Does Panthesim Need the Application of Reason?

[TygerTyger]

During the holidays I had a conversation with my sister-in-law that touched on what we believe. She talked about energy and how she believes it can be manipulated, as in Reikii for example. Although I was interested I found her theories a bit disorganized, not particularly well thought out, and she seemed to lose the thread of what she was saying quite easily. I tried to explain to her my own Pantheistic beliefs and I discovered that actually my own thoughts are a bit disorganized too!

I know what I believe and why I believe what I do, but I’ve never tried to present these beliefs in a systematic or reasoned fashion. They work for me but when I try to explain them to others, they actually seem to be a bit confused.

Has anyone else made this discovery and if so have you done something to organize your thoughts?

[Windsmith]

Well, it helps me to break the conversation down into smaller bits. Not the whole of "What do you believe?" or "What is Pantheism about?" but more like, "What do you believe about death?" "What do you believe about the manipulation of energy?" Trying to sum up everything about what I believe would always, I think, lead to disorganized communication.

cheddarsox talks about the "Pantheism elevator speech": if you were stuck in an elevator with someone and had only 30 seconds to explain what you believe, what would you say? What are the salient points? What would you consider important enough to include in that brief "pitch," and what would you hold back for a deeper conversation?

The key to keeping your thoughts organized, I think, is to start broad and shallow (the "what"), and make going deeper (the "how" and "why") go hand-in-hand with a narrower focus.

[spiral]

I know how you feel, for a long time I would just tell people I was agnostic because I couldn't figure out how to put my thoughts about pantheism into words. Reading what other people have to say in this forum has helped!

I think a lot of the difficulty exists because, for me, my pantheism is about emotion - it's the way I feel about the Earth. I can't just say "I believe in God, and I live by the bible". It's about this feeling I have that nature is sacred and worthy of respect. It's hard to put that feeling of awe into words for someone who doesn't intuitively understand it.

Truthfully, I haven't done that much to organise my thoughts - I've let them sort themselves out gradually. In a way, I like not being able to pin my thoughts and feelings down completely - I think it keeps them fluid and open to change. For me the experience of them is more important than the explanation.

[Xentor]

Yes, I felt the need to sort out what I believe and put it in a structured form. I did that 2 decades ago.

Then I cut it up, expanded on it, and presented The Dialogues on Checkerism (http://www.omegajunior.net/leven/faith/) in manageable pieces on my web site.

Now people are asking for a single-file paper...

Is it a need in Pantheism per se? Doubtful. I seem to have a liking for well-structured thinking and presentation of that thinking. If a presentation just rambles on without any clear structure, I tend to ignore it, its author, and all ideas presented.

Yes, that is a loss on my part.

[Heart of All]

My boyfriend is Christian, and he was, at first, a little bit uncomfortable with my change in religion.

So I've spent a lot of time talking to him about it, explaining what I believe, things like that. Sometimes it's really hard, sometimes it's easier. But I'm actually really glad for having had to do that because now I feel like I understand myself and my own beliefs better for having done it, and because of that, I feel like I would be able to better explain them to someone new.

[TygerTyger]

...it keeps them fluid and open to change. For me the experience of them is more important than the explanation.

I would not disagree with that personally but I had an opportunity to explore a conversation on Pantheism with someone who knew little about it but was interested enough to listen and I did not, I feel, make the most of it.

I was not trying to convert her, just explain my belief but my ideas proved no less confused than her own on energy and how it can be manipulated.


cheddarsox talks about the "Pantheism elevator speech": if you were stuck in an elevator with someone and had only 30 seconds to explain what you believe, what would you say? What are the salient points? What would you consider important enough to include in that brief "pitch," and what would you hold back for a deeper conversation?

I think that might be a good starting point. Identify the important bits first and then expand upon them.


I feel like I understand myself and my own beliefs better for having done it, and because of that, I feel like I would be able to better explain them to someone new.

This illustrates my point. I've had some good conversations about spiritual matters with my wife but they've been a bit infrequent, what with the more mundane aspects of raising a family and running a house intruding most of the time. Perhaps by actually setting down my ideas on Pantheism I might come to understand my beliefs better and, as I progress through the exercise, myself too?

[spiral]

I would not disagree with that personally but I had an opportunity to explore a conversation on Pantheism with someone who knew little about it but was interested enough to listen and I did not, I feel, make the most of it.


Fair enough. Maybe you could try journalling? I sometimes find that writing things out helps me make sense of it.


But I'm actually really glad for having had to do that because now I feel like I understand myself and my own beliefs better for having done it

Interesting... maybe I ought to try this myself

[TygerTyger]

Maybe we could start a series of discussion threads based on one subject, life, death, the nature of existence, etc., and see if our ideas as Pantheists agree or whether someone can offer a very original insight into something?

I know in theory that that is what is supposed to happen but perhaps we need something to drive the discussion as, as a group at least, Pantheists don't seem very active.

[RavenStars]

Maybe we could start a series of discussion threads based on one subject, life, death, the nature of existence, etc., and see if our ideas as Pantheists agree or whether someone can offer a very original insight into something?

I know in theory that that is what is supposed to happen but perhaps we need something to drive the discussion as, as a group at least, Pantheists don't seem very active.

I agree. This might be very interesting to see the different faces of our beliefs. I know I could learn from this.

[spiral]

Yeah I think that's a good idea as well, I'd like to see the pantheism forum become more active :)

[TygerTyger]

Okay, I'll post a question today and ask for it to be answered from a pantheistic perspective. To begin with I think we should follow Cheddarsox's elevator rule and keep to the most important points and, if it works, branch out from there.

P.S. If anyone else has a burning question that they want to post in the Pantheism section please feel free, I don't want to be accused of hogging this, I just want to kickstart a discussion that might help me get my ideas in order!

P.P.S. If we come up with something generally considered worthwhile perhaps we could keep it as a sticky for future reference?

[Shawn Blackwolf]

I have a question...

How could Panthe - ism , not need the application of reason ?

As by the very definition of the word "ism" , you are dealing
with a "distinctive system"...( please read link )

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/-ism

Now if it were called Panthe - , some other suffix , then no ,
it might not necessarily need application of reason , as it
might not be entitled a "distinctive system"...( or doctrine , or belief )



However , the word is currently the word , and as such does
imply reason was utilized in the creation of a "system"...

Now , if Panthe - , is not necessarily a "system"* , then the
wrong suffix , might be currently in usage...:uhhuhuh:

( or doctrine , or belief ) *

Just something to consider , in your list of questions...:bigredgri

[RavenStars]

How could Panthe - ism , not need the application of reason ?

The awe and wonder I feel about All That Is does not need reason or a system. But that's just me.

[Shawn Blackwolf]

I would agree wholeheartedly with you , in terms of feeling , my
friend RavenStars...

It is the term , which may be incorrect...

Pantheist , is not Panthe - ism...and that was the OP question...

I would call your experience a Pantheist feeling , not Pantheism...


The awe and wonder I feel about All That Is does not need reason or a system. But that's just me.

[green aventurine]

During the holidays I had a conversation with my sister-in-law that touched on what we believe. She talked about energy and how she believes it can be manipulated, as in Reikii for example. Although I was interested I found her theories a bit disorganized, not particularly well thought out, and she seemed to lose the thread of what she was saying quite easily. I tried to explain to her my own Pantheistic beliefs and I discovered that actually my own thoughts are a bit disorganized too!

I know what I believe and why I believe what I do, but I’ve never tried to present these beliefs in a systematic or reasoned fashion. They work for me but when I try to explain them to others, they actually seem to be a bit confused.

Has anyone else made this discovery and if so have you done something to organize your thoughts?



This is a good post and thread, IMO, Tyger. I'm afraid I have also had made this discovery repeatedly lol

I don't know enough about pantheism to really comment on that first paragraph but, for me, knowing Reiki is more like knowing how to ride a bike or knowing what it feels like to taste strawberries rather than knowing that "2+2=4" whereas I get the impression knowing pantheism is the other way round, perhaps, or is that too quick?

I personally think philosophical discussion etc is something which doesn't get that far when done in real-time and face-to-face and is better suited in a written format like a forum post, perhaps, or journals where you have time to really sit and think about what you want to say simply because there are very difficult/complicated issues involved.

Also, I think what Xentor did was a very sound move. In my experience, when you write something, it forces you to be explicit and it's easier to see gaps or inconsistencies in your beliefs or even just areas which you have glossed over and don't really understand. Same as when you try to teach somebody who isn't familiar with whatever it is you're trying to tell them.

I look forward to reading the next article you post for discussion on here. I had a question about the Catholic Church thread/article but I need to go back and have a read of it again.

[~Nixie]

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