Reasons to be Vegetarian

[Amemphis]

Number one: Harm none.
Check out this site and see if you can ever touch a berger again.
http://goveg.com/vegkit/meetmeat.html

[FlamedLilly]

OK I have to say this. I've been raised around rancher's and the like. I have seen most of these supposed places first hand. NO rancher that I know would treat their animals this way. It's their livilihood and dead sick animals means that they loose money. I also know that some of the things That PETA claims is false. I went to college and study veterinary technologies, which is fancy for learning to be a veterinary nurse.

Further more I have also made it a goal to educate people about PETA. Have you ever done research on this organization? I did and they do more harm then good. Anything that PETA publishes should be looked at with a very objective eye. They don't do their research completely and often jump into things that are way over their heads. If you'd like examples I can give you examples of things that they've done. Be very wary of this organization. ALWAYS do your own research when it comes to animals and the supposed "treatment" that they are faced with.

[)O( ~ Khara~ )O(]

My first question is where does that PETA person think the leather for their NIKE cross-trainer shoes and Tommy Hilfiger belt came from??? My second is as Darwin's survival of the fittest is a law of science does anyone think COWS should rule???

I am a carnivore. I grew up on a farm and learned VERY EARLY do not form attachements for ANY baby animal, as they have their place in the circle of life.

I have seen alomost every type of domestic "food" animal slaughtered. Yes it is gross and disgusting, but HEY I LIKE bacon, I LOVE a good steak, and fried chicken LOOK OUT!!!!

I resect those who choose to be vegetarians except when they have on leather shoes, belt, jacket or purse, etc...... If you choose to "Talk the Talk, then Walk the Walk"

I chose my Path many years ago, and still am walking true.

How many "PETA" members can say the same????

Sorry my rant is finished!!!

[Phoenix Blue]

PETA's tactics and mindset speak for themselves:

http://www.consumerfreedom.com/images/ads/peta_fire.jpg

'Sides, you can't expect a bird of prey to subsist on a vegetarian diet, can you? :)

[SerenityMoon]

i agree with flamelily. often stories like this reflect a very small part of these industries. I can certainly eat another burger, because these animals DO have their place in life, IMO, in the "circle of life" so to speak. and not nearly enough ranchers treat their animals that badly for me to want to swaer off meat forever.

[flar7]

I would have more respect for the article if it stuck to facts and
less drama. I have worked in a chicken house, it sucks, and I
couldnt eat chicken for 2 years after. But they dont razor off the
beaks, they get to keep their peckers. Lame cows and injuries?
Happens, but very low percentage. I agree its cruel, but I aint
giving up meat, its too important to a healthy diet.(in moderation)

Same for fish. Pork? well, you could live without it, but it does
nutritionally support certain people with nutrition problems. Like
me.

most carnivores arent gonna give up their meat, or they wouldnt
be true carnivores..... You was made to eat meat. You dont have
to, and you can find substitutes, but thats an individual choice.

Many an argument has been waged over this one, and quite a few
here on MW!

[Gwion]

I haven't touched beef or pork in 15 years.

[Radocs]

Originally posted by Amemphis
Number one: Harm none.
Check out this site and see if you can ever touch a berger again.
http://goveg.com/vegkit/meetmeat.html

Thanks, but I'll stick to eating meat.

[Sequoia]

Y'know. . . I feel bad for those individual animals, and all. . . I really do. And anybody who's ever tried to convince me to eat something knows that if it is obvious the thing used to be alive, I can't eat it *nudges Yvonne with the crabs she got that one day*. And the idea that these animals live short, cruel lives. . . well yeah, that ought to give me bad dreams.

Thing is, folks, it's been happening since humanity began. Take a look in my mouth. Or yours. There are teeth that are sharp, for meat. . . and there are teeth that are flat, for veggies. We are meant to eat both. Sure, you can get the protines you need from other things. . . but dear 'ol mother nature intended for me to eat meat, and I choose to do so. I prefer fish and poultry. But I noticed something - when my body needs protine, I do not crave beans. I do not crave tofu. (well, it hasn't happened yet) Do you know what I crave? Meat. A good steak. Sometimes I even crave ham or bacon. I'm not normally a huge meat-eater. But if I need that charred animal flesh, get the hél outta my way!

Yes, before you make the point, I realize the human body is constructed to do several things I really don't need to to survive. That's okay. Sometimes I do those just for the heck of it, too!

Me becoming a vegitarian or *pales* a vegan (dammit no more bovine dairy products!) will make me grouchy, depressed, bittery, and a multitude of other things. How do I know?

I have tried changing my diet. I have tried those nasty all-protine diets. Made me sicker than a dog. I have tried eating nearly exclusively plant-made stuffs. Similar result. I tried simply eating what my body said it needed. Voila, I feel good. I'm glad you can exist off of grubs and beans and other such things, all the more power to ya. But I've found that for me to stay healthy, I must consume at least a small quantity of meat, poultry, and fish respectively. And carbs, too. Just-meat makes me sick, and just-poultry makes me sick. I'm an herbavior, my entire physiology says so, and so does my stomache. Out of them all, I belive my stomach. *smiles* so. . . you go and have fun. I'll be here munching my disease-causing hot dog, drinking my chocolate milkshake, and after that I'll go chase my uncle's pet chickens. Maybe even play with 'em. And in the morning, eat their eggs.

Am I evil? It's debatable. I'm human.

[Sequoia]

oh, I forgot to add.

seeing as this is a pagan community, and many pagans belive that trees, plants, etc have spirits or at least are connected to some form of divinity. . .

did anybody ever think of what that poor plant is thinking when you yank off it's reproductive organs or snack on what is basically it's legs? It's amazing to me that since a plant doesn't eat other plants, doesn't eat meat (well the venus flytrap is arguable), doesn't move much, and doesn't look back at us. . . we assume it doesn't give a crap about us munching on it.

I would like to see someone's website about the evils of how horribly we treat corn, cramming it into those tiny rows, breeding it and FORCIBLY PLANTING IT *GASP* so that it grows how we want, and then RUNNING IT OVER AND YANKING OFF IT'S BABIES AND FEEDING THEM TO OUR CHILDREN! oh dear GOD corn is shown to cause death!! Every single person who ate corn eventually died!!! Dear god, it's an epidemic, we MUST get rid of corn IMMEDIATELY. And the plants! oh god! They suffer so! PLANTS RIGHT'S ACTIVISTS!! WHERE ARE THEY!?

. . . now, I want you to think about this.

We stop eating meat, fish, and poultry. We stop eating plants. We stop eating bugs (those have eyes and hence souls to suffer), fugi (they're alive! dammit! ALIVE!), dirt (it has bacteria in it, they're alive too), and we stop breathing (airborne spores and bacteria and viruses that we kill often when we breathe them in!)

now, tell me, who is left alive? Raise your hand?

I'll go right on doing my evil, vicious, carniverous thing now. Eventually I'm planning on learning to hunt. And skin, and gut, and dress that thing. Waste it? no way. Eat it? you bet. If I'm hungry, and that rabbit is sitting there going "I'm munching my grass and I'm part of the food chain and so are you and OH DEAR GOD YOU'RE HUNGRY". . . well darnit, Peter Cottontail is going over my fire. I"ll probably be squeemish and/or feel guilty and/or become incredibly distant towards my meal, thinking about other things (like how the hell I'm going to sew through rabbit fur). . . but if I kill that little thing, I'm going to eat it. Plain and simple.

If you'll excuse me, I have the role of the wolf to play. My part in nature.

[WandererInGray]

What on earth is a "berger"? :eyebrow:


Being from Colorado....I witnessed the devastation of that fire in Vail. Take a wild guess how much damage was done to the environment those people where supposed to be "protecting" from it?

*shakes head* I have no respect for people who think that the sacrifice of any life is justified to protect animals and the environment.

[SerenityMoon]

*applaudes* VERY well said, puma hime. I completely agree. it's been there from the start of humanity, and I, too, will get sick if just sticking to veggies, fruits, and other "protein" based foods (tofu, and junk like that). I like very little of these foods. But i love meat. *shrug* I could never actually kill an animal myself unless I really had to (ie: actually dying of starvation), but dammit the animal is killed and provided for me to eat, therefore, I'm gonna eat it.

[Flar's Freyja]

I didn't look at the site. I'm aware of the cruelties imposed on the animals and I don't like them. However, I tried vegetarianism many years back, and I got very sick and very fat.

I've spoken to several nutritionists and physicians about this and have been told that my particular metabolism does not tolerate a fruit and vegetable diet. I am hypoglycemic, have fibromyalgia and hormonal imbalances and my body needs the nutrients that meat provides. I have been told that red meat stimulates estrogen production and since I've had a hysterectomy I need to have an adequate amount of it. Dairy products alone just don't cut it for me.

I know many people that do well as vegetarians and that's great for them. But it doesn't work for all of us.

[Phoenix Blue]

**Nods**

Not only that, I think there's something about being a vegan that promotes arrogance. I've seen a lot of letters and columns and such written by Vegans, and they all seem to have the notion that the rest of us barbarians don't know what's good for us, or else we'd be vegans, too.

[FlamedLilly]

I just have one more thing to add. The picture in the article of the cows all bunched together behind the fence. I went to college in a feed lot town, also where the cattle were auctioned. Well the cows in that picture didn' tlive that way for more then a week, then they were either shipped to be killed or they were shipped to their new homes. If they were shipped to be killed then they might have had to stay like that for a little longer depending on the set up of the slaughter house, but, it wasn't for very long becuase slaughter houses don't make money buy feeding what they are going to kill.

[Kaylara]

Well, as far as I'm concerned...
If you take the Rede to mean Harm nothing, well then you will have to stop bathing, stop brushing your teeth, stop wearing clothing, stop eating all together, No drinking, No blinking, No digesting, No Breathing. No movement at all. Because everything that one does on this planet affects another life. Should I start being an activist for veggies and fruits. Is it ok to kill them just because they don't scream as loud???
Vegitarian or not, don't say that it is against the religion to eat meat. (Or try to make that connection)

[Flar's Freyja]

Hmmm....and since Harm None would include myself.......then if there was a connection I'd be harming myself by being vegetarian because it's not healthy for me.

[Psyche Ague]

I admit: I'm an avid animal lover. I love animals more than I could ever love people in general (individual people are another matter, of course).

I'm a vegetarian and have been for over a year now. I've never been so happy with a decision in my life. I lost 10 pounds that I really did not need and I've kept off the weight with a healthy, heart-friendly diet ever since. I don't miss meat, though I did at first. It's just like giving up sweets: after awhile you forget you even liked them. At least that's been my experience. If I eat meat now (it's happened only a few times...), I become violently ill.

As for the "harm none" INCLUDING plants, I admit that I believe that animals and plants are equally sacred. But I have to eat something. I wish I didn't have to for exactly that reason (eating holds no pleasure for me, just the calming of an overly-acidic stomach), but for physiological reasons, I eat. Plants are just healthier.

Meat, to break it down more, is NOT healthy for the human body (at least most bodies). I was even taught last year in my physical education class that one should avoid meat in order to lead a healthier life. I used to be taught that protein was ultra important and that eating meat was essential. They no longer teach that in schools (at least not at mine, which happens to be in the middle of conservative meat-loving farm country), which shows how people are beginning to face facts about saturated fats and what they really do. Protein is important, especially for those with nutritional deficiencies and diseases like diabetes or hypoglycemia, but most people overestimate how much they really need. Also, too much protein rids the body of much-needed calcium. A wonderful source of protein is soy or tofu.

However much I don't like meat or the fact that people still consume animal flesh, there are conditions in which eating meat may still be considered the best route medically. I accept this, of course.

I don't look down on people who eat meat. I've noticed that vegetarianism is more of a big deal to people who still eat meat than it is to those of us who don't. I don't rub it in people's faces. I maintain that eating preferences are a matter of personal choice. Hell, I'd support cannabalism. I really don't care. (That's not good for the body, either, by the way...;))

I don't understand vegan-bashing, either. I'm not vegan, but I think it's noble what they do and how strongly they believe in something. I admire faith and perseverence. They're qualities I wish I had more of. The fact that they act on what they believe floors me. Honestly, how many people do such "radical" things when they have almost all of society against them? It's just a way of life, a way of living, a way of eating. It's not as if they're raping and sacrificing 8-year old virgins on a daily basis. They eat tofu instead of cheese. *shrug* They're no more arrogant that you are, they just don't like honey or cheese or milk or leather. Whatever. Isn't the capitalist response to something like that usually: "ooh, more for me"? (Okay, so I jumped into politics with that one...)

Conclusion: IT'S JUST FOOD!!! Vegetarians, Vegans, and Carnivores should educate themselves on their individual bodies and makeup to correctly choose a way of eating that suits them best. If eating meat remains essential even at the risk of heart disease, stroke, diabetes (type II, anyway), cancer, obesity, etc, then make that decision. If one chooses to be a vegan or veggie, then so be it. Let it be.

[FlamedLilly]

Meat is a necesary part of the diet, there are things there that you can't get other places, and meat is only unhealthy if that's all of your diet consists of. Nutrition is almost like the dieting world. Someone does a study and all of a sudden eggs give you heart attacks, then 5 years later another study is done saying there's a protien or mineral or some substance in eggs that you can only get in eggs, and you'll have a heart attack with out it. Which is why I choose moderation in all things and I'm as healthy as any straight protien eater or any vegetarian that I know.

[Lyric]

I realize that I have not yet posted an intro to the board here, though I have been reading it for some time. I simply haven't yet had the time to reply or to post and thusly have procrastinated suitably on posting an intro. So, please pardon my butting in here without any form of intro first, but I could not resist. ;)

I am a vegetarian, I have been one for six years or so now. I don't think that the choice to be vegetarian has anything whatever to do with personal moral codes (Such as the Rede) or any interpretation thereof. I made the choice I made after years of longing to "take the leap" and dallying beyond belief. And so I took all meats out of my diet and am a lacto-ovo vegetarian.

In any case, that being said, ones food choices is a personal thing. I don't make judgements on what anyone else around me should eat and I get cranky when someone attempts such with me.

There are, quite simply, a multitude of instances of animal-cruelty, hormone usage, antibiotic usage, and of course we now throw in the wonderful catch-phrase of "genetic-engineering" that go along with this industry. Regardless of ones feelings about PETA, or any other organization, to say these things don't ever happen is naiive. I would no sooner say that then I would say that Pagans -never- have an incidence of an idiot run amok among our numbers. Lets not close our eyes to the facts, and by the same token let us not blow them out of proportion.

It comes down to this, the meat industry as we know it today is harmful and has a long way to go. So do the industries that currently maintain our produce supply. They are prone to the use of herbacides, pesticides, petroleum products and the ever present now, "genetic engineering" as well.

Someone made the point of a vegetarian wearing leather. (I appologize for not remembering your name, please forgive.) I do wear leather. I have leather in my shoes, in my belt, and I own two leather jackets as well as working leather into a number of other items such as pouches and the like.

I do so because, quite simply, in today's meat-eating marketplace, leather is a by-product of that industry. I do not hold any grand delusions about my being a vegetarian shutting down the meat-industry and thusly feel that all wastes should be utilized. I do utilize a great deal of organically grown, unbleached, cotton and/or hemp in my garments, linens, and other cloth things in my home. However I feel that for so long as leather is a plentiful product which is being generated at its current rate, that it should be used. (By this I mean cow-hide. I do not use doe-skin or fur, or any other form of leather as they are not "ever-present" and generated at an obscene rate as cow leather is.) I also re-use the paper generated in this house and minimize its use, I re-use nearly everything here and thusly generate much less waste than the average household. In short (or long, depending on your patience level ;) ) I do walk my talk, every moment of every day.

However, that does not mean that every person needs to conform to vegetarianism any more than every person needs to conform to a set religious doctrine. I make the choices that I make because they are what make me feel positive about who I am. I make these choices with wide-open eyes and an "awake" mind-set. And that is all I would ever wish for anyone.

Lyric

[flar7]

most leather doesnt come from your food beef. sorry.

Meat cures blindness
Heals the lame
Raises the Dead!!

heheheh, just lightening it up a little.

Try not to make blanket statements people. Like saying meat is
unhealthy for you? that is untrue and can be proven. Now if
you eat too much? yep, big time risk of colon cancer. But you
gots to have your fat, fatty acids, and protein and such...just to
fight off cancers.

To each his own. MODERATION is the key in all things.......

[Flar's Freyja]

And you do cook a hell of a steak, Flar :smooch:

[WandererInGray]

Well said, Flar!

I don't have a problem with vegans or vegitarians....most of the ones I've known in person have been witty, charming, thoughtful intelligent human beings. (Of course they are, they were friends with me! :D)

Every group has its share of arrogant ***holes though. *shrugs* People who like to loudly announce that they and they alone have found the way to truth and light.

Meat vs non-meat is just as beaten down an issue as the pro-life vs pro-choice one. It's emotional and people aren't going to convert simply on the "shame on you's" of another person.

Which I would like to add, is precisely how I saw this opening post. "look at those pictures....see how horribly the animals are treated...aren't you a bad Wiccan/Pagan/fill in the blank." :rolleyes:

Makes me want to eat a steak right in front of them just for spite. :D *ponders if subconciously that's why she had a burger for lunch*

If people want to be vegans/vegitarians....that's great and I applaude you for your decision. But don't try to force it on others by saying how horrible meat-eaters are.

[Gwion]

"Can I call you Mom?"~Babe

[flar7]

:mmm:Pork, yummy!

[WandererInGray]

*grins* I suppose this would also be an inappropriate place to tell the stories about how my sisters and I used to run around with pig tails from our father's pig farm? :D

[Kaylara]

Originally posted by WandererInGray


Makes me want to eat a steak right in front of them just for spite. :D *ponders if subconciously that's why she had a burger for lunch*

If people want to be vegans/vegitarians....that's great and I applaude you for your decision. But don't try to force it on others by saying how horrible meat-eaters are.

I had a vegan friend a while ago who used to flip out every time he saw me eating an animal product. He called me death breath, and I made the noise of whatever animal I was eating at the time. It actually made him turn green...

hee hee hee...

Kaylara

[Pan]

I've had this argument with several people.. and they eventually left me alone. In fact, I have this discussion with hubby almost every day on the way to work because of all the soy fields we pass by!

On the way to work, which takes about an hour, we pass by at least 10 soy fields. How many cow fileds? Oh.. 5 at the most. And I see the cows grazing on less land for longer amounts of time than I see ACRES of soy that can only be used for a certain amount of time before the land has to rest, or crops rotated.

So don't bring up the "cattle graze on more land than soy takes to grow" thing. ;) Sometimes it just isn't true.

I tried to be a veggie. I can't. I like meat way too much. I like pasta (made with eggs), bagels, bread, pancakes! I like CAKE and muffins and cupcakes and steak, chicken, stew, chili with meat in it. It's just a preference. I've argued with a vegan for over an hour on why I eat meat. He eventually gave up on me. Shame. ;)

I don't eat meat all the time. Sometimes I crave a bowl of peas. I HATE tofu. I've tried several kinds in several ways. No matter how you slice it.. it's still smushy, nasty, greasy-tastin' tofu. You can have it. :D

When I was friends with a vegetarian, I made sure to eat all the meat on my plate. She taught me more respect for what I was eating, which is great! Now I'm sure to try to eat all I take when I eat meat. I just don't like those psuedo-meats that they sell.

As for the plant thing, Puma Hime.. YES!!!!!! I've used that argument time and time again versus Pagan vegetarians. It usually stumps them. :D Thank you thank you for posting that!

That's it from me... I've said all I need to.

And Flar, can you cook a mean steak? ;)

[Sequoia]

hehehe. . .

I'm really truely sorry if I came off sounding like an a**hole earlier. I'm just really sick of the sort that are like. . . "OH MY GAWD YOU JUST ATE A PIECE OF MEAT, YOU'VE JUST CONDEMNED THIS WORLD TO CAPATILST HELL AND BURNED AN ACRE OF RAINFOREST WITH YOUR OWN HANDS AND DOOMED POOR BABY ANIMALS TO DEATH! YOU EVIL PERSON YOU!" ". . . *blink* . . . *blink* . . . *cut piece of steak* *make eye contact with vegi-freak* *CHOMP MEAT*" "o_o like, oh my dye-free-organically-grown-historically-proven-anit-war-love,peace,freedom-white-dove-gawd. . . " "*chew slowly, swallow*" "O_O. . . . " "oh! :D you really should try this, it's delicious *hold out piece* *watch vegi-freak run screaming*"

For those of you who are vegans or vegitarians, who are true to that path and who hold up your ideals. . . huge mega kudos for you! I applaud you!

But has anyone noticed how the dumbest people are usually the loudest? And least representitive of their group? *chuckles*

[Psyche Ague]

Originally posted by Puma Hime
But has anyone noticed how the dumbest people are usually the loudest? And least representitive of their group? *chuckles*

Yes.

I honestly don't know any vegetarians (and I know quite a few...I'm at a very liberal college right now) who would freak out that badly at someone at their table for eating animal flesh. I'm sure they wouldn't appreciate a meat-eater waving a dripping, bloody steak in front of their faces, cackling maniacally and gnawing on it, drooling blood out of their mouth the way scores of carnivores have done to me. "Hey, Anni, look! *shoves a plate of nearly-raw, bloody meat in my face when I'm trying to eat*" It's just immature both ways. I've never met a vegetarian who would do such a thing. They seem to be the more tolerant type...it just sort of goes with the territory, I thought.

And you made so many beautiful points, Lyric, that I don't even know where to start applauding you! Hello and welcome home, hun! :wave:

[Sequoia]

good point. . . I've only met one or two who were so frantic about meat-eaters. But I guess they leave the lasting impressions. I've probably snacked next to hundreds of vegitarians and not noticed. That's life :)

oh, by the way. . . I'm not a carnivore. I'm an omnivore. I do consume some veggies and fungi, y'know. . . ;)

[SerenityMoon]

*ahem*.
to say that they don't teach meat being good for you in school is not true. I am taking child development classes to be a teacher, and we are in the nutrition unit right now. they are saying that meat is essential.
to me, it depends on yoru body. some people can eat nothing but meat and maintain a great healthy body (ideal weight, healthy innards, etc) and be fine. others, it makes them sick. it depends on YOU.
meat is not bad for the body. it may make SOME PEOPLE sick, but it's not BAD for your body.
I know a guy who ate nothign but meat for almost a year, and lost the weight taht could have killed him. he's at an average weight now and completely healthly.
*shrugs* to each his own. I will always love meat. And i really hate when people push the "oh my GAWD, you animal killer "down my throat (literally *ba dum ching* tee hee).

[Phoenix Blue]

**Nods** Besides, I don't see where there's anything inherently wrong about being an animal killer. Would these folks give lions and wolves a hard time, too? **Blinks** Umm, hello? :p

[FlamedLilly]

This forum reminded me of a cartoon I once saw. It starts out with a midevil movie being shot, dragon and all, next scene is a bunch of animal rights activists coming to protest the movie for cruelty. Then the last scene is the dragon burping and picking his teeth with one of the protest signs.

[SerenityMoon]

LOL that's so funny, flamedlily.

[Arzhela]

Hmmmm...seems to me there are some interesting generalizations being made on both sides of this argument.
Here are my thoughts on the subject:

Animals are not always mistreated in feedlots and the like.
However, they definitely have been and still are in some cases.

Meat is not neccessary for our survival.
However, it is helpful, and more natural for us than eating tofu. Meat was originally eaten by humans only very occasionally, because it was hard to get. So it is true that many meat-eaters eat too much meat. But that doesn't mean that we shouldn't eat any meat.

Leather is usually NOT a by-product of the meat industry. It would be great if it was, because it would mean less waste. However, that's mostly not what happens.

Wow, on the subject of the environmental effects of raising meat versus raising plant material: the argument that plant-farming is better than meat-farming for the environment is actually, for the most part, true. So it's a little upsetting to see somebody discounting it because of one experience seeing gigantic soyfields and only a couple cattle fields. If pesticides/antibiotics are used on neither, and if the waste from the animals is properly disposed of...say, converted into compost, then, yeah, they're just about equal (although it is true that it will take less space to raise enough corn to feed a family for a year than to raise enough meat to feed a family for a year). Pesticides can drain off into water sources, waste can do the same. But it's a lot easier for meat farming to take up more space and harm the environment than it is for plant farming.

I see the value in taking the destruction of plants in terms of the "harm none" rule. The idea of plants being upset by having their reproductive organs and legs ripped off also has some interesting things to think about. However, it should be taken into account that most plants do produce new reproductive parts and legs throughout their life, and animals do not. It's not really the same thing. I have not read those books on the "Silent Scream" theory, so I guess I'm not very well-informed on that subject, but I've talked to people who have read it and I don't think I buy it. Scientifically, I think it would be hard for it to occur without the central nervous system that plants lack.
That said, anything's possible, and I do think that plants have certain personality-like thing about them, just as animals do.

I'm really not a vegetarian. I try to eat in moderation, just as many people here have said that they like to do. I do find that I just can't stomach eating meat on some days, but I certainly hope that that doesn't make me a hypocrite or arrogant or any of the other things that have been implied about vegetarians in some posts here (althogh, to be fair, some vegetarians really do tend to preach, and that quite rightly tends to make people angry)...

On a different note: what do folks think about the new rules behind organic labeling? Do you think that it will help create better standards, or will only a very few companies choose to go organic?




Sorry if this post has offended anyone. I was a little uncomfortable with some of the things being said on both sides, and if I have unwittingly made someone else uncomfortable then I apologize.

[Pan]

Well.. I didn't mean to upset anyone and I thought that was implied.. but I guess not. :p

I just go by what I see.. what I *know*. And I've seen so many soy fields and so few cattle fields.. one sheep field with a llama in it. Everywhere I've ever lived (and with Dad being in the Navy, that's a lot), I've rarely seen any cattle fields and I've seen acres upon acres of tabacco, corn, soy, and mustard. At least, I think it was mustard.... I can't be too sure on that one! 8O

I've not read anything on vegetable farming. I've not read anything on cattle farming. I don't particularly care about reading about either of those because I have no desire to raise fields upon fields of vegetables or cows. Just not my thing.

I do remember, though, that my family and I bought half a cow with hubby's family (this was when we were going out) and we ate beef for well over a year.. on half a cow. I know that's not eating beef every day of the year, but then people who do kill cows don't usually have beef every day of the year.. they do have chicken and whatnot. And we're talking about a family of 5 on my side, and a family of about 10 on hubby's side. Half a cow allowed my parents to feed us beef for well over a year. Fed hubby's family for a year as well. And that's just half a cow. You ever see how much meat a cow has on it? ;) LOL

So, yeah.. sometimes I know what I'm talking about.. sometimes I don't. And when I don't, I usually think I do.. sometimes. ;) But most of what I go by is what I've seen.

[Arzhela]

I know no offense was intended, Loki:) And, yep, cows have a LOT of meat on them:D However, the key really is that a family supported on beef probably wouldn't be eating it every day. Most families I know (granted, none of them are farm families) eat beef maybe every third or fourth day. They eat, say, wheat products, every single day in the form of bread (and variations thereof, like cakes), pasta, crackers, all types of crusts for pies and pizza, and sometimes cereal.
Going by both what I've seen and also a farm book that I have, the recommended grazing area to keep one cow while the grass is green is .8 to 1 acre. In the winter, a mixture of hay, mangels or other roots, oats, and barley are fed to the cow...all crops that take up space growing in summer (and the cow, depending on its size, needs 12 to 20 lbs of that a day! That can be more than a large family eats of plant products per day...that's a BIG area of land devoted purely to fodder). Against that about .4 acres of wheat is enough to feed a family for a year.
If you want more evidence, look at a biomass pyramid. There is more usable energy per cubic inch in producers (such as plants) than in consumers (such as cows, chickens, pigs, etc.)

Well, anyway. Both "scientific" numbers and experiences can be misleading, so it's possible that we're both a little off. Unfortunately it's pretty hard to get the "truth" these days, both because there are so many variables and also because nearly everyone has some idea to sell.

[WandererInGray]

Originally posted by Psyche Ague
I'm sure they wouldn't appreciate a meat-eater waving a dripping, bloody steak in front of their faces, cackling maniacally and gnawing on it, drooling blood out of their mouth the way scores of carnivores have done to me.
*shakes head* You know, even being a carnivore, Psyche, I'd smack someone if I saw them doing that....:D probably with that steak they were so foolishly waving around.

[Phoenix Blue]

Not me. I'd snatch the meat and stab them with the fork. :devil:

[Psyche Ague]

http://www.msnbc.com/news/824375.asp?pne=msn

An article I thought was relevant. Basically it says that doctors and nutritionists really don't know what they're talking about when it comes to how much protein you need versus how much carbs you need and that it's a matter of an individual's need and discipline. But they do say the word "moderation" over and over again. I still think that's the key to it all.

[Pan]

"location location location!" But that one doesn't apply here.. hehe

"moderation moderation moderation!" Grind it into your heads! Whee! I agree that that's what counts the most. Like today for luch I had a Big n' Tasty from McD's and a Hot n' Spicy Chicken Sammich from McD's.. Filled me to the brim!

While last night I had a bowl of wide egg noodles, peas, carrots, green beans, and sweet white corn. Of course, I used some chicken granules... but still. :p

There's one thing about waving a big steak in front of an omnivore's face.. but an herbivore (sp)? That's just mean! Of course.. I might be tempted to do it if said herbivore had been telling me the evilness of my meat-eating ways.. But I don't know if I'd ever do it. 8O

Also, I think it was on Alton Brown's Good Eats show that he said people have teeth for meat and veggies. Brava to those who eat just veggies.. and brave to those who eat both! We're all cool. :D

[Old Witch]

Originally posted by Phoenix_Blue
Not me. I'd snatch the meat and stab them with the fork. :devil:

I'm with you!!! Just cook the steak a little more for me please.............:D

[flar7]

One of the reasons the U.S. is such a big steak eating nation, is
our youth as a nation. In our mind we have plenty of land to
devote to raising food animals. In the east, they dont see it that
way, their land is at a premium, hence they eat less meat than
the western nations. Imagine Japan trying to become a nation
of beef eaters. They would have to deport people and still import
over half (probably well over half) of the beef. China eats more
meat products than most of their neighbors, and still its not that
much by our standards.

So, yes. It takes much more land to be a meat eating population
than if we were all veg. But it is not something the majority of
people are willing to give up yet. If the time comes, it will be due
to the economics of it, and not the "cruelty" factor.