Halloween image of a 'witch' - just a possibility

[Aine of the Fae]

I was talking to a good friend the other day and she had reeceived an email that had a valid explanation for the 'old green hag' image of a witch that we see so often this time of year.

Think back to the Witch trials. Most of the people accused were not witches, but were framed, often by neighbors who hoped to benefit in some way. Most of those who were accused were women. They were locked away without sunlight and with little food or water. They were tortured, their hands and feet broken and battered. They were often held for many months while the 'courts' tried to 'extract' a confession from them. When a person who had been subjected to such treatment was finally paraded through the towns to their execution, imagine how they looked.

Lack of nutrition would have made their hair thin and unkempt. The torture would have bent and twisted their hands and given a hunch to their backs. Lack of sunlight may have caused jaundice, a yellowing of the skin and eyes. A woman or man who had suffered in such unimaginable ways would have looked a truly dreadful sight.

Now, think of how time has a way of exaggerating stories. That green skinned hag that we see today may be an exaggerated image of women tortured and beaten because they were accused of witchcraft. We should honor this image and remember the people, men and women, who were tortured because of what were so many times false accusations.

Aoibheann Brogan

[Pan]

It's a thought! And one I've never had before, to be honest!

Brain food.. mmmm.. :D

[Flar's Freyja]

Thank you so much for posting this. We get caught up in our present-day discrimination and often the horrors of the burning times are forgotten about. I don't remember very much about it even being presented to me in elementary or high school. I learned the most when I took a few Women's Studies courses in college and the professor devoted an entire unit to it.

What an interesting thought that is, and add to this that a good deal of the torture was sexual; i.e., the iron maiden that crushed and tore women's breasts off. The women were frequently stripped naked. If anyone could survive those kinds of torture they would indeed appear to be maimed and hideous. Many of the women were also tortured and put to death so that their property could be claimed or stolen.

Again, thank you for remembering those who have walked the path before us.

Editing to add: :wave: Merry Meet and Welcome! if I haven't said so already.

[Mnemosyne]

Thank you so much for posting this information. I was wondering why the stereotypical Halloween witch is thought of as ugly and green. Today at work, I was helping my students make a Halloween poster. On the poster, the students painted a picture of witch. One student colored the witch's face green. I thought to myself "how typical. I wonder why." Thanks for telling me why. Now if only the stereotypical Halloween witch was pretty!

[Witchy Cowgirl]

Thanks for sharing this. I have never taken offense to the projected image of the witch. I've usually found it entertaining. I like the idea of using this image to honor those who walked the path before us and to honor those who cleared the path for us.

[SerenityMoon]

very interseting and intriguing thought...
that iron maiden thing sounds hideous *shudder*

[Flar's Freyja]

And if you think the burning times are over, read this:

http://www.illusions.com/burning/burnwit5.htm#21

The site has actual names of women killed because they were believed to be witches as recently as November 2001.

The rest of the site has tons of historical information and is not for the faint of heart.

[Gwion]

I never believed the green hag witch thing, because my first impression of a witch was Glinda.

[Aine of the Fae]

Thank you for the link on the modern day witch hunt/executions.

Aoibheann Brogan

[Flar's Freyja]

Originally posted by Gwion
I never believed the green hag witch thing, because my first impression of a witch was Glinda.

:lol: Wow, and you didn't notice that other lady in the movie? Actually, she reminds me too much of some neighbors that I've had over the years!

This is one of my many images of a witch:

[MammaStar]

Glinda and the Wicked Witch of the East were my first impressions. Then my Mom showed me a picture of Stevie Nicks and said "She's a Witch"

This is sort of related. Something my kid said today. I was at the bus stop with him this morning and the kids were talking about what they were dressing up as. The kids were talking and they always talk like the adults aren't there, because J asked J-man if "your mom is dressing up". Before I could say no, J-man answered for me. Nope, she's not. Then J-man says "She could be a witch." and gave me a that SH**-Eating grin. It was funny.

Okay...maybe to me at 7:30 a.m....but really. It was funny. HONEST!!! :lol:

[Flar's Freyja]

I get it, too. That IS funny! I've seen a few comments about Stevie in the last day or so, and I remember that in the late seventies when it was said she was a witch, she vehemently denied it. I've never seen anything where she's actually come forward, have you? Or are we all still assuming (and believing lol) based on our knowledge of her?

[Aine of the Fae]

Since Samhain is Thursday lets give this a

**bump**

:)

[MammaStar]

Originally posted by Freyja
I get it, too. That IS funny! I've seen a few comments about Stevie in the last day or so, and I remember that in the late seventies when it was said she was a witch, she vehemently denied it. I've never seen anything where she's actually come forward, have you? Or are we all still assuming (and believing lol) based on our knowledge of her?


I'm still holding on to the belief. :lol:

[Flar's Freyja]

Me too! I might actually try and do some research now, I've piqued my own interest! A few years ago, I called a magazine on stating that she'd never been married because that is not true. She was married very briefly to her best friend's widower but it didn't work out.

Editing to add: I can't seem to find anything else on the physical stereotypes, but I did run across this neat link:

http://www.aren.org/media.html

[Flar's Freyja]

Bumping since it will soon be that time again.

[Devin]

That is a good explanation!

Leslie

[Flaire-FireStar]

Thanks for the bump, sis. :heartthro (I missed this one the first time around)

[Chibi-Fallon]

Makes sense to me. And it's not like the people in the "witch's are evil" camp would really *want* to make them look good to begin with.

[RhiannynWildseed]

Hmmm....definitely something to think about. And think of that sickly shade of green that bruises turn after a couple days. If they were beaten, that would definitely explain a lot.

Rhiannyn

[Faery-Wings]

Bump

[Ben Trismegistus]

An interesting theory, but as I posted on the other thread, this perception of witches dates from far earlier, from Roman times:

The ancient Roman poet Horace was among the earliest to portray witches as ugly old hags in contrast to the earlier image of the witch as a beautiful seductress reflected in the writings of Hesiod and Homer. The Romans valued youth to excess, and the association of old age with witches was designed to rob them of power and vitality in the public mind. Horace writes in his Epodes that witches worship Proserpina and Diana. Both deities were viewed in a negative light by the followers of the Roman State religion who favored the so-called "high gods." Diana and Proserpina were the deities of rural pagans and magicians, both classes that were looked down upon by the sophisticated city dwellers.

Ovid wrote that a belief in witches (striges) was a superstitious peasant belief having nothing to do with State religion. Therefore the witch was a popular figure to ridicule and malign. Horace also makes the connection of the moon with the practice of Witchcraft. Ancient Greek/Roman literature depicts the Witch involved in human and animal sacrifice, practices that were common in the vast majority of ancient cultures including archaic Aegean/Mediterranean and Celtic cultures.

Raven Grimassi, from the 9/01 edition of "Echoed Voices" (http://www.echoedvoices.org/Sep2001/SeptHowWitch.html)

[Rabiddove]

exaggeration is the basis of all fairytales.. so green witches are better suited to be talked about than bruised women. makes sense... and makes my skin crawl... they never mention that the green is the "after". But then again... there are "Beautiful" witches...


It probably just depends on the culture.... and whoever it is thats editing what gets out to the general public... I frimly belive that most of what people belive is shaped by those in power in attempt to aresst more control...

[Ben Gruagach]

While the idea that green, rather unattractive older women originating with the "burning times" makes sense, I'm not convinced that's really where it started.

As Ben T. mentioned, the image of a witch as an old woman, or an old woman with green skin, appears to go back farther than the "burning times."

Think of it this way... people today live much longer lifespans, and in much better physical condition, than they did even a couple of generations ago. (Thank the wonders of modern science for that...) Older women were prone to things like osteoporosis, which causes the bones to become brittle and often produces a very hunched posture. Men also have always had shorter lifespans than women, so in a male-dominated culture it's not surprising that if a wife outlives her husband, suspicious neighbors might think she had a hand in doing him in. And as she got older, more feeble, and certainly didn't have access to modern cosmetics, of course she'd come to look more and more like the traditional crone.

Within Wicca we tend to talk a lot about the threefold goddess: maiden, mother, crone. The crone is the "wise old woman," sometimes the kindly grandmother but also sometimes a dangerous woman to be reckoned with. Goddesses of the underworld aren't always depicted as sweetness-and-light, so it's not surprising that goddesses who have a crone aspect, or who are known as goddesses of magick and the night, might also have these darker or less "pretty" sides to them too.

The green tint to the skin... the first thing that I think of when that is brought up is, "well, what do you expect from people who think witches are monsters?" Goblins, elves, things that go bump in the night are often depicted as being green to make them seem that much more supernatural. No need for torture or bruising is required to account for how a supernatural creature is depicted in the popular mind.

The image of the witch goes way back through many many cultures, with bits and pieces of modern witch lore drawn from all sorts of sources in the past. There's no need to think that the modern stereotype of the witch was manufactured exclusively in the "burning times."

[Edited to add the last sentence, since I hit "post" too quickly!]

[Ben Trismegistus]

The green tint to the skin... the first thing that I think of when that is brought up is, "well, what do you expect from people who think witches are monsters?" Goblins, elves, things that go bump in the night are often depicted as being green to make them seem that much more supernatural. No need for torture or bruising is required to account for how a supernatural creature is depicted in the popular mind.
Although the image of the old hag has been around for millennia, I wonder if the green skin thing was simply an invention of L. Frank Baum for the Wizard of Oz. Have you seen any references to witches with green skin from before then?

[twisted_silhouette]

I never believed the green hag witch thing, because my first impression of a witch was Glinda.

Same here. I always thought of a witch not being evil and cruel, but sweet and loving. The word ''witch'' has to much of a brutal and forged meaning to some. If you are willing to chandge your opinion (if you think us brutal and cruel), then I would wish for everyone to share your thoughts.

Be Open Minded.

Twisted Silhouette

[Ben Gruagach]

Although the image of the old hag has been around for millennia, I wonder if the green skin thing was simply an invention of L. Frank Baum for the Wizard of Oz. Have you seen any references to witches with green skin from before then?

I'm not sure... I'd have to get to a good library and start digging! Most of the older depictions of witches that I've seen (like the various woodcuts that appear in some books on witchcraft) are not in colour so it's hard to tell.

It might also turn up in a story prior to "Wizard of Oz" but as I said that would take a bit of research that I just haven't done yet. Perhaps some day I might.

[Xeen]

I think about how stereotype start quite a bit, but I tend to not try to set my beliefs in stone. You will have one source saying "This is the answer!" then another source saying "No, THIS is the answer!".

Er... I try not to think too much.

Anyhow. I didn't know that the 'witches' were abused and such. Goes to show how much I know. They didn't talk much about that kinda stuff when I was in school. We read that book... that famous play... damnit what's it called... You know what I'm talking about. Who the hell wrote that? That one guy. Clark? Cook? Anyway. We read that book and that's the only time the Burning Times was ever even touched upon in my 12 years of schooling.

I'd research stuff like that myself, 'cause I love knowledge and such, but you just can't trust anything you see, read or hear.

[Ben Gruagach]

For those who are interested in learning a bit more about what accused witches went through (whether they were really witches or not) check out the following:

http://www.nationalgeographic.com/features/97/salem/ an interactive site that explains the Salem witch trials using historical evidence.

http://www.malleusmaleficarum.org/ a site about the infamous Malleus Maleficarum, the "Hammer of Witches" which was used as a manual for identifying and prosecuting suspected witches in Europe.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/pag/kjd/index.htm an online version of England's King James the first's writings on witchcraft (from the 1590s.)

http://www.sacred-texts.com/pag/twp/index.htm some historical articles about the witch hunts.

I think it's important to be at least somewhat aware of what happened during horrible times in human history so that we know the depths people can sink, and hopefully learn how to recognize the warning signs and avoid similar holocausts. It's also why people should know at least the basics about WWII as well. If we don't forget, then we are at least a bit better prepared to stop it when it starts again.

[Pesha]

I can see your point, but...I have a problem with the cartoon images that are on tv and all around at Halloween. I honour the ones who died as a result of the witch hunts and always at Samhain say a prayer and say"Never again the Burning Times".

BB
DS.