The inclusion of Hindu deities by non born Hindus.

[Dumunzi]

I ask this question because I feel a bit of a interest in some Hindu deities. Vishnu, Shiva, Kali, etc.

However, I'm under the impression that it is pretty explicit in Hinduism that there is no conversion. That your born into it, not invited in, etc. There is a purification type ceremonies for those that converted to Islam/Christianity as an effort to get back to come back to their born faith, but there is no conversion process.

However, does this prohibit the worship of deities? Is that considered innapropriate??

[Toby Stimpson]

Your questions are complex and don't have easy answers.

Technically, no... if you are not born Hindu you cannot become one. The reasoning behind this is because, like Judaism, Hinduism is not just a religion it's a culture. With Islam, the religion it's self is a culture... but one that which anyone can join. Same with Christianity. However, with Hinduism... there is a certain ethnicity that goes along with that term. However, that being said, when critically looking at this and looking at the evidence and arguments this doesn't make sense and cannot be said to be tru of all Hinduism. After all, Hinduism is not a single entity in it's self. There are certain pieces and components common to0 most Hindus, but depending upon regional locality and interpretation as well as History... we find Hinduism is an umbrella of hundreds of different branches. The very term Hindu was invented by the Muslims as a way to determine everyone that was non Muslim. BUT, that being said... the main argument is that someone (white people) cannot fully understand the religion if we are not born and raised in the cultures that are connected to it.

However, there are many individuals, myself included, who ascribe and call ourselves Hindu by association with a God or sect. There are others who have actually had a conversion ceremony, if you ask Boabatree about his he can tell you more.

The issues of authenticity are certainly found in several religions who have converts. And even those religions that do accept converts, those issues of certain groups that dominate those religions can be said to affect converts (ex,. Arabs in Islam). There are those religions that also don't accept converts as valid at all... such as Zoroastrians. Certainly individuals within Hinduism like Swami Vivekenanda, Srila Bhaktivedenta Prabhupada, and The Maharishi Mahesh Yogi (including his one time student Sri Sri Ravi Shankar) looked to the west as being capable and ready for Hinduism.

I think that it will come down to the idea of each convert. I have struggled with defining myself for a long time because although some of my Hindu friends find it shocking sometimes that I know something about Hinduism or South Asian cultures... the general feeling I sometimes get is that they don't expect a certain level of awareness. Sometimes I have also encountered individuals who will accept me or refuse me. Either way... I've come to the point where it does not really matter to me anymore. That doesnt mean though that I could walk into a Mandir for Puja or Aarti and feel completely comfortable.

I think also the issues of language comes into play. I cannot speak Hindi... or any south asian language. when a religion is dominated by a certain group, those who are not of that group may find it incredibly difficult to feel oneness with the religion just around some of those things. Sure, Im working on it... but I will never understand Hindi the same way that soemone who can speak it can... and a s a result I can never fully appreciate some things of the religion. I can work at it though :).

[Dumunzi]

What about Hinduism and magic/witchcraft? Where does the faith typically stand on that area?

[kaosxmage]

What about Hinduism and magic/witchcraft? Where does the faith typically stand on that area?

I'm not Hindu; however I have studied the myths. I admire the way this polytheistic faith has evolved through the centuries. It's a wonderful lens to learn more about Indo Europeans and how our own native faiths may have evolved.

Beyond that, I honor Ganesha in many of my workings. He does break down barriers.

--Kaos

[Toby Stimpson]

What about Hinduism and magic/witchcraft? Where does the faith typically stand on that area?

Well, to be truthful there is no concept of witchcraft in Hinduism. And I don't think theres even a slight understanding in India of what Wicca or NeoPaganism is. If you ask about witchcraft on a Hindu forum, they may come misunderstand and try to dispel common myths that Hinduism is connected with evil magic or devil worship.

There's certain esoteric comparables that could be seen to address or represent magic, and that is tantra and maya. But they are not equivalent to western magic. Certainly things like tantra which stresses the use of inner energy, and all sorts of ideas of energy manipulation could be said to be magic... but these are not major parts of the major sects. There is the concept of performing rituals or meditating upon names and yantras to gain power... but these are boons at best. There is a lot of misinformation, mostly perpetuated by Wiccans and New Age followers that state that Hinduism is filled with magic and that magic is a part of life. But when we look underneath, there are often religious or mythological meanings for these things. Mantras are said to hold specific power, but this is because the sanskrit language is particularly holy.

[Anubis RainHawk]

As a Westerner and initiate on Shakta Tantra, here is my perspective:

While I do think it's possible to incorporate the Hindu goddesses and gods into your personal practice, I believe there is a cultural sensitivity that needs to be observed. These gods are complex energy forms that have evolved for centuries with specific prayers, rituals, and symbols. At the same time, I also believe that the gods are fluid, they can adapt to change, to culture, etc and still remain true to their vibratory energy.

In the temple that I study with, SHARANYA (http://sharanya.org), we practice a tradition called Sha'can, a neo-pagan tradition blending the traditions of both Western Witchcraft with Eastern Shakta Tantra. We believe that using the framework of Western esotericism such as casting a circle and calling the elements allows us to more easily and fully understand the perspective of the Hindu traditions. However, we also observe a very traditional puja (worship) practice which includes invocations from the Vedas and other texts as well as the practice of aarti, offering various items to be blessed by the divine.

As far as magic goes, I'd agree with Toby, (depending on your definition of magic) it is not part of the mainstream traditions, but IMO is a big part of Hindu Tantra, the Eastern equivalent of the Occult. Tantra utilizes such practices as meditation, yantra (symbol), mantra (sound), puja, and various other ritual methodologies to obtain siddhis (powers) such as clairvoyance and precognition. In additon, Tantra can also include forms of shamanism, work with spirits, and healing.

If this interests you, you may wish to read the article Tantra: The Method Of Kindling Dormant Energies (http://www.exoticindiaart.com/article/tantric)

Again, this is just my opinion based on my current level of knowledge. Hope it helps :)

-J

[Cobalt]

My reservations when it comes to add-mixing with Hinduism are that it's a really colonialist thing to do, appropriating bits and pieces of someone else's religion, chucking the original embedded meanings, and creating your own out of symbols that (to Hindus) probably didn't actually mean anything to you to begin with.

It's not merely that it's difficult to convert. It's also not merely a matter of "being a poser is bad, mmkay." It's a matter of having enough respect for a nation and a culture that has had its ownership of itself taken away by British colonialism, and is still working hard to get that power back. I would feel like I was shoving them backward in that struggle by appropriating their religion without paying extreme care to respect for the original cultural context.

A good example: There are a lot of Western Kali-worshippers who don't really actually care how Indians revere Kali. They may know one or two stories about her that sounded kinda cool, and she's sorta dark and scary which is how they feel sometimes, but Kali will be nice to them so it's not like they'll really have to deal with her wreaking havoc on their lives. Right? I mean, their Kali isn't at all like that scary indiscriminately-destroying goddess of violent transformation. Their Kali is theirs.

But this is disrespectful to the culture in which it came, the role that Kali plays within that culture, and if you believe that the gods are literally and actually real, it's disrespectful to Kali (since it entails uprooting her from her context, ignoring who she is, and telling her she needs to start being someone else).

It's possible to do this respectfully, and I have finally found some who do. But it's something to be very very careful about. Indians and Hindus have spent long enough in history being told that their culture, history, and traditions do not rightly belong to them. It's important for cultural outsiders not to participate in that by claiming what is theirs for ourselves.

[Mithrea]

I ask this question because I feel a bit of a interest in some Hindu deities. Vishnu, Shiva, Kali, etc.

However, I'm under the impression that it is pretty explicit in Hinduism that there is no conversion. That your born into it, not invited in, etc. There is a purification type ceremonies for those that converted to Islam/Christianity as an effort to get back to come back to their born faith, but there is no conversion process.

However, does this prohibit the worship of deities? Is that considered innapropriate??

Semi-old thread, but I thought I'd share my experiences. Most of my pagan friends are very active with the Hindu people in our community and worship Hindu deities as part of thier regular practices. The people at the India Center here have been extremely welcome, accomodating, curious and friendly about our visits to their worship services, lectures, etc.

[Toki Wartooth]

Dr. Uma Mysorekar on "The Colbert Report." (http://www.colbertnation.com/the-colbert-report-videos/174354/june-18-2008/barack-obama-s-church-search---dr--uma-mysorekar)

Well, by what she said, as a Hindu in the USA, Hindus don't believe in conversion because they don't solicit anyone, but people are welcome to "join" if they wish to follow Hinduism. Granted, she's no ... #1 spokesperson of all Hindus everywhere or even in the USA, but that's an opinion from a Hindu.

[Nox_Mortus]

I think it's important to note for things like this that Hinduism isn't really one unified religion, it's actually a bunch of religions that got grouped into one by the colonials. I've met some Hindus taht are open to allowing outsiders and several who aren't.

[David19]

Dr. Uma Mysorekar on "The Colbert Report." (http://www.colbertnation.com/the-colbert-report-videos/174354/june-18-2008/barack-obama-s-church-search---dr--uma-mysorekar)

Well, by what she said, as a Hindu in the USA, Hindus don't believe in conversion because they don't solicit anyone, but people are welcome to "join" if they wish to follow Hinduism. Granted, she's no ... #1 spokesperson of all Hindus everywhere or even in the USA, but that's an opinion from a Hindu.

Unfortunately, you can't watch the video in the UK, for some reason.

[Snapdragon]

You may be aware that there are Hindu outreach missions in the West. You can find some of these online.

I offer the thought that what matters most is not any "ism," but the divine. I give my active devotion to Kali alone, while acknowledging all the other god/esses. Ultimately, the individual is alone in the religious search, a pilgrim on the way to death's shrine. What has meaning, value, is to be found between worshipper and worshipped; the rest is entirely secondary.

[Toki Wartooth]

Unfortunately, you can't watch the video in the UK, for some reason.

Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh weird. Well, I at least gave you the gist? Lol. The joke was that Colbert was offering Obama a "new church," and he had Dr. Uma Mysorekar as a representative of Hinduism. She said Diwali is the Hindu sorta "Christmas," made it clear there was no tree, but that they lit lamps to celebrate the triumph of evil over good...mentioned Lakshmi. Um, she said Hindus don't believe in conversion; she said "conversion" involved "selling" the religion to others, or trying to convince them that their religion is "wrong" and that Hinduism is "right." She, at least, said that anyone who wants to follow the path of Hinduism is free to do so, but it is their choice. She also mentioned the meaning of "namaste" at the end.

So, there. That's a summary of ... a transcript. Haha.

Images, along with commentary from various people on things in Hinduism here (http://www.ultrabrown.com/posts/even-stephen).

Anyway, opinions do vary on whether one can be Hindu if not born it. I've seen many different ones on the topic. I personally think people can choose to be Hindu, but one must learn it very well...as both a spiritual path and in the context of history.

[David19]

You may be aware that there are Hindu outreach missions in the West. You can find some of these online.

I offer the thought that what matters most is not any "ism," but the divine. I give my active devotion to Kali alone, while acknowledging all the other god/esses. Ultimately, the individual is alone in the religious search, a pilgrim on the way to death's shrine. What has meaning, value, is to be found between worshipper and worshipped; the rest is entirely secondary.

This may be a dumb question, but, what do you mean, by Hindu Outreach missions?. BTW, I definitely agree with the rest of your post, and really love it, thanks for posting it, it's really inspiring :) :thumbsup:.


Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh weird. Well, I at least gave you the gist? Lol. The joke was that Colbert was offering Obama a "new church," and he had Dr. Uma Mysorekar as a representative of Hinduism. She said Diwali is the Hindu sorta "Christmas," made it clear there was no tree, but that they lit lamps to celebrate the triumph of evil over good...mentioned Lakshmi. Um, she said Hindus don't believe in conversion; she said "conversion" involved "selling" the religion to others, or trying to convince them that their religion is "wrong" and that Hinduism is "right." She, at least, said that anyone who wants to follow the path of Hinduism is free to do so, but it is their choice. She also mentioned the meaning of "namaste" at the end.

So, there. That's a summary of ... a transcript. Haha.

Images, along with commentary from various people on things in Hinduism here (http://www.ultrabrown.com/posts/even-stephen).

Anyway, opinions do vary on whether one can be Hindu if not born it. I've seen many different ones on the topic. I personally think people can choose to be Hindu, but one must learn it very well...as both a spiritual path and in the context of history.

Thanks for the summary, it sounded interesting, it's a shame I couldn't watch it (maybe I might find it on Youtube or something). I've heard that Hinduism, being a cultural religion, is very hard to convert too, and that, apparantly, some Hindu's in India believe Westerners are on a different reincarnation cycle to Hindu's, I'm not sure if that's true or not. Personally, I like what that woman said in the programme, that it's your choice, if you want to become Hindu or not, Hinduism doesn't actively seek converts, it's similar to Judaism in that way, which, IMO, is a very good thing.

Maybe it just depends on the Hindu or tradition.

[Toki Wartooth]

apparantly, some Hindu's in India believe Westerners are on a different reincarnation cycle to Hindu's, I'm not sure if that's true or not.

I've actually heard that, too, but I'm not sure how popular of an opinion that is, or if it's even an opinion held by any Hindus at all. ...Man, I could really use my 9th grade English teacher right now; she and her family's Hindu. Oh, well.

I'm sure the opinions vary, though online, I've--ironically--seen more opinions given by Westerners than actual Indians or Hindus themselves, lol. The world (or at least this board) may never know.

But yeah, I'm with you on liking what Dr. Mysorekar said, especially since I've as of late been interested in Hinduism myself. :]

[David19]

I've actually heard that, too, but I'm not sure how popular of an opinion that is, or if it's even an opinion held by any Hindus at all. ...Man, I could really use my 9th grade English teacher right now; she and her family's Hindu. Oh, well.

I'm sure the opinions vary, though online, I've--ironically--seen more opinions given by Westerners than actual Indians or Hindus themselves, lol. The world (or at least this board) may never know.

But yeah, I'm with you on liking what Dr. Mysorekar said, especially since I've as of late been interested in Hinduism myself. :]

That's what I thought, I'm sure some Hindus might believe it, but, Hinduism is very diverse, so, no one can really speak for all Hindus. I might look up Dr. Mysorekar, to see if I can find any more info about her. Personally, I really like learning about Tantra, and I'd love to check out works by Georg Feuerstein, especially his 'Tantra: Path of Ecstasy' (http://www.amazon.com/Tantra-Path-Ecstasy-Georg-Feuerstein/dp/157062304X), from the small part I read in Borders, it was really amazing, and he's a leading authority on Yoga and Tantra (the traditional one, not the modern one). You can check out his site here (http://www.traditionalyogastudies.com/).

[Toki Wartooth]

I found a lot of interesting sources from the Hindu Temple of Greater Cincinnati (http://www.cincinnatitemple.com/index.html). They have a page of downloads with various PDFs (http://www.cincinnatitemple.com/downloads.html), including one on becoming a devotee (http://www.cincinnatitemple.com/articles/BecomingAHinduOrDevoteeIsEasy.pdf).

[Snapdragon]

When I used this expression in an earlier post, I was thinking of two things.

First, Vedanta was specifically conceived of as a Hindu outreach to the West, and this continues to be the case. There are many vedanta contacts, and are not hard to find.

I was also thinking of Hindu temples in the West that are not products of an ethnic enclave, but simply there because people are drawn to this current of spiritual devotion. The Kali Mandir in Laguna Beach comes immediately to mind. Check out their online site, if you feel so inclined: http://www.kalimandir.org/

[Kaneithren]

Are you feeling a pull toward the specific deities, the Hindu religion(s), or a combination of the two? Are you interested in communicating with the deities in the traditional Hindu path - or along your own?

I would think that makes a significant difference in your approach and your ability to incorporate this factor (or factors) into your own path.

This could tie in somewhat with the cherry-picking mentality discussed in other threads, but I think that you can incorporate deity worship/communication from a variety of paths, and not necessarily classify yourself as a Hindu, etc.

The god/desses may appeal to you for their specific traits - but that doesn't necessarily mean that the path upon which you find yourself is a full-fledged traditional path.

Then again... it might. I'm just saying, you should take it in context for yourself. To speak to Kali, Shiva, or others, you don't necessarily have to be a Hindu...

I think that they call to you, not the other way around. :) So, if they are calling... do you answer, or no?

That's the simple approach, at least, to me. Most won't frown upon a respectful approach to that which they consider holy and special.

[David19]

I found a lot of interesting sources from the Hindu Temple of Greater Cincinnati (http://www.cincinnatitemple.com/index.html). They have a page of downloads with various PDFs (http://www.cincinnatitemple.com/downloads.html), including one on becoming a devotee (http://www.cincinnatitemple.com/articles/BecomingAHinduOrDevoteeIsEasy.pdf).

Thanks for that link, it definitely looks very, very interesting :).


When I used this expression in an earlier post, I was thinking of two things.

First, Vedanta was specifically conceived of as a Hindu outreach to the West, and this continues to be the case. There are many vedanta contacts, and are not hard to find.

I was also thinking of Hindu temples in the West that are not products of an ethnic enclave, but simply there because people are drawn to this current of spiritual devotion. The Kali Mandir in Laguna Beach comes immediately to mind. Check out their online site, if you feel so inclined: http://www.kalimandir.org/

Thanks for that great info and link, I'll also look up Vedanta :) :thumbsup:.


Are you feeling a pull toward the specific deities, the Hindu religion(s), or a combination of the two? Are you interested in communicating with the deities in the traditional Hindu path - or along your own?

I would think that makes a significant difference in your approach and your ability to incorporate this factor (or factors) into your own path.

This could tie in somewhat with the cherry-picking mentality discussed in other threads, but I think that you can incorporate deity worship/communication from a variety of paths, and not necessarily classify yourself as a Hindu, etc.

The god/desses may appeal to you for their specific traits - but that doesn't necessarily mean that the path upon which you find yourself is a full-fledged traditional path.

Then again... it might. I'm just saying, you should take it in context for yourself. To speak to Kali, Shiva, or others, you don't necessarily have to be a Hindu...

I think that they call to you, not the other way around. :) So, if they are calling... do you answer, or no?

That's the simple approach, at least, to me. Most won't frown upon a respectful approach to that which they consider holy and special.

I know this advice wasn't directed at me, but, thanks for saying it anyway, I think it's something I needed to hear, although I don't think it's the Hindu Gods that have called me.

[Snapdragon]

"I think that they call to you, not the other way around."

Exactly.

[Thunder]

I am a charter member of the un-dead but I was unaware that there are un-born strolling about.... where do they hold their monthly meetings? In a womb with a view I suspect.

[androgino]

First, let me state that I am not a Hindu, not of any Asian ethnicity, and I do not worship Hindu deities. I am a Westerner and I love Western culture more than I ever would love any other culture.

I feel that a non-Hindu should either leave Hindu religions alone OR follow a Hindu path but know what you are doing and do it right.

I happen to be one of those mean people who believes that the deities of various cultures are all different and that they prefer to be worshiped in the proper cultural context. They are not the "sacred playthings" for someone born in the West or anywhere actually to "use" and turn them into completely different deities. Hindu deities have become popular in the Neopagan and New Age movements. The bad thing about this is that the adherents of these movements are insulting the Hindu deities. They make images to portray Kali as a gothic lust goddess who fancies sharp things and has a bosom to die for. They sometimes pair up Hindu deities with European deities and worship them in a Neowiccan context. They have this weird fascination with making Hindu deities out of their rightful and original context. I even found out last year that LHP types of people have taken the god Shiva and decided to call him Satan. It's only because of his trident apparently. Well guess what you LHPers who have done this.. Shiva is from a whole different culture and worldview than the Satan you adore. Shiva is an ascetic god and yet you adore a god who upholds lust and indulgence. He is a god strongly associated with the union of Soul with God; something you people detest.

If you are a non-Hindu who desires to worship Hindu gods, then please, do it correctly. Don't cast a circle and offer Radha & Krishna some wine and cookies. These two famous Hindu deities do not want your alcoholic beverage nor your cookies with egg ingredients.

[kalidasa]

After taking time to really think about this ... here is my conclusion:

I am not a Hindu by birth but I am learning about Shaktism/Shakta and the core Hindu beliefs that are common in all four sects of Hinduism. I am learning to honor/worship/serve Mahadevi in Her many forms/aspects and to invoke Her many names in my life.

I am also a Witch. I do not incorporate Wicca since it is a religion and will clash more than connect with Hinduism nor do I encourage others to do so, but I do not judge if they so choose to do so.

I believe that the Gods/Goddesses in ALL pantheons/religions (Hindu included) need to be worshipped in the context of the culture they come from. No more of the Triple Goddesses (Hecate Triformis or Three-Headed, or Brighid, or the Morrigan) or even classing Goddesses together in the Maiden-Mother-Crone aspects that do not belong in such. Also, the whole pairing of Goddesses with Gods as Lady and Consort, is ridiculous (IMHO) unless they are truly seen as such in that particular culture.

So, for me ... as I learn of Kali, for example, and read things from a Neo-Pagan perspective, I do feel a bit insulted, because She is being taken out of context/culture.

There are some who are born Hindus that may feel insulted with me worshipping/honoring Kali or other Hindu Goddesses, but I know that I am taking them in their original context (except I am Shakta, which focuses on Goddess-worship). Also, my witchcraft is a CRAFT ... not a religion. So I am a Shaktic Witch as I call myself, because I am learning Shakta/ism and I practice witchcraft thus a Witch. But I do not do anything that would cause conflict between the two, and if I do, I am sure I will be enlightened to correct such mistakes and offenses.

[kalidasa]

I forgot to say, I totally agree with androgino's perspective.

[Louisvillian]

I'm not Hindu, but I believe the Vedic deities exist. Just as much as the gods of Europe, the Near East, etc.

Now, that doesn't mean that I worship them or integrate them into my practices. I am a conventional Wiccan and worship the original gods of Wicca. Largely, I do agree with worshipping gods as close to the cultural context as possible. But, OTOH...I take issue with your call of "no more Lady and Consort dynamic" and "no more maiden-mother-crone", because that originated in my religion and is completely appropriate there, with the gods it is intended to describe. It seems like you are opposed to those concepts in their entirety, rather than being against the misapplication of those ideas.

[kalidasa]

It seems like you are opposed to those concepts in their entirety, rather than being against mis-application of them.

I'm more against the mis-application. The concept in Wicca may be different, I didn't even know Wicca had it's own Deities ... just the stereotype(?) that they used Deities from other cultures.

If you use the Lady/Consort, or Maiden-Mother-Crone, that's entirely up to you ... but the more I learn Hindu beliefs and Shakta, the more I cringe when I see the mis-application or mis-understanding of Deities being taken out of context/culture to be mish-mashed in a crock pot of various, conflicting systems.

Sorry if I gave you the misunderstanding that I was against, rather than opposted to the mis-application, of those concepts.

[Louisvillian]

I'm more against the mis-application. The concept in Wicca may be different, I didn't even know Wicca had it's own Deities ... just the stereotype(?) that they used Deities from other cultures.
The triple goddess was originally a particular goddess, and the Horned God referred to a specific god; in Gardner's group's case, Aradia and Cernunnos. At least, that's what many sources seem to indicate.
However, Gardner more or less implied that Wicca could be variable and it is up to the individual or group to decide what gods to honour; just as long as they do in the proper context and largely kept Wiccan practices. He also suggested that one can honour different gods in-circle than they do in personal practice, and many often do.

However, the notion that Wiccans "use" deities from other cultures, blindly and without respect, is a stereotype more than anything else, based off a vocal minority.

[kalidasa]

The triple goddess archetype was originally a particular goddess, and the Horned God referred to a specific god. However, Gardner more or less implied that Wicca could be variable and it is up to the individual or group to decide what gods to honour; just as long as they do in the proper context and largely kept Wiccan practices. He also suggested that one can honour different gods in-circle than they do in personal practice, and many often do.

However, the notion that Wiccans "use" deities from other cultures, blindly and without respect, is a stereotype more than anything else, based off a vocal minority.

Wow, I truly didn't know this. Thanks for enlightening me.

Again, sorry for being blinded by that stereotype.

[Philosophia]

I believe that the Gods/Goddesses in ALL pantheons/religions (Hindu included) need to be worshipped in the context of the culture they come from.

While I somewhat agree with this, I think we need to also be aware that cultures do change with time.

[kalidasa]

While I somewhat agree with this, I think we need to also be aware that cultures do change with time.

Well, yea, I thought that would just be a given.

But good thing that you mentioned it because there are traditionalists and there are reconstructionists in many traditions.

[Philosophia]

Well, yea, I thought that would just be a given.

But good thing that you mentioned it because there are traditionalists and there are reconstructionists in many traditions.

Yeah, it's kinda a given but many people tend to forget that.

[kalidasa]

Yeah, it's kinda a given but many people tend to forget that.

Too true. Oh well, guess it's why we sometimes have to give reminders and gentle ruler-to-hand thwaps, and leave the Cosmic 2x4 to the Deities.

Although, I am sometime brutal/blunt, I try not to tear another down when I give my opinion or a correction.

Eh, progression, can't live with it, can't live without it!

[androgino]

I think Kalidasa implied in his statement about triple goddesses and holy couples that he now rejects the practice of turning goddesses into maiden/mother/crone goddesses. Also he rejects the practice of pairing up male and female deities together who historically were never believed to be consorts of each other. It is a popular Neopagan belief that all gods are one god, all goddesses are one goddess, and that the god & goddess are the divine couple. Thus there are Neopagans who have no problem pairing up Lakshmi with Hades for example.

In his Shaktic path it would be appropriate to worship Devi and Shiva as the divine couple because that is accurate in that particular path. He also obviously will not be pairing Ganesha with Kali as the divine couple because that would be inaccurate. He wouldn't be one to turn Saraswati, Lakshmi, and Kali into the triple moon goddess because that's not accurate in the Shaktic path. But it would be accurate to believe in Kali as the Creatrix, Preserver, and Destroyer; just not a waxing moon, full moon, and waning moon goddess.

As for anyone else believing in a triple goddess who is associated with the triple moon cycle, that's okay. This is a Wiccan belief and so it is thus accurate for Wiccans to have that belief. It is accurate for Wiccans to have the Oak King and Holly King connection with their god. But it wouldn't be accurate for a Gaudiya Vaishnava to assign this to Sri Krishna nor for a Hellenic Polytheist to assign this to Zeus.

Lastly, I know that cultures progress, but that doesn't mean one should abandon the culture's religious approach to deities. Many Polytheistic Reconstructionists do the best they can to remain historically accurate in their religion, but since the world has drastically changed over time that doesn't mean it would be inappropriate to do some things a little differently. The ancient Greeks cherished wine and milk and these happened to be what seems to have been the major libations poured to their deities in worship. Today a Recon is still going to pour these libations. However, since we live in places other than Greece and just so happen to cherish beverages such as frozen mochas and chai teas for example, we may feel like pouring these as libations to our deities. The pouring of the libation itself will still resemble the Greek practice because there are steps that must be taken in doing this. This type of change is absolutely fine. Though bringing in something new like calling Jesus the son of Zeus or deciding that Hermes is a Bodhisattwa who teaches Zen would not be appropriate innovations.

[kalidasa]

I think Kalidasa implied in his statement about triple goddesses and holy couples that he now rejects the practice of turning goddesses into maiden/mother/crone goddesses. Also he rejects the practice of pairing up male and female deities together who historically were never believed to be consorts of each other. It is a popular Neopagan belief that all gods are one god, all goddesses are one goddess, and that the god & goddess are the divine couple. Thus there are Neopagans who have no problem pairing up Lakshmi with Hades for example.

In his Shaktic path it would be appropriate to worship Devi and Shiva as the divine couple because that is accurate in that particular path. He also obviously will not be pairing Ganesha with Kali as the divine couple because that would be inaccurate. He wouldn't be one to turn Saraswati, Lakshmi, and Kali into the triple moon goddess because that's not accurate in the Shaktic path. But it would be accurate to believe in Kali as the Creatrix, Preserver, and Destroyer; just not a waxing moon, full moon, and waning moon goddess.

That's exactly what I was implying. Thanks for clarifying it ... you have a way with words!

And also, although I still celebrate the changing of moons and seasons, I do not do it by taking Kali and transforming her into a moon Goddess as you have stated. Although I may just find a way to reflect on Her many aspects with the changing of the moon phases.

Ultimately, the statements I've made come down to the fact that as a Shakta, I will not, cannot, and even cringe at the sight of others doing such practices with the Goddesses or Gods especially those in my path... it's ultimately up to the individual but may insult me and the Gods I worship, honor, and serve.

[androgino]

That's exactly what I was implying. Thanks for clarifying it ... you have a way with words!

And also, although I still celebrate the changing of moons and seasons, I do not do it by taking Kali and transforming her into a moon Goddess as you have stated. Although I may just find a way to reflect on Her many aspects with the changing of the moon phases.

Ultimately, the statements I've made come down to the fact that as a Shakta, I will not, cannot, and even cringe at the sight of others doing such practices with the Goddesses or Gods especially those in my path... it's ultimately up to the individual but may insult me and the Gods I worship, honor, and serve.

Thank you for that comment about me having a way with words. =)

Your celebration of the changing moons and seasons is absolutely fine. Did you know that over there in India they have more than four seasons?

I want to give you some advice my dear sister gave me: focus on your own path. If you focus on other people's path you may find yourself stumbling in some way. =)

[kalidasa]

I want to give you some advice my dear sister gave me: focus on your own path. If you focus on other people's path you may find yourself stumbling in some way. =)

You're right, which is why I don't focus on theirs. ;)

I just state what I know my reaction may be, but in the end, not up to me ... so I walk the road that I've been given.

[David19]

First, let me state that I am not a Hindu, not of any Asian ethnicity, and I do not worship Hindu deities. I am a Westerner and I love Western culture more than I ever would love any other culture.

I feel that a non-Hindu should either leave Hindu religions alone OR follow a Hindu path but know what you are doing and do it right.

I happen to be one of those mean people who believes that the deities of various cultures are all different and that they prefer to be worshiped in the proper cultural context. They are not the "sacred playthings" for someone born in the West or anywhere actually to "use" and turn them into completely different deities. Hindu deities have become popular in the Neopagan and New Age movements. The bad thing about this is that the adherents of these movements are insulting the Hindu deities. They make images to portray Kali as a gothic lust goddess who fancies sharp things and has a bosom to die for. They sometimes pair up Hindu deities with European deities and worship them in a Neowiccan context. They have this weird fascination with making Hindu deities out of their rightful and original context. I even found out last year that LHP types of people have taken the god Shiva and decided to call him Satan. It's only because of his trident apparently. Well guess what you LHPers who have done this.. Shiva is from a whole different culture and worldview than the Satan you adore. Shiva is an ascetic god and yet you adore a god who upholds lust and indulgence. He is a god strongly associated with the union of Soul with God; something you people detest.

If you are a non-Hindu who desires to worship Hindu gods, then please, do it correctly. Don't cast a circle and offer Radha & Krishna some wine and cookies. These two famous Hindu deities do not want your alcoholic beverage nor your cookies with egg ingredients.

I agree with a lot of what you said, although I'm not sure if someone attracted to the Hindu Gods, or some of them anyway, should have to follow Hinduism even if they weren't attracted to it all, I do agree they should worship the Gods respectfully, e.g. they don't have to call themselves Hindu or even adopt the lifestyle of a Hindu, but, they do have to worship Shiva, Kali, Shakti, or whoever else, in a respectful manner, and not just as divine playthings, or magical batteries to powerup your spells (if they were to actually look into Hinduism, they'd realise they wouldn't need to get Gods to powerup their spells, Hinduism has a vast and rich tradition of magic - God/Brahman is in us, when you really tap into that, you can do anything, there are many great tales and legends of Yogis and Tantrikas with vast magical powers that they developed themselves, so, really, the people who just use Hindu Gods as "magical batteries" are insulting the Gods for no good reason, they should really look into Traditional Yoga, and work hard at that). I don't really agree with pairing up deities from different pantheons, unless they have a very, very good reason, e.g. if Shiva himself came down to you, in a clear, non-dreaming, vision and said "me and Aphrodite have hooked up now, so, you can worship us together if you want too", but, that would be personal Gnosis for you, yourself.

I don't really like it when some people might say "Shiva is Satan", that, IMO, is just Western imperialism, although, to be fair, some Muslim groups have also called Shiva "Satan", so, it's not entirely Western groups fault. I do definitely agree, though, that if you want to worship the Hindu Gods, whichever ones they may be, it should be, and needs to be, done with respect.

[David19]

After taking time to really think about this ... here is my conclusion:

I am not a Hindu by birth but I am learning about Shaktism/Shakta and the core Hindu beliefs that are common in all four sects of Hinduism. I am learning to honor/worship/serve Mahadevi in Her many forms/aspects and to invoke Her many names in my life.

I am also a Witch. I do not incorporate Wicca since it is a religion and will clash more than connect with Hinduism nor do I encourage others to do so, but I do not judge if they so choose to do so.

I believe that the Gods/Goddesses in ALL pantheons/religions (Hindu included) need to be worshipped in the context of the culture they come from. No more of the Triple Goddesses (Hecate Triformis or Three-Headed, or Brighid, or the Morrigan) or even classing Goddesses together in the Maiden-Mother-Crone aspects that do not belong in such. Also, the whole pairing of Goddesses with Gods as Lady and Consort, is ridiculous (IMHO) unless they are truly seen as such in that particular culture.

So, for me ... as I learn of Kali, for example, and read things from a Neo-Pagan perspective, I do feel a bit insulted, because She is being taken out of context/culture.

There are some who are born Hindus that may feel insulted with me worshipping/honoring Kali or other Hindu Goddesses, but I know that I am taking them in their original context (except I am Shakta, which focuses on Goddess-worship). Also, my witchcraft is a CRAFT ... not a religion. So I am a Shaktic Witch as I call myself, because I am learning Shakta/ism and I practice witchcraft thus a Witch. But I do not do anything that would cause conflict between the two, and if I do, I am sure I will be enlightened to correct such mistakes and offenses.

I agree with you, and, I don't think you're being disrespectful, like you said, being a Witch is not a religion, being a Witch is about magic, developing powers, and exploring yourself, you don't need a religion to be a Witch (there are even Atheist Witches). So, I don't think you need to worry :).

[kalidasa]

Glad you agree. And you're correct in stating that being a Witch isn't a religion, although for some it may be.

Also, I'm not worried. ;) But thanks. :)

[David19]

Glad you agree. And you're correct in stating that being a Witch isn't a religion, although for some it may be.

Also, I'm not worried. ;) But thanks. :)

No problem :).

[petrus4]

I ask this question because I feel a bit of a interest in some Hindu deities. Vishnu, Shiva, Kali, etc.

However, I'm under the impression that it is pretty explicit in Hinduism that there is no conversion. That your born into it, not invited in, etc.

As far as the Indian people themselves are concerned, from what I've been able to discover, it depends on denomination. I believe the Vaishnava and Smarta groups in particular take a fairly hard line about ethnic non-Indians not being permitted to convert to Hinduism; but then again, there are some among the Vaishnava who, from what I have read, do not consider Shaktism a valid Hindu denomination, even among ethnic Indians. I will admit that I have been very careful not to approach the native Indian community here in Australia about my faith, and other than speaking of it online, largely worship Kali in secret.

I was initially contacted by Kali Ma myself two years ago, this past July. I had an enormous amount of internal conflict over the fact that I am not ethnic Indian myself; however, I cannot deny the reality of the contact, as I had barely heard of Kali before it happened. I was also given a particular name in October of 2006, which partly translates in Sanskrit, and the other half is a major seed mantra, as well; that was 10 months before the initial contact, and close to two years before I started looking up Sanskrit words or the beej mantras.

I admit that I do not, however, really advocate the Wiccan blending with Hinduism as such, and yet there is evidence that Ma may have genuinely had a hand in the formation of Gardnerian Wicca. From what I have read, when he went to India, Gardner was drawn to her more than any of the other Devas that he saw at the time, in terms of their artwork.

I will also say that I have known of a number of cases online where ethnic non-Indians have been spontaneously contacted by Kali Ma, Lord Ganapati, (Ganesha) and Lord Hanuman in particular.

I do not know for sure how large a percentage of the indigenous Indian population would be offended by people from outside the country being drawn to their religion.

I will only say that I know beyond doubt not only that the Devas are real, but also that they are very actively, graciously, and powerfully moving among those from outside India. As the Aesir and other pantheons are coming back to offer their love and grace to those who are becoming spiritually orphaned, with the fading of Christianity, so also am I seeing that Lord Shiva and his family are opening their arms to us as well.

They are a blessing beyond measure.
Jai Kali Ma. :)

[kalidasa]

I will only say that I know beyond doubt not only that the Devas are real, but also that they are very actively moving among those from outside India. They are a blessing beyond measure.


You are very correct, as I should know for I am one who is outside India but have been contacted by Kali to be Her servant/child.

Great blessings are in store indeed for those who hear the voice of the Devas.

[Anubis RainHawk]

Something that may be of interest to some of you...PanGaia magazine recently published an article titled the Emerging IndoPagans by Devi Spring (founder of the Shakti Wicca tradition). It includes interviews from several known leaders, including my own priestess, Chandra Alexandre. You can read it as a pdf. here (http://sharanya.org/about/PanGaiaIndoPagans.pdf)

-A.

[David19]

Something that may be of interest to some of you...PanGaia magazine recently published an article titled the Emerging IndoPagans by Devi Spring (founder of the Shakti Wicca tradition). It includes interviews from several known leaders, including my own priestess, Chandra Alexandre. You can read it as a pdf. here (http://sharanya.org/about/PanGaiaIndoPagans.pdf)

-A.

Thanks for the link.

[Russ]

I am one that believes all Paganism and civilization has it's heart in India and from what I understand a growing number of Hidnu's don't mind using the term Pagan AND they do not mind us European Pagans intermixing our views with there's.

Maybe one day we will have a United Pan-Terran Paganism

[David19]

I am one that believes all Paganism and civilization has it's heart in India and from what I understand a growing number of Hidnu's don't mind using the term Pagan AND they do not mind us European Pagans intermixing our views with there's.

Maybe one day we will have a United Pan-Terran Paganism

I'm not sure if that's necessarily true, there may be a growing number of Western/American Hindus (who may or may not be converts) who don't mind the term Pagan (like David Frawley (www.vedanet.com), Linda Johnsen (http://books.google.com/books?q=Linda+Johnsen+-+Pagan), even Ram Swarup (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ram_Swarup)), but, to Hindus, especially in India, the term "Pagan" is an insult, in fact, the very word was originally meant as an insult (basically, country hick, red neck, coward - those that refused military service, etc), it was also applied to the very early Christians by the Romans.

Also, I'd question whether or not, all Pagan religions has its heart in India, for starters, not every religion believes in reincarnation, karma, that the universe exists in cycles, etc. You won't find many of those things in amongst Aztec recons, Mayan recons (if there are any of the latter, I know there are Aztec recons), those that practice the Incan religion, or Sumerian, etc. You might find the universe having different cycles (e.g. in Aztec and Mayan and maybe Incan, the universe has been created and destroyed many times).

So, I think it depends, for myself, I wouldn't apply the term "Pagan" to Hindus or Buddhists, just like I wouldn't term Native Americans "Pagan", they are what they are - Hindus are Hindus, Buddhists are Buddhists, Native Americans are Native Americans, etc. Whether or not, some in those communities see themselves as Pagan is another matter.

[ninurta2008]

Also, I'd question whether or not, all Pagan religions has its heart in India, for starters, not every religion believes in reincarnation, karma, that the universe exists in cycles, etc. You won't find many of those things in amongst Aztec recons, Mayan recons (if there are any of the latter, I know there are Aztec recons), those that practice the Incan religion, or Sumerian, etc. You might find the universe having different cycles (e.g. in Aztec and Mayan and maybe Incan, the universe has been created and destroyed many times).


Sumerians didn't believe the universe existed in cycles? I never knew about that difference between babylonian and sumerian religions. Then again, astrology/astronomy does figure into alot of babylonian beliefs.

[David19]

Sumerians didn't believe the universe existed in cycles? I never knew about that difference between babylonian and sumerian religions. Then again, astrology/astronomy does figure into alot of babylonian beliefs.

As far as I know anyway, did the Babylonian's believe the universe existed in cycles, e.g. that after this universe, there'd be another one, and on and on, like in Hinduism?.

[Russ]

I'm not sure if that's necessarily true, there may be a growing number of Western/American Hindus

I'm just quoting what a few temples are saying now. Hence the part about growing numbers. I'll track the quote down if you want.


Also, I'd question whether or not, all Pagan religions has its heart in India, for starters, not every religion believes in reincarnation, karma, that the universe exists in cycles, etc. You won't find many of those things in amongst Aztec recons, Mayan recons (if there are any of the latter, I know there are Aztec recons), those that practice the Incan religion, or Sumerian, etc. You might find the universe having different cycles (e.g. in Aztec and Mayan and maybe Incan, the universe has been created and destroyed many times).

Well you know as they moved on things do change over time. Just as an example see the relations between the Indo-European faiths. They sprang from a root faith but grow and developed over time.

[David19]

I'm just quoting what a few temples are saying now. Hence the part about growing numbers. I'll track the quote down if you want.

I would be interested in seeing it, if you wouldn't mind, I know some there does seem to be a growing population of Indo-Pagans, see here (www.pangaia.com/pdfs/46%20Indo%20Pagans.pdf) for an interview with Devi Spring, founder of Shakti Wicca (http://shaktiwicca.tripod.com/) (there are lots more interesting links, and groups, in the interview, if you're interested), but, I'm not sure if there are official Hindu Temples saying they're Pagan.



Well you know as they moved on things do change over time. Just as an example see the relations between the Indo-European faiths. They sprang from a root faith but grow and developed over time.

True, but it's unlikely the people who would eventually become the Aztecs, Mayans, Incans, etc believed in karma, etc, they may have believed in reincarnation, although not in the same way as Hindus (for example, the Aztec's believed that the soul went to an underworld, one of many if I'm remembering correctly, although they also held that that the greatest afterlife a soul could hope for was to be reborn as a butterfly, which not everyone achieved, if you want to learn more about Aztec beliefs, go to this great site (http://www.amoxtli.org/cuezali/iam.html)).

Personally, I think that's a good thing, diversity is a blessing, it's good all religions, and people, don't believe the same things.

[Toby Stimpson]

I'm just quoting what a few temples are saying now. Hence the part about growing numbers. I'll track the quote down if you want.

This is certainly an interesting... thing. I've never heard anything like it and really doubt it's validity. There is no concept of Paganism in Hinduism that I have heard of. If you ask a south asian Hindu anything about witchcraft or paganism, they'll more often than not not know what you're talking about or start defending their religion as not being related to devil worship or satanism. So when you say 'a couple of Temples' I'd wonder if these are white run temples... or if they are temples at all. Please provide a link to this because I have never heard this.

[Russ]

I would be interested in seeing it, if you wouldn't mind, I know some there does seem to be a growing population of Indo-Pagans, see here (http://www.pangaia.com/pdfs/46%20Indo%20Pagans.pdf) for an interview with Devi Spring, founder of Shakti Wicca (http://shaktiwicca.tripod.com/) (there are lots more interesting links, and groups, in the interview, if you're interested), but, I'm not sure if there are official Hindu Temples saying they're Pagan.

[QUOTE]True, but it's unlikely the people who would eventually become the Aztecs, Mayans, Incans, etc believed in karma, etc,

Why do you say that? Hinduism inspite of how we Westerners love to see it has and had a strong militant flavor?

For that matter you are aware that to many Hindu's karma was nothing more than a God's judgement upon mortals right? Not the all seeing system of lesson teaching New Agers like to think it is.


This is certainly an interesting... thing. I've never heard anything like it and really doubt it's validity. There is no concept of Paganism in Hinduism that I have heard of.

And there wasn't among the Pagans of Europe till the Christian Church showed up.


If you ask a south asian Hindu anything about witchcraft or paganism, they'll more often than not not know what you're talking about or start defending their religion as not being related to devil worship or satanism.[quote]

Well remember where there getting there data from. When they learn about Western culture from Missionaries or from our fairy tales and dictionaries they wont get the best impression. Remember what Pagan is in Websters'?

[quote]So when you say 'a couple of Temples' I'd wonder if these are white run temples... or if they are temples at all. Please provide a link to this because I have never heard this.

I'm looking through my books even as we speak and checking with some people I correspond with.

[Russ]

I believe I've found the data. I was mistaken it seeems, although still looking into the temple line of inquiry, came from an article in Hinduism today. There editor Ram Swarup (Indian born Hindu) said this, I know the magazine is support by a temple in Hawaii.

[Russ]

Got the information from Oberon Zell-Ravenheart. It was from him or Isaac Bonewits I heard this.




Yes, it was Rev. Palaniswami, the Editor of "Hinduism Today," the major newspaper for English-speaking Hindus worldwide. His editorial in the Feb. 1991 issue (Vol. 13, No. 2) was titled "Thank Goddess for Pagans." The cover story for that issue was in the Hindu-Pagan link: "Europe's Ancient Nature Worshippers, the Pagans, Call for a Hindu Alliance." Elsewhere in the issue was an interview with Prudence Jones of the UK Pagan Federation: "Yes, Hindus are Pagans," as well as boxed items noting definitions and similarities between our respective religions.

And Ram Swarup, foremost writer and spokesperson on Hindu religion and culture in India, wrote "Of Hindus, Pagans, and the Return of the Gods" in the Oct 1991 issue of the Indian Hindu magazine, "Voice of India."

[Toby Stimpson]

Got the information from Oberon Zell-Ravenheart. It was from him or Isaac Bonewits I heard this.

I've got to say that I really criticize this...

Thankyou for offering the source, but critically thinking about this... and looking at the source material, there is a huge difference and flaw in what you're saying. Hinduism Today is an epic newspaper... but that doesn't mean that all Hindus read it or that it reflects all Hindus. It certainly tries...

Youre argument is that Paganism now has it's roots in India... and that a growing number of Hindus are using the term Pagan. BUT, one source from 19 years ago is not going to back up the claim that a lot of Hindus use this term... because if we look at this article:

http://www.hinduismtoday.com/modules/smartsection/makepdf.php?itemid=797

It makes the case that Hindus are Pagans based on the definition that anything not Christian, Islam or Jewish is Pagan... which is an erroneous definition because NeoPaganism and the definition of Pagan used by them is very different from the definition they are using.

NeoPaganism as we know it on this website, discluding reconstructionism ofcoruse, has it's roots a hundred years ago when information about Hinduism and Buddhism was reaching europe... so it makes sense that Paganism shares beliefs and ideas because those ideass and beliefs were coopted in the first place... and what ideas were not taken or adapted from Hinduism then, came from older ideas that existed mostly in europe that are common features around the world anyways (such as polytheism).

Also, the tone of this paper is to speak about mostly western people called Pagans using Hindu Gods and elements... instead of vice versa. Which is another huge hole in what you're suggesting.

Also... Ram Swarup is the poster child of Hindu nationalism in India... he is not the foremost writer on Hinduism and his writings very much border on fascism... and when he wrote about Pagans in europe, he was using that to strengthen anti-Muslim and Christian sentiments.

[Russ]

Somehow I knew you'd just dismiss my sources out of hand.

Also what do you think the Indo in Indo-Euopean Paganism stands for?

[Toby Stimpson]

Somehow I knew you'd just dismiss my sources out of hand.

Also what do you think the Indo in Indo-Euopean Paganism stands for?

I'm not dismissing, I'm being critical... I mean they are sources right? But what you're saying is not found in your sources...

Indo-European though refers to something completely different from Hinduism and NeoPaganism. First of all it relates to a language family, secondly it refers to a large number of different groups... sometimes with different religious ideas. Sometimes similar themes and similar sounding words, but very different contexts. I never said there weren't links... but we have to take it in context and we have to understand what fits where and how it interacts. When the Vedics and related peoples were moving across asia towards India, they were not Hindus and Hinduism as it is now didn't exist. Neither did NeoPaganism as it exists now. They weren't really that remarkable because a lot of different cultures shared similar surface level beliefs at the time, diversifying later on. I mean that is the most common theory about religious migration and evolution.

[David19]

Got the information from Oberon Zell-Ravenheart. It was from him or Isaac Bonewits I heard this.


I've got to say that I really criticize this...

Thankyou for offering the source, but critically thinking about this... and looking at the source material, there is a huge difference and flaw in what you're saying. Hinduism Today is an epic newspaper... but that doesn't mean that all Hindus read it or that it reflects all Hindus. It certainly tries...

Youre argument is that Paganism now has it's roots in India... and that a growing number of Hindus are using the term Pagan. BUT, one source from 19 years ago is not going to back up the claim that a lot of Hindus use this term... because if we look at this article:

http://www.hinduismtoday.com/modules/smartsection/makepdf.php?itemid=797

It makes the case that Hindus are Pagans based on the definition that anything not Christian, Islam or Jewish is Pagan... which is an erroneous definition because NeoPaganism and the definition of Pagan used by them is very different from the definition they are using.

NeoPaganism as we know it on this website, discluding reconstructionism ofcoruse, has it's roots a hundred years ago when information about Hinduism and Buddhism was reaching europe... so it makes sense that Paganism shares beliefs and ideas because those ideass and beliefs were coopted in the first place... and what ideas were not taken or adapted from Hinduism then, came from older ideas that existed mostly in europe that are common features around the world anyways (such as polytheism).

Also, the tone of this paper is to speak about mostly western people called Pagans using Hindu Gods and elements... instead of vice versa. Which is another huge hole in what you're suggesting.

Also... Ram Swarup is the poster child of Hindu nationalism in India... he is not the foremost writer on Hinduism and his writings very much border on fascism... and when he wrote about Pagans in europe, he was using that to strengthen anti-Muslim and Christian sentiments.

I'm going to agree with Toby, I don't think that proves it's a growing number, maybe a number of Western Hindus, particularly white converts to Hinduism (who may or may not have been Pagans before), but, to the vast majority of Hindus, they define themselves as simply being Hindu, not part of Paganism, not Abrahamic, not Indo-European, just Hindus, the same way Buddhist's define themselves as Buddhists, not as Hindus.

Also, Toby already said it, but, Ram Swarup seems to only want to divide people into an "us vs. them" divide, e.g. Hindus and Pagans on one side vs. Christians and Muslims on the other. Unless a majority of Hindu's suddenly start saying they're Pagan, then, I don't think they are (and, to get a majority, you'll need billions of Hindus saying it, I can't recall the figure right now, but, I think the number of Hindu's in the world does run into the billions, or close to it anyway, Toby could probably correct me if I'm wrong, though).


Also what do you think the Indo in Indo-Euopean Paganism stands for?


I'm not dismissing, I'm being critical... I mean they are sources right? But what you're saying is not found in your sources...

Indo-European though refers to something completely different from Hinduism and NeoPaganism. First of all it relates to a language family, secondly it refers to a large number of different groups... sometimes with different religious ideas. Sometimes similar themes and similar sounding words, but very different contexts. I never said there weren't links... but we have to take it in context and we have to understand what fits where and how it interacts. When the Vedics and related peoples were moving across asia towards India, they were not Hindus and Hinduism as it is now didn't exist. Neither did NeoPaganism as it exists now. They weren't really that remarkable because a lot of different cultures shared similar surface level beliefs at the time, diversifying later on. I mean that is the most common theory about religious migration and evolution.

There are some people who don't really accept the Indo-European hypothesis, apparently, there's evidence that contradicts a lot of the Indo-European theory (I can't say what as I've only picked that up from a Hellenic recon board, but, they seemed to know what they're talking about). Also, even if there was an Indo-European language, that refers to a shared common origin for language, not religion, each religion developed in different areas, and were influenced by different environmental, societal and political issues.

[♀♥Lady Urania♥♀]

I ask this question because I feel a bit of a interest in some Hindu deities. Vishnu, Shiva, Kali, etc.

However, I'm under the impression that it is pretty explicit in Hinduism that there is no conversion. That your born into it, not invited in, etc. There is a purification type ceremonies for those that converted to Islam/Christianity as an effort to get back to come back to their born faith, but there is no conversion process.

However, does this prohibit the worship of deities? Is that considered innapropriate??

I recently found this thread and read it through and was interested in the comments, esp having Hindu deities myself. I know its an older thread but I just recently arrived back and feel I missed out a bit. Just wanted to give my two cents.

While one could be 'born Hindu," esp in India, and the framework of this would be so, at the same time, what about past lives, and if the gods wanted it that way, for some of Hinduism to reach the east? Esp in the sixties, many people went to India to find 'enlightenment' when they wanted to get this, or find gurus, this was very big. I have a teacher who did this (not in the sixties though), which is part of the reason the gods came 'through' him to me. He has traveled there often and has now, I believe, roots there. However, roots are funny cause his companion on the travel felt that Kali, rejected her in the end, and was very hurt by this. It could be a culture thing, or could be just something 'known' or could be, just the way the goddess is. But she was in Kolkata at the time and right upon leaving, bit by mites on her big toe, and it is said that when Sati was cut to pieces by Vishnu, this body part landed there, and formed the land and temple. So anyway, upon blabbering on that, who is to say when the gods show, as they did with me, you are not to follow? I, in my case, was not in a position to reject Kali if I wanted to. Not that she forces to worship. That would not be an appropriate thing to say. But she shows, has her task, and doesnt leave til its accomplished. She always has the uppper hand and, pretty much, my own initiation into that 'world' is just that. She took my head, so now I am where Im at. And I dont think one needs to be well verses in all the great Hindu texts, the Upishadas, the Vedas, the Ramayana, et al, to encounter the gods.

But it does make me wonder if there must be, some connection with the land. My teacher did travel to India extensively, and had his own initiation 'there,' amongst other things, like getting ill and nearly dying, getting sick, various turmoils on the body. So the gods seem to put you through the paces before they will bestow any 'boons.' They're certainly precious and not to be toyed with. Now, I do understand the 'west mentality' and those trying to make them western deities, or recon deities, and this isnt advisable. However, at the same time, who is to say, that they dont show? I think of my own situation, knowing how they did show, wondering if it had past life connections (how do I not know I was in India in my last life? I cannot answer that, or I was a worshipper of Kali and she came back to claim me)? I think the best one can do is learn all that they can, if the gods do show, find out what they want, and give them respect, then they will show their intent.

[Sekhmet Soul30]

I like what everyone is saying, especially Toby, and I agree with what a lot of you are saying about not blending Wicca with Hinduism and so forth. I like Kali and I wouldn't dare pair her up with a non-Hindu deity, that wouldn't be right. I would get her consort and have them on my altar. That would be done out of respect for this fine culture and the people.

Their getting enough attempt to convert them away from Hinduism by other Christians and they don't need me to add insult to injury and disrespect them and their gods. I was trying to find proper incense to burn for Kali when the statue arrives in a few days but I don't know what to burn. The kind that's usually burn I can't find. My mother states that we must respect the Hindu gods and the people of this very fine culture.

[Sekhmet Soul30]

As a Westerner and initiate on Shakta Tantra, here is my perspective:

While I do think it's possible to incorporate the Hindu goddesses and gods into your personal practice, I believe there is a cultural sensitivity that needs to be observed. These gods are complex energy forms that have evolved for centuries with specific prayers, rituals, and symbols. At the same time, I also believe that the gods are fluid, they can adapt to change, to culture, etc and still remain true to their vibratory energy.
-J

I agree with what you've said RainHawk. I practice Hinduism now, something that I've been wanting to do for years, and you have to be sensitive about the culture and everything that's connected to it. You can't just take that Hindu gods and put them into a Wicca framework. I've seen this with other cultures, like Hellenism and Kemetic, and sometimes I wonder when it's ever going to stop.

I believe when you take a god or goddess of a different culture I think that you should read about that culture because what works for someone that respects the culture will not work for someone that doesn't. You may end up insulting the divine. Hindu Gods and Goddess aren't the same as the Celtic Gods and Goddess, Egyptian, Greek, and so on. Wiccans may believe that all Gods are the same God and all Goddess are the same Goddess but in the Hindu Pantheon their not.

All Hindu Gods and Goddess are actually God, the Supreme being, the one that created the Universe, the same God the Christians, Jews, and Muslims worship. One of the many Avatars, which is something new that has happened, is Jesus Christ. In the Hindu faith you must obey God, you must seek spiritual enlightenment, and you must spend time communing and meditating on God.

[Toby Stimpson]

All Hindu Gods and Goddess are actually God, the Supreme being, the one that created the Universe, the same God the Christians, Jews, and Muslims worship. One of the many Avatars, which is something new that has happened, is Jesus Christ. In the Hindu faith you must obey God, you must seek spiritual enlightenment, and you must spend time communing and meditating on God.

This is quite a blanket statement. Not all Hindus believe this, I certainly don't the same way you describe it. I think you have to be careful about things like this because in a way, if you look at your words, you're excusing Hinduism because it's just the same as Christianity, Islam and Judaism... which it isn't. Also, Jesus as Avatar was another way of making Hinduism more acceptable to westerners... and depending who you talk to any religious leader or group is merely an avatar of Vishnu (this is a politically motivated concept in order for a certain group within Hinduism to assimilate everything else). You likewse contradict yourself by stating this:


Wiccans may believe that all Gods are the same God and all Goddess are the same Goddess but in the Hindu Pantheon their not.

It again depends on what Hindu tradition you are focusing on. This is certainly true in the Shakta groups that believe all Goddesses are merely manifestations of the Goddess. As a beginner, you need to be careful about making statements like these.


I like what everyone is saying, especially Toby, and I agree with what a lot of you are saying about not blending Wicca with Hinduism and so forth. I like Kali and I wouldn't dare pair her up with a non-Hindu deity, that wouldn't be right. I would get her consort and have them on my altar. That would be done out of respect for this fine culture and the people.

You can't just do it based on respect for the culture and people, because in a way by doing this you are just reenacting Wiccan ideas of consorts and what not. If you paid Kali with Shiva, but don't pay any attention to Shiva and have him there just out of respect to 'this fine culture and people' it is a hollow act.



Their getting enough attempt to convert them away from Hinduism by other Christians and they don't need me to add insult to injury and disrespect them and their gods.

Christians trying to convert people in India and south Asia is not as big of an issue as you think it is. Hindus are not under attack, and there are enough of them to make sure of that.



I was trying to find proper incense to burn for Kali when the statue arrives in a few days but I don't know what to burn. The kind that's usually burn I can't find. My mother states that we must respect the Hindu gods and the people of this very fine culture.

Burning sandalwood is perfectly fine. :)

[el123]

I ask this question because I feel a bit of a interest in some Hindu deities. Vishnu, Shiva, Kali, etc.

However, I'm under the impression that it is pretty explicit in Hinduism that there is no conversion. That your born into it, not invited in, etc. There is a purification type ceremonies for those that converted to Islam/Christianity as an effort to get back to come back to their born faith, but there is no conversion process.

However, does this prohibit the worship of deities? Is that considered innapropriate??

Hinduism is not just about worshipping a few gods. Aryuvedha, Yoga, Vedic Astrology, chakras/auras, gem healing, the use of yanthra and manthra, kama sutra, bharathnatya... are just some of the many elements that come under the umbrella of hinduism. Hinduism is one of the oldest religions.
As a Buddhist born in SriLanka (Although I don't live here any more) & into Buddhism we share many of these belief systems with the Hindus - as did the Indians back in the time of the Buddha in approx 500BC. Buddhists & Hindus tend to have a mutual respect for each other as both believe in Karma and enlightenment. But both go about this in different ways.
Despite being welcomed into the many Hindu temples as a guest, there are still many things I don't know about.
Personally I feel that if someone is interested in any religion they should learn as much about it as possible.
The first thing I'd recommend is to give up eating beef. Then learn as much about the Hinduism as possible. If you wish to worship a god/goddess I would recommend you start with Ganesh.
I believe the use of yanthras and manthra is highly potent and would highly warn against it unless you really know what you are doing and have the right devotion. According to Vedic Astrology (which is calculated according to the exact time of your birth) there may be certain gods/goddesses you should worship. So un knowingly worshipping and saying manthras to another god may not necessarily be a good thing.
Hope this makes sense. Good luck.