing anything.

Blue :cool:

Semele

October 29th, 2002, 04:18 PM

Originally posted by Belteshazzar

Many here have changed my perceprion of Pagans, but have in no way converted me. This helps me to be more understanding of others. Likewise, I have tried to repay the favor, but you are not interested. It seems you prefer to hold on to your strawmen. I prefer to let mine burn.

I love this quote from you. If anyone takes any message whatsoever from this entire thread, let it be this. Your mention of strawmen reminds me of a story I heard long ago where a farmer was trying to keep birds out of his crops, so he always had scarecrows all around. In his later years he decided the birds were nice and how he might like to make friends, so he removed all the scarecrows and stood in the middle of the field with his arms outstretched waiting for the birds to come to him. They, of course, never did, because from the sky the man himself appeared much like a scarecrow.

I think sometimes we hold onto painful memories and fears so strongly that we miss opportunity to meet new friends. We try too hard to protect ourselves from the scarecrows in the world, when in fact, how many times are they simply friends with thier hands outstretched?

This thread has gone in some interesting directions in which folks have been made to feel defensive, although I doubt it was ever the intention of anyone in the beginning. Some are just not comfortable discussing thier beliefs because they may feel they are being judged, we are many times. It is just nicer to not have to defend ourselves all the time...but sometimes, I feel we get defensive where there may be little reason. Scarecrows again. Shaz has stated his straw men are burned and I believe him and burn mine as well.

I am going to close this thread and start a new one, or ask Shaz to do so. This will be a new thread to discuss various aspects of paganism vs. christianity....just so noone is confused, we will be comparing and contrasting the two religious doctrines and possibly others. If it isn't something you feel you would be interested in then I ask you not to visit the thread. It isn't going to be a place to try and change minds about anything, but rather expand the knowledge and understanding of various practices and beliefs. I hope there will be many interested in the topic and a lot of good discussion...I know I am looking forward to it. I am also intrigued to learn more about Christian Apologetics.

With that, I close this thread and any hard feelings will be closed with it. This community will return to its state of balance and love and offer something for all who seek.