Selfishness and Spirituality...

[Sage Rainsong]

Hey guys,

I was reading a book called, "Va Va Voodoo," by Kathleen Charlotte and she had this FAQ section. One of the questions was, "Is it right for me to use magic for what I want?" There was on particular paragraph that caught my eye and I thought that others may enjoy the food for thought. Here it is:

"In the Western world, we are taught that saving the whale or fund raising for squids is really what spirituality is really about, and that there is something inherently wrong in putting ourselves first, or being rich, powerful and loved. But that only makes sense if a happy whale makes for a happy you or if money, power and love make you miserable, since the ultimate aim of any spiritual practice is to be happy. Putting the joy of whales before the joy of loving happiness is outward-looking. It deflects attention away from your personal needs and doesn't necessarily make you a more fulfilled person. As a consequence, you still might be miserable while the whales are gamboling with glee, but because you haven't got what you want, you just spread more gloom into the world."

Any thoughts?

[Rudas Starblaze]

screw everything, im more important! :thumbsup:

way of the witch No. 1.

[Toby Stimpson]

Its certainly an interesting perspective. I agree with and disagree with it at the same time.


In the Western world, we are taught that saving the whale or fund raising for squids is really what spirituality is really about, and that there is something inherently wrong in putting ourselves first, or being rich, powerful and loved.

I think there are two issues being raised here, the first is the ethic of putting others before you. I also think though that this statement is only true for some people, as the western concept of capitalism that is so intrinsic in all western cultures is to drive to put yourself first. I think what she is getting at is the narcissistic beliefs that can sometimes come with putting yourself first, ie. only placing importance in your own happiness as opposed to others.

I also don't think that being loved is taught to be a bad thing, I think narcissism is frowned upon because it denotes lack of awareness. I think that it's a double edged sword though because putting yourself first is important, but I do believe that's its wrong to only place yourself first because it exhibits a certain anti social behaviour that I dont think is natural. Putting yourself first though is a murky, contextual subject though and it can be perceived to be any number of different reasons or meanings dependin on the context of the situation. If that makes sense.

I also feel that this individual is coming from a certain perspective. I think that in certain segments of the white population in the west there is this drive to become more aware of issues and become activists... but I often wonder if these are genuine concerns for the issues or is it to simple alleviate a sense of cultural guilt that someone might be feeling? I know plenty of people, mostly white young student types who get involved and become 'aware' and then go on to preach and shout and disrespect individuals who they deem not to be in the right sensitivity as they are. So I do think that the author is painting with a pretty broad brush here.

I think another general issue is the difference and distinction between wants and needs. To say that people need money to be happy is a flawed statement, because I think what causes happiness with money is not having it but more the stability of not worrying about being able to survive. money ives people the ability to buy food, clothes, electricity etc,. If one has enough money to cover all their basic needs, and extras... then that is not stressful and can bring some happiness. BUT it doesnt stop misery from coming into someones life.


But that only makes sense if a happy whale makes for a happy you or if money, power and love make you miserable, since the ultimate aim of any spiritual practice is to be happy. Putting the joy of whales before the joy of loving happiness is outward-looking. It deflects attention away from your personal needs and doesn't necessarily make you a more fulfilled person.

I can see where shes getting at here but I think that she either misunderstands what a fulfilled person is, or has just not had the same experiances I have had. I feel my experiances do not relate to this mentality, and that there is a difference between fulfilling needs and being fulfilled. Its that difference between what a want and a need is. I dont need to be loved by people to feel fulfilled. I dont need to be powerful to be fulfilled. Others might. I can think that the moments I truly have felt fulfilled is when I was able to bring happiness to someone, whether they knew it or not. It made me feel as though I did something right... and it brought me happiness to know other people were happy. Thats a selfish thing, and theres nothing selfless about doing things for others because ultimatly I think hat drives someone to give time or ignore some personal wants to serve someone else is still fulfilling a need. As Humans everything we do fulfills some kind of need, whether that is giving someone a random present to make them smile (fulfilling the need of being loved and happy) or donating money to WWF to save Whales (fulfilling the need of reducing guilt). So on this, I cannot agree with her.



As a consequence, you still might be miserable while the whales are gamboling with glee, but because you haven't got what you want, you just spread more gloom into the world."

This statement again coms back to a question of wants vs. needs. If you are a miserable person... that misery is obviously coming from an unfulfilled need. But rarely does misery come from one source, I have found. It usually is an amalgam of many different thoughts, feelings and needs. But wanting something is a step up from needing something i feel. A want can easily go awaye... but a need is something that is intrinsic to your ability to function. I feel her argument though here is based around entirely this whale example, and I cannot really understand what she is getting at. What would the want be in this... and why would someone care that whoever you donate money to goes on and does something with it? I think that tha denotes certain expectations or wants of return and I feel as though if someone is doing something with expectations then they are setting themselves up for a failure as well as doing that action for the wrong reason. If you do something for the wrong reason, you obviously will not feel fulfilled afterwards because the need you set out to fill was not connected to your action.

I don't think anyone should feel guilty about having power or money, but I think the critical component about that is self awareness and awareness of where that power is coming from and what affect it has on others. If you worked hard for the power and money and whatever else, and you earned it... should you feel guilty for having it over someone who doesnt have it? No, I don't think so. BUT, at the same time, if tha power is a part of a system that oppresses systemically, then what role do you have as a person who has power in either changing that or relieving that oppression? I feel as though this individual is coming from the mindset that everyone is fully accountable and able to get anything they want. But we know that there are cultural and societal blocks in place to stop people (ie. the glass ceiling.).

I hope that all that made sense... in hindsight, I think i see wheres shes getting at but what is coming across is that she hasnt had some experiences that I think would be important to teach the difference between seemingly two different things. I dont know if this is true or not, but I do feel that she's writing from a very particular viewpoint that I cannot share.

[Toby Stimpson]

also, another thought!!!! :D

This paragraph also suggests that people need to go out and tackle huge world issues to feel fulfilled... I think that people can put themselves first and others first at the same time and find fulfillment in the smaller things in life. Having children, which is a very selfish act because you're continuing you're legacy, is placing yourself and others first at the same time. No one said that people have to change the world to feel fulfilled, and that is another piece I really don't like about the above paragraph.

However given some more thought, I dont know the whole context of her reply. In responce to the magic situation... I would tend to look at it by saying that fulfilling wants is not going to fulfill someone because it ignores needs... and there is a huge difference there... as I said :P.

[watersprite]

You have to develop your own inner self and admit to your personal needs. Besides the basics, a sense of comfort that keeps you happy. Many people find their own paths and explore them. The trip making them happy. I don't believe in the personal gain problem. But I also don't believe in using "magic" when my dog keeps peeing on the floor. There has to be a balance.

[9-2-2]

You're here to find your own path and lead your own life. Do magick for what you want and need. It's good to help others, but don't let everyone else walk all over you. The whales don't own you, and the squids don't own you. If you don't cast spells for them, they'll be fine. You also need to decide what spirituality means to YOU... don't let some dude coerce or guilt trip you into believing how they wish.

If saving the animals brings you closer to the gods, then go for it. If chaos and free will bring you closer to the divine, then go nuts. It's fine to discuss your beliefs with others, and to hear what they have to say. It's fine to change your mind about what you believe. But don't let anyone else tell you what kind of magick you *have* to do, and don't let anyone tell you what to believe when it comes to spirituality!

[Karri Morgan]

You're here to find your own path and lead your own life. Do magick for what you want and need. It's good to help others, but don't let everyone else walk all over you. The whales don't own you, and the squids don't own you. If you don't cast spells for them, they'll be fine. You also need to decide what spirituality means to YOU... don't let some dude coerce or guilt trip you into believing how they wish.

If saving the animals brings you closer to the gods, then go for it. If chaos and free will bring you closer to the divine, then go nuts. It's fine to discuss your beliefs with others, and to hear what they have to say. It's fine to change your mind about what you believe. But don't let anyone else tell you what kind of magick you *have* to do, and don't let anyone tell you what to believe when it comes to spirituality!


Yeah, I agree.

It`s easy to say, the best way to be happy is caring about others, rather than stress about your own misfortune. Problem is, this sentence does not do it for some of us.

Whenever I have been depressed, I have always thought "Who am I to be sad, I have food, shelter, and people dont rape me regularly". But it does not make me feel better, it makes me more depressed, and also very guilty.

So, I feel that, how we are fulfilled, it depends on who we are, and what we need. After we have tended to our needs, then we can help others.
Now, I hate to bring up the bible, cause I dislike it, but some of the ideas there are pretty good. For example, the blind leading the blind... If we are to make others happy, we cannot be gloomy and miserable.

However, some people actually get happy by helping others, so it works for them. There are always reasons why we are not happy. Different reasons, have different cures. I believe.

[David19]

You're here to find your own path and lead your own life. Do magick for what you want and need. It's good to help others, but don't let everyone else walk all over you. The whales don't own you, and the squids don't own you. If you don't cast spells for them, they'll be fine. You also need to decide what spirituality means to YOU... don't let some dude coerce or guilt trip you into believing how they wish.

If saving the animals brings you closer to the gods, then go for it. If chaos and free will bring you closer to the divine, then go nuts. It's fine to discuss your beliefs with others, and to hear what they have to say. It's fine to change your mind about what you believe. But don't let anyone else tell you what kind of magick you *have* to do, and don't let anyone tell you what to believe when it comes to spirituality!

QFT, I agree with you, you should do what you want, and follow your own path, if you want to help whales, and squids, fine, you should do that 'cause you want to do it. If you want money, power, sex, etc, you should go for that. Most people probably got into magic, and first started using it, for reasons like sex, power, money, etc (especially if you read any ancient spells, etc). Also, magic doesn't have to mean spirituality, it can mean that, again, if you want it to be, but, it can just be about magic, about developing magical powers, about having fun, etc.

I definitely agree with 9-2-2, and the author of that book (I might get it actually, if it's any good, Sage?). You should know yourself, know your motives, and follow them.

[HetHert]

You're here to find your own path and lead your own life. Do magick for what you want and need. It's good to help others, but don't let everyone else walk all over you. The whales don't own you, and the squids don't own you. If you don't cast spells for them, they'll be fine. You also need to decide what spirituality means to YOU... don't let some dude coerce or guilt trip you into believing how they wish.

If saving the animals brings you closer to the gods, then go for it. If chaos and free will bring you closer to the divine, then go nuts. It's fine to discuss your beliefs with others, and to hear what they have to say. It's fine to change your mind about what you believe. But don't let anyone else tell you what kind of magick you *have* to do, and don't let anyone tell you what to believe when it comes to spirituality!

Disco biscuits! It bears repeating again and again and again.

[Deerwoman]

In the Western world, we are taught that saving the whale or fund raising for squids is really what spirituality is really about, and that there is something inherently wrong in putting ourselves first, or being rich, powerful and loved. But that only makes sense if a happy whale makes for a happy you or if money, power and love make you miserable, since the ultimate aim of any spiritual practice is to be happy.Sounds like something from The Secret....:giggle:

A witch can do magic for the good of the world, for the good of others and for the good of themselves. Selfishness doesn't come into play at all - it is not selfish to pray for yourself, to perform a spell for yourself - I call that common sense. The aim of my spiritual practice is to learn and grow and connect better with my gods - not necessarily to be happy, that's a byproduct.

[lavenderdawn]

Robin Wood explores a concept of self verses others in her book on ethics, WHEN WHY IF. She says you are exactly as important as everyone else, not more, not less. There is a balance to be achieved between service and self and that balance is different for each of us. The important thing is being HONEST with yourself about your own wants and needs and where you fit. Most of us have been taught that it is always better to put others before ourselves, learning when it's right for us to put ourselves first is part of our journey. No one can tell you where that line is for you and each situation is different
Nobody ever said coming here was easy...

[~Audra~]

to make oneself happy, one has to do what they want to do...can you say "I don't want to save the whales?" or whatever...do that, too, you know. it gives you a sense of purpose, kind of like the feeling you get when you help another or whatever...not saying that you should do it for the glory, but i don't think the whales/whatever care your reason as long as they are being helped...

"Do what ye will..." and "harm none" go along with your question, i think...if you are doing exactly what you want, you will be happy or going towards it, anyway...and harming none, may it be the earth, fellow people, or animals, will enrich your happiness...

with that said, you should always look out for number 1...who else is really going to do this if not you? we all have our desires and they aren't always about pleasing others...take care of yourself first before you can expect others to care for you...that way, if "the one" becomes "the gone one" you'll have yourself to fall back on...

Love yourself above all others, if you don't, how can you truly love someone or something else...make yourself happy and others happiness will follow...

IMO :smile:

[Anteros]

Well, I don't think it's necessarily bad to ask for what you desire, although there is a difference between using magic and asking the gods. From a Hellenic perspective, if someone wanted something, they would pray to the gods and make an offering, not practice magic, because it's impious and insulting to the gods (and in my opinion, non-existent. I see magic as more of a placebo than a system that actually works).

The spiritually invalid act would be casting spells, not asking for what you want. If you ask the gods for something, and they will that you get what you ask for, that's fine. However, using imaginary magical powers that makes the gods seem inferior is not pious or a religiously valid way to work for what you want, or mentally healthy, for that matter, to assign oneself divine powers.

Just my opinion, though.

[kaosxmage]

Empowering yourself puts you in a better position to empower others ...including the whales.

[Solya]

*thinks* You know, I believe I can only do good and bring love to others if I first do good and bring love to myself. In that respect, at least, I put my own happiness first. Yet the source of my happiness also largely has to do with being able to help others, so it's a very circular pattern I'm in here. :) We've all got different purposes and different strengths and it'd be, well, wrong to force anyone to save a whale if that person didn't even care that much about a whale in the first place. We've got other whale-savers out there who're quite willing to do the job, after all. If you want to become a whale-saver, that's fine. If you don't, then there will probably be something else you want to dedicate yourself to instead. Play to your own strengths... that's the best service to the community I can possibly think of...

[Windsmith]

As others have said, there's nothing wrong with paying attention to your own needs and wants and fulfilling them - with as little damage as possible to your fellow beings. But it's a pretty miserable person who always thinks only of themselves.

Still, I cannot agree with this passage, because everything she says in it seems to proceed from this assumption:
the ultimate aim of any spiritual practice is to be happyWell, my goodness! How very clever of her to have figured out "the ultimate aim of any spiritual practice"! I'm ever so grateful to her for explaining to me that I've been wrong all these years about my aims and goals!

The ultimate aim of my spiritual practice is to make myself a more whole, integrated human being, and to leave my corner of the world in a better condition than I found it. And, you know what? That doesn't always mean I get to be happy. Sometimes it means confronting and embracing dark aspects of me that I would've just as soon kept in the dark. Sometimes it means not doing something I wanted to do because it would cause someone else a lot of pain. No one gets to be happy all the time, and if you're looking for that from your spirituality, you're going to be disappointed time and time again.

So, thanks for playing, Kathleen Charlotte, but no thanks. You don't speak for my spiritual practice, and your denigration of those of us who want something more than "memememe!" religion says far more about you than it does about us.

[*oonagh*]

well...i don't cast spells. but, you know, if a person is happy that person tends to make those around her/him happy. that seems like a good thing.

[skilly-nilly]

The whales don't own you, and the squids don't own you. If you don't cast spells for them, they'll be fine.

In actual fact, great whales now lack sufficent numbers for genetic sustainability, making them a poor example of a species to ignore in favour of humans' personal desires.


Hey guys,

Kathleen Charlotte [says]

"...the ultimate aim of any spiritual practice is to be happy."

Any thoughts?


The aim of my spiritual practice is to learn and grow and connect better with my gods - not necessarily to be happy, that's a byproduct.



The ultimate aim of my spiritual practice is to make myself a more whole, integrated human being, and to leave my corner of the world in a better condition than I found it. And, you know what? That doesn't always mean I get to be happy.


Just wanted to add my vote. I agree that happiness is not "the ultimate aim". Happiness is an emotion and the aim of any practice is not to feel an emotion, but to achieve something. We may feel happy in our achievement, or we may have to sacrifice happiness to achieve some greater good.

The aim of my spiritual practice is to achieve better communication with the Gods, being happy is completely incidental to that.