tobacoo/ alcohol/ drugs

[FlamedLilly]

Ok for those of you out there who believe in the harm none rule. Do you think this includes yourself, and what about ingesting things into your body that you know can/will/ do might bring you harm. Saw this discussion on another board and thought I would ask here as well

[Nissala]

That's a good question. imo, it does include oneself. one reason I want so desperately to stop smoking. "Harm none" has to include oneself. None = everyone, right?

[Phoenix Blue]

**Nods** I suppose. . . **shrugs** But there're people who honestly like smoking, too. It's a personal thing - and as long as I don't have to inhale it, I won't bug them.

[Kaylara]

About 90% of the pagans I've met smoke cigarettes.
I don't know if I can make a generalization based on that or not. But I smoke cigarettes and will drink occassionally.

Kaylara

[Phoenix Blue]

**Nods** Actually, that's one reason I'm solitary. :) I'm sensitive to smoke; cigarettes smell like arse, and I tend to avoid people who smoke because of that.

[Gwion]

I have rarely met Pagans or Witches who smoke; the ones who did were openly apologetic and secretive about it.

I think the idea is that if you consider your body to be the temple of the God/dess, it's in bad taste to destroy it.

Sugar might be tossed in as a self-destructive drug; obesity is just as unhealthy (not to mention the blight factor) and when combined with cigarettes...

I figure that smokers hang out with smokers because that's the only place they are accepted. Non-smokers don't allow them to smoke. I was only ever in one coven that had a smoker, and everyone else worked with her in a loving and supporting way to break the addiction, just as we supported another's fight to lose weight. My experience is that the Pagan's I have met have been among the most physically fit and "at home" in their physical bodies. We are nature-based religions. Well, it doesn't get any closer to nature than your own body, and Pagans are naturally more aware of the delicate balance of energy in their physical vessels. Many of them are drawn to hiking and wilderness pursuits, rock climbing, surfing; some are nurses or homeopathic healers; martial artists; others in show business, dancers, singers, performers of all kinds keep their bodies finely tuned because that is their instrument. There's also stage vanity: Cigarettes age the face and neck prematurely. Radial sucking lines develop around the mouth. The skin, eyes, fingertips and teeth yellow. And of course, it stinks like death.

Most Pagans I know feel that suicide is wrong. Killing yourself with a drug addiction is suicide. There are more methods and more help available to quit now than ever before. We see the body count continue...440,000 deaths a year in the US alone from tobacco. (Chewing is 5 times as deadly.) I've got pictures of former tobacco chewers that would make Stephen King ill.

People tend to group themselves according to their chemistry: drinkers drink together, smokers are all out behind the shed or in the bathroom, stoners have their own social etiquette; all of these are very social drugs and the people on them seem to seek out others with the same psychic "vibe."

The most alcohol I ever imbibed was at a Samhain ritual in San Diego County. There were about 100 very eclectic pagans, two labyrinths, and a Gypsy theme. One Asatru man had brought a huge amount of mead that he had brewed, and was carrying some around in a 5 gallon bucket. He said to drink as much as I wanted. Well, no one ever offered me as much mead as I wanted, so I took a draught that would do Thor proud. Everyone should do this at least once. Later that night I read Tarot cards in the Gypsy wagon that Garbo used in "Golden Earrings."

[Pan]

I agree. Harm none includes yourself, imo. I don't smoke and don't drink.. but the occasional glass of wine is proven to be good for you. It's just the excess that's bad, I think.

But a lot of "Wiccans" around me smoke.. and still claim to follow the harm none rule.. and they also perform bindings with the intent to harm the other person.

*shrug*

Just my opinion. :)

[shnen]

Actually... what about the studies that have shown that certain types of alcohol have benefits? ie, red wine, beer, etc. Just don't overdo it. Besides... some herbs can be way more harmful then smoking... ;)

On the flip side... I believe your body is the vehicle for your soul to travel from lifetime to lifetime... Yes, I do drink and smoke socially, amongst other things. It is not an addiction, but sometimes its good to let loose. I eat well, am in shape, and am healthy...

so should we include greasy fatty foods in this too, cuz we know thats harming your body more then a few glasses of wine! :eek:

[FlamedLilly]

Wow!! I'm impressed I wasn't expecting this kind of response. I think that it's time that I posted my own thoughts on the subject. I'm still in question about the harm none rule. Because of the whole there's a balance that must be there, and all also about the saying I've come across that a witch who can't hex can't heal.

Well anyway I still think you need to be in your best shape mentally and physically to get to where you need to go in any aspect of this life or lives.

[Witchy Cowgirl]

Just wondering Lilly, what kind of responsed were you expecting?
:)
I think harm none includes yourself.
I don't drink (anymore except on the very rare occasion and then never to excess)
I don't smoke.
I USED to dip but thankfully quite that several years ago.
I also think that yes, you have to include the type of foods you eat. I'm careful to watch what I eat. Not to say that I don't eat junk cause I do. Just not much....or at least not as much as I used to.
I excerise and feel that I do my temple proud and that my Higher Power is pleased with how I treat myself.

[Armitage]

If harm none includes yourself, you're screwed. Breathing helps kill you, eventually. Food hurts you. The act of living hurts your body.
I don't follow the Rede per se, though I do think it is something a lot of people could at least try and live by. I used to smoke, quit last year. I drink, but not massive amounts and not specifically to get drunk. I've done some drugs, found pot retarded and the several pills I tried useless. I'm not touching anything harder, I've seen what it does to friends. Junk food, well, I like my junk food but I like healthy food as well. I try to exercise daily, though I don't berate myself if I forget, because if I'm busy enough to forget, that makes up for it. Common sense, moderation and intelligence in making choices are key in keeping yourself healthy *and* enjoying yourself at the same time. You'll hurt yourself mentally if you restrict yourself too much.

[Gwion]

Pagans and Witches are a very sexually active and lusty bunch, seeing as we see sexuality as sacred, and the better shape you're in, the better that goes too.

[Phoenix Blue]

Quoth Armitage:
If harm none includes yourself, you're screwed. Breathing helps kill you, eventually. Food hurts you. The act of living hurts your body.
If you follow "Harm None," you're not following the Rede. The Rede is eight words, not two.

"An it harm none, do what ye will." In essence, do freely anything that harms no one; when your actions may cause harm, understand and accept the consequences for your actions, before you act.

[flar7]

hmmmm. smoke. alcohol. drugs. maybe.maybe.maybe.

gonna have to agree with the Greeks on this one.....
"All things in moderation." Many native paths use tobacco on
a regular basis, and yes, they do inhale. Thats how the spirit
of the smoke enters you.

but all things in excess were considered bad or evil by the Greeks.

[MammaStar]

Pagans and Witches are a very sexually active and lusty bunch, seeing as we see sexuality as sacred, and the better shape you're in, the better that goes too.

HECK YEAH BABY!!!!!!!! :lol:

I don't smoke ciggarettes...anymore (back in my younger days) and I have been known to smoke the funny stuff and eat a few fungus. I don't do that stuff anymore either.

But I still do have a beer or two (or 3 or 4 :lol: ) on occassion.

[Tiana_Ecarias]

Originally posted by Phoenix_Blue
If you follow "Harm None," you're not following the Rede. The Rede is eight words, not two.

"An it harm none, do what ye will." In essence, do freely anything that harms no one; when your actions may cause harm, understand and accept the consequences for your actions, before you act.


Agreed, I know a lot of people hwho smoke, most of them close friends, and I am allergic to cigarette smoke as well. Thwey often are polite and don't smoke around me, or my son, which I duly appreciate.

I used to drink, very heavily, to the points of where I'd pass out. At the time I didn't give a rat's behind about if it hurt me or not, I already was hurting.

Anyways, I quit, and I look at things like this: I'd never do ANYTHING to another living being, wether it be animal or plant(humans and mortals are included in the animals), that I would not do to myself.

But, on the other hand, I will not force anyone to stop hurting themselves. I.E. my friends who smoke, I tell tehm they should quit and the reasons, and offer help to help them quit, but they tell me no thanks, but thanks for the offer.

You can't make ANYONE change, they have to make the choice to in the first place.

Okies, there is my 2 cents worht of thoughts, never knew 2 cents could buy so much, huh? ;)

Tiana_Ecarias

[st0rm]

I dont drink(well sometimes a pint of vodka might slip down), I dont smoke (tobacco) but i smoke herbs, I dont consume much sugar/caffine. Im not an addict to anything(except maybe MW :D )

[Witchy Cowgirl]

Originally posted by Armitage
If harm none includes yourself, you're screwed. Breathing helps kill you, eventually. Food hurts you. The act of living hurts your body.....

....Common sense, moderation and intelligence in making choices are key in keeping yourself healthy *and* enjoying yourself at the same time. You'll hurt yourself mentally if you restrict yourself too much.

I don't think she's talking about things you can't control.
I thinkg she's talking about doing the best you can to take care of yourself and not doing anything on purpose to harm yourself.

I agree with what you say about common sense, moderation and intelligence....those are good things to go by. You have to take care of your emotionaly self to stay healthy and you should allow yourself to unwind.


Flar, you and the Greeks are right....all things in moderation!
When I was answering previously I was thinking about the Native people using tobacco.
It not using any of these things that cause a problem.
It's the overuse.
And the addication.

[Kaylara]

Originally posted by Phoenix_Blue
If you follow "Harm None," you're not following the Rede. The Rede is eight words, not two.

"An it harm none, do what ye will." In essence, do freely anything that harms no one; when your actions may cause harm, understand and accept the consequences for your actions, before you act.

I agree totally... But actually, the Rede is much much longer. And not all pagans/wiccans/etc follow the Rede. It is not something that one has to follow to be pagan, and I don't believe that it was meant to become what it has. You can't live with out doing harm to another creature. You have to figure out for yourself how far it goes, if you follow the Rede.

I am a smoker. I drink occassionally, don't do drugs, try to eat right etc. I do how ever know quite a few pagans who drink all the time, do drugs, etc... I've also met a lot of pagans so far, and approx. 90% of them smoke. I don't see us hiding it, or being embarrassed that we smoke. I don't go home and smoke under my blanket while hiding in a closet. I also don't smoke around non-smokers who ask me not to smoke... But if you're obnoxious about it, you'd believe I was a chain smoker.

[Armitage]

If you follow "Harm None," you're not following the Rede. The Rede is eight words, not two.

"An it harm none, do what ye will." In essence, do freely anything that harms no one; when your actions may cause harm, understand and accept the consequences for your actions, before you act.

I shortened to save space, I had to get to bed, and figured everyone would get what I meant. I guess not...

[Kaylara]

I got what you said.

:)

[FlamedLilly]

Cowgirl,

I really don't know what I was expecting maybe something a little less explosive. Maybe just a couple posts here everynow and then, but not 5-7 everytime I come back and review it :)

I think a lot of good points have come from this, it's certainly made me think about some things I Haven't thought about before.

[Phoenix Blue]

I got what you said, too, Armitage. . . :) but I think it's a good thing to remember that the Rede does in fact mean more than "harm none." New folks may see "Harm none" and think that's all there is to it, when in fact it isn't.

[Amber Ravenstar]

>>I've also met a lot of pagans so far, and approx. 90% of them smoke.<<

Hmm, I've met a great number of Pagans over the past dozen years. I think I could count on only two hands the ones who smoked. And of those, close to half of them have quit over the years.

There are so many reasons NOT to smoke. The obvious ones are emphysema, cancers of the lung, throat and mouth, and arterioscelerosis. Then there is the smell, which is offensive to non-smokers, as well as the other social reasons to quit.

Comparatively, the reasons to keep smoking are few. Addiction? Use the patch or the pill. They work, and they break the addiction slowly enough that you're not even aware it happens. Habit? Habits can be broken. If I can quit biting my nails, you can quit smoking. Stress Relief? Try meditation or exercise. Your stress will be less, and you'll be doing something that is healthy besides. Afraid you'll gain weight? Again, exercise.

[flar7]

lets not start a "quit smoking" thread. Cause it is not that easy.
pills, patches, dont work for some. Nicotine is a very powerful drug
and some are just more addicted to it than others.



"an it harm none?" sounds nice. not my thing though.

[Kaylara]

Me either.

[Gwion]

I guess it's one thing when you're working with people who are trying to quit; it's just hard to deal with those who are in such an advanced state of denial that they usually say that they don't WANT to quit and they don't WANT to know what their physical condition is. Ask someone who has been smoking for 20 years when the last time they had a chest x-ray was. Usually, they laugh, at first. Stand a twin who has smoked for 20 years next to her non-smoking twin, one will look years older than the other.

Kaylara, I think your 90% is a bit high. The national statistic in the US is around 24% of the population being smokers. Since you smoke, no doubt you hang around other smokers anyway, so no wonder most of the pagans you meet smoke. My circles smell like lotus and Nag Champa incense. Many of the Pagans I run with practice Pranayama breathing exercises, and their spiritual practice is directly linked to their breathing.

I have to go with the idea that "An it harm none" does include yourself.

For those who spout gems like "Anything is bad for you, walking is bad for you..." Pfft. Former California Governor Pete Wilson once defended tobacco by saying, "Lots of things are dangerous, even milk can be bad for you." Riiiiiiiiiiiight.

What never ceases to amaze me is the shrill, frantic lengths and rhetorical hoops that smokers will plunge through to justify and defend tobacco. Sure, an Iron Lung was good enough for Grandma.

[flar7]

actually, milk that you buy in the store is very harmful to children.
The growth hormones present are causing many things to
happen to children at younger and younger ages....

but, that is another story.........

I dont know many pagans......but all I know smoke. I dont, and
Freyja is trying to quit(for me:) ) but the rest light up.

[Kaylara]

What amazes me is how superior most non-smokers try to make themselves out to be around smokers. Most of the pagans I've met, are not intimate friends, and no matter what you think, smoking in my book is not a reason to have or not to have someone as a friend. My non-smoker friends have the courtesy not to shove their anti smoking rhetoric down my throat, and I have the courtesy to not smoke around them.

I base my 90% on my experience. Out of the pagans that I've met, approx. 90% of them smoke. I don't meet these people because I'm a smoker or a non-smoker... I meet them in stores, at the beach, while getting my coffee, etc, etc, etc... My smoking has nothing to do with meeting them, and I only find out later that these people smoke.

And Milk can be bad for you. What other grown mammal drinks the milk from a different species? Cow milk is for cows, not people. The best milk for people would be breast milk, but I don't think that you'll see people lining up to drink that because it's "gross". They give the cows hormones, and feed them crap, and you don't think that it will go into the milk???


I don't push smoking on anyone else. What I do with my body is my business. (And I don't follow the "Rede" as you see it.)

[Danustouch]

My experience is that the Pagan's I have met have been among the most physically fit and "at home" in their physical bodies. We are nature-based religions. Well, it doesn't get any closer to nature than your own body, and Pagans are naturally more aware of the delicate balance of energy in their physical vessels.

Hah....actually, my friend and I have commented several times, that actually, there seems a great percentage of overweight people withing Wicca, and Paganism. I myself, am overweight, and know MANY other overweight Pagans. Actually, when I look back at the Circle I was involved in at one point, I'd say it was pretty much, half and half, between overweight folks, and physically fit folks. I can only recall about three members who were of "Perfect Body Weight" for their build. Most of us, were at LEAST carrying around five-ten extra pounds.

Being at home in ones body, doesn't necessarily mean being a perfect body weight for your build. It means realizing that no matter what dress/suit size you are, you are a thing of beauty. That The God, or Goddess dwells within your body.

These attitudes of "If you smoke, you are less of a Pagan.." or "If you are overweight, you are less of a Pagan" are extremely harmful to people. Smoking, or Being overweight, is not an indication of ones spiritual developement. At least, not anymore than anything else in life. Spirituality isn't a list of do's, and don'ts. It's about an attitude of striving toward being the best person you can be. For some, that means focusing far more on their inner selves, than their outerselves. Suppose a persons BIGGEST problem in life, is overcoming negativity, or Anger. But..they smoke, or are overweight. Personally, I'd say overcoming the negativity and anger would be far more important for them to concentrate on overcoming, at that point, than their weight problem, or smoking addiction.

Some people, really are completely at home with their weight. Look at art, through history. The Ideal of physical beauty wasn't always a Size 5. Robust Women were considered the epitomy of beauty. There is a term common in Pagan Circles..."Earth Mother Type". There is a reason for that. Many of us do NOT picture the Goddess as a perfectly trim figure. We picture her as Cushy, Comfy, Round like the Earth, full-figured, etc. And people CAN be healthy, and still be of a Robust Figure. I agree that being overweight CAN complicate ones health, but it depends on the degree of obesity, and on what other lifestyle factors are included. I know one girl who LOOKS very large, but this is because she is built like a viking! She is very tall, Full Figured as far as theighs, belly, bosom, and behind, are concerned, And her Calves are HUGE. She is of strong Nordic Stock, and this is how her entire family is built. The girl hasn't had so much as a cold in the last three years. She hikes, alot. She is very physically active. She is beautiful, and confident. AND highly spiritual. She is large boned, and tends to have a chemistry which makes it impossible to trim down to 0 bodyfat. She carry's around extra pounds, yes. But...does it slow her down, or put her in ill health? No. It's her chemistry. It's hereditary. Her diet is healthy, her excercise regime healthy...but..that's just how she is made.

The attitude of "You must be physically fit, in order to be spiritually sound", is so immensely destructive. The whole Image of Physically Fit is so highly subjective to media, and society. If Physically Fit in half of society's mind, is "Kate Moss", Boy..then aren't we in for trouble? Because based on a persons hereditary genetics, in order to look like Kate Moss, MANY of us would have to become anorexic, or bulemic.

My point is, a woman or mans weight, isn't always an indication of their spiritual health. For instance, if a person is physically handicapped, and cannot excercise, are wheelchair bound, or whatever, would you be willing to assert the claim that they are somehow less spiritually developed?

Or ..suppose that a persons diet is very healthy, and that they excercise regularly, but...they have a thyroid problem, and have trouble burning calories, anyway...are they less spiritually develloped? Yeah..they can take thyroid medications. But suppose the thyroid medications have side effects that the person is either incapable, or unwilling to deal with. Thus, they've resigned themselves to their bodyweight. They're less spiritually develloped?

To me, Gwion, these statements are extremely hurtful. Not only that, but they are incredibly biased. And the only "Statistics" you are able to provide, anyway, are those based on the specific pagans YOU know.

I'd like to make an informal poll about this, where people wouldn't have to comment, just vote. See how many of us are what society deems "Physically Fit".

[shnen]

I take the rede into consideration as a guideline for living... not a strict policy... we could get super technical here and say when we use herbs during ritual, since they have energy in them, they are a lifeform that to use them is harming them...

that being said I think it is to be used with Common sense... and as uncommon as it is, a responsable pagan will find it :)

and eating at Mcdonalds is jsut as bad for you as a shot of vodka... the vodka might even be healthier!

[Psyche Ague]

I don't follow the Rede anymore, but when I did I firmly believed that "harm none" DEFINITELY meant oneself, also. I still believe that's what the Rede meant.

I believe more along the lines of Karma now. Whatever you do affects everything else now and forever. Yourself included. I do what I do because it's right for me.

I don't smoke cigarettes, but I engage in other risky behaviors that are self-harming in the long run (smoking some "funny stuff," eating certain fungi, drinking alcohol). However, I do things ALWAYS in moderation. What I choose to do with my body is my choice, always. No one should be able to tell me what I can and cannot do to it. As long as I'm not harming anyone else, what I do is my decision.

[Gwion]

that if the body is in good shape, the mind will follow suit. When the body is healthy and relaxed, the mind will follow. Anyone who has practiced Hatha Yoga knows that.

As for aesthetics, I a drawn more to a Mae West/Sophia Loren type of woman, not to starving runway models. Anorexia is as much a form of self-mutilation as morbid obesity. Someone who looks like a Venus of Willendorf cannot possibly be healthy. Mae looked pretty healthy to me.

Life is a struggle, and you can either make an effort to be the best you can, or you give in to entropy. As far as taking care of your body, you get out of it exactly the effort you put into it, barring any kind of physical or medical condition. Those religions that vilify the flesh or think it sinful, I have found, tend to attract people who are very out of shape. We are not told that we were born with "original sin," but with "original grace." We know that our bodies are not sinful, but sacred. Pagans are a lot happier, healthier, sensuous bunch, because they enjoy their bodies they way you would enjoy a high-performance car. There is an incredible exhiliration to be running at your top speed, swimming your fastest, lifting the heaviest weight. (Even Making Love Wildly)Endorphins, yes, but also a sense of pride and achievement. Atheletes realize their divinity in a very visceral, physical way. They also tend to fare better at skyclad Beltane rituals:)

Trying to "normalize" smoking by passing it off as harmless, "rebellious," or socially cool does a great disservice to children and young people who might consider starting. Smoking is nothing to be proud of.

Just because some people take care of their bodies doesn't mean that they are arrogant and superior, no matter what others may snarl as they walk past the gym with a cigarette.

>>My experience is that the Pagan's I have met have been among the most physically fit and "at home" in their physical bodies. We are nature-based religions. Well, it doesn't get any closer to nature than your own body, and Pagans are naturally more aware of the delicate balance of energy in their physical vessels.<<

>Gwion, these statements are extremely hurtful.<

I really don't see how.

[flar7]

actually others believe, and I agree, that if the mind is fit...the body
will follow suit. The mind will tell your body what to do, get rid
of the cancer, fight the infection, etc. go work out and I will reward you....
most eastern philosophies teach this, mind first, body second...

Jewish, Muslim, and Christian religions are very nature based. You
just have to look and understand. As for Pagans being healthier?
nope, dont see it. ALL people run the gamut.... pagan smokers
christian smokers, pagan health nuts, christian health nuts.


Now, lets calm down about the anti smoking stuff, people know
its bad for them, cost more than some narcotics, and is offensive
to non smokers. But it is their right to do so as long as it doesnt
interfere with others rights. Alcohol kills more people than cigerettes,
and the ones mostly killed by alcohol are the victims/non drinker,
of those who did the drinking.
Drugs? there are good drugs, and bad drugs, but all drugs should
be used, if at all, in moderation(sheesh I am saying that word a lot.:) )

[Phoenix Blue]

**Smiles** I think it goes both ways. Indeed, medical studies have linked exercise to overall better mental health, including lower rates of depressed feelings among people who suffer from depression. **Smiles** In other words, getting up and doing something is good for those of us who otherwise get to feeling down in the dumps.