Christian Apologetics.

[Belteshazzar]

I thought it might be good to start a thread on Christian Apologetics because I think it may clear up a few misunderstandings concerning my reasons for posting at MW. Before I do, I want to say something. I was not leaving the forum because I was upset with anyone. I was intending on leaving because these misunderstandings were not being resolved no matter what I said. I hope to clear-up some of these misunderstanings in this post-thread.

As Danustouch pointed out in the last thread, Christian Apologetics is the defense of the Christian Faith. Moreover, it is a "ministry" that all believers are called to, ...to a greater or lesser degree. In 1Peter 3:15 God has given Christians a charge to "always be prepared to give an "apologia" (verbal defense) ...to ANYONE who ask for the reason of the Hope you have". In ancient Greece, when you were on "trial" or being "accused", you would be permitted to give an "apologia" ...a verbal defense for your actions or your innocence. What Peter is saying is that we should always "be ready" to give a verbal defense as to "WHY" we believe,..."to anyone who ask a "reason". Now ...I don't want to get overtly complicated here, but is important to understand what is meant by "reason". The word translated "reason" is the Greek word "logos". Allow me to define it by John1:1 ....."In the beginning was the Word (logos), and the Word (logos) was with God, and the Word (logos) was God." ....John 1:14 ..."the Word (logos) became flesh and made His dwelling among us". This is why Christians believe that Jesus is both the "living Word" (before scripture) and the "written Word" (in scripture). A better way of putting it might be that Jesus is God's "manifestation of expression". In Colossians it says that "He (Jesus) is the exact representation of His (God) being". So the point I am driving at is ...a true Christian "apologia" is based on the Person of Christ, either in scripture or in demonstration and testimony.

The reason I put emphasis on "anyone" in the previous paragraph is because if I am to "be prepared" to give an "apologia" to "anyone", ....then I submitt that part of that "prepared-ness" is to learn to be understanding. For example, the reason I began posting here is because I have a co-worker and casual friend who is a Wiccan. And from time to time he will approach me and ask me a question in relation to Faith in Christ, and I am charged by God to be prepared to give him an "apologia" for the "reason of the hope I have". The problem is, sometimes I misinterpret the question due to a lack of understanding. So maybe now you can see why I challenged some of your answers, so that I might gain a better understanding. You see ...I already have a much better understanding of this person. I understand his questions and objections alot better now. (most of his questions are based on objections)

Understanding is the key.

Proverbs 17:27
He that hath knowledge spareth his words: and a man of understanding is of an excellent spirit.

I can see how easy it would be for one to misunderstand the intentions of my posts. Which leads me to the next topic ....evangelism. The word "evangelism" instantly puts a bad taste in the mouth of many people, and I understand that. Biblical evangelism is "nothing more" and "nothing less" than sharing the good news of Jesus Christ (Yeshua Moshiach) with those who have never heard, or shall I say, have never Truly heard. Anything "more" or anything "less" can be contrary to scripture. I live in the south, and I have literaly seen signs on the side of the road that say "repent or burn". That is not true evangelism. In my previous post I stated that my post were evangelistic, and I think that was immediately misunderstood to mean that I had an agenda to change and convert people. I simply meant that whenever I post in reference to Faith in Christ that it will most certianly "uplift" Jesus. To do otherwise, I would be contradicting my very person.

So in a nutshell, that is what Christian Apologetics is basically all about. It is most definately evangelistic in nature. There is always someone who thinks the idea is to "put down" the beliefs of others, and will do so. ...I can assure you it is not. That would be of absolutely no value to the cause of Christ ...don't you agree? The purpose of evangelism in Apologetics is to present Christ in a sincere and scriptural way, then it is up to the listener to decide. In my estimation, a good Apologetic will go and speak anywhere he/she is invited. My hero in this field is Dr. Ravi Zacharias, who hails from India and was raised Hindu. He was won to Christ on a bed of suicide, as a troubled teen. Now some 40 years later he is one of the most powerful and compassionate Christian speakers I know. By invatation, he has spoken in over 50 countires. He has lectured and spoken at most major Universities such as Harvard, Yale and many others. He was once invited by the Russian government to speak at the conference of geo-political stategey, as they sought to find a solution to Russia's ailing morale. In short, a Christian Apologist may likely be a professor/teacher, an author, public speaker, debater and even a Pastor, ...but always an Evangelist.

As matter of interest, I will be attending the 2002 Conference on Apologetics, and Dr, Zacharias is this years key note speaker. This conference is composed of sessions and teachings on various cultutres and groups in society. Some of the sessions I plan on attending are "Modern Judaism", "Paganism and Primitive Culture", "Pluralistc Society", "Ojectivity" and others. Maybe when I return, I can share what was taught on Paganism and see if they knew what they were talking about. :D

I am not attempting to reslove all our misunderstandings with one post, or even one thread. There are many things that we need to be satisfied to disagree on, but I just pray that our disagreements be based on "understanding" and not ignorance. In time and opportunity, I hope to address some other issues that have not been dealt with here. I was blown away by the wisdom of Semele's post with which she closed the "questions" thread. She expressed the point I was making far better than I did. I think she and I have reached that level of "disagree-able understanding" that I hope to have with everyone here.

One final thought, sometimes people wonder why Jesus taught us to love our enemies and nieghbors ....and later said "don't think that I have come to bring peace, but rather a sword". IMHO ....on ocassion, Jesus intentionly makes statements, ...that appear to be in conflict with His teaching, ...when actually, if we follow the crumbs, ...it leads a greater understanding of the reality of His teachings. The point being, anyone who tries to sincerely follow Christ's teaching will enter into conflict. Plain and simple. "Blessed are the peacemakers" .....but before they "make peace", they will endure conflict and spiritual warfare. It is unavoidable. However, ...Jesus was crystal clear concerning the conduct that He expects from His followers, and it is non-negotiable. So please, when I fall short, credit it to my account, and not His. (for He has settled my account already) ;)

sincerely,

shaz

BTW ...for anyone interested, I am considering a post in "Just Talk", where I would share some background on myself. The info might surprise you. I would also invite others to share their background as they so desire. The purpose would be to gain a better understanding of each other as people and individuals.

[Illuminatus]

I know all about Apologetix.

Link is not for the weak of heart or young children.

http://www.apologetix.com/

edit: Ah, crap, they took the samples off their site. Too bad, they were hilarious in a terrrible, horrid way. Apologetix, you see, is a Christian band that touts itself as the Christian Weird Al Yankovic. If you're a glutton for punishment, I see that some of their tracks are on KaZaA right now, they're funny in a sad, bizarre, kitchy way. You know, like movies that are so bad they roll back over to good?

[Belteshazzar]

Originally posted by Illuminatus
edit: Ah, crap, they took the samples off their site. Too bad, they were hilarious in a terrrible, horrid way. Apologetix, you see, is a Christian band that touts itself as the Christian Weird Al Yankovic. If you're a glutton for punishment, I see that some of their tracks are on KaZaA right now, they're funny in a sad, bizarre, kitchy way. You know, like movies that are so bad they roll back over to good?

Illum-,

I see what you mean ...I don't know if I wanna laugh or cry.

It just goes to show you what lengths some people will go to when they think there is a few bucks in it. Paul wasn't joking when he said the love of money is the root of all evil. :D

shaz

edit: It makes me wonder if this isn't the unpardonable sin. Peddlers of this kind of stuff often justify it as "edification" material. ....Now that's funny.

[mol]

Welcome back, Bel. I just want to say that your first post in this thread has cleared up a lot of my questions that I had concerning what you wanted from this place. This Community is based on understanding and the ability to accept another Path whatever it may be.

Semele and I founded this place with one simple piece of knowledge in mind. That is: "Everyone's Path is the Truth. If you Know it in Your heart, then how could it not Be?"

I look forward to learning more from you. My Path is probably the strangest one in this Community. It is not based on any one religion at all. It can be hard to explain it actually, but I do draw influences from a varied sort if individuals from opposite ends of the spectrum. From Crowley to Jesus and from Buddha to LeVay. You see, to me, the 'person' and flesh of these people are insignificant.

The teachings of these individuals is the Sword.

Anyway, welcome back and I look forward to reading more of your posts.

[FLipsiDE]

Very nice Belteshazzar!

An excellent statement (or two). I have a friend on another board who is a Christian (with some odd pagan leanings) and the description you provided is excellent... and I agree. Verbal assault serves nothing but to alienate and drive people away from your belief's. (Rev. Phelps, pay attention here ok?) At the same time, a person whith a devout belief cannot be expected to divorce himself from that belief while talking on the subject, just to be PC or more accepted. Not and be honest with himself and others.

A sincerly held belief has nothing to fear and everything to gain from questioning or being honestly talked about.

It's a pleasure to meet you. :)

[mol]

And I would add that it is not a contradiction to Hold the 'beliefs' one might have and acknowledge the Truth of anothers. One persons Truth may be another falsehood, but it doesnt make it any less True.

Did you follow?

;)

[Kaylara]

*nod*

[Belteshazzar]

flipside,

The pleasure is all mine!

It seems that at a minimum, we share the same philosophical views. While I enjoy talking theology and philosophy with folks of a different worldview than mine, it is also nice to have someone around whose views are similar to my own.

Welcome to the discussion.



mol,

Thanks for the warm welcome.

You said "One persons Truth may be another falsehood, but it doesnt make it any less True."

For me that would depend on what exactly is meant by truth. For example, ...."Jimi Hendrix was the greatest guitarist who ever lived" ...true or false? ......Well, ...that would be up to the individual. So in that respect, I can agree with what your saying. But if you told me your wife was pregnant ....and then she says she is not pegnant ....then one of those statement is false, and the other is true, reguardless of what either of believes about that situation.

To a point, much of my world view is based on the "law of non-contradiction" ....which I think has been abandoned in postmodern society. (philosophically)

But as far as evangelism goes, ...what is important to me is that people get the straight scoop ...after that ....if someone says they are not interested in Christ ....then what else is there to say?

So when it comes to Christ and the sciptures, I will always do everything I can to at least resolve any misunderstandings someone may have. However, some people's eggs just can't be unscrambled ....in this case, I will usually let the argument go.

Have a great weekend everyone.

shaz

[mol]

Originally posted by Belteshazzar

You said "One persons Truth may be another falsehood, but it doesnt make it any less True."

For me that would depend on what exactly is meant by truth. For example, ...."Jimi Hendrix was the greatest guitarist who ever lived" ...true or false? ......Well, ...that would be up to the individual. So in that respect, I can agree with what your saying. But if you told me your wife was pregnant ....and then she says she is not pegnant ....then one of those statement is false, and the other is true, reguardless of what either of believes about that situation.

I understand your point. It is up to the individual which is what I was pointing out, in a roundabout way. You see, I dont see Jimi as the greatest guitar player ever. So that would be false. However, if I said Semele was pregnant and Knew it to be True (for whatever reason) and Semele said she was not. The it would be false...to her. And maybe to you, if you choose to Know that as Truth.

:)

[Belteshazzar]

mol,

I don't see Jimi as *the* greatest either. I rarely see an individual as the greatest "____" there ever was. But I might say that I think Jimi was one of the greats.

Anyway, I just rememdered a story I read about Jimi once that is ironically related to this discussion. (maybe you have heard it before) Jimi was doing some solo stuff during a show once where he would momentarily stop and listen to the crowd roar ...then he would do some more and stop again. During this time, some guy in the front row kept pointing at him saying "you are the truth man...you are the truth". So Jimi caught a bit of what he said and stopped to ask him what he said. Again the guy said "you are the truth man!" ...Then Jimi ...shocked by this statement replied "the truth?!" ..."man, I don't even know what the truth is ......and you think I am the truth?!"

It would appear that this guy worshiped the "Hendrix image". But ironically, the idol he worshiped was himself in search of truth. I say this because at that, Jimi literaly stopped the show and began to ramble about his confusion in respect to all that is called truth. The article said he did this for about 10 minutes before he got back to playing again.

I thought you might find that interesting. BTW ...who is the greatest guitarist ever? Tell me the truth. ;)

shaz

[MasterMoon]

I see that the search for God and meaning in life is alive and well here.

My only question is this...when you figure it all out and you have all the answers you seek, what will you DO with it all?

Or is it all an exchange of air and emotion ?

It (all this talk and philosophy) seems to be a way to create emotion. Like joy or a blissfull state. Or even a strong ego, because someone has all the answers.

Answers to what though ?
All this is made up in the first place.
Since the things you speak of are imaginary by nature,
(faith, hope etc is imaginary) then any supportive arguments are also imaginary.
All im saying is that none of amounts to anything of substance.
My opinion is that all that matters (mentally, spiritually) is ATTITUDE.
All religion - (again my opinion) is only for that purpose.

Time to work!

[mol]

Originally posted by MasterMoon

My only question is this...when you figure it all out and you have all the answers you seek, what will you DO with it all?

Rest.

[mol]

Originally posted by Belteshazzar


I thought you might find that interesting. BTW ...who is the greatest guitarist ever? Tell me the truth. ;)

shaz

Great story! And, no...Ive never heard that one. As for the greatest guitarist ever. Well, that would be Randy Rhoads, my friend. And THAT is the Truth. :p

[Belteshazzar]

greetings MasterMoon and welcome to the discussion!


Originally posted by MasterMoon
My only question is this...when you figure it all out and you have all the answers you seek, what will you DO with it all?
Simple, you share it with others who are "seeking", "asking" and "knocking" for those answers. Christian evangelism is really just one beggar, telling another beggar where he found "bread". Is it any wonder that Jesus calls Himself the "bread of life"?


Or is it all an exchange of air and emotion ?
I think that depends on the spiritual condition of the contributor.


Answers to what though ?
All this is made up in the first place.
Good point. That is why I always ask people what the "basis" is for their theology and philosophy. If their basis is their own opinion or imagination, then the validity may be questionable. However, if the basis for belief is on "X", then we have something to "test" and observe.


Since the things you speak of are imaginary by nature,
(faith, hope etc is imaginary) then any supportive arguments are also imaginary.
First, by what premise can you show that "faith and hope" is imaginary?

Secondly, if you have no premise to show this, are you not arguing based on your own "imagination"?

See the difficulty with your statement?


All im saying is that none of amounts to anything of substance.
My opinion is that all that matters (mentally, spiritually) is ATTITUDE.

Yes, I agree.

However, the problem is that many argue over what the "right" attitude is. That is were different world views conflict and contradict.

Thanks for your interesting comments.

shaz

[Belteshazzar]

Originally posted by mol
Well, that would be Randy Rhoads, my friend. And THAT is the Truth. :p

mol,

I can live with that. :D

However, if you had said Yngvai Malmsteen (I know the spelling is bad) ...then we would have had something to argue about. :p

Someone got really ticked at me once because I told him that putting a guitar in Yngvai's hands was like giving a squirt gun to a toddler. (it gets a little annoying after a while) But of course, he is better than I am ...so what do I know.

shaz

[mol]

Originally posted by Belteshazzar

Good point. That is why I always ask people what the "basis" is for their theology and philosophy. If their basis is their own opinion, then the validity may be questionable. However, if the basis for belief is on "X", then we have something to "test" and observe.


Test and observe? That sounds scientific?

But, how can you test anything that is contained in my head without jumping into it?

The validity to the individual is never questionable.

Otherwise, we would all be wrong.

[Raevyn]

Originally posted by mol
Otherwise, we would all be wrong.

Who says we aren't..?

[mol]

Originally posted by Raevyn
Who says we aren't..?

I say.

:)

Edited to say: Well, at least, Im not. :p

[mol]

Originally posted by Belteshazzar
mol,

I can live with that. :D

However, if you had said Yngvai Malmsteen (I know the spelling is bad) ...then we would have had something to argue about. :p

Someone got really ticked at me once because I told him that putting a guitar in Yngvai's hands was like giving a squirt gun to a toddler. (it gets a little annoying after a while) But of course, he is better than I am ...so what do I know.

shaz

Yngwie is well...Yngwie. Actually, youre comparison is the best Ive ever heard.

Speed should never be confused with talent.

[Raevyn]

Originally posted by mol
I say.

And so it's reality?

Actually I'm not just trying to be facetious. It has occurred to me that no one is right at all. I spent a few months thinking it was all "air and emotions" as mm would say, and still not sure it isn't. It's funny how everything you thought you knew can go "SpLat!".

Nothing is true, everything is permitted :)

[mol]

Originally posted by Raevyn
And so it's reality?


My reality differs greatly from most. :) And I not trying to be totally facetious either.


It has occurred to me that no one is right at all. I spent a few months thinking it was all "air and emotions" as mm would say, and still not sure it isn't. It's funny how everything you thought you knew can go "SpLat!".

Nothing is true, everything is permitted :)

We differ on this. Permission denotes someone 'granting you the ability to Know or for others to Believe or to have Faith'. No one, thing, or being has that ability.

No one could ever change the Truth I see, not even myself.

[Raevyn]

The line isn't about giving out permission to *others* at all, imho.

It's a personal maxim, not one I feel is applied to others. Obviously my feeling nothing is true (that is, objectively true, reality, not subjectively) doesn't affect your belief (which is subjective anyway). But then your subjective truth doesn't affect my subjective truth or the objective truth either (ie. whether I can change your subjective truth doesn't matter, and doesn't affect whether nothing is true or not).

Oops, think I derailed the thread.

[Semele]

Originally posted by Belteshazzar

It would appear that this guy worshiped the "Hendrix image". But ironically, the idol he worshiped was himself in search of truth.

I think this happens a lot more than we will ever know. In fact, I would dare say a lot of charasmatic, talented, and excited individuals have began on a journey and felt so enraptured with the newfound joys and illuminations their journey has broguht, that they naturally pick up followers of thier own. These followers see the joy and light and yearn for it themselves. The problem arises when, as a new, immature infant beginning on a path we have little reserve to share with others and stay focused at the same time, even though we want more than anything to share the joys we feel. I think of a small child who is learning to take his first steps. He is so excited when he can finally let go of the couch or table and venture off on his own to take those first steps. The parents and others around get so excited and proud they clap and get excited and encourage the child to come to them. The child smiles and is obviously very happy and wants to share that with mom and dad, but when trying to get to them he loses his balance and falls.

Sometimes, I think, as a person gets recognition for following a spiritual path and they begin to get "students" who want to learn from them, they switch gears to that of a teacher and often put so much effort into it that they can lose sight of the lessons they were trying to learn themselves. Although they start with the best intentions, they end up failing or totally losing sight of the end picture. What keeps them going is thier ability to speak eloquently and with such compassion and authority. Others naturally flock to them. I believe this could be the case with a lot of the people we consider monsters, such as David Koresh and Jim Jones. Maybe they started off with a completely sincere approach to God and they were in that initial "high" phase, much like when we first all in love, and people began to try to draw on that. We only hear of the times after it got so far out of hand and the leaders have long since turned into something else. I tend to believe this more than the idea that these people were born with horrible thoughts of hurting others. I think to get the number of followers they have, they had to initially have some sincere light shining out and calling others like a beacon.

I think the true challenge becomes to try and share our love and joy with others while keeping the constant channel open to keep recieving that love and joy and knowledge. Instead of saying, "Yes I will teach you eveything I know to be true so that you can get to where I am", let us say, "I am on a journey and I feel I am on the right journey for me, yours may be different but you can get there. Lets hold hands and journey together." This is my biggest goal for MW as a community.

I think this is very similar to Shaz' beggar theory...let's try to show each other where we found bread, but also keep in mind that if they keep thier eyes open for themselves as well, they may find cake..and in turn share with us.

On the greatest guitar player subject... I had to laugh out loud because I knew in my heart that mol would say Malmsteen, because he has said those exact words to me!!! That was early in our marriage, so my question to you, dear husband....what has changed? Is he no longer the world's greatest or has your idea of the world's greatest changed? I could see it if maybe his older stuff was still something you considered the greatest, but his newer stuff is not as good. However, I don't think that is what you are saying at all...also I don't think it is a case where he used to be the best and then a better one came along, because Randy was already dead at the time you told me Malmsteen was the man!!

Is it possible that our truths can change? If so does that still fit in with your theory of black and white, ones and zeros??

Maybe a new thread is in order for mol to tell us all about his fascinating binary theory. I have never personally understood it...maybe we could all learn it together, if he is willing to attempt to expalin it to us.

[mol]

Originally posted by Raevyn
The line isn't about giving out permission to *others* at all, imho.

It's a personal maxim, not one I feel is applied to others. Obviously my feeling nothing is true (that is, objectively true, reality, not subjectively) doesn't affect your belief (which is subjective anyway). But then your subjective truth doesn't affect my subjective truth or the objective truth either (ie. whether I can change your subjective truth doesn't matter, and doesn't affect whether nothing is true or not).

Oops, think I derailed the thread.

Look out for that Tree!

:p

[mol]

Originally posted by Semele
On the greatest guitar player subject... I had to laugh out loud because I knew in my heart that mol would say Malmsteen, because he has said those exact words to me!!! That was early in our marriage, so my question to you, dear husband....what has changed? Is he no longer the world's greatest or has your idea of the world's greatest changed? I could see it if maybe his older stuff was still something you considered the greatest, but his newer stuff is not as good. However, I don't think that is what you are saying at all...also I don't think it is a case where he used to be the best and then a better one came along, because Randy was already dead at the time you told me Malmsteen was the man!!

Is it possible that our truths can change? If so does that still fit in with your theory of black and white, ones and zeros??

Maybe a new thread is in order for mol to tell us all about his fascinating binary theory. I have never personally understood it...maybe we could all learn it together, if he is willing to attempt to expalin it to us.

Ah, but notice what else I said. Never mistake speed for talent. Perhaps I should elaborate. The definition of greatest guitarist has changed for me a bit, yes. (And yes, that fits into what I Know to be True. Its all switches) I use to view that question as meaning...who is the most technical and has the most speed. That would be Yngwie! Hands down. Period. But, now that question has taken a turn for me. Now it asks, who is the most techinical and has the most speed, combined with feeling and energy. The answer to that is Randy Rhoads. So, you see...my answer never changed.

The question did.

[Semele]

Originally posted by mol
So, you see...my answer never changed.

The question did.

Hmmmmm, I think you are changing the question to fit your answers. Reading more into the question maybe? Either way, it brings up a good point, which is interpretation. Everyone can interpret something to mean entirely different things to them.

How do we know when someone is answering a question we ask, that they are even hearing the question we are asking, rather than something entirely different?

Dang, now I have a headache....I am going to take a nap with your ugly dog and ponder this some more.

[mol]

Originally posted by Semele
Hmmmmm, I think you are changing the question to fit your answers. Reading more into the question maybe? Either way, it brings up a good point, which is interpretation. Everyone can interpret something to mean entirely different things to them.

How do we know when someone is answering a question we ask, that they are even hearing the question we are asking, rather than something entirely different?

Dang, now I have a headache....I am going to take a nap with your ugly dog and ponder this some more.

I cant change the question. I didnt ask it. I can only change my definition or interpretation of the question. (like you said)

That is why my original answer to Shaz's question holds True.

If I told Shaz you are pregnant and you say I am not. Then neither of us are actually wrong if I Know my answer to be Truth and you do as well.

And away we go:

Semele's answer = 0000
Mine = 0001

Its all in the individuals view of Truth. And if that individual Knows that Truth to be so, then it cannot be changed.


(Oh, and nice try, creep. :))

[Belteshazzar]

Originally posted by mol
Test and observe? That sounds scientific?
Well, if we plan on engaging our minds into the spiritual decisiions we make, then in some fashion we are -observing/testing.

Like this "binary theory" Semele spoke of. How can I possibly consider it unless you first present it? (X) ...once it is presented, then we can use both our minds and spirit to discern the validity of it for ourselves.

As for my faith, the sciptures say to "test the spirits to see if they are from God" (1John) ...and "test all things, hold fast to what is good" ...so testing and observation is very much apart of the Christian walk.


But, how can you test anything that is contained in my head without jumping into it?
Well ..I can't. Therefore, until you demonstrate or present the basis for what is in your head, I have nothing reason with.


The validity to the individual is never questionable.
How do you know if an individual truly believes that which he claims as truth?


Otherwise, we would all be wrong.
In the "absolute sense", we all are wrong.

I personally believe the scriptures to be the inspired infalliable Word of God. However, I believe that all doctrines-denominations within Christianity have a "certian" amount of error in them due to interpretation ...to greater and lesser degrees.

shaz

[Belteshazzar]

Originally posted by mol
No one could ever change the Truth I see, not even myself.

mol ....exactly!

So if truth does not change ...(and it does not) ...then how can eveyone have truth, when probably over 90% of folks will have a different set of truths by this time next year?

Seriously ...if truth changes ...then it is something else besides "Truth" ...like laws, opinions, traditions, philosophies, religions, etc.

Hey ...is everyone off on Fridays?

shaz

[mol]

Originally posted by Belteshazzar

Like this "binary theory" Semele spoke of. How can I possibly consider it unless you first present it? (X) ...once it is presented, then we can use both our minds and spirit to discern the validity of it for ourselves.


:)

I never asked anyone to consider. In fact, I ask most people not to consider it. And this may sound awful when I say it (but it is just because it is typed and not me saying it) but I never asked for anyone's validation. I can, at some point, start another thread to discuss it.



As for my faith, the sciptures say to "test the spirits to see if they are from God" (1John) ...and "test all things, hold fast to what is good" ...so testing and observation is very much apart of the Christian walk.


Actually I have always considered: "Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world." 1 John 4:1

Concepts, Paths, etc are not spirits. And after all:

"Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you." Deuteronomy 4:2

If it is not from the Bible, then of what value is it to you, as far as Your Path is concerned? I would consider this would be why you would want to talk of apologetics and not the validity of my Path which would have no relevance.



Well ..I can't. Therefore, until you demonstrate or present the basis for what is in your head, I have nothing reason with.


Again, I never asked for you to reason with it. I was merely putting my comments in. :)



How do you know if an individual truly believes that which he claims as truth?


That is for the individual that speaks of his/her Truth. This personal Truth can not change mine.

[mol]

Originally posted by Belteshazzar
mol ....exactly!

So if truth does not change ...(and it does not) ...then how can eveyone have truth, when probably over 90% of folks will have a different set of truths by this time next year?


Personal Truth's can evolve. And sometimes the meanings of questions change, just like I explained above. Of course, all of this I say to you is relative...to me.



Hey ...is everyone off on Fridays?

shaz

Nope. Im at work. And just goofing off. :p

[Semele]

Originally posted by Belteshazzar


I personally believe the scriptures to be the inspired infalliable Word of God. However, I believe that all doctrines-denominations within Christianity have a "certian" amount of error in them due to interpretation ...to greater and lesser degrees.

But the scriptures were written down by someone other than Jesus, correct? His disciples and such? I am sure they took the time and energy to write these down because they were truly inspired and because God wanted them to, and that they tried as hard as they could to get the TRUTH down on paper...or stone??? However could thier interpretation of the scriptures affect the wording or the true message of the scriptures? I think we certainly agree on the room for eror in the actual interpretation of the words themselves, but I am wondering if there could be a los from the mouth of Christ to the ears and hearts and then pen/sword of those keeping the books so to speak.

I am not saying, necessarily that I think this possibility could greatly change the intended message, but perhaps make it slightly more confusing. Any thoughts?

As for everyone being off on Friday...well I am off for quite a while now. I am to be at home resting until this kid comes home. So look out! Yeah, I am pregnant and that is the TRUTH!

[mol]

Originally posted by Semele
Yeah, I am pregnant and that is the TRUTH!

See, I told you so, Shaz.

[Belteshazzar]

Originally posted by Semele
I believe this could be the case with a lot of the people we consider monsters, such as David Koresh and Jim Jones. Maybe they started off with a completely sincere approach to God and they were in that initial "high" phase, much like when we first all in love, and people began to try to draw on that.

hey Semele ...you really have me thinking. I just wish I had more time to contribute.

Here is what I think, for the "what its worth" dept.

Based on what I have read of their backgrounds, I believe that both David Koresh and Jim Jones ultimately did what they did because their motives were wrong from the beginning.

I find it difficult to believe that these men were motivated by God, and somehow wandered down a wicked path. I would say that they were on that path all along, it just took time to get to where they ended up. Most peope who have certian issues, did not begin at the level they are at now. It was a step by step process of wrong-headed decision making that carried them so far down the wrong path.

I guess that is why I have a hard time believing that all paths lead to the same place, or are "right". If I did ...then I would have to conclude that Hitler ans Stalin was on the right path, or a path that was "right for them". Now ...we can observe their lives after the fact and see the wrong-headed-ness of it all. But I submitt to you that if we met them when they first began their journey, we could have easily said that they were "intellectual", ...or who is to say what is "right for them"?

The point I am getting at is, ...it is easy to say "I am on the right path" ...early in one's journey. That is why I believe it is important to examine ones' basis before choosing that path. Both Hitler and Stalin were influenced by Fredderick Nietzche ....who was an atheistic philosopher of the 1800's. Therefore, Hitler and Stalin became indoctrinated with the belief that there was probably not a God who governed human affairs, or could ever hold them accountable for the actions, so consequestly, they murdered over 50 million people in an effort to make a "god" out of themselves. And if you ever read "parable of a madman" by Nietzche ...you know that Nietzche predicted that if man ever believed that "God was dead", then man himself would assume the awesome responsibilty to replace God.

However, God always rises up to out live His pallbearers.

shaz

[mol]

I got a question for you Bel.

Obviously there is a lot you can learn from MW and the people here. Nothing that could really be applied to your Path, but knowledge in general. Now, with that in mind. What exactly would be the purpose of this information?

What I mean by that question is this. In the event you are doing some ministry in a prison, or other area, and someone came up to you asking questions about various forms of Paganism...would you use this information to tell them about Paganism and how these various Path's believe or would you use this information and find scriptures to refute these various beliefs in hopes of steering this person to Christianity.

I ask this for a personal reason only. You see, I Know that people should never be 'steered' into anything. If a question is asked it should be answered, but the very thought of leading someone into something, converting, etc is horrid to me. People need the chance to make their own decisions. A lot of times, I see people who just never had that choice.

And a choice...well, thats all we ever really have that seperates us from other Entities.

[Belteshazzar]

Originally posted by mol
I never asked anyone to consider. In fact, I ask most people not to consider it.

mol,

Please don't misunderstand me. I was just using your "binary theory" as an object lesson in respects to the subject matter of MasterMoon's post.

My point simply was, I cannot consider any theory of path unless something or someone defines it's basis.


Actually I have always considered: "Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world." 1 John 4:1

Concepts, Paths, etc are not spirits. And after all:

"Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you." Deuteronomy 4:2

If it is not from the Bible, then of what value is it to you, as far as Your Path is concerned? I would consider this would be why you would want to talk of apologetics and not the validity of my Path which would have no relevance.

This is an excellent point.

The answer is that the bible does not deal "specifically" with every problem that man encounters. Therefore the bible uses principals that can be applied in every situation. So it is a matter of understanding the principals, which usely requires some research and word study to properly relate to the context that it was originally written in. That is why God calls some men/women to be teachers and counselors ....so they can stand in the gap for others.

An good example might be the Proverbs ...one proverb says " a kind word turns away wrath" ....but we know that is not always true, but in most cases it will be. That is a "principlal truth" because it has an undeterminable variable.

So to answer your question, if I believe that God did indeed inspire the the bible ...that it is His word to man ...then consequently I will search the scriptures for the answers I need to contemporary questions. Because new news is just old news happening to knew people" :D

Am I communicating well?

shaz

[mol]

Originally posted by Belteshazzar

Am I communicating well?

shaz

Absolutely!

[Belteshazzar]

Originally posted by mol
What I mean by that question is this. In the event you are doing some ministry in a prison, or other area, and someone came up to you asking questions about various forms of Paganism...would you use this information to tell them about Paganism and how these various Path's believe or would you use this information and find scriptures to refute these various beliefs in hopes of steering this person to Christianity.

mol,

In the "questions" thread, Danustouch asked me that question ...which in turn introduced Apologetics into the discussion.

I tired to elaborate on that question in the opening of this thread.

So allow me to answer it again in the prison ministry concept.

When I visit prisons or am involved with prison services, the topic of other paths or religions never come up. I simply am there to present Jesus Christ in a real and sincere way. My passion is to offer hope to someone who is spiritually bankrupt.

If someone says "I don't believe in Jesus because I am a Pagan" ...then there is not much to say. But if someone who has a Pagan background ask me questions in relation or objection to Christianity, then if I understand there background better, I may likely understand their objection and questions better. By this, I will have the knowledge and understanding to present Christ "in a way" that the person I am talking to can understand.

It is all about relationships. If you understand where a person is coming from ....you can communicate and relate to them more intimately. If you have been in their shoes ...that's even better.

But the goal is not to talk someone into Christianity ...but to be understanding enough to know how to answer. So to answer your question, the objective in evangelism is not to compare paths ...but to lift up Christ as I stated earlier.

Remember the verse ...."blessed are the poor in spirit"? Well, the reason Jesus said that is because one has to be spiritually bankrupt before he can really accept Christ as Lord and Savior. ...There are a number of spiritually bankrupt people behind bars ....I don't find them ...God does. I simply enjoy the priviledge of being a "vessel" to share the good news with those who desperately need it and are willing to recieve it.

I was there once, (spiritually bankrupt) so I know.

shaz

[Raevyn]

Originally posted by Belteshazzar
Hey ...is everyone off on Fridays?

I haven't had a chance to read the rest of the posts yet - but yes I have whatever day of the week I want off ;) Yay me!


So if truth does not change ...(and it does not) ...then how can eveyone have truth, when probably over 90% of folks will have a different set of truths by this time next year?

This is kind of what I'm getting at - in the other thread where I mentioned theoretical physics and carp and idea was put forth that it's impossible to view the universe in a perfectly objective way, even if we discard our beliefs and interpretations, because we are *part* of the universe. We can't describe the entirity of the universe from our little carp pond, or at least if we can we can't be sure we do.

So, there might be an objective truth, a reality beyond perception, but I don't think it's possible for us to know it.

[Demeter]

Just to put in my 2 cents ... I just finished reading "When Religion Becomes Evil" by Charles Kimball (a Baptist minister, expert on the Middle East, and chair of the department of religion at Wake Forest University). Fabulous book! Truly thought-provoking. Has a very good section on Koresh and Jones.

The last chapter is particularly interesting.

[MasterMoon]

Originally posted by MasterMoon

My only question is this...when you figure it all out and you have all the answers you seek, what will you DO with it all?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Rest.

Mol, I meant what do you do WITH it not what do you do after you have it....

[MasterMoon]

quoth mastermoon:
My only question is this...when you figure it all out and you have all the answers you seek, what will you DO with it all?

quoth Shaz:
Simple, you share it with others who are "seeking", "asking" and "knocking" for those answers. Christian evangelism is really just one beggar, telling another beggar where he found "bread". Is it any wonder that Jesus calls Himself the "bread of life"?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Reply by mastermoon What if the "others" cannot hear you?


quoth mastermoon:
Or is it all an exchange of air and emotion ?

quoth Shaz:
I think that depends on the spiritual condition of the contributor.


Reply by mastermoon. So, your saying that if someone is what you call a advanced spiritual person, that what they have to say is any more important than anyone else?


quoth Shaz:
First, by what premise can you show that "faith and hope" is imaginary?


Simple I have no premise to show this..the burden is on you..you are the one with faith...can you give me a pound please?
Faith as a word means a mental state. It is all in the mind. Thats how I know it is imaginary. Therefore it is not real....Nor is anything I say...

[Belteshazzar]

greetings Moon!


Originally posted by MasterMoon
Reply by mastermoon What if the "others" cannot hear you?
What an excelent question!

Actually the bible says that "naturally" man is blind and deaf to spiritual truth. All the physical healings that Jesus did, were nothing more than object lessons with spiritual parallels. (I wish I had time right now to show you an example)

The point is, only God can open they eyes of the blind and cause the deaf to hear in the spiritual sense. He can also clease the lepers and make the lame walk again. :D So pay attention everyone: I cannot do these things. Only God can covert the soul.


Reply by mastermoon. So, your saying that if someone is what you call a advanced spiritual person, that what they have to say is any more important than anyone else?
No ...I think you are reading that into it.

Here is my official reply:
I think what everyone has to say is important. I just personally don't believe that everything that is said is equally true, though most beliefs contain truths in them. That is what makes these discussions so interesting. :)


Faith as a word means a mental state. It is all in the mind. Thats how I know it is imaginary. Therefore it is not real....Nor is anything I say... :)

Moon ...hold that thought. I don't have time to give a proper response.

Semele ...I haven't forgot your question either. I just haven't found the time to get to it.

I have a long day today, but I will try to get back on late tonite.

shaz

[Semele]

Originally posted by MasterMoon
Faith as a word means a mental state. It is all in the mind. Thats how I know it is imaginary. Therefore it is not real....Nor is anything I say...

In my experience mental states are very powerful. I can use my "mental state" to cause things to happen. I am using will, which stems from my own mind and concentration. These things I know are all powerful, even if imaginary.

I am not arguing with you that much of everything we see and think and feel could be imaginary, but what is the problem with such an idea? Does it make it any less real to us, if we percieve it to be so and are fulfilled by it?

Imaginary or imagination are not negative words in my opinion. I think it is the best word I can teach my children, because if you can imagine it...it can be so. You may doubt that or even know it to be false, yet I know it to be true. So, in essence, I can imagine what I want or need and get there while you may sit and say, "ah who needs it, it is all in the head anyway?"

But, does that make you any less fulfilled than I? Only if you see it that way.

[amberlaine]

Semele, get yo bitch ass off the computer and go lay down!

[MasterMoon]

I never once said imagination wasnt usefull.
Lets just get straight on the terms, real and imaginary.
Does it scare you when I say faith, hope, love, hate etc are all figments of your imagination?
If so why?
I know that imagination is powerful and usefull. But it is not reality. In any way shape or form.
People that often confuse the difference between real and imaginary are those that think they can fly off a building, try it and...well you know the rest.

Bottom line...you can imagine your are king of the world, and in your mind you are. But only in your mind. Yes you can "create" things out of imagination. But that is only because you let the thoughts guide your ACTIONS. Actions are real.
So we can say this and say that...but its all just plain ole talk...it would do the same job if we all just grunted and groaned.
Maybe more...
Want to save the world? Forget it..it doesnt need your help.
Want to save another person? They dont want it either. You cannot help them.
Everything you can think of ..everything..is not yours..they are all second hand thoughts passed down from parents to children, from one person to another.
There is no salvation.
There is no enlightenment
There is no god.
There is no christ
All there is ..is the fear..the fear inside of you. That is what motivates every single one of your actions. At least that's my opinion. Of course, this entire post is opinion. Since none of it's real.
TTYL

[Semele]

Originally posted by MasterMoon

Does it scare you when I say faith, hope, love, hate etc are all figments of your imagination?
If so why?


Nope..not me. Nothing you say scares me. It intrigues me, because I am wondering if you actually believe this or if you just find it fun to see peoples reactions.


Originally posted by MasterMoon

People that often confuse the difference between real and imaginary are those that think they can fly off a building, try it and...well you know the rest.


I assure you I will not be flying off any buildings any time soon. :P


Originally posted by MasterMoon

But that is only because you let the thoughts guide your ACTIONS. Actions are real.


I agree with you here, but do have a question for you. If you think nothing is real...no God, Love, hate..etc..then what ACTIONS do your thoughts inspire?


Originally posted by MasterMoon


Want to save the world? Forget it..it doesnt need your help.
Want to save another person? They dont want it either. You cannot help them.


I disagree. No, one person cannot "save" the world in a literal sense. However, we can help our fellow man along with kindness sometimes. People do often want help and strangely enough they don't come right out and ask for it, but are still grateful when it presents itself. I am not saying I can save anyone, but I can help them get to a place where they can help themselves.


Originally posted by MasterMoon

There is no salvation.
There is no enlightenment
There is no god.
There is no christ


Well, no offense, but if I believed that I probably would jump off a building. Not out of fear mind you but out of the sheer need to rid myself of such negativity. After all, what point is there to existing in a world we don't believe exists? What point is there to us establishing relationships with others if we don't believe in love or pain. Chances are that they do and that they feel these emotions in a very real sense. Lucky for you, there is no such thing..but what of the others you encounter?


Originally posted by MasterMoon

All there is ..is the fear..the fear inside of you. That is what motivates every single one of your actions.

As I stated above, I am not afraid, but I am motivated...are you?

[Semele]

Originally posted by amberlaine
Semele, get yo bitch ass off the computer and go lay down!

Hey! Leave me alone! At least I am not laying carpet.

[Gwion]

"Apology Accepted, Admiral." (thud)~Darth Vader

[Belteshazzar]

Moon,

I almost don't want to reply because I think Semele has answered your objections quite well. ..but I did say "almost" ..didn't I. ;)

In a nutshell, it seems to me that you are just "down on" things you are not "up on".

In respect to faith, ....would you call gravity imaginary? Do you not honor the law of gravity by not jumping off buildings? Is this because it is an "imaginary" law that we have stuck in our heads?

Of course not, and Faith is just like that and has been empiracally demonstrated. As my signature says .."it survives all it's conquerors".

Furthermore, you are operating on a secular definition of Faith. When you use this word and when I use this word, we are not talking about the same thing. So niether are we comparing apples to apples. This is the biblical definition of faith:

Hebrews 11:1
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

As for the secular argument as to the existence of God (faith) ....it requires much, much, much more secular faith to believe that the universe and all we see and know is an accident, than it does to believe there is a soveriegn creator who has a plan and purpose for everything.

Outside of a horridly weak hypothesis known "abiogenesis" ....man has yet to explain how "non-living" matter at some point suddenly becomes "living matter". Now this is a product of the imagination that has only one basis ....fear.

Semele ...I am going to try my best to address your question tonite, because it is a great queation. :)

Have a great day everyone!

shaz

[MasterMoon]

It is strange how people think I am negative in my views.
Nothing could be further from the truth. I am simply free from all the nonsense. :O)
I dont need faith. For what? To kid myself?
If I want to do something, I go do it. I dont need to concoct fantasies in my mind to cause action.
As far as God, what makes you think that this universe was created? Because you think so?
Because you have a fantasy called "faith" Because the Bible says so? Think of how insignifigant humans are compared to the universe. Now think of how arrogant it is to say the universe is a certain way because we believe it is. I wonder what mosquitoes believe humans are?
We are just bugs in the universe ! Worth no more or less than a fly ! More than likely, we are probably made by the earth itself. Kind of like your body grows hair. Well the earth grows humans and other things too. (Earth- what a marvelous creature!) What you call your mind and your intellect, all a dream. Rubbish. (i am not speaking to anyone in particular here. I am using the word "you" in a general sense)

Shaz, we cannot compare gravity and faith together in the sense of being real. Think about what you posted. Faith is purely a condition of the mind. It is an attitude, a choice.
Gravity may or may not exsist per se. What we call gravity is simply the way things behave. An effect. So this is comparing apples with oranges.

Im not saying that faith is useless. (It is to me but thats beside the point.) The illusion of faith can cause one to ACT. So in that case it has served a purpose, even though it is imaginary.

I see people guarding their beliefs as though they are precious and worthwhile. I think it is absurd. Everything you know has been put into your head from somewhere else. Every single word. What you call "faith" is a taught emotion. It is also a product of the language you speak. How do you have faith if there is no word or feeling for it? The only reason any one can, is because they were taught to.
Man made God
Man concieved of the falsehood called enlightenment.
So, give up all this nonsense and go have a beer...ok?

**These words are just phrases I have picked up, so dont believe any of it. It is total nonsense. I would say it is my opinion, but on closer contemplation, it isnt my opinion. I am just regurgitating words that I have heard somewhere and liked.
So now I am going to have a beer!

[AmbivalentMirage]

I find that faith is inadequate. Faith and belief both share the ability to be swayed. Knowledge is power and is concrete. Only hard-cold facts and proof can detract from knowledge. This is why the mitzvot say "Know that G-d exists, that he is true, and do not doubt." It does not say "Believe", it tells us to "know". This suggests that to "know" is to eliminate the handholds for doubt. :) Just my Judaic $0.02. *returns to reading his Torah and chanting prayers like a good Qabbalist* ;)

[Belteshazzar]

Originally posted by MasterMoon
It is strange how people think I am negative in my views.

greetings Moon!

Well ....I would say you have conducted yourself nicely. But I would also say that history has shown that if your world view is accepted by the masses, ...the results can be devastating, as I may demonstrate momentarily.


Originally posted by MasterMoon
As far as God, what makes you think that this universe was created? Because you think so?
Moon ...admittedly, I am no big deal. But maybe you would consider Albert Einstien to be a pretty big deal when it comes to understanding the universe. I think the title "man of the 20th century" says alot about what scholars think of this man. Now if you understand the universe better that he did, maybe you will be the "man of the 21st century". Einstien has demonstated that the first edict of the universe is "cause and effect". Nothing can happen without a "cause", ..period. (unless of course you are willing to disguard every bit of logic and knowledge known to man) Everything that exist in time and space had a cause. The universe exist in time and space, therefore the universe had a cause. In the words of Einstien, man of the 20th century, ..."God does not roll the dice". Given your world view ...if that is your sincere beliefs, Einstiens evidence for a created universe should be quite compelling.


Originally posted by MasterMoon
Think of how insignifigant humans are compared to the universe.
I don't see how you could say this is not "negative".

First, what in your opinion makes humans so insignificant? Our size? Can you show me one thing in the "known" universe quite as unique and special as a human being?

Do you realize, if it were not for the starry host above, we (mankind) would not be were we are today? Without the stars, navigation in ancient times would have been barrier to civilization? One the we may have never overcame? Without them, we would have been devasted by famines and such far beyond what we can estimate.

Do we serve the stars ...or do they serve us. I have to strongly disagree with you. I could argue for hours on the very obvious significance of man in the universe.


Originally posted by MasterMoon
We are just bugs in the universe ! Worth no more or less than a fly ! More than likely, we are probably made by the earth itself.

Moon ....I am having a hard time understanding your imagination and emotions. ;)

It seems that your philosophy on life is quite "nihilistic". I believe history has shown on many occasions that this philosophy is quite unlivable for society. However, don't rest on my opinion. Listen carefully to a man who knows first hand the tragedy that can result from a nihilistic world view.

Viktor Frankl (Auschwitz survivor)

If we present man with a concept of man which is not true, we may well corrupt him. When we present him as an automaton of reflexes, as a mind machine, as a bundle of instincts, as a pawn of drive and reactions, as a mere product of heredity and environment, we feed the nihilism to which modern man is, in any case, prone. I became acquainted with the last stage of corruption in my second concentration camp, Auschwitz. The gas chambers of Auschwitz were the ultimate consequence of the theory that man is nothing but the product of heredity and environment - or, as the Nazis liked to say, "of blood and soil." I am absolutely convinced that the gas chambers of Auschwitz, Treblinka, and Maidanek were ultimately prepared not in some ministry or other in Berlin, but rather at the desks and in lecture halls of nihilistic scientists and philosophers.

Frankl, Viktor. (1982) The Doctor and the Soul: Introduction to Logotherapy Knopf, New York, p.xxi


Originally posted by MasterMoon
Shaz, we cannot compare gravity and faith together in the sense of being real. Think about what you posted. Faith is purely a condition of the mind. It is an attitude, a choice.
Gravity may or may not exsist per se. What we call gravity is simply the way things behave. An effect. So this is comparing apples with oranges.

Moon ...you said "think about what you posted" ...okay ...I have thought about it ....and I have no idea what you are implying. I need a specific quote to follow you. However, it appears that you either haven't carefully read my post or simply don't understand my position.

You said "Shaz, we cannot compare gravity and faith together in the sense of being real. " ....To that I say "how so?" I think the analogy is right on the money, because my faith works just like the law of gravity.

Furthermore, the Christian faith is not found in the "mind", rather it is found the a "person", that my firend, must be experienced to understand.


Originally posted by MasterMoon
Im not saying that faith is useless. (It is to me but thats beside the point.) The illusion of faith can cause one to ACT. So in that case it has served a purpose, even though it is imaginary.


Moon ....think about what you are saying. Because you have not experienced faith, you are acting on "taught emotion".

Let's say I went to Africa and attempted to explain to a starving tribesman what vanilla ice cream and apple pies taste like. The first thing I would have to do is explain somehow what vanilla, ice cream, apples and pie IS. Even if I could do that, the only way he could understand what it taste like is to taste it himself. Otherwise, he will be left to his own understanding, and would have to rely on "taught emotion" to respond to me.

Moon ....I welcome your comments and response. I just ask that you be specific when you make your objections and avoid generalizations. I hope that does not sound rude. I just like discussions of this type to be based on critical thinking, so that it never gets "personal".

sincerely yours,

shaz

[FLipsiDE]

Greetings Belteshazzar, Master Moon,

I do not believe that a comparison of Gravity and something like Faith in Christ is a proper comparison. Gravity has been shown to exist. Even if the method of it's transmition are unknown, it's effects are empirical. Faith in Christ, Buddha, the angel Maroni, Osiris, Huitzlipochtli has no external proofs of it's/their existance. Gravity is an effect under the Philosophy of Science, Odin an effect of the theology of the Norse Mythos. The two are cannot be lumped together as equals except that they both are used by our minds.

The effect of gravity is just that. An effect or a result of a process we are not fully understanding of. We have created a mental objects and words in our vocabularies to contain this and related thoughts. Gravity, weight, time(?) space, density, mass and other related terms. In all cases we were creating terms to provide a means of approaching an existing phenomena. Empirical phenomena. What I believe Moon is calling "real".

Faith is a real mental state, in that it exists and is important for most people, but imaginary, in that it is non-empirical. You do not have to calculate the effects of faith when computing re-rentry for the space shuttle. ("OK Houston. We are changing course to avoid the Bible Belt but we will be using the India subcontinent to help slow our approach..." hee hee) We don't worry about how much faith stress a reinforcement beam on a skyscraper can bear any more than we would weigh in the effects of mood, nightmares, sexual fantasies or what books you've read.

The effects of faith are not directly the effects of faith as much as they are the effects of faith on the people for whom the faith is valid or applied against.

Belteshazzar: "Can you show me one thing in the 'known' universe quite as unique and special as a human being?" As a scientist at heart the answer is easy. Everything. From physical uniqueness like snowflakes to improbabilities like colonies of sea sponges that can highjack other sponge's gonads to vast things like the chain of events that caused the hourglass nebula to look like it does. The world is full of wonderfull and amazing things in every branch of investigation. Quantum Physics, the intricacies of DNA and cell mechanics, immune response, animal psychology, palentology, chemistry questions about the origin of life. It's a human tendancy to think that we are the apex of existance rather than a part in an ongoing play. I think it's an attitude like that which leads us to poor, short sighted environmental choices in our politics.

The obvious signifigance of mankind? It's a dangerous position to take. When we think of ourselves as better than animals or empowered by God to fulfill ______, then we get into thinking that we are not subject to the same laws that govern the rest of the universe. One of Regan's top officials said something along the lines of "We don't have to worry about our decaying nuclear stockpile. The second coming will be along shortly." That's faith alright.

Ambivalent Mirage, Cold hard empirical knowledge is important but do not underestimate the power (for evil AND for good) of faith and hope and charity and compassion. All non-concrete things which have changed our world for the better. As long as we are human we will have these things, and they are the things that make us who we are individually and in groups. Do not over estimate what science can do us (like any tool, Good AND Evil).

One last thing Bel, Nitzche hated the Nazis for perverting his writtings. He stopped speaking to his best friend because of that friend's fierce Nazi belief's. But you always hear people smackin' on poor Nitzche but no one complains when we listen to Nazi Richard Wagner's "Ride of the Valkyries". Nitzche's not so bad. :)

[Gwion]

A Little Rock woman was killed after leaping through her moving car's sunroof during an incident best described as "a mistaken rapture" by dozens of eyewitnesses. Thirteen other people were injured after a twenty-car pile up resulted from people trying to avoid hitting the woman who was apparently convinced that the rapture was occurring when she saw twelve people floating up into the air, and then passed a man on the side of the road who she claimed was Jesus. "She started screaming "He's back, He's back" and climbed right out of the sunroof and jumped off the roof of the car," said Everet Williams, husband of 28-year-old Georgann Williams who was pronounced dead at the scene. "I was slowing down but she wouldn't wait till I stopped," Williams said. She thought the rapture was happening and was convinced that Jesus was gonna lift her up into the sky," he went on to say. "This is the strangest thing I've seen since I've been on the force," said Paul Madison, first officer on the scene. Madison questioned the man who looked like Jesus and discovered that he was dressed up as Jesus and was on his way to a toga costume party when the tarp covering the bed of his pickup truck came loose and released twelve blow up sex dolls filled with helium which floated up into the air. Ernie Jenkins, 32, of Fort Smith, who's been told by several of his friends that he looks like Jesus, pulled over and lifted his arms into the air in frustration, and said "Come back here," just as the Williams' car passed him, and Mrs. Williams was sure that it was Jesus lifting people up into the sky as they passed by him, according to her husband, who says his wife loved Jesus more than anything else. When asked for comments about the twelve sex dolls, Jenkins replied "This is all just too weird for me. I never expected anything like this to happen."

08/24/01

[Belteshazzar]

Originally posted by FLipsiDE
Faith is a real mental state, in that it exists and is important for most people, but imaginary, in that it is non-empirical. You do not have to calculate the effects of faith when computing re-rentry for the space shuttle.

flipside,

Good to hear from you again.

Like Moon, you are operating from the only understanding of faith you have ... a secular one. Having been there before, I know. My philosophies use to be similar to yours and Moon's, but all that change through a life changing experience that you call non-empiracle faith.

Faith is empiracal, but not in the exact sense that gravity is. Let me first give you the literal definiton of faith in Scipture. The word translated "faith" in the NT is the Greek word "pistis" which literally means "a conviction of truth". Therefore, if I act on a principal of faith, and it fails me, then you are correct. However, that has yet to happen. In fact, I have empiracally discovered that what God says ....God will do.

Both your post and Moon's post remind me of the Old Testament book of Job. Many scholars estimate it may be the oldest book in the bible, possible wriiten between 3500 to 4000 years ago. In a very brief summary, here is Job, sitting in a ash pile, surrounded by so-called friends who can only look down their legalistic noses at him, and Job's complaint to God could be summerized like this. ....God ...I have made every decision based on what I know to be right and what I understand ...now you want me to accept my situation (by faith) ...without knowing or understanding why? .....Then God answers Job "Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said, Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge? Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me. (Job 38:1-3) ....Then God asked Job 64 questions to which he had no answer for, and ironically, many of those things Job had accepted without having knowledge and understanding of them.

To me that story is quite contemporary, only that much of humanity lack the wisdom and humility of Job. We have the arrogance to think we can "pull ourselves up" by our intellectual and economical bootstraps, but time will prove that was only a product of our imagination. But when Job quit belly aching, and trusted God to do His will, everything Job lost was gained 2-fold.

If i can find the time I will respond on the issue of man's significance. That does not mean that everything else is insignificant. However, man has a "uniqueness" that goes beyond the fold of nature.

Gwion,

Personally I find no relation between your story and faith. Clearly, faith and lunacy are two different things.

shaz

[Danustouch]

Ok...let's see if I can do this without everyone jumping on my back, thinking i'm attacking, rather than defending, or discussing ;) Said I wasn't going to post here, but...I see this point, and I don't know if anyone else is going to post it. And if noone else does, I'm going to kick myself for it for days.

Allright...Shaz, you stated that God does what He SAYS he Will do, all the time.

So...I have to ask, logically, does that mean, that since God Says that when you have the faith of a mustard seed, you can move mountains, that you can? For instance...Let me just ask. Haven't you ever prayed for a person to be healed, and they haven't been? Haven't you ever prayed for a person to be spared something, and they haven't been? Prayed to get a job, that you haven't gotten? Is this because you had too little faith, or is it because it simply wasn't Gods' Will? Because the point that I am getting at, is that God DOESNT always do what he promises. The meek haven't inherited the earth, in every situation. The blind haven't seen every time. The Lame haven't always been able to walk. Yes, an argument can be made that they WILL One day happen, like, during the rapture. But they haven't happened yet. So that..is faith. Not emperical evidence.

Another example I was thinking of. A Christian, and a Bhuddist, both pray for two people who are dying of the same cancer, on the same day. Both patients, are healed. Which God is answering their prayers? If both are praying to differen't Gods? Thus, it is only your PERCEPTION of the Cure, that makes it a Miracle of YOUR God. And the Bhuddists perception of the cure, that makes it a Miracle of HIS God. Thus, it cannot be emperical evidence, but rather "Faith" in the "dictionary" sense of the word. You cannot see "Jehovah" or "Yahweh" physically removing this persons cancer with your eyes. Neither can the Bhuddist. So it is your Perception, through your faith, that that is how the cancer came to be healed. Emperical evidence, would be if you actually saw the procedure taking place, and then the cure. Emperical evidence, would be if you physically tracked the process of his chemotheraphy, and how it effected the Cancer. Do you see what I am getting at?

One more point that I was thinking of. And I do not mean any offense with this example at all...it is simply the only example that I could choose, to demonstrate my point.

A Child awakens on Christmas morning, to a ton of gifts beneath the tree. Happily, he yells "Santa Came". Now..it was his parents who bought the gifts. NOT Santa. And yet, the child does not know this. To him, it was absolutely Santa Clause...and he really did "come" because there were all those presents underneath the tree, marked "the north pole". The Child, is making a leap of "Faith". He has "Faith" that it is Santa Clause, but he cannot KNOW. Because he doesn't exactly SEE Santa Clause bringing those gifts in. And he didn't actually SEE the elves making those toys.

That is why I cannot accept "God Always does what he says" as emperical evidence.

[Semele]

Originally posted by Danustouch
Haven't you ever prayed for a person to be healed, and they haven't been? Haven't you ever prayed for a person to be spared something, and they haven't been? Prayed to get a job, that you haven't gotten? Is this because you had too little faith, or is it because it simply wasn't Gods' Will?

Interesting point you are making Danus, but couldn't we all answer this question? Sometimes aren't we, as simple humans, asking for the wrong things? Maybe we don't understand the whole picture and are asking for what we percieve to be the best answer, when in fact, God knows best.

I used to get annoyed with people making comments about God's will and he knows what's best, etc. However, more and more I am realising that this may be true.

Funny you asked about the possibility that we didn't have enough faith for these things to come to fruition, because I have seen incidences where people were told just that regarding a lack of answer they were seeking. Wrongfully so in my opinion. However, what if we aren't quite as sincere in our WILL when we are trying to pray or send energy? Maybe we are asking for a good job or help in a shaky relationship, but subconsciously, (which I feel is a greater source of energy) we don't really desire these things at all. Maybe because we are comfortable with things the way they are and we fear change. Just some ideas to toss around.

Also, there is a possibility that someone or something else, (God?) has a better understanding of what needs to happen in each situation.

You stated that God doesn't always do what he promises...I assume you are speaking only of Bible verses? If so, maybe you are right, but my theory on that is that the Bible, just like man is open to interpretations so vast we could never really prove or disprove it's validity. The meek shall inherit the earth...I don't think that means literally. Haven't you seen examples of how this has indeed happened? If you look hard enough you can find truths in any statement by man, same way with finding falseness in any statement. Of course if you were referring to God promising something directly and then not coming through, perhaps the promise was misunderstood?

If somene has terminal Cancer and prays and asks to be healed...who is to say they haven't been healed of something even if the Cancer kills them? Maybe thier soul has been healed or thier spirit? Sometimes the answer to prayers is different than the one we expect.

[Demeter]

Gwion, why post an urban legend - and a silly one at that - in a discussion like this?

[MasterMoon]

Hello Shaz,
Im sorry if I bombarded you with too much information, thats just me rambling.
Ok then, I will start with this quote:

By Shaz:
Well ....I would say you have conducted yourself nicely. But I would also say that history has shown that if your world view (nihilism) accepted by the masses, ...the results can be devastating, as I may demonstrate momentarily.

Ok, first off, I dont have a world view. You do. That is the first problem

By Shaz:
Moon ...admittedly, I am no big deal. But maybe you would consider Albert Einstien to be a pretty big deal when it comes to understanding the universe. I think the title "man of the 20th century" says alot about what scholars think of this man. Now if you understand the universe better that he did, maybe you will be the "man of the 21st century". Einstien has demonstated that the first edict of the universe is "cause and effect". Nothing can happen without a "cause", ..period. (unless of course you are willing to disguard every bit of logic and knowledge known to man) Everything that exist in time and space had a cause. The universe exist in time and space, therefore the universe had a cause. In the words of Einstien, man of the 20th century, ..."God does not roll the dice". Given your world view ...if that is your sincere beliefs, Einstiens evidence for a created universe should be quite compelling.

By Moon: Einstein was a fool!

By Shaz: I don't see how you could say this is not "negative".

First, what in your opinion makes humans so insignificant? Our size? Can you show me one thing in the "known" universe quite as unique and special as a human being?

Do you realize, if it were not for the starry host above, we (mankind) would not be were we are today? Without the stars, navigation in ancient times would have been barrier to civilization? One the we may have never overcame? Without them, we would have been devasted by famines and such far beyond what we can estimate.

Do we serve the stars ...or do they serve us. I have to strongly disagree with you. I could argue for hours on the very obvious significance of man in the universe.

By Moon: Yes for one our size..for another, what makes you think that we are anything more or less signifigant than anything else? We are the same as a rock, a tree, the sun, the stars.
It is haughty to think that we are special, and foolish to think we dont matter.

By Shaz:Moon ....I am having a hard time understanding your imagination and emotions.

It seems that your philosophy on life is quite "nihilistic". I believe history has shown on many occasions that this philosophy is quite unlivable for society. However, don't rest on my opinion. Listen carefully to a man who knows first hand the tragedy that can result from a nihilistic world view.

By Moon: See above comment, I dont have a world view. I reject them all. I am also a realist. Not unreasonably optimistic or not unproductively negative. I also do not accept any quotes from books as proof of anything. With the exception of a standard dictionary

By Shaz:Moon ...you said "think about what you posted" ...okay ...I have thought about it ....and I have no idea what you are implying. I need a specific quote to follow you. However, it appears that you either haven't carefully read my post or simply don't understand my position.


By Moon:
You compared faith to gravity. You said that faith was like gravity
Gravity is not seen. Faith is not seen. Gravity is real? Faith is real? Well then you said gravity was real because ...well a rock could fall on your head...so denying it doesnt matter it has real effects. So you implied gravity was real. Then you implied faith was real....very tricky my friend.

Gravity is an EFFECT of something else.
Faith is an ATTITUDE that someone has.
Lets see...if faith and gravity are the same, lets switch the words around
Gravity is an ATTITUDE that someone has
Faith is an EFFECT of something else.
Nope doesnt work.


By Shaz:
Furthermore, the Christian faith is not found in the "mind", rather it is found the a "person", that my firend, must be experienced to understand.

By Moon:
Can you show me the difference between "mind" and "person"
I mean something I can see, because I dont understand what you mean.

By Shaz:Moon ....think about what you are saying. Because you have not experienced faith, you are acting on "taught emotion".

By Moon: How do you know what or what I havent experienced?
why do you make such assumptions?

[Gwion]

In choosing between Faith and Gravity when jumping out of a plane, you can usually count on Gravity as a factor. Without Bob's Parachute of Slack, one is lost. (Hail Bob)

[Danustouch]

Semele-


but couldn't we all answer this question? Sometimes aren't we, as simple humans, asking for the wrong things? Maybe we don't understand the whole picture and are asking for what we percieve to be the best answer, when in fact, God knows best.

Of COURSE we all could answer this question, or at least, believe we could. If you are asking if we've all had those things happen, that is. I wasn't attempting to debate "Why" these things happen (so I probably shouldn't have given those two options), but rather illustrate that God DOESNT always do what he has promised through scripture (i.e, sometimes, even if we have a WORLD of faith, things don't happen the way we wish. Perhaps, because they were not meant to be, or another option that we simply cannot understand from our human perspective). Yes, there are times that a person says a prayer, or sends some energy, when their heart isn't in it. But...likewise, there are a MILLION times, when people put their whole heart into a prayer, and all of their faith, and it STILL doesn't happen. Fate, Not in Gods will...call it what you want, the fact is, the result we desire still doesn't come to pass.

Yes, we could ALL answer this question, but ...I'm not the one who is choosing to put my religion on trial :) I'm not the one seeking to justify my beliefs, by defending them with the claim of emperical evidence. That is the difference :) Shaz has claimed that his religion is "right" because of Emperical Evidence (cause/effect etc) of it being so. I am attempting to illustrate, that ones religion cannot be proven by emperical evidence, because the evidence is subjective to a persons perspective. Thus, my illustration of the Santa Clause Story.




You stated that God doesn't always do what he promises...I assume you are speaking only of Bible verses? If so, maybe you are right, but my theory on that is that the Bible, just like man is open to interpretations so vast we could never really prove or disprove it's validity.

Thank you, for illustrating my point, so eloquently :) That's just it. It is open to "Interpretation". And we can never PROVE...or DISPROVE its' validity. Thus, arguing that everything that is written in the Bible, has been proven true, is a matter of perspective, at best, exaggeration, at worst.

I brought up the point that several things in the Bible have NOT come to pass yet. (Just look at the Book of Revelations) thus, God has not proven that all of this book, is true...yet. Thus, the argument of having emperical proof for Gods existance, or the Bibles truth, is not a valid argument. Because so much of it is subject to ones perspective (i.e...seeing what they WISH to see, either by interpreting a verse incorrectly, or merely by choosing to believe that their prayer, got them the job, rather than a well written resume, etc).

I am well aware that the Beatitudes were written in parable form. And I am aware that the verse "The Meek Shall inherit the Earth" is a "Figurative" verse. However, the figurative meaning, as far as I know, is that those that are meek, will actually reap rewards for it. That being "meek" is a good thing, etc. etc. However, How in society has being "meek" been rewarded? Except in ULTRA rare cases, such as Ghandi, MLK jr, and Mother Theresa...MOST people who are meek, get stepped on, stepped over, and forgotten. And..to tell the truth..calling Ghandi, or MLK jr Meek, is a matter of perspective unto its own. What is meek "externally" was certainly not meek "internally" in their cases. IMO..and through MY experience, being meek often means taking the crappy end of the stick, in some respects. One MAY or may not, get peace of mind from walking the highroad..however, the rewards are usually balanced heavily, with alot of pain and sacrifice.

The Lame haven't Walked. (even figuratively) in all cases, Nor the Blind Seen. Unless it's happening on the "Other Side" ..after ones death..which we cannot "Know" emperically :)

We don't know that the wicked have been brought to justice...we can't see anyone burning in hell ;)

Just like in ANY religion, or ANY religios doctrine, one must observe with ones heart, and have FAITH with ones heart. None of it can be proven emperically...

"It is only with the heart, that one can see rightly" Antoine St. Xupery (sp)

That's my .02

[Belteshazzar]

Danustouch,

Good to see and hear you again. I was beginning to go looking for you, fearing that you may have gotten trapped in that last thread when Semele bolted the door. :D (just kidding)

In respect to your 50 question rebutle, I fear that you really haven't considered what the scripture says about faith and prayer. First, faith is "something" that God gives us when He wants to motvate us or direct us, and also when we "seek, knock and ask" with the right motives. Faith is NOT a "wish", and God is not a genuie that is obligated to act whenever we rub His lamp. That is not what scripture teaches, nor have I implied that in my posts.

You see Danustouch, faith has little to do with what we "want". Faith is an instrument used of God to do His own will ...IN and THROUGH the lives of His children. If you can grasp that, then maybe your understanding of scripture will change. You CANNOT correctly interpret scripure if you have an UNscriptural understanding of the content.

As for "removing mountians", ask yourselfs some questions. Try these ....who? what? when? where? why? and how? If you have not sought to answer these questions in reference to the scriptures you question, then have have not really tried to understand them.

I would love to give you the contexual landscape of this scripture, but I don't have the time this morning, so I will shorten it up. The scripture in question was recorded by those to whom it was preached to, so if Jesus was speaking of literaly removing a real mountian, why would they have recorded a principle that they themselves have not accomplished? Think about what mountians were in ancient times ...they were barriers ...obstacles. This made prosperity difficult when it came to RECIEVING the good things people were in need of. And what Jesus wants you to know Danus, is that when we come to faith, God will use our faith to remove obstacles (mountians) in our life that are prohibiting us from having the good things that God wants us to have. The biggest mountian I know of is Mt. Pride. The last 3 1/2 years of my life have been far better than the first 30. With a number of mountians removed, I have experienced the peace, joy, relationships and good things that I was unable to before due to the "mountians" that hindered me.

As for prayer ...well Semele again has floored me with her wisdom and understanding. But I want to just add a few principle for prayer.

1. If you expect an asnwer from God, (in most cases) you must first be right with God and your fellow man. It is repulsive to think we can have hate in our hearts and get a positive reponse from God. Simply put, unconfessed sin hinders prayer.

2. The night before Jesus choose His 12 disciples, the bible says He prayed ALL night continually. He did not pray one little half hearted prayer. If Jesus dedictaed so much time and effort to prayer, shouldn't His followers do likewise? Since when is the servant greater than the master? And this is another reason why many Christians never experience God in this way. The book of James says "the FREQUENT and ferverent prayer of a righteous man/woman availeth MUCH".

Danus ....is it reasonable to think that we can make our "own conditions" for prayer and faith ...then expect God to do our will?

3. What Semele said.

4. What Semele said plus ....God does not operate by our time table ....God is NEVER in a hurry. God has as much time as He needs. Sometimes people's prayers get answered 6 months later, but they don't realize it because they quit praying 5 1/2 months ago.

5. Don't worry ...be happy!

Okay ...now I have some questions.

1. If your beliefs are not based on faith, then what are they based on?

2. How do you believe the divine communicates with us?

ohhh great Danus ...now I am late for work, ...see what you made me do.:D

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Moon,

If you have an active mind ...you have a world view. Everyone has a world view and everyone has an agenda.

have a good day and ...vote!

shaz

[Belteshazzar]

Originally posted by Gwion
In choosing between Faith and Gravity when jumping out of a plane, you can usually count on Gravity as a factor. Without Bob's Parachute of Slack, one is lost. (Hail Bob)

Gwion,

This qoute looks like tunnel vision.

Faith and Logic are two different instruments.

Logic is the vehicle to operate in the natural world.

Faith is the vehicle to operate in the spiritual world.

My analogy was an analogy ....not a literal equivilant.

BTW ...I am quite familiar with jumping out of planes. :p

shaz

[Danustouch]

Shaz,

To me it seems that you are going "around" the point, rather than addressing the point. I am not saying that God, or that MY Gods CANNOT work miracles. What I am saying, is that he doesnt ALWAYS remove those obstacles. He doesn't always answer our Prayers. He doesn't always concquer or problems. People can have all the faith in the world, and yet, sometimes, things do not turn out as they would wish them to. From the person who desperately wishes for a child, and is INCAPABLE of having them. To The man who is dying of cancer, and wants to live to see his daughter wed, he doesn't always concquer those obstacles.

Yes, God may hold a differen't plan for these people. Yes, he may have his own reasons, for making these obstacles inconquerable. And yes, at times, there may be a greater lesson for these people to learn. But the fact remains, that they have put their faith in God, to have these obstacles overcome, and they haven't been. So what you are saying, is that in those cases, they must have faith that God is still doing his OWN work, in spite of their problems. Ok...got that. I view things differen'tly (and again, my faith isn't on trial in this thread. It isn't PAGAN apologetics, so..I don't need to clarify).

But aren't there still Bible verses which have not been fulfilled? Have all of the wicked been punished for their sins? How can you know? Do you have a birdseye view into hell? Have all of the holy been rewarded? Can you "see them" over there in Heaven, having a feast at his table?

You say that God always does what he promises to do. What does he promise to do, that he has always done? Protect you from your enemies? Punish the wicked, reward the holy? Conquer Satan....those types of biblical promises, are all subjective. We cannot KNOW that he has done all these things. Only our perspective can make us "Believe" with "FAITH" that he has done these things.

Of course, it doesn't really matter what points I prove here. You will simply go back to the idea of "Secular" vs "Biblical Faith". My point is, I believe that the Biblical idea of Faith is impossible. Nobody Can "KNOW" emperically, that God really is who he says he is, or that he is doing all of the things that he says he is doing, because we cannot observe it from a completely detatched standpoint. We invest what we "want to believe" into what "Is.". You WANT to believe in your concept of God. You WANT to believe in your concept of faith. And thus you WILL believe that. And anything that happens to you in your life, will ultimately reflect that which you want to believe. You will view it, from the perspective of Biblical faith, whether or not there really is emperical evidence of "God at work" in any given situation. That is a human quality. We find what we look for. We believe what we want to. And that is exactly why I say that there can be no emperical evidence of Jehovah or Yahweh existing in the sense that you propose. Because for all of those who DONT believe in him, don't WANT to believe in him, and don't see any evidence of his existance, he is very much..NOT REAL. Now..I'm not saying that I don't believe he exists. I do. By MY standards. My Faith that all things possibilities exist, that all truths exist (see other thread, as we can't go back and debate this here). I simply don't chose to worship him as my God. However, my point is that Emperical Evidence must be far more conclusive than simply what we "wish" To be true. And a perception of the truth.

As for Prayer...I never said anyone would have to mention one puny little prayer to have it be so. One "Puny" little prayer may not demonstrate the "Will" "desire" or "Faith " needed to create the desired result. But..how about praying every night. How about praying twenty times a day. How about making offerings, and fasting, and tithing. Any and all of these methods have been used for various people, for various reasons, WHOLEHEARTEDLY, and still, their prayers have been denied. It would, i suppose, be in those cases, where you would say "God knows better than us, what is right for us" which, is ...again, a matter of perspective. And frankly, I'd suggest opening another thread to discuss "Why prayer sometimes doesn't work", if you wanted to discuss this, as that was NOT the intention of my post, as I clearly said in my previous post in answer to Semele.

Further more, I'm debating emperical evidence of God here. Personally, I don't care what Jesus "Wants Me" to know. If he wants me to know anything, he'll tell me himself ;) I don't accept messengers in such a way ;) That was a really good witness attempt though ;)

[Gwion]

as this.

http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0079/0079_01.asp

Never underestimate the Christian need to feel like a social Martyr by prosletyzing. I wonder, do you go on Jewish and Muslim boards and do this?

"It was because she read Spiderman comics instead of the Bible. If only she'd had faith..."

[Danustouch]

Incidentally, Shaz. I've already said what I wanted to say. My point is out there for those that wish to see it :) So...I bid you adiuex. As I originally said. The only reason I posted that, is that I felt it was a very good point, or I wouldn't have posted at all. And I don't intend to debate with you anymore. My posting that was more for other eyes, than your own ;)

Adiux :)

[Danustouch]

Pssssssst..Gwion. She really SHOULD lay off those tranquilizers!

[Belteshazzar]

Originally posted by Danustouch
Incidentally, Shaz. I've already said what I wanted to say. My point is out there for those that wish to see it :) So...I bid you adiuex.

Danus-

This might be a good idea considering your argument.

However, if you think you can discredit or debunk the empiracal evidence for the existence of God, why don't you tackle the "cosmological argument"? Maybe you could be the first to debunk it's validity. :rolleyes:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Gwion,

From your urban legend to your last post, you have only demonstrated your ability to rhetoricize" the discussion, which ANYONE can do. You may not like my arguments, but atleast I have one. It seems your hostility is a result of your inability to provide a proper refutation.

I spend alot of time workings with teens ...so I am use to it. :p

Unless you can provide sound objection or refutation, I will ignore your future hostility, ignorance and rudeness. Rather, your post shall speak for themselves.

Have a bad day. ....You have earned it.

shaz

[Gwion]

Here I am, having ascended the summit, reached the spiritual mountaintop, and having found God, I look down and am moved with pity and compassion for those who struggle upward, but cannot see the One True Path by which I have come. It is my divine "manifest destiny" to show the blind ones the One True Path, while patiently listening to their Pagan heresies and taking all of their abuse and rotten tomatoes with a patronizing air of holy martyrdom.

>Have a bad day.<

I thought good Christians didn't curse people...(pouting)

Well, you have a really good day Belty, because the Goddess tells us to love everyone, even the silly. XX

[Semele]

Moderator Mode

This thread is not to put anyones religion on trial, but rather to discuss the differences in a mature open minded way. If you insist on making it a "prove your religion worthy" thread, DO NOT REPLY HERE.


"Never underestimate the Christian need to feel like a social Martyr by prosletyzing. I wonder, do you go on Jewish and Muslim boards and do this?'

This comment is a direct violation of the one MW rule. Respect. If you can't show it to all members then perhaps you need to go elsewhere.

If anyone has a problem with this moderation, please address it in a pm directly to me and lets get this thread back to the topic at hand rather than trying to railroad each other.

[Semele]

Originally posted by Belteshazzar
With a number of mountians removed, I have experienced the peace, joy, relationships and good things that I was unable to before due to the "mountians" that hindered me.


Sheesh, I had a really lengthy, interesting reply to this and my computer ate it! Let me try again.

I was talking about how I agree that mountains, in life, can be a huge block and yes, God can help move them. However I also feel that we sometimes have to move some mountains ourselves in order to better hear and see God.

We can move mountains by removing clutter in our lives both physically and mentally. Like, sometimes negativity pulls us in and we may try to block it out and pray and our energy is too scattered worrying about things that don't matter. A clean desk is often more conducive to better writing and creativity, just as a clearer mind can focus better on things that matter most. Sometimes it is as simple as avoiding areas that we know will cause more harm than good. I think the more mountains we attempt to move ourselves, no matter how small, the more we are open to recieve God's help and messages and really hear them... and the less likely we are to keep running into mountains rather than going around them.

[FLipsiDE]

It's so easy to get off track here...

Gwion... Discussions that break down into name calling accomplish nothing but to make each side feel smug. I much prefer uncomfortable understanding and respect to smugness and righteousness. The presence of those who would argue the Christian viewpoint on a pagan forum is a valuable thing.

So, back to the fray...

Bel,
Faith and Logic are two different instruments.
Logic is the vehicle to operate in the natural world.
Faith is the vehicle to operate in the spiritual world.

So if Logic covers the natural world and Faith the spiritual one, why would you ever seek out an empirical proof for an admittedly non-empirical power? If Faith is the energy that powers the spiritual realm (and I agree... as a fan of Chaos magick Belief is power baby) then why try and prove the physical existance for a supernatural energy? Should I use terms related to Faith to describe the operations of a hydroelectric dam?

Semele,
I don't see how this is any different from Faith through Sour Grapes. "I Prayed honestly and dilligently for my friend's recovery. She died but I know that it was all a part of God's plan or maybe she was healed of her ingrown toenail rather than her cancer."

A key portion of Scientific thought is the idea that a theory is not valid if it cannot be proven to be false somehow. Faith is not falsifiable by any standard action. What breaks faith for one would reinforce it with another. There is no falsifyings a religious thought. When it comes to the success of prayers it has been studied numerous times and each time the proof says "Prayer doesn't seem to do anything". Being part of a community does something and it MAY even be possible that belief is healthier for you than no faith. (More studies with better controls should solidify this finding.) But even if it turns out to be true those are social and psychological effects... we know this because they apply for ANY faith of that type. B'hai, Muslim, Unitarian, Baptist, Hindu, Shinto, Daoist, Animistic... but prayer itself doesn't work except when you have decided that any or no answer counts as a success somehow. (Jehovas witnesses have a history with a relative of this... they have predicted the second coming something like seven times. Each time, rather than say "oh we were wrong" they said "He HAS come... but only to the spiritual worlds" or "he is gathering his forces"... basically un-falsifiable regardless of the situation.)

Bel,
The cosmological argument doesn't apply here. If you are looking for a first cause I will agree with you. God/dess. The first cause is fine but it won't work here for two reasons. First off... we're theists too. The argument of first cause doesn't say anything about which God is the first. We will disagree on it because of our assumptions and faith. Second, in order to believe in the first cause you have to believe that time/existance has a beginning and an end. In a Hindu/Buddhist type worldview this is ludicrous. There was no beginning and there will be no end. Existance is and concepts like beginning and end are assumptions only.

Science, when it applies itself to this question, usually comes up with similar answers. I have heard theories about parallell universes, universal strings (I like that one)... which may ultimately lead to the same place. The illusion of ultimate beginnnings and endings may be simply a human comfort.


Bel,
"Like Moon, you are operating from the only understanding of faith you have ... a secular one. Having been there before, I know."
Not so. I am a Pagan and one who has thought a respectable amount about issues of faith. Although I am a scientists at heart I do not approach matters of faith from a secular standpoint.

I am curious why you need to turn faith into an empirical thing? As a Pagan I find value and strength in mystery, metaphor and mythology. As a Pagan I have no burning need to prove that Raven stole fire from the mountain people, nor that Isis put Osiris back together... I would never go into a school and demand that they stop teaching meterology because that conflicted with my views that Vallhalla is in the sky and that Thor, not high and low pressure fronts, create thunderstorms. I wonder if a Christian need to prove that their mythology is real confuses them on faith. Must things be real/empirical to be valid?

What if we found the bodily remains of Jesus? What would that do to your faith? The body of one who was supposedly physically ressurected would be a tremendous blow to the modern Christian faiths. But would that in any way detract from the message that Christianity brings? It's teachings on compassion and faith in the face of hardship? I strongly suspect that Christianity would survive just fine. WHy? Because religion is about non-empirical things. It's about emotions and meanings and it provides the vocabulary, the faith and the tools of faith, that allow us, as spiritual beings, to live in a world that is not "just" physical reality.

Job is that old? I thought I had read something about it being relatively late, in the world of the Torah. Job was an answer to the question of "Does punishment or reward for being good or bad happen here in this world or in the next?". Bishop Sprong was talking about it.
When I get time I'll go back and re-read Job. (much more readable than something like Numbers... gak...)

[Belteshazzar]

Originally posted by Semele
But the scriptures were written down by someone other than Jesus, correct? His disciples and such? I am sure they took the time and energy to write these down because they were truly inspired and because God wanted them to, and that they tried as hard as they could to get the TRUTH down on paper...or stone??? However could thier interpretation of the scriptures affect the wording or the true message of the scriptures

Semele,

Now seems like a good time to get back to your question. :)

The "reliability of scripture" is a very complicated topic because there are so many levels at which it can be challenged and defended. Even if I spent pages and pages (or another thread) posting the remarkable characteristics of scripture, when it was all said and done, you are ultimately left with the same question ...is scripture simply written by men, or God breathed? (2Timothy 3:16)

I personally have no doubt that it is the latter. However, that is not something you can not take my word for ...the only way one can find out is to seek that answer himself/herself. That is the main point Danus has missed. When testify that my faith is empiracal, the only way to soundly refute that claim is to prove that I am wrong.

As for the disciples recording Jesus' words, two things I want to briefly share. First, the disciples lived in what scholars call an "oral society". Because they did not have availablilty of the written word as we do today, they became very skilled in the art of memorization. I am convinced the "human" reason the gospels were recorded is because of perverted doctrines and teaching that quickly landed in the early church. (often addressed in the epistles) This also sheds light on the striking similarites between gospel accounts. Before the gospels were written and circulated, the early church would recite the teachings and sayings of Jesus, as well as OT scripture. This went on for more than 20 years. So on one hand, the memorization was common. But on the other hand, it opens the door to misrepresentation. That is why we have Matthew, Mark and Luke. John was written much later. It is also worthy to note that in the gospel of John, Jesus said that when the Holy Spirit came, the Holy Spirit would BRING TO REMBERANCE, the things He had told them.

What I find really fasinating is the often missed themes of eack gospel. Matthew and Mark are the flip side of the same coin in this sense. In Matthew, the obvious theme is that Jesus is the promised King, or as Jewish scholars put it ..."messiah ben David". But in Mark we see Jesus present as the suffering servant who would later be exalted ...."messiah ben Joseph".

In Like He is refered to as "the Son of Man", but it is John that makes reference to His diety, and calls Him "the Son of God". That is just an interesting observation that most people are unaware of. ;)

Secondly, what matters most is what some call "illumination". I can't tell you how many testimonies I have heard of someone looking to the bible in the "dark night of the soul", and being illuminated. The most recent testimony I heard was of a 911 firefighter who became crippled or paralyzed, and his wife left him because of his condition. With a broken and contite spirit, he began to read scripture one night, and God spoke to him through His word and illuminated his soul and spirit.

There are a number of different angles one may approach this topic. But at the end of the day, one can only decide for himself/herself is the scriptures are inspired, once they have made an unbiased review. That is to set aside your precommitments in search of a truthful answer to this question. Because without the aid of God's Spirit, we can't understand it anyway.

Lastly, I would say one more thing. The bible has unmatched prophetic credibilty. In both fulfilled prophecy, and that which is taking place in recent generations.

I wish I had more time to comment on every point of your post but I am out of time.

peace and blessings,

shaz

[mol]

Originally posted by Semele
Sheesh, I had a really lengthy, interesting reply to this and my computer ate it! Let me try again.

I was talking about how I agree that mountains, in life, can be a huge block and yes, God can help move them. However I also feel that we sometimes have to move some mountains ourselves in order to better hear and see God.

I have found, more often than not, that God/Goddess/He/She/It has been the one to put the mountains in front of me. I have also found that you dont need to move the mountain, just find the path around it.

[Gwion]

Tis the time’s plague, when madmen lead the blind.
Gloucester, KING LEAR, IV, i

[Semele]

Originally posted by Belteshazzar

Secondly, what matters most is what some call "illumination". I can't tell you how many testimonies I have heard of someone looking to the bible in the "dark night of the soul", and being illuminated. The most recent testimony I heard was of a 911 firefighter who became crippled or paralyzed, and his wife left him because of his condition. With a broken and contite spirit, he began to read scripture one night, and God spoke to him through His word and illuminated his soul and spirit.


Yes, I am familiar with what you are speaking of. The rock bottom stage in some lives where they recieve a message loud and clear for the first time even though they may have "heard" it before. Do you think there are other ways we can get that all important message to come through at the right time other than through scripture? I, of course, do.

My main concern with the Bible is that so much of the time, people seem to hold the book and the words themselves up to such a level of worship that it seems almost sacreligious to me. If I were to throw my Bible across the room or catch it on fire it would cause great strife with many individuals. But, without the "illumination" you speak of it is just words written on paper. At times I also think that to share these words with people is to be compared with telling them a story or reading them a nice poem. What if they are enjoying the darkness right now? How do you know who is ready for the illumination? Do you just share it with everyone in case they may be ready to see more clearly? If someone is truly seeking illumination and has no access to the word of God or noone to tell them of thier experience, can they find God without the help? I think so. A different method will present itself if we look hard enough.

It is like the example someone used about describing a particular food to one who had never tasted. It sounds nice and all, but I can't taste it. However I can taste something else that I can tell you about, but you will not taste mine either. We are both enjoying a wonderful experience and will be filled. How nice it would be if we could offer each other a bite of our particular food with only the itention of sharing the great experience, rather than trying to get the other to switch to our food. I think this thread is an attempt at that.

[Semele]

Originally posted by Gwion
Tis the time’s plague, when madmen lead the blind.
Gloucester, KING LEAR, IV, i

Gwion, yet again I just have to look at you and roll my eyes. You are truly a nut!:rolleyes:

[FLipsiDE]

http://www.scborromeo.org/truth/b2.htm

I don't know the scholarship of these dates but it jives with other things I have read that say Job was writen approx 500 BC.

Bel,
"Lastly, I would say one more thing. The bible has unmatched prophetic credibilty. In both fulfilled prophecy, and that which is taking place in recent generations."

As an apologetic I'm sure you will have answers for some of these questions and I am not looking for you to defend each one. But I do want to say that the issue of the Bibles fullfilled prophecies is far from being a closed case. Some of these are very serious and others are so stupid and picky that I personally would never use them. Regardless, they are almost all valid questions against the notion that "The bible has unmatched prophetic credibility."

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/prophecy.html

Some of my favorites:

The tribe of Judah will reign "until Shiloh," but Israel's first king (Saul) was from the tribe of Benjamin (Acts 13:21), and most of the time after this prophecy there was no king at all. Genesis 49:10

God promises to cast out many nations including the Canaanites and the Jebusites. But he was unable to fulfill his promise. Exodus 33:2

and numerous versions of this:
Jesus falsely prophesies that the end of the world will come within his listeners' lifetimes. Mark 9:1

[Semele]

Originally posted by FLipsiDE
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/prophecy.html

Some of my favorites:

The tribe of Judah will reign "until Shiloh," but Israel's first king (Saul) was from the tribe of Benjamin (Acts 13:21), and most of the time after this prophecy there was no king at all. Genesis 49:10

God promises to cast out many nations including the Canaanites and the Jebusites. But he was unable to fulfill his promise. Exodus 33:2

and numerous versions of this:
Jesus falsely prophesies that the end of the world will come within his listeners' lifetimes. Mark 9:1

Wow! I just can't imagine why anyone would want to spend that much time finding fault with the Bible. I mean is it to argue that the Bible is faleable or to feel arogant when denouncing it's value to you personally?

I personally don't follow scriptures for my own reasons, but I have never wanted to invest that much time in proving it wrong. I seriously do wonder what the makers of this site and those doing the research have accomplished in doing so? Just curious. I would think all the time and energy could be spent elsewhere for some gain. What do we gain by "disproving' or "invalidating" another religion or even another person?

I am not saying anyone here is doing this...I am just making an observation, in general because it has come to my mind.

[Demeter]

I believe that the reason people have spent so much time in finding the biblical contradictions (and a quick web search will provide many such sites and lists, as well as Christian answers to them) lies in the Christian literalist claims of historial accuracy and literal truth.

Skeptics will naturally respond to literalist claims point for point (having the same sort of mindset, only with Science as the great exclusive and literal god), and literalists try to find ways to answer these points, and it continues on forever.

I think most of us Pagans understand the uses of symbolism and myth and allegory, and intuitively understand how they are used in the Bible and in the classical Pagan faiths. We tend to be somewhat mystified by the literalists on the one hand and the skeptics on the other, neither of whom seem to have any grasp of symbolism and moreover seem to think that they MUST prove that they are RIGHT. It's all or nothing with them. By this point, their egos are fully invested, and they are so involved with fighting the alligators that they have forgotten their original intention to drain the swamp.

[mol]

Originally posted by Semele
Wow! I just can't imagine why anyone would want to spend that much time finding fault with the Bible. I mean is it to argue that the Bible is faleable or to feel arogant when denouncing it's value to you personally?

Some people put a lot of value in finding what they consider Truth. Absolute Truth. *shrugs*

[MasterMoon]

I just have one question..
When and if you find the destination or non destination of your religion, what are you going to do with it ??

I just have to know if religion is all a head game to all of you (who are religious) or do you really think something is going to happen.
If something is going to happen or not happen, what is it ? Not only what is it, but what kind of actions, attitudes etc. do you think has warrented this? If the point of your religion is just to live in the present and feel good, how does religion make this so?
Because the very nature of calling what you do a religion seperates you from the others who do not. Do you think you are somehow different from them?

Talk amoung yourselves..

p.s I currently do not have a world view

[Kaylara]

Originally posted by Semele
Wow! I just can't imagine why anyone would want to spend that much time finding fault with the Bible. I mean is it to argue that the Bible is faleable or to feel arogant when denouncing it's value to you personally?

I personally don't follow scriptures for my own reasons, but I have never wanted to invest that much time in proving it wrong. I seriously do wonder what the makers of this site and those doing the research have accomplished in doing so? Just curious. I would think all the time and energy could be spent elsewhere for some gain. What do we gain by "disproving' or "invalidating" another religion or even another person?

I am not saying anyone here is doing this...I am just making an observation, in general because it has come to my mind.

I've been wondering the same thing for a while...

[Semele]

Originally posted by MasterMoon

Because the very nature of calling what you do a religion seperates you from the others who do not. Do you think you are somehow different from them?


For me, I do not refer to it as religion, but rather my own spirituality. As to what I do with it or expect from it... what do you expect from taking a shower or eating a meal? You feel more comfortable and full right?

A few pages back you had asked what we would do when we found our path or God and mol answered Rest. You then asked him again what he would do with it not after he found it. I think you totally misunderstood his one word answer. With this comfort you rest.

Why don't you just make the simple accusation that religion or spirituality is a crutch for those who are too fearful or weak to live in comfort with the nothingness you embrace so eagerly? I don't think many would take offense in such an accusation. When I am crippled, a crutch gets me through life easier...plain and simple.

[MasterMoon]

posted by Semele
A few pages back you had asked what we would do when we found our path or God and mol answered Rest. You then asked him again what he would do with it not after he found it. I think you totally misunderstood his one word answer. With this comfort you rest.

So, your saying your search is over and you are resting now. Is that correct?
Are you also saying that the whole search for God, when it is over and you have it, you wont do anything with it, only rest?
It seems like a lot of work to do, then have nothing in the end.

It also seems like spirituality is being used like an emotional salve. It also doesnt seem important whether it is true or not, as long as it makes you feel better.
Perhaps a hot tub would be better than spirituality.

When I was a child I played games and pretended I was a super hero like spiderman.
In my opinion, spirituality is the same thing. A creation of fantasy to make yourself feel cool.
If this logic is wrong, explain why.
Because everything you can experience or feel spiritualty is imaginary. It has to be. Therefore all a figment of your wonderful imagination.
Now I didnt say this charade wasnt useful. It can be very useful to some. You can put all kinds of beautiful ideas in your mind and the result will be what you want them to be.
Whether you want to "rest" or appear to have all the answers. or treat people kindly or feel good.
I just dont see the need for it, because if Iwant to create an experience for myself I just do it. I use what I have and go forward.
Am I missing the point?
If so, what is the point?

[Belteshazzar]

Originally posted by Semele
Wow! I just can't imagine why anyone would want to spend that much time finding fault with the Bible. I mean is it to argue that the Bible is faleable or to feel arogant when denouncing it's value to you personally?

Semele,

This is an easy one. It is politics.

When someone believes the bible, it shapes their world view, which in effect shapes their vote or support for special interest groups. However, the bible does not teach politics per se. The bible teaches us to respect the governing authorites whoever that may be. That of course, does not imply that we (christians) should partake in immoral activities just because the government has made it legal to do so.

Through out history, there have been a number of attempts to destroy and ban the scriptures. Obviously, this is a way to control people, that is why I do not support "banning" or "book burning" unless the content encourages criminal behavior, ...things like child porn.

Voltaire once said that he was going to have bibles removed and banned from France. Today, Voltaire is gone ....and the French Bible Society owns one of his homes and has in times past, warehoused bibles there. ...Who says God doesn't have a sense of humor. :D

Anyway, there is a political agenda behind "most" of the so-called scholarship efforts to discredit and debunk the bible. Where do you think they get their funding? So if we search the net, we will find numerous sites for and against ....and I think Demeter put it quite well.

But to make my point, consider the latest archaeological discovery. A burial box with the inscription "James son of Joseph, brother of Jesus" . Immediately when this was made public, the spin masters went right to work, ...not even trying to veil the motives ...they just threw off the sheep skins and went right at it. But thank God, ...there are somes secular scholars who have stood in the gap ....and conducted themselves with integrity and sincerity ...to the shame of the liberal scholars who care nothing about truth. It has been authenticated, and dated at approx. 63 AD ....one year later than true scholars had previously dated his death.

btw ...according to tradition and some historical accounts, James was taken to the top of the Temple and given an opportunity to denounce his faith ....he would not and was then thrown from the Temple and sorely survived ...then the crowd stoned him and finished him off.

Flip,

"Shiloh" was an early reference for "messiah" or "moshiach", ..so Judah (house of David) did reign "until Shiloh".

If you would like to start a seperate thread, and take one contradiction or prophetic passage at a time, I would be glad answer your objections to the best of my ability.

Also, those scripture dates are all based on a precommitment to belief or hypothesis. A couple years ago there was a program about "prophetic scriptures" hosted by liberal shcolars ...,maybe the same ones. They said Daniel was written in 165 bc and gave absolutely no reason at all. So after researching it I discovered the entire reason was based on the fact that many of the prophetic passages had come to pass by 165 bc ....therefore it must have been written at or after that time. But here's the problem, they do this while ignoring the historical and circumstancial evidence to the contrary. However, it was an appearant bible contradiction that so-called scholars have ignored.

Daniel 1:1
In the third year of the reign of Jehoiakim king of Judah came Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon unto Jerusalem, and besieged it.

Jer 25:1
The word that came to Jeremiah concerning all the people of Judah in the fourth year of Jehoiakim the son of Josiah king of Judah, that was the first year of Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon;

See the contradiction. Now watch the application .....Daniel wrote from Babylon ....Jeremiah wrote from Jerusalem .....when comparing the Judaic and Babolonian calenders ....there is no contradiciton. And guess what ...that places Daniel in Babylon. And there are a number of other such evidences ...but I love this one ...becuase it is seen as a contradiction by so-called scholars.

I am sorry I do not have time to respond to so many replies. I am not going to have much time for the rest of this week ....so please carry on ...I have enjoyed reading the post.

Semele,

I do want to at least respond to your last post to me. It may not be until next week.

mol,

If you walk around the mountian ...what have you solved? It is still an obstacle that may cost you.

If "pride" or lets say a "Us vs. Them" mentality is a mountian in someone's life ...how how you suppose they can get around it ...won't it still be there?

But I do agree with you to a point. I believe that there are some "mountians" God has put in our path and has no intention of removing. But what I think Jesus is teaching is a "faith" principle, and not an absolute for every given situation.

Have a great week.

shaz

[Belteshazzar]

Originally posted by MasterMoon
So, your saying your search is over and you are resting now. Is that correct?
Are you also saying that the whole search for God, when it is over and you have it, you wont do anything with it, only rest?
It seems like a lot of work to do, then have nothing in the end.

Moon,
I cannot speak for mol and Semele ...but I agree that in a sense, you can rest. But that does not mean you don't continue to grow. Spiritual growth is a process. While physically I believe mankind has been created ...Sprirtually ...our natural lives are a creation process ...we are being fashioned partly by our volition.

I believe people are participating here (this thread) ...either because they seek spiritual growth ...or just can't rest.

So why are you here if you are so certiain there is nothing in Spirituality?


Originally posted by MasterMoon
It also seems like spirituality is being used like an emotional salve. It also doesnt seem important whether it is true or not, as long as it makes you feel better.
Perhaps a hot tub would be better than spirituality.

I have to partly agree with this statement. There are alot of "christians" like that, and ironically, they are refered to as "hot-tub christians". They have no real convictions, nor care to seek truth. Most of the people here know more about scripture that they do. I believe their spirituality is "emotional", because they don't really have a "premise" for the proclaimed convictions.

However, can you explain to me how my faith is imaginary? ..or a product of my own emotion and imagination?

To the contrary ..."my Faith came by hearing ...and "hearing" ...by the word of God" ....so where is my emotion and imagination in all of this?

We have heard this generalization several times. I would like to see how you can specifically defend it.

I look forward to your response.

shaz


(p.s. ..I was always batman)

[Semele]

Originally posted by MasterMoon
So, your saying your search is over and you are resting now. Is that correct?
Are you also saying that the whole search for God, when it is over and you have it, you wont do anything with it, only rest?
It seems like a lot of work to do, then have nothing in the end.


Ok, lets try this once more. Third time is a charm right?! ;) WITH God you rest, not because you found God and your work is now done. Say you need a softer pillow to rest...God is the softer pillow. Is that simple enough? We are able to rest better and feel better with a better understanding of God/Divine logic. I don't see it as a lot of work or that I have nothing in the end. I see it as enjoyable time and feel that I have everything in the end.


Originally posted by MasterMoon

It also seems like spirituality is being used like an emotional salve. It also doesnt seem important whether it is true or not, as long as it makes you feel better.

Absolutely it is a salve and as a nurse I am all for the healing touch of medication and love. As for whether it is true or not... who cares if it works right? I have seen children in great physical pain, caused by myself in attempt to make them healthy. As we are poking them and inflicting on them what they percieve to be torture, often a Teddy Bear in thier arms eases the pain. Now, we are pretty sure that there is no Scientific basis to this idea, but it does work and I embrace the idea fully.


Originally posted by MasterMoon

Perhaps a hot tub would be better than spirituality.

Well, I have both and I can assure you I get much more enjoyment and rest from my spirituality than the hot tub. Plus the effort it takes to maintain a proper chemical balance and routine care for the hot tub is way more intensive and time consuming than my spirituality. Plus there is always the fear that my son will get the door unlocked and fall into the hot tub...not so with my spirituality. For what it is worth our hot tub has sat empty for much of this season... and I haven't missed it like I would if my spiritual life were empty.


Originally posted by MasterMoon

When I was a child I played games and pretended I was a super hero like spiderman.
In my opinion, spirituality is the same thing. A creation of fantasy to make yourself feel cool.
If this logic is wrong, explain why.

Spirituality may be a figment of my imagination, but it doesn't make me feel cool... no web shooting ability here. ;) It makes me feel whole. How can I tell you that it is wrong... it is your opinion.


Originally posted by MasterMoon

I just dont see the need for it, because if Iwant to create an experience for myself I just do it. I use what I have and go forward.
Am I missing the point?
If so, what is the point?

I don't really see a point in it either for you, if you are fine where you are in your life. There were times in my life when I didn't want it or need it. However, I am much happier now. The only point then becomes, if you want it or need it..find it. If not, live your life as you wish. According to your idea we will live either way, it is just a matter of how happy we are and if we are imagining ourselves into a happier state. I personally like the happier state. I may be completely dillusional, but I prefer that to miserable.

[Semele]

Originally posted by Belteshazzar
I believe people are participating here (this thread) ...either because they seek spiritual growth ...or just can't rest.


Interesting thoughts. However, I think that often times it is only when people get to a certain level of comfort within thier own spirituality that they can begin to try to understand others. Like when I am finally comfortable with the idea that while Christianity didn't necessarily work for me, I can understand that it very much works for another.

Hmmmm, but then understanding that and embracing the idea that we are all spiritual beings on our own journey allows me to become closer to my own sense of God. I see how "illuminated" another is and that inspires me. So, yeah, I guess it is spiritual growth.

Don't mind me, I am just putting this all together for myself.

[Demeter]

Originally posted by Belteshazzar

But to make my point, consider the latest archaeological discovery. A burial box with the inscription "James son of Joseph, brother of Jesus" . Immediately when this was made public, the spin masters went right to work, ...not even trying to veil the motives ...they just threw off the sheep skins and went right at it. But thank God, ...there are somes secular scholars who have stood in the gap ....and conducted themselves with integrity and sincerity ...to the shame of the liberal scholars who care nothing about truth. It has been authenticated, and dated at approx. 63 AD ....one year later than true scholars had previously dated his death.

Shaz, I've been following this ... First off, it isn't the "latest" discovery ... the ossuary first showed up in 1926 and has received periodic attention since then. Even the person who authenticated it, who has a vested interest in its being the ossuary of that particular James ... wasn't willing to say for sure that it was. The best he could say was that there were perhaps 20 people fitting the description of "Ya'akov (Jacob or James, depending) son of Yosef (Joseph) brother of Yeshua (Joshua or Jesus, depending)" in Jerusalem at that time. That means that there is a 5% chance of it being the right James.

The ossuary has no provenance: that means nobody knows where it came from or what it was found in association with which might help date it. It was probably looted from its original site. It has no date of its own. Ossuaries of that type were used between 10 A.D. and 70 A.D. - so that gives us a 60-year span. Your 63 A.D. date comes from the assumption that it is the right one ... if James died in 62 A.D. the ossuary must be from 63 A.D. since ossuaries were used to put the bones in a year or so after death. But doing the dating that way is definitely putting the cart before the horse. There is absolutely no way, scientifically, to date the ossuary exactly.

You might also be interested to know that several other ossuaries from the same period also have the name Joshua or Jesus on them. The most important one was from an UNDISTURBED family tomb discovered in 1980 that contained individual ossuaries for Jesus son of Joseph, Mary, Joseph, Jude (the name of one of Jesus' brothers) and Mary (the name of one of Jesus' sisters). Along with these was a shard of pottery also bearing the name of Jesus and engraved with a fish. These were all found CONTAINING BONES. However, Israeli law says when bones are found, they must be sensitively reburied, although the containers may be kept. So the bones were properly reinterred -- and are now under an apartment building. This didn't get much play in the U.S., though it did get quite a bit of publicity in England in 1996. The problem here would be that it would definitely prove there was a Jesus, but that he did not bodily resurrect ... quite a dilemma for scholars, no?

[Belteshazzar]

Originally posted by Demeter
The best he could say was that there were perhaps 20 people fitting the description of "Ya'akov (Jacob or James, depending) son of Yosef (Joseph) brother of Yeshua (Joshua or Jesus, depending)" in Jerusalem at that time. That means that there is a 5% chance of it being the right James

Demeter,

This sounds like more of the same to me. Are you really saying that the mathematical probability of "James son of Joseph, brother of Jesus" was an everyday occurance? That most men named James had a father named Joseph and a brother named Jesus?

I read stuff like this that is carefully worded ....but when you really dig into it ..your asking "where's the beef"?

I am interseted in any evidence that can support the 5% chance theory.


Originally posted by Demeter
The most important one was from an UNDISTURBED family tomb discovered in 1980 that contained individual ossuaries for Jesus son of Joseph, Mary, Joseph, Jude (the name of one of Jesus' brothers) and Mary (the name of one of Jesus' sisters). Along with these was a shard of pottery also bearing the name of Jesus and engraved with a fish. These were all found CONTAINING BONES. However, Israeli law says when bones are found, they must be sensitively reburied, although the containers may be kept. So the bones were properly reinterred -- and are now under an apartment building. This didn't get much play in the U.S., though it did get quite a bit of publicity in England in 1996. The problem here would be that it would definitely prove there was a Jesus, but that he did not bodily resurrect ... quite a dilemma for scholars, no?

Highly unlikely.

1. If it could be proven ...it would have been. I know of no other faith/religion that has as many enemies as Christianity. The suggestion of a "cover-up" is nothing more than liberal rhetoric without any evidence. So where is the hard stuff?

2. Historically ...all the jews or anyone had to do is produce a body. Didn't happen. If Jesus lay in a family tomb in a marked ossuary.....we wouldn't be having this discussion. I don't think that is where I would hide the body ...and then die for a faith that I knew was false. :rolleyes:

3. Who wouldn't write the book if they could prove such a thing?

Problem for scholars? Only in the sense that real scholars have to waste so much time unscramling conspiracy theories.

Sorry Demeter ...we fall out of bed on this one. ;)

shaz

[FLipsiDE]

Semele, "My main concern with the Bible is that so much of the time, people seem to hold the book and the words themselves up to such a level of worship that it seems almost sacreligious to me."

I agree.

"What do we gain by "disproving' or "invalidating" another religion or even another person?"

I dated a literalist Lutheran girl for a while and my incoherent ramblings that "I just don't believe it. It doesn't make sense. I am not a Christian and I'm pretty happy with myself that way. Sorry." was simply not enough. Sites like this help clarify some complaints. If there are books and web pages out there to help people convert others then why shouldn't there be the same for the other side? I have dated two women now who's greatest feature in a man they dated was their Christianity. Not "are you a good guy" or "do I love you" but, "are you my type of Christian". By being able to say "See? The Bible is pretty hard to take literally. It's not that I am some deranged madman unable to grasp basic logic, but rather that I have some basis for not believing in a literalist bible and I'm not alone."

Bel, "Anyway, there is a political agenda behind "most" of the so-called scholarship efforts to discredit and debunk the bible."
Of course there is... are you implying that there isn't the same agenda in the other direction?

Liberal Christians have long had to defend themselves against a more fundamentalist viewpoint... you imply that the liberal viewpoint is wrong simply because it's liberal. The Liberal churches have a long history of good conscience and good actions. The Quakers have long been anti-war, equal rights, were involved in getting freed slaves to the North... their grasp that the Bible doesn't NEED to be literal to be the Truth is what allows them to work so well with others.

There seems to be a lot of hatred for some vague "liberal conspiracy" but no fear whatsoever of any "literalist conspiracy". I'm not saying that either exist... what I think is that there are people with different views of the same text each find ing their own "proofs". But it is fallacy to believe that one exists without the other and that one has political/theological motives that are somehow more or less pure than the other.

Bel, I agree with you that the spiritual path is not a place but an ongiong process. But I still fail to see what you want Moon to say about your faith not being imaginary. Give me a kilo of your faith. Tell me how long it is or how it interacts with weak atomic force. Give me an equation to show me how it increases or decreases over time. Even better, show me how your faith is unlike or like the faith of a devout Muslim or Hindu or Native American or Quabbalistic mage or South American Shaman. Faith IS an emotional and an imaginative response... if you had no imagination then faith probably wouldn't mean anything to you at all. Was it the stunning internal logic of the Christian theology that won your heart over to Christ or was it the beauty and the feeling that "this is right" that won you over?

Hmm... I wonder. Some of your arguments sound amazingly like arguments I've had with other pagans concerning the nature of magick. I strongly suspect that your definition of faith and some people's definition of magick are similar or at least have a number of serious similarities. Don't be thrown off by the idea that magick is only an active thing that someone does... many people believe that there is an active but unasked for part of magick too. Syncronicity and Karma have a lot of ties to magick.

You deny that faith is imaginary because it has real effects in your life. Your faith has shown you things you would have missed if you had not been living in the faith, there are things that happened specifically because you had faith and things that you think didn't happen because your faith protected you. Your whole world is different because you have faith so it can't possibly be imaginary because it's effects are empirical. Replace the word faith with the phrase "magickal worldview" and I have heard the same from Wiccan friends of mine. I hope that I am getting closer to what you are talking about here.

Mastermoon. You DO have a worldview. It is impossible to be anyone but maybe the Buddha and not have one. It is key to being human. If you can look at anything and draw a related opinion from it then you have a worldview. for example: You see Brittany Spears and think "pop star bubblegum" or look at anything and see "liberal" or "conservative" or "foolish" or "naive" or "good" or "evil" or "stupid" then you have a worldview. If you think you have freed yourself from having a worldview, go find a buddhist monk and tell them you are a Boddhisatva.

Semele, I agree... the more comfortable and solid you are in your faith the more likely you are to understand or be interested in the faith of others. I think the opposite is also true... the less solid you are in your faith the more threatened by the faith of others you are.

Bel, Some of the examples listed there are pretty shallow or weak. Others are more difficult and some several levels. So, what about the other ones? Most notably the many parts where Jesus says he will return within the lifetime of his listeners?

[Belteshazzar]

Originally posted by FLipsiDE
But I still fail to see what you want Moon to say about your faith not being imaginary. Give me a kilo of your faith.

Flip,

I have just a minute, then I am gone for the week.

You are asking for a kilo of faith, yet I haven't recieved my kilo of gravity.

I would also like to add to that order ...a kilo of light.

btw ...What is light to a blind man anyway? ...Imagination?



I will do my best to catch up when I return. Have a great weekend everyone!

shaz

[Belteshazzar]

Originally posted by FLipsiDE
Liberal Christians have long had to defend themselves against a more fundamentalist viewpoint... you imply that the liberal viewpoint is wrong simply because it's liberal

Flip,

Anyone who contradicts and ignores really good evidence SHOULD defend themselves ...if they expect sound minded person to take them seriously.

I gave you a perfect example with Daniel ...would you like more?


Originally posted by FLipsiDE
The Liberal churches have a long history of good conscience and good actions.

And what has this to do with good scholarship?

shaz

[Semele]

Originally posted by Belteshazzar
I know of no other faith/religion that has as many enemies as Christianity.

I think I may know of a few Muslim folks who might just disagree with that statement right now.:p

[Semele]

Originally posted by FLipsiDE
I have dated two women now who's greatest feature in a man they dated was their Christianity. Not "are you a good guy" or "do I love you" but, "are you my type of Christian".

This is something that has always bugged me too. I hate to have someone described to me as a Christian or even as very religious...like that statement alone should clear up any fears or doubts about the person. I would much rather hear that they are a caring individual or somethig similar.


Originally posted by FLipsiDE

There seems to be a lot of hatred for some vague "liberal conspiracy" but no fear whatsoever of any "literalist conspiracy". I'm not saying that either exist... what I think is that there are people with different views of the same text each find ing their own "proofs". But it is fallacy to believe that one exists without the other and that one has political/theological motives that are somehow more or less pure than the other.

This is true... both sides of the fence so to speak. However, my question is, what does it matter what scholars and such are arguing? If the Bible is indeed the word of God and we are truly trying to read it and hear its message, can it not be assumed that we will have aid from God in understanding it? I guess sometimes I just get tired of seeking approval from everyone else that doesn't matter to me and I see this the same way. This is one of my biggest objections to pastoral services in general. If they were there to listen and provide comfort it would be fine, but so much of the time they give out thier own versions of advice that they think is God's message. I say,hold my hand and comfort me as I find my way, but do not try to lead me. Just like when we work hard to accomplish something it means so much more to us then if someone just handed it over to us. No spirituality on a silver platter for me thanks!


Originally posted by FLipsiDE

Syncronicity and Karma have a lot of ties to magick.


For some perhaps. However there are many a great magicians who place zero value in Karma.



Originally posted by FLipsiDE

I think the opposite is also true... the less solid you are in your faith the more threatened by the faith of others you are.

I couldn't have said it better myself. Sadly enough, I think this is also a learned behavior that is passed down to followers of certain religions.

[mol]

Originally posted by Semele

For some perhaps. However there are many a great magicians who place zero value in Karma.

Like me, for instance. Although, I dont consider myself a great musician...

[Semele]

Originally posted by mol
Like me, for instance. Although, I dont consider myself a great musician...

Musician??? Tee-Hee!! If anyone wants to judge for thierself you can go to the music forum and download an MP3 of his band 13West!! :D

[mol]

Wow, was that a Freudian slip or what!?

Magician! That is what I meant....but the other too...whatever. :rolleyes:

[Semele]

Originally posted by mol
Wow, was that a Freudian slip or what!?

Magician! That is what I meant....but the other too...whatever. :rolleyes:


Ah...you are too modest. I think you are a magical musician or is that a musical magician??? Oh well either way I guess!:loveduv:

[amberlaine]

Originally posted by Semele
Ah...you are too modest. I think you are a magical musician or is that a musical magician??? Oh well either way I guess!:loveduv:

Umm, where the barf-i-con??

::spews::

who am i kidding? i think he's a damn good musician myself....

[Semele]

Originally posted by amberlaine
Umm, where the barf-i-con??

::spews::

who am i kidding? i think he's a damn good musician myself....

:sick:

There ya go!

[FLipsiDE]

Gone for a week? Vacation I hope. Have fun my friend. :)

A kilo is a very specific effect of gravity. :) I was begging the question there.

A Kilo of light? If we make the adjustment to the proper measurement then sure... what would you like you light measured in? Energy? Weight (We can measure the pressure that light places on onbjects. For example, 7 lbs of light (I think) is the amount of pressure the light from the sun places on the surface of the earth on a nice day. :) velocity? The question of faith is to give me a measurement. Any measurement appropriate to the question. Could we convert (ha ha... get it. Convert?) faith into joules of energy? Lbs per. square inches of pressure? Cost per. bushel? We could call the meaurements Prayer Units or.. ohh even better, Halos. :) heh heh. Apply the metrics to it... "Amazing! That old woman produces over 30 Kilohalos of faith per hour!"

Whatever it is this would have to be an objective meaurement. I think the CLOSEST you could come would be to measuring the brain activity of someone meditating and calculating the energy of it.

To a blind man light is still heat. To a blind man light still feeds the plants to produce the air he breathes. We can't see into the Infra-red spectrum naturally but we do not doubt it exists because we can measure and use it. Regardless of our religion or lack therof. We can build devices to measure ultra-sound, catch nutronios and see evidence for planets that are farther away in time than young earth creationists say the universe has been around. All accomplished even though we are as blind men in these spectrums.

As far as Daniel, sure give me more. But I have already stated that some of the contradictions are flimsy or open to interpretation... but some are very good. Like the many that say the second coming was supposed to happen 2,000 years ago. (Unless of course the bible is not literal. Which is fine. Non-literal things are wonderful. Why does modern literalist Christianity need so badly to prove itself to empirical science while at the same time attacking it on other fronts?)

As far as a history of bad science goes, the literalists are the ones who have been proven liars often enough that I wouldn't be throwing that card around too high handedly. The Christian Coalition lying about it's membership for years, Fundamentalists who have found "proof" that man and dinosaur lived at the same time which turned out to be fake, children being treated (or not treated) because of their religious restrictions (Jehovas witnesses used to do this and other small groups do too). Remember the old TV special about how they found Noah's ark? I think you can get it on video now even though it turned out to be totally fabricated. Ask a literalist about how much the geological record supports the idea of a world wide flood. As the grandson of a fossil hunting geologist I say "not at all."

Maybe this article on the ossuary is another part of poor liberal scholarship but it's still interesting:
http://web.israelinsider.com/bin/en.jsp?enPage=ViewsPage&enDisplay=view&enDispWhat=object&enDispWho=Article%5El1601&enZone=Views&enVersion=0

I know that Time said that various groups had determined that the box was genuine so I will try and find more articles about it today. The arguments that she makes in the article I provided seem sound in theory and I wonder how other experts will see this...

Yeah. Christians do not top my list of most hated. Last time I checked it was a born again senator who was trying to keep Wiccans out of the military, it was a born again Televangelist (or two... or three of 'em) who declared that "Islam was a religion of hate" and that Mohammad was a "demon possessed pedophile".

So where are Christian's hated so badly? Not in America where they make up some 70-80% of all Americans (if you accept Catholics and Mormons as Christians anyway). Does Europe hate Christians? Not really considering they have religious schools in England that provide public education and Christian parties play large roles in the government of Germany and France. So how about in Bosnia? Yeah... some people hate Christians there... of course, the Christians there were also accused of war crimes for trying to genocidaly wipe out the Muslims there, so they may have a point. Hmm... that leaves China and the Middle east as I do not think the massively Catholic South America has problems specifically with Christians and Africa is an odd place where things get confusing. In India they might hate Christians but they hate the Muslims in Kashmir much much more. SO, the Middle east and China. Both places with strict rules on religion. China does not approve of western missionaries and has done terrible things to Christians there. But to be fair, they also hate ANY religion that they don't directly control and their human right's abuses are well known. In the Muslim countries (inc parts of africa) it is ILLEGAL to preach anything other than the Muslim faith. You are only allowed to be a Christian or a Jew if you were born that way or converted on your own. So is this bad? Yes! Does this mean they hate Christians? In some cases definately. Is this because you are Christian or is it just because you are not a Muslim? It's because Christian Missionaries go over there specifically to spread the word and they get caught or turned in.

So. Christianity is one of the largest faiths in the world. I do not disagree that many people DO hate it. Including other Christians. (Jehovas, some Pentacostals and some Baptists) Is it the most hated? No. Muslims, Sufis, Ba'hai, Jews all have enough members murdered each year to beat our Christians... I would say Judaism counts as the most hated ever. Read their history and you will see what it means to be REALLY hated. The list of hate crimes against Judaism may have peaked with Hitler but that is just the tip of a very long, very bloody and unfair war against people who were different. After some new Hitler kills millions of Christians with poison gas or ovens, then come talk to me about how hated you are. My second choice would be Muslims who suffered the Crusades and who are having such problems with acceptance now, both internationally and internally.

Semele,
I would think God would have a vested interest in making sure that when you read His book that you would understand his words. In fact, I bet Bel would agree with me... you HAVE to have God help you read his book. The Bible makes the most sense ot those who can see it through the eyes of faith.

Of course that gets embarassing when Mormons, Catholics and Protestants all come to different conclusions. In a one true way model, someone else always has to be wrong, even if they say it's 'minor' wrong. I think the difference between Pope/no-pope, Book of Mormon/no-book of Mormon would be pretty non-trivial a point to a literalist.

[Semele]

Originally posted by FLipsiDE
Could we convert (ha ha... get it. Convert?) faith into joules of energy? Lbs per. square inches of pressure? Cost per. bushel? We could call the meaurements Prayer Units or.. ohh even better, Halos. :) heh heh. Apply the metrics to it... "Amazing! That old woman produces over 30 Kilohalos of faith per hour!"


I am not sure that we could ever measure the energy, but many can see it and I think most all of us can feel it. I have experimented with seeing auras and such and have been successful, however it is a little too much effort and I would rather feel them than see them. Interestingly enough since my recent vision problems I see Halo's around lights and such very often!! :)

In fact there is a NANDA approved nursing diagnosis called Energy Field Disturbance. All throughout nursing school when we had to write up these horrendously long and drawn out care plans, my goal was to actually use the silly thing. I never did figure out how to make it fit. One thing about the process of care plans is that you give it a diagnosis, like altered fluid volume related to hyperemesis, and then you list the plan of action followed by documentation of why that would work and you put in how the patient responded to the care. So maybe I could find someone who may have fit the energy field disturbance, but related to what?? And how to fix it and where in the world to find the documentation? Certainly not in any of my nursing books. I did find it interesting though that such a liberal organization as nursing would allow the admission of an energy related dignosis. I mean is there any more scientific and measurement related field out there? We rate everything from the patients pain to thier response and how they enjoyed thier stay.

[MasterMoon]

Originally posted by flip side
Mastermoon. You DO have a worldview. It is impossible to be anyone but maybe the Buddha and not have one. It is key to being human. If you can look at anything and draw a related opinion from it then you have a worldview. for example: You see Brittany Spears and think "pop star bubblegum" or look at anything and see "liberal" or "conservative" or "foolish" or "naive" or "good" or "evil" or "stupid" then you have a worldview. If you think you have freed yourself from having a worldview, go find a buddhist monk and tell them you are a Boddhisatva.

Reply by mastermoon:
I dont have a world view.
Whenever I get one I instantly destroy it.
Dont read any of these words they are false.

[Illuminatus]

Mastermoon,

The null set {}, or the empty set in mathematics, is still a set. Even though it's empty, it's just as valid a domain as the real set {R}, the imaginary set {i} or any of their infinite subsidiaries.

Rush said it better: If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice!

[FLipsiDE]

Semele,

That's fascinating. I wonder what it's for also... EFD. Even sounds cool. heh heh. But are aura's faith? When I think of auras I think of the body's electrical field... when we did Kerlian photography in college (An after hours parapsych class) it seemed related more to the body than to faith. I know that friends who see auras use them to describe ailments of the body or wounds in the psyche. Like an almost invisible mood ring/CAT scan. So I think my question still stands... I would like to see an objective measure of faith. I think auras are very cool, I just am not convinced that a measurement of one is a good indication of the other. :)

More debate on the ossuary. There is a lot of suspicion about where the box came from... the collector is supposed to be an expert but someone doesn't understand what's written on the box or it's importance. Won't say where he got it. May be lying about when he bought it. Lied about having it a few months before.

[MasterMoon]

Illuminatus,

Very good to chat with you again.
Your point in confusing to me. Your saying that a "worldview" is a thing. It cannot be because is worldview is only a thought. Again, it is the fine line between REAL and IMAGINARY. Then, there is no such thing as a worldview, therefore I do not have one.
Of course there is a stream of thoughts going on somewhere inside my head. (for lack of a better way of expressing this)
And yes there are thoughts that appeal to me more than others.
So, I choose to work all the time instead of sleeping. These choices shape my personaltiy and make me stand out or not stand out as the case may be; from the masses.
A worldview to me means: what do I think is the actual "big picture" I mean what is actually going on here?
To that question, I dont have anything to say.
Thats what I mean by no world view

[Raevyn]

A worldview is a set of thoughts; a model from which we approach the world and which we update, delete, and add from. It is a result of our past experiences, our beliefs, and morals/ethics.

Whether it's a physical "thing" or not has no bearing on whether it exists; unless you're suggesting that thoughts are also nonexistent (which actually maybe you are).

"A worldview to me means: what do I think is the actual "big picture" I mean what is actually going on here?"

Here, having "nothing to say" is in itself an answer. It's actually just like null.

Now I have to scroll back 1735 pages to see why that was brought up or what the point was anyway :D

[MasterMoon]

I am going to try to say this again.
I do not have a world view.
In order to have that I would need a belief, of which I have none.
Please dont try to tell me what I believe or dont believe.
If I did have one, I would destroy it.

[Semele]

Originally posted by FLipsiDE
Semele,

That's fascinating. I wonder what it's for also... EFD. Even sounds cool. heh heh. But are aura's faith? When I think of auras I think of the body's electrical field...

No, they are not Faith at all in my opinion. In fact, all things contai an aura...living and nonliving. Only living things have auras that seem to change..... for whatever reason.

[Belteshazzar]

Originally posted by FLipsiDE
Gone for a week? Vacation I hope. Have fun my friend. :)

Greetings Flip,

Thanks.

It wasn't a vacation, but I did very much enjoy the Apologetics Conference. :)


Originally posted by FLipsiDE
A Kilo of light? If we make the adjustment to the proper measurement then sure... what would you like you light measured in? Energy? Weight (We can measure the pressure that light places on onbjects. For example, 7 lbs of light (I think) is the amount of pressure the light from the sun places on the surface of the earth on a nice day

Actually I asked a scientist friend this question before I posted so I guess you could say I was begging the question here as well. :)

Have you yourself ever measured light, or do you trust the teachings and methodology of modern science, After all, science is constantly correcting itself. On the other hand, if you have seen first hand how light can be weighed then you have every reason to believe in a "kilo of light". However, most will believe it because "science says so".

In contrast, many were healed in Jesus public ministry because the had faith in the word of God. Think about this ...if you were a Jew who truly believed in the coming of Moshiach ....then consequently, you would know the signs and promises of His coming. That is why Jesus said to the Pharisees ..."how is it you can understand the meteriological signs and not understand the signs of the times". Notice this verse:

Malachi 4:2
But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings (kanaph);

The "sun of righteousnes" was a messianic term like "the morning star". The word translated "wings" is the Hebrew word "kanaph". Which means wing, extremity, edge, winged, border, corner. Notice this OT command given by Moses.

Deuteronomy 22:12
"You shall make yourself tassels on the four corners (kanaph) of your garment with which you cover yourself.

From that day till the present day, Jews have worn a "tallit" or "prayer shawl" which in the bible has been translated mantle, garment, robe, outer garment, cloak ect.. The tassel that is attached to the "kanaph"(wings) is called a "tzitzit", and is translated hem or tassel. I could really start a thread on the topic, but I just want to illustarte a valid point from an objective point of view.

Jesus was a Torah observant Jew. (some Christians haven't figured this out yet) That is why He could look the legalist of His day in the eye and say "can any of you prove me guilty of sin". Jesus, like all Torah observant Jews wore a "tallit". Those who recognized He was the Messiah and knew the Word of God, (particualrly Malachi 4:2 ) ...by faith, touched the hem (tallit) of His garment, and were healed!

* Notice this is niether my opinion or imagination *

Mathhew 14:35
And when the men of that place recognized Him, they sent word into all that surrounding district and brought to Him all who were sick;
14:36
and they implored Him that they might just touch the fringe of His cloak; and as many as touched it were cured.

I will spare you the scripture quotation, but the woman in Mark 5 was another who was healed the second she touched the "hem of His garment" ...and Jesus said to her "your faith has made you whole".

The point is that the "physical healing" was empiracal evidence for those people and those who witnessed it ....empiracal evidence. The "faith" that did the healing came from the knowledge of the truth of the Word of God. As it says in Romans ..."Faith cometh by hearing ....hearing by the Word of God." Faith is an objective reality, not emotion or imagimation, even if it cannot be seen or weighed. Anyone who would disagree is free to do so, but they obviously do NOT have what I call, and what the bible calls ....Faith.

This leaves only one argument, that is that you don't believe the bible and/or you don't believe those like myself who can testify to the power and presence of faith in their lives. Which brings me to the point I have made a while ago in my "Job" illustration, ...people believe in a number of things that they have no evidence of. Like the "wieght of light" for example. Who on this forum has ever wieghed it? Yet no one is going to argue against the institution of science, so they simply just accept it without demanding a shred of evidence, demonstartion or proof. So why the double-standard with Faith?


Originally posted by FLipsiDE
To a blind man light is still heat.

Flip ...so if you turn a light on in dark room it will become noticably warmer?

First, a blind man would have to be exposed intense amounts of light before he could be sensative to heat. Therefore, his perception of "light" is mostly guess work based on the limitations of his physical condition. I think this is a perfect anaology of a person without faith. Like a blindman, he must rely on guess work due to his/her Spiritual limitations. So it is not suprising to me to here someone say that "faith is taught emotion" as unprovable as that may be.


Originally posted by FLipsiDE
[QUOTE]As far as a history of bad science goes, the literalists are the ones who have been proven liars often enough that I wouldn't be throwing that card around too high handedly. The Christian Coalition lying about it's membership for years, Fundamentalists who have found "proof" that man and dinosaur lived at the same time which turned out to be fake,

Flip ...scripture does not say "man" is inerrant".

However, I have heard alot about the claimed fossil evidence of man and dinosaur cohabitating and I would be unbiasly interested in the evidence that it is a fake.


Originally posted by FLipsiDE
[QUOTE]So where are Christian's hated so badly? Not in America where they make up some 70-80% of all Americans (if you accept Catholics and Mormons as Christians anyway).

Flip ....I think your are generously guessing on this one.

First, even if you include Catholics, Mormans and others, you still have to count those who profess to follow Jesus Christ. If one is not "following" Christ, then what is the threat of his/her Christianity. According to your numbers ....7 or 8 out of every 10 people we might meet on the street profess to folow Jesus Christ. ...Man! ....Tell me where you live ....cuz down here in the so-called bible belt ....it appears to be the reverse of your numbers.

Have a good day ...and watch out for all those "christians"!

[Belteshazzar]

Originally posted by MasterMoon
There is no salvation.
There is no enlightenment
There is no god.
There is no christ
All there is ..is the fear..the fear inside of you. That is what motivates every single one of your actions. At least that's my opinion. Of course, this entire post is opinion. Since none of it's real.
TTYL

Moon,

This is a world view. That includes the disclaimer at the end.

[eited] Allow me to boil it down for you. From everything you have posted, your world view is "in the box". In other words, nothing exist outside the box according to your world view.

In the Christian world view, God exist "outside" the box, but can operate in the box.

So actually Moon, your world view is consistant with the Pagan world view as I understand it. (the naturalist world view as well)

Don't be so defensive that you have a world view. It is an indicator that you are not dead yet.

shaz

[Raevyn]

Originally posted by MasterMoon
In order to have that I would need a belief, of which I have none. Please dont try to tell me what I believe or dont believe.
If I did have one, I would destroy it.


A worldview is a set of thoughts; a model from which we approach the world and which we update, delete, and add from. It is a result of our past experiences, our beliefs, and morals/ethics.

a) a worldview isn't just "a belief"

b) you have no belief about what? do you believe you can type? do you believe you're reading this post now? do you believe you can respond to this post? do you think you'll destroy that belief and not hit reply now? there isn't just "one belief"

c) I didn't tell you what you believe, I said you have a world view. Big difference.

d) have to echo what bel said - don't be so defensive about it, it is proof you aren't dead

[FLipsiDE]

Welcome back Bel!

Bel: "Have you yourself ever measured light, or do you trust the teachings and methodology of modern science, After all, science is constantly correcting itself. On the other hand, if you have seen first hand how light can be weighed then you have every reason to believe in a "kilo of light". However, most will believe it because "science says so"."

Have you yourself ever measured faith, or do you trust the teachings and methodology of modern literalist Christianity, after all, religio… umm. No. Strike that, they don’t correct themselves. Not consciously anyways. Funny how there aren’t nearly as many preachers defending slavery today as there were 100 years ago and I haven’t heard of anyone trying to round up the Indians, take their kids from them and put them Catholic boarding school either. Sure seemed like a good idea back then. You would think that a religion with an all powerful all knowing all loving God would not have allowed the bible verses that say slavery is OK in the first place… or he would have put something useful in the bible like “Thou shalt not treat those who are of different skin color than thee as somehow lesser.” Or “Women should not be viewed as ‘loot’ from your raids.” Or “Not woman, nor child nor man should be abused.” Or “Having different opinions on how I should be worshipped is not call for murder.”

Anyways… I digress. You are correct. Science is self correcting. It was scientists who call out their peers when one does bad research (bad fossil identifications for example) or publishes fabricated or incomplete science. (Like the guy who got in trouble for his falsified superconductor research recently… or the cold fusion fiasco.) But self correction is possible because science is empirical. You cannot self correct Christianity because it’s not empirical. If it were not empirical then there would be no doubt about it’s truth and no serious difference in worship within umbrella term “Christianity” because you could run experiments that proved it.

You ask if I have ever measured light and I have to admit… I am not a scientist. My college studies were directed towards Japanese (long forgotten unfortunately) and computer science. But my girlfriend is a trained biologist and her brother is a physicist working on his PHD at Duke university. He has recently helped build an atomic microscope and has published papers using this microscope. But if I had said that I measured light you could have always changed the question to ask me about my knowledge on molecular genetics or paleontology or magnetism… the point of your question was a deeper question of “Why is your Faith in scientists OK but my Faith in Christ’s promise not ok?” The answer is part linguistics and part science. I do not have “Faith” in scientists the same was that you have “Faith” in Jesus. The word is the same but the terms are different. In fact, I do not need to have faith in any individual scientist at all… whenever a scientist makes a claim it is submitted to a peer review journal and anyone who has issues with it can put their critiques against it. If it passes peer review then it will be accepted as a working hypothesis and it is quite possible (Depending on the subject) that other scientists will perform nearly identical experiments or experiments that are based off of the findings of the first experiment. If either of these groups come up with results that are greatly at odds with the first results then more research is done and the process continues. This process of research and review and research and review is meant to filter as much opinion and poor methodology from the system as possible. With faith in a divine agent there is no such process. It is theology, not science. If you say “I have found the Truth and it is through the salvation of Christ” and I say “I have found the Truth and it is through the beauty of Paganism” and others choose Allah or Buddha or Krishna or crystals or a particular mountain or animals or stars or HUBCAPS… there is no empirical way of saying “you are wrong”. That is a completely different use of the word faith and confusion between them is partially to blame but so is an encouragement of this misunderstanding by people who want to turn science issues into opinion issues.

You ask me why I take the word of a scientist that they have done such and such research but not the word of your savior who has made certain promises and threats. But I could turn the question around now and ask you the same thing...

Bel: "Jesus was a Torah observant Jew. (some Christians haven't figured this out yet) That is why He could look the legalist of His day in the eye and say "can any of you prove me guilty of sin". Jesus, like all Torah observant Jews wore a "tallit". Those who recognized He was the Messiah and knew the Word of God, (particularly Malachi 4:2 ) ...by faith, touched the hem (tallit) of His garment, and were healed!"

So. Did Jesus come and physically heal you in front of the whole synagogue? If not, then you are taking someone's word for it at LEAST as much as I am. And I know that I can go and actually DO the experiments and test another scientist's claims. The examples I mentioned, the fossils and the fabricated superconductor research were uncovered by OTHER SCIENTISTS doing what scientists do. If you make a claim "The moon is made of chunky peanut butter" then you had better be able to back it up. If you claimed that Jesus came in the flesh and healed someone then you would need similar proof.

So you were not healed by Jesus at the Synagogue... but you happily accept that this happened AND you accept an entire faith based on this supposed event all without any physical truth!

Good! Faith is not supposed to be rational.

My Aunt was a white witch when she was growing up and her coven healed a woman of breast cancer. I have other friends who have had miraculous recoveries... Buddha could do amazing things as could some other monks of his age, although they lost their enlightenment by doing so. But even though I have great respect for the Buddha and his religion(s) I am not a Buddhist. Acceptance of the occurance is no reason to accept the rest of the faith. Most Pagans accept the idea that people can be healed through prayer or magick or crystals or herbs or chanting but my acceptance of my Aunt's healing energy, or another friend's miraculous recovery, is no reason to accept their faiths. (Which would be tough. Very different people and very different faiths.)

Your use of the term "Empirical" seems to differ from mine. Do you have medical records with associated lab results and illness history from the people who were "healed" by Jesus? Did you personally watch this healing? Did you see the wounds closing, the limbs regrowing? Did you take pictures? Blood tests? No. You didn't because if it happened then it happened long, long before you were born and in fact, it IS your opinion. Maybe an opinion held by some of your friends also, but an opinion nonetheless. If pressed for proof the most you could offer is the Bible. (which is why you accept these claims of healing as truth. Do you regard reports of healing or visions in any non-biblical source to be as immediately true as those you read about in the Bible? Why not?)

What about this woman who's husband was "healed" by Mother Teresa? If people hadn't looked at the case very carefully, would anyone have doubted that the Mother Teresa had healed him? If they had written it into a book would you have believed it?


Bel: " Like the "wieght of light" for example. Who on this forum has ever wieghed it? Yet no one is going to argue against the institution of science, so they simply just accept it without demanding a shred of evidence, demonstartion or proof. "

But you are happy to do so regarding religion without blinking an eye? Your literalists are scrapping the bottom of the bucket, desperately, insanely happy that an Ossuary of the brother of Jesus has been found... THAT'S how desperate they are to prove themselves to science. The brother of the god made man’s coffin. It’s like an e-bay sale for the shoes of the woman who used to date Prince!

Your attacks on science as "you've never done it so how can you say" are absurd. If science were lies they would involve EVERY single legitimate scientist in the world, requiring them to be lying constantly (But somehow creating things that worked, somehow based off of their falsified theories). But even overlooking the idea of a worldwide conspiracy and I'll throw in one more thing in it's place. My probable brother in law is a Physicist. He has built (as part of a team) an atomic microscope and has published papers on and from it. So now my girlfriend's brother is part of a worldwide conspiracy of scientists who invent things based off of lies?

So now you have a lying consipiracy of Scientists and a Liberal consipiracy of Anti-Christian Christians. :)

As far as the Man-Dinosaur footprints:
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/paluxy.html
Maybe even more telling is the lack of response from www.trueorigins.org . (I didn't find anything there about the Paluxy footprints in a quick scan. Deeper digging might.)

I agree totally. People DO believe a lot of things they do not have evidence for. In fact, even when there is evidence against they seem to do a pretty good job. I DO believe in the power of faith in a person's life. I have many Pagan, Wiccan, Christian friends who believe seriously in their Faith and the world is FULL of people who live better lives (in their own opinions) because of their Faith. So there is no double standard for faith and science, just respect where respect is due. (and that goes BOTH ways.)

[MasterMoon]

Ok...you say I have a world view..I say I dont...conversation over.

Next


My quote:
There is no salvation.
There is no enlightenment
There is no god.
There is no christ
All there is ..is the fear..the fear inside of you. That is what motivates every single one of your actions. At least that's my opinion. Of course, this entire post is opinion. Since none of it's real.

Here I am not saying this is what I believe, although I did use the word "opinion" I wish I had a different word for it.
I am simply pointing out that everything you know is false.
So is everything I know...all false..
This is all I have to say....

[Semele]

Originally posted by FLipsiDE
I agree totally. People DO believe a lot of things they do not have evidence for. In fact, even when there is evidence against they seem to do a pretty good job. I DO believe in the power of faith in a person's life. I have many Pagan, Wiccan, Christian friends who believe seriously in their Faith and the world is FULL of people who live better lives (in their own opinions) because of their Faith. So there is no double standard for faith and science, just respect where respect is due. (and that goes BOTH ways.)

I think this paragraph pretty much sums up the whole discussion on empirical truth. Niether of you can prove or disprove the others point anymore than you can your own point. However you each still believe just as much that it is the truth.

As far as the healings, even in this day of modern science it isn't always possible to do tests and determine the exact cause of a healing. Someone can have inoperable brain cancer and go to a healer after several attempts and failures at healing through modern medicine. At the next check up there may show significant reducton or even disappearance of the cancer. But, how can we prove where it went or how it happened? Sometimes the body heals itself with no apparent healing from outside sources...do we always assume that anything we can't prove medically is from God? Or do we take the other route alltogether and try to find a scientific explanation, even if it is farfetched, just so we can explain it? In the end, what difference does it make where credit is given? I find it hard to believe God is somewhere going, "Oh man, that was my point." :D

[MasterMoon]

Posted by Shaz:
Allow me to boil it down for you. From everything you have posted, your world view is "in the box". In other words, nothing exist outside the box according to your world view.

By Moon:
Shaz, let me see ifI can boil it down for you:
I reject the box and everything outside the box.
This includes everything real and imaginary from both locations/nonlocations.
I reject any notion of a worldview.
I reject all philosophy, that includes the theory of God.
Whatever else you can dream up, I reject that too.
I also reject people telling me what I think and putting words in my mouth.
I hope I made my point clearly.
Have a nice day!

ad hoc ad loc and quid pro quo, so little time so much to know!

[mol]

Originally posted by MasterMoon
...all false..

:rolleyes:

(True and False be important key words to me...I just had to put this one in bold)

[Belteshazzar]

*snip*

Shaz, I apologize. I was replying to you and accidentally hit the edit button. Being an admin...it lets me do that anywhere. I didnt realize it until I had submitted and it was posted as you. The only part I have saved is the section I grabbed to reply to.

Now I feel like a complete moron.

I am very sorry.

mol

[mol]

Originally posted by shaz

"love your nieghbor as yourself" works for me. I have enough sense to know that includes people from all racial, ethnic and religious backgrounds. ....."respect ALL men/women because they were made in the image of God" ....So simple, who could not understand it?

Plenty of people obviously have not understood it. Including, dare I say, over half of the people following Christianity. More in previous years I can suspect. In fact, I am currently doing a study on the Crusades. Obviously, a whole bunch of people who didnt understand.

Im going to make a statement that hopefully will not be taken the wrong way.

Instead of spreading the word of Christ to people that do not know him, maybe some of the folks already walking the Christian Path should be taught a little more.

Ive always thought that strange. Witness, save em, baptise em, and then leave to a preacher who will teach them a completely different way than the next, probably contradicting what the original person who witnessed to them has said. *sigh* Honestly, its not just the Christian religion that seems to do this, it is others. But, it does seem that the Christian religion's main concern is growth and not understanding. Perhaps there should be a shift in priorities.

This whole idea of defending a Faith also feels very foreign to me. I guess that stems from the fact that I dont feel I have to defend or justify my Path to anyone, nor do I think anyone else should. One of the founding points of this place that I have tried to get across to folks is that thought as well and I hope as people realize this it will spread across many Paths and many nations. Perhaps then the hate will be less, the wars, the suspicion, the spitefulness, all of it...gone.

Arguing a Path, any Path, seems ludicrous to me. If its right to you, then it is. If it isnt, then it is not.

[Belteshazzar]

mol,

Guess what? ...It was not lost. I just realized I had copied it for some odd reason.

Actually, when I thought it was, ...it did not really bother me.

so here it goes!

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Originally posted by FLipsiDE
Welcome back Bel!

Thanks for the welcome.

However, the rest of your post comes across a bit hostile. Was there anything I said that caused that reaction?


Originally posted by FLipsiDE
Have you yourself ever measured faith, or do you trust the teachings and methodology of modern literalist Christianity, after all, religio… umm.

Flip ....allow me one more opportunity to verbalize what I am arguing for. First, I am not arguing for "empiracal" physics, but for "empiracal" effect. If faith has the power to heal physically, spiritually, emotionally and mentally, then there is no logical reason for the recipient of Faith to believe it is "imaginary".

Here is where we differ. Being a naturalist, (as I guess you are) everything in your world view exist "in the box". In the Christian world view, God exist "outside the box", and can operate "in the box". Faith comes from God. (outside the box) So there is no reason to expect Faith to have "physical" qualities.


Originally posted by FLipsiDE
Funny how there aren’t nearly as many preachers defending slavery today as there were 100 years ago and I haven’t heard of anyone trying to round up the Indians, take their kids from them and put them Catholic boarding school either.

Flip ...can you give me a reason for this strawman argument?

Suppose you and I lived in a small town. One night I slipped into your house, took your coat, shoes and hat, went into to town and commited theft and other criminal acts. Let us say that the witnesses recognized your coat and hat, and the authorities arrive at your door the next day. What would you say? You would say "it wasn't me!" ...To which the authorities would reply "witnesses saw your coat and hat."

Do you get what I am saying? It is not fair to lump in those whose lifestyles and behaviors are grossly inconsistant with the Chrsitian world view.

Thomas Jefferson said he "hated slavery", but he owned slaves. I have never heard liberals criticize him for this, nor should they. Slavery is most definately wrong. However, people like Thomas Jefferson found themselves living in difficult times that were not of their design. The point is that we live in an overtly complicated world and must examine closely the historical context of people before bieng too quick to cast stones.


Originally posted by FLipsiDE
You would think that a religion with an all powerful all knowing all loving God would not have allowed the bible verses that say slavery is OK in the first place…

If I were going to make a comment as sensative as this, I would at least have made an effort to prove my point. These type of generalizations are most unproductive, if not rhetorical.


Originally posted by FLipsiDE
or he would have put something useful in the bible like “Thou shalt not treat those who are of different skin color than thee as somehow lesser.” Or “Women should not be viewed as ‘loot’ from your raids.” Or “Not woman, nor child nor man should be abused.” Or “Having different opinions on how I should be worshipped is not call for murder.”


Flip ...if you want to debate these generalizations, then I suggest you start a specific thread, with specific examples, and I will gladly participate.

"love your nieghbor as yourself" works for me. I have enough sense to know that includes people from all racial, ethnic and religious backgrounds. ....."respect ALL men/women because they were made in the image of God" ....So simple, who could not understand it?


Originally posted by FLipsiDE
You cannot self correct Christianity because it’s not empirical.

Not true. We have a basis, ..the scriptures. God has used scripture to correct many of my problems. That is why Jesus said to His disciples "My Word has made you clean".

This should also be the standard by which you judge the behavior of those who profess to be Christian. By this you can determine if their actions or lifestyle are biblical are not. But of course, that is not use-ful for anti-Christian propoganda.


Originally posted by FLipsiDE
But you are happy to do so regarding religion without blinking an eye? Your literalists are scrapping the bottom of the bucket, desperately, insanely happy that an Ossuary of the brother of Jesus has been found...

Huh?

I am not following you here, ..only noticing the hosility.

What exactly am I "happy" to do ???

And what is wrong with being excited about an archaeological discovery?

Sounds more like disgruntled liberal opposition, who so desperately want to disprove the most realiable of ancient manuscripts ...the New Testament.

Why are they not so eager to scrutinize Aristotle, which has a "time expanse" of 900 years?


Originally posted by FLipsiDE
So now my girlfriend's brother is part of a worldwide conspiracy of scientists who invent things based off of lies?

So now you have a lying consipiracy of Scientists

Flip ..what in heavens name are you rambling about here?

I unashamedly admitt that I believe their is a liberal conspiracy. But what brought this on? A misunderstanding ...I hope.

Well ...I am out of time friend. I hope things get better.

shaz

[Belteshazzar]

Originally posted by mol
Instead of spreading the word of Christ to people that do not know him, maybe some of the folks already walking the Christian Path should be taught a little more.

mol,

I couldn't agree more ....well, actually I can. I would add that they need to be "born again" in many cases. The Holy Spirit will not guide you into racism, bigotry and hatred.

Self appointed ministers are indeed part of the problem, because the book of Ephesians teaches that the purpose of the Church is for the edifying-teaching of the saints for the work of the ministry.

The biggest problem with Christianity is that the opposition likes to suit up in "Christian uniform". As scripture says "wolves in sheeps clothing" ....and they always use "religion" to do it.


Arguing a Path, any Path, seems ludicrous to me. If its right to you, then it is. If it isnt, then it is not.

What is ludicrous about the law of non-contradiction?

shaz

[mol]

Originally posted by Belteshazzar
mol,

Guess what? ...It was not lost. I just realized I had copied it for some odd reason.

Actually, when I thought it was, ...it did not really bother me.

so here it goes!

:)

Good! Now I dont feel bad about it. :p

[mol]

Originally posted by Belteshazzar

What is ludicrous about the law of non-contradiction?


Saying the same thing to someone else I was answered with: "What is wrong about the law of contradiction."

Ack! I give up.

:D
Please drive thru...

[Semele]

Originally posted by Belteshazzar
This should also be the standard by which you judge the behavior of those who profess to be Christian. By this you can determine if their actions or lifestyle are biblical are not. But of course, that is not use-ful for anti-Christian propoganda.




I am a little confused by this comment. In a few of your posts you have made comments about "Christians" that you feel aren't truly living the life they could be or walking with Christ or whatever. Here you specifically mention judging them. What about the whole, "judge not lest ye be judged" thing? Is this another difference in Christian Apologetics? It is ok to judge others outwardly? I mean, we all do this at times, but not all of us profess to follow the Bible and it's scriptures as a set of guidelines for our lives. Just curious.

[MasterMoon]

By Shaz:
I couldn't agree more ....well, actually I can. I would add that they need to be "born again" in many cases. The Holy Spirit will not guide you into racism, bigotry and hatred.

Where is this Holy Spirit?
Why do you speak of something that you cannot see, hear or prove its existance?

By Shaz:
Here is where we differ. Being a naturalist, (as I guess you are) everything in your world view exist "in the box". In the Christian world view, God exist "outside the box", and can operate "in the box". Faith comes from God. (outside the box) So there is no reason to expect Faith to have "physical" qualities.

How convenient!..We speak of something that just so happens to not have any way of being proved. Do you actually believe any of this? Faith at best, is only a good guess. Faith : The assured expectation of things hoped for though not seen.
Lets see, I have faith that I will get paid on Friday because I have been paid all the other Fridays. Right?
I have faith that the sun will rise, because it has before.
The only problem here is that my "faith" has nothing to do with the sun rising or me being paid. My pay has to do with my employers bank account.

Why not try to think for yourself?
Never mind what people try to pump into your head to make you feel better. Life is not about having a nonstop grin on your face all the time and trying to make passages of a 2000 year old book "fit" into your life.

[Belteshazzar]

Originally posted by Semele
It is ok to judge others outwardly? I mean, we all do this at times, but not all of us profess to follow the Bible and it's scriptures as a set of guidelines for our lives. Just curious.

Hi Semele,

There is a difference between "judging people" and "making a judgement" of the actions/behavior of people. If it were wrong to make a judgement of one's actions, ...how could we ever make decisions? It is the things people do and say that we make judgements on when electing someone into a particular office. Criterion is a standard by which "judgement" and decision are made. To make my point Biblical, Jesus said "you shall know them (fasle christians) by their fruits" ...How shall we "know them" unless we make a judgement of their actions/behavior based on a standard?

A biblical example of "judging someone" would be to say that the reason that person is poor, or blind, or lame or sick is because God has cursed them do to their sin. (see the contemporary application) You can make a judgement on an act as if it is right or wrong, but judging the person is God's responsibilty.

I hope this is helpful.

shaz

[Belteshazzar]

Originally posted by MasterMoon
Where is this Holy Spirit?
Why do you speak of something that you cannot see, hear or prove its existance?

Moon,

I cannot see you, nor prove your existance.


How convenient!..

How convenient it is to say "I don't have world view". :rolleyes:

But that is okay ...we all know you do. ;)

However you say you don't so ... it's kind of hard to dialogue with a dead man. .....Unless of coure, you are John Edwards.

Moon ...this is the day the Lord has made ...so be glad and rejoice in it! ...otherwise you may continue to have a unproductively skeptical and sad-sack outlook on life.

shaz

[Belteshazzar]

Originally posted by MasterMoon
Why not try to think for yourself?

Moon,

Strange comment coming from someone who says they have no world view. *sigh*

But I do think for myself, that is why I have a world view. You, being a naturalist, obviously believe there is nothing "outside" the physical universe. That is like saying that the "watchmaker" is in the watch.

Can you logically demonstrate for me how that could be possible?

How can EVERYTHING come from "nothing"?

How can the universe BEGIN to exist without a cause? What was the first cause that in itself needs no cause?

Do you read those rather large books on "meaninglessness" .....assuming the book is "meaningful"?

How does "NON-living matter" become "Living matter"? How does that happen?

Okay Moon ....let's see how well you have "thought" for yourself ...or have you?

We shall see.

shaz

[mol]

Originally posted by MasterMoon

Where is this Holy Spirit?
Why do you speak of something that you cannot see, hear or prove its existance?

ALL RIGHT!!! We have your whole "nothing exists" theme firmly in mind. Moon, you are breaking the record so much that you wont have a piece left. Which, I am sure is your goal. Try some other mantra's...PLEASE! Some people dont give a rat's ass if they can prove a belief or not.

[mol]

Originally posted by Belteshazzar

However you say you don't so ... it's kind of hard to dialogue with a dead man. .....Unless of coure, you are John Edwards.

Hey, lay off my boy. I like Edwards.

[Belteshazzar]

Originally posted by mol
Hey, lay off my boy. I like Edwards.

Hey, I didn't say he wasn't entertaining. :)

uhh ...I see the color green ....and the letter "G"

oh yes! ... Joe was wearing his green "mr. Grinch" boxers last time I saw him ...just before he took that flight

Joe ..wants you to know ...those were his favorite boxers.

(sniff sniff) ...ohh thank you John.

:rotfl:

shaz

[Semele]

Originally posted by mol
Hey, lay off my boy. I like Edwards.

Edward...no s at the end!!

[mol]

Originally posted by Belteshazzar


(sniff sniff) ...ohh thank you John.



And the end result usually being that...a person's heart and mind feeling good as a result of the meeting with him.

This is off subject, but with the sarcasm you show I couldnt just pass it up. People usually mock what they dont understand. Im sure that you mocked various Pagan practices before you came here, and maybe still do. This is another thing I hope to spread from this site (understanding...bot belief, but understanding). Obviously you think the man is a joke for whatever reason, but you hopefully see the good that comes. I have a different slant, as I Know the man to be genuine.

And now back to our regularly scheduled topic, before we get slapped by the mods.

[Semele]

Originally posted by Belteshazzar
Hi Semele,

There is a difference between "judging people" and "making a judgement" of the actions/behavior of people.

I think this is an area where we will disagree. People's action's and behavior's come from the people themself. Also, I still don't understand the need to judge others..or even their actions. In the case of electing a politician..maybe, but we all know they can lie and act the way they think we want them to in order to get votes. Why though, do we need to be able to recognize that Joe blow on the street isn't a true Christian or whatever else. Are we to save him or avoid him so as not to get sucked into negativity ourselves?? I know where I stand on this, just curious where you do.

[Belteshazzar]

Originally posted by Semele
Also, I still don't understand the need to judge others..or even their actions.

Semele,

I think we have been here before.

By calling what I say or do into judgement, (as you are doing) ...you are in effect in the process of making a judgement. At some point, you will make a judgement of what I said. If you disagree ....then what is that based on if not your own judgement.

I really think you missed my point. Please try reading it again.

If I don't believe Joe blow is a Christian ....then I won't buy his book, ..or elect him as a deacon ...or ask him to teach my sunday school class .etc... etc.. etc.. Does that mean I would mistreat him in anyway? ...No.

Can we assume that the "sniper" was a Pagan since he left a tarot card with the message "I am god"? If so, then would we assume that Pagans are threat to society?

You see ...no matter how you look at it ....a judgement has to be made.

At any rate, I am prepared to agree to disagree. :)

shaz


mol,

Sorry, I didn't realize you were serious.

My disbelief of John Edward ( no "s") ....is partly based on a Larry King show where he basically flopped. Anyone can "get it right" on their own show.

However, I do believe he is "making contact" ....just not with dead people.

No more John Edward ( no "s" ) jokes ...I promise.

shaz

[Semele]

Originally posted by Belteshazzar
By calling what I say or do into judgement, (as you are doing) ...you are in effect in the process of making a judgement. At some point, you will make a judgement of what I said. If you disagree ....then what is that based on if not your own judgement.

Of course you are correct. :)




Originally posted by Belteshazzar

If I don't believe Joe blow is a Christian ....then I won't buy his book, ..or elect him as a deacon ...or ask him to teach my sunday school class .etc... etc.. etc.. Does that mean I would mistreat him in anyway? ...No.

This answers my question. I guess I was just wondering if the judgements were being made in order for an attempt at fixing these people that WE percieve to be wrong because they aren't like us or we feel they are missing out. I rather like your response to that.


Originally posted by Belteshazzar

However, I do believe he is "making contact" ....just not with dead people.

Interesting observation. Many have thoerised that he is picking up on the energy or thoughts of the people around him who are attempting to connect with a loved one. Either way it is a gift. there are the cases where he recieves messages intended for people he is not directly in contact with at the time. of course those could be publicity stunts , who knows? I have watched a lot of his shows and read his books. My main position on him is that he is providing a public service. He makes people feel better. Call it a form of therapy if you want, but it has its purpose. I for one would love to meet him in person.


Originally posted by Belteshazzar

No more John Edward ( no "s" ) jokes ...I promise.

shaz

Ah come on. Haven't you seen enough of him to know he has a great sense of humor? I think you would have to!! He is really quite funny!!

[Mithrea]

Originally posted by mol
And now back to our regularly scheduled topic, before we get slapped by the mods.

:p

[FLipsiDE]

Bel: "Thanks for the welcome.

However, the rest of your post comes across a bit hostile. Was there anything I said that caused that reaction?"

Gahh... I get sarcastic and I write like I speak, not write for effect. Sorry. Hostility is almost a never for me... but I can get worked up and I can get kind of curious/sarcastic. Not intended, but I find it difficult to filter from my writing. Very sorry and I will work to correct that. :(

Bel: " First, I am not arguing for "empiracal" physics, but for "empiracal" effect. If faith has the power to heal physically, spiritually, emotionally and mentally, then there is no logical reason for the recipient of Faith to believe it is "imaginary"."

Ah, Excellent! Then we are not in disagreement about it's lack of physicality. Regardless of it's effect being physical, the fact is that faith is not empirical... it is not something you can measure and it is not something you can get an even vaguely objective measurement of. Yes it has effect in the real world, but the force itself, the mental construct, the meme that is faith is a subjective, personal thing. My belief in Coyote or Odin is no less than your faith in Christ or Mohammad's faith in Allah.

I suspect we still disagree on the value of "imaginary" forces though.

Bel: " Being a naturalist, (as I guess you are) everything in your world view exist "in the box". In the Christian world view, God exist "outside the box", and can operate "in the box". Faith comes from God. (outside the box) So there is no reason to expect Faith to have "physical" qualities."

I actually consider myself to be a panenthiest and DO believe ina god that exists outside of the universe. Hmm... now this confuses me. I was arguing that faith was a non-physical, imaginary (Mental object/force/meme) and you were arguing that it was an empirical force?

Bel: "Do you get what I am saying? It is not fair to lump in those whose lifestyles and behaviors are grossly inconsistant with the Chrsitian world view."

I DO understand what you are saying... I disagree that you can dodge this so easily though. You say that they were living lives incongruent with the (implied proper) Christian worldview. But I suspect that if we were to go back and ask them they would find YOUR views to be the heretical ones. You are against slavery, you are (possibly, depending on denomination) for women in the church (Teaching/preaching positions), possibly even pro-choice or pro-gay rights! On the other extreme you may be against medical technology, blood transfusions, hate the Pope or believe that America is the nation that God has chosen. Regardless of your beliefs (unless I am mistaken and you are Conservative Roman Catholic) you probably would be branded as at least odd and possibly outright possessed.

So the point of that was: What EXACTLY are the defining acts of a Christian. A proper Christian. If we glibly brush off all other views of Christianity as "grossly inconsistant" then we must ask the criteria. Yes you have a book... a supposedly infalliable, literalist book. If this is the case then why are there so many versions of Christianity? How are we to tell which Christians to believe? Who should be the spokesman for the "real Christians" out there? My girlfriend practices the type of Christianity that I find to be most "Christian" Her church preaches the love and forgiveness and mercy of God... but to do so they outright ignore the concepts of Hell and Original Sin. Both MAJOR parts of a literalist view. If I were to chose a Christian church which I felt most completely grasped the message of Christ, I would choose her's or the Quakers.

But my opinion on this doesn't amount to much. ;)

Flip: "You would think that a religion with an all powerful all knowing all loving God would not have allowed the bible verses that say slavery is OK in the first place…"

Exodus
21:20 And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished.
21:21 Notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished: for he is his money.
Pretty much that entire chapter has verses to that effect.

I understand this is unpleasant but I am not trying to set you up for a Straw man. Perhaps this is again a difference between "proper Christians" and others? I do not know, I am asking though. It was verses like this that were used/are used by the KKK and similar minded preachers during the civil war to justify their ownership of... of what did they call 'em... "Hamm's children" Something like that. Some biblical tribe that was sentenced to eternal servitude. These were not the wackos of the time, they were respected preachers. So why are your views proper but not theirs?

Bel: ""love your nieghbor as yourself" works for me. I have enough sense to know that includes people from all racial, ethnic and religious backgrounds. ....."respect ALL men/women because they were made in the image of God" ....So simple, who could not understand it?"

I agree wholeheartedly. But there seem to be a lot of exceptions in the Old Testement to that golden rule. What about Old Testement laws that ordered stonings for various crimes? Saying that this was still in the spirit of the Golden Rule is stretching things a bit.

Bel: "This [The Scriptures] should also be the standard by which you judge the behavior of those who profess to be Christian. By this you can determine if their actions or lifestyle are biblical are not. But of course, that is not use-ful for anti-Christian propoganda."

Honest. I'm not out to bash all Christians or my wonderful beautiful girlfriend would have a hard time with me. :) (my constant punning makes it hard enough on her. heh heh)
What I'm saying is, the Scriptures are far from a solid "do this, don't do this". There are SO many ways of reading various passages that Christianity has spawned hundreds of copies of itself. Pentacostals believe true believers should be able to speak in tongues and handle poisonous animals. Why? It's in the bible. Civil War Southern preachers decided that slavery was OK. Why? It's in the bible. Jehovas witnesses and Mormons and Catholics and Seventh Day Adventists and Christian Scientists and Lutherans and Episcopalians and Branch Dravidians... each one of them has read the same book and come to a conclusion different than one another.

And this isn't a new phenomena. Cathars, Gnostics... the one true word of God seems to spawn a lot of different churches. (and don't get me wrong, if that was the intent then I have a new found respect for your God) I believe there is even a verse or two where Paul says "Don't worry about the differences, in the end you are all Christians." A very fascinating statement but I wonder if he ever dreamed that there would ever be Jehovas witnesses or Mormons? So if we ignore the fact that they are different sects, who's right? Especially since the literalism of the bible is one of the things they disagree most about. (or the translation for Jehovas, or the Book of Mormon for Mormons)

I disagree about the existance of a "liberal conspiracy". I DO believe that politically minded people (on both sides) work to towards the future they both desire. I do NOT like talk about conspiracies because it dehumanizes the opposition. You have an opinion you came by through experience and learning, as do I . I look towards the new White house and I shudder at the civil rights progress they have the potential to unravel. A conservative might look to it and see a way to finally end the horror of abortion and an end to "special protections" for sodomites. We each have our reasons for our beliefs.

[MasterMoon]

Posted By Mol:
ALL RIGHT!!! We have your whole "nothing exists" theme firmly in mind. Moon, you are breaking the record so much that you wont have a piece left. Which, I am sure is your goal. Try some other mantra's...PLEASE! Some people dont give a rat's ass if they can prove a belief or not.

Thanks for your reply Mol. Now you know how I feel when I hear people talk about holy spirit this..... God that...... etc.
I dont have a goal per se. My only reason for posting here is to find out just what it is that you are all talking about when you say holy spirit or God or faith or any of this kind of talk.
Can you show me?
Or is this all an advanced Dungeons and Dragons type of thing, but Ive been left out?
I thought this board was to share ideas?
I admit my method is crude, but my intent is that I want to know what spirituality is. Is it just a way of making yourself feel good?
Another words, if you think along the lines that spirituality dictates, you get to feel a certain way. ex Joyful, happy whatever.
Or, if there is actually something called God or spirit or whatever you call it, how do you know it exsists?
A feeling you get is not an answer, because that is just a feeling. If you were sad and then you found God and now you feel happy, that is not proof of God. That just means that you have changed your attitude.
If there is no proof of God.....(im not saying there isnt) why do you believe it?

Im sure that your life can change for the positive and you can do many wonderful things, but again this is only a change in attitude.
Are you saying that attitude is God?

[mol]

Originally posted by MasterMoon

Thanks for your reply Mol. Now you know how I feel when I hear people talk about holy spirit this..... God that...... etc.
I dont have a goal per se. My only reason for posting here is to find out just what it is that you are all talking about when you say holy spirit or God or faith or any of this kind of talk.
Can you show me?

No I cannot.

Plus!

I dont have to show you anything. I only show people that want to learn. You have never shown any real interest in learning, that I can see. Instead you inject snide comments and murmur about reality. You could, in effect, just copy/paste your posts from thread to thread because they all SAY the same thing.

I hate to get down on you, but really...this is not your thing, man. You have shown that to be obvious. So, why continue? It just doesnt seem logical to me.

[MasterMoon]

Posted by Shaz:
How convenient it is to say "I don't have world view".
But that is okay ...we all know you do.
However you say you don't so ... it's kind of hard to dialogue with a dead man. .....Unless of coure, you are John Edwards.
Moon ...this is the day the Lord has made ...so be glad and rejoice in it! ...otherwise you may continue to have a unproductively skeptical and sad-sack outlook on life.

See shaz the thing is here is that this thing you call a world view probably doesnt mean the same thing to me as it does to you.
"world view" to me is this: A big picture of what is happening to humanity as far as where we have been where we are now and where we are going. Also how "God" fits into mankinds evolution/creation.
To this definition of world view I have no opinion.
Please dont tell me world view is all of my opinions. Not when the term uses the word "world" then view. Wouldnt you say it is synomonous with "big picture"

Also please dont tell me what I think or dont think...

Also dont assume that because I dont have any beliefs and I am making statements here that I am sad (sad sack).
I will be glad and rejoice when and if I feel like it.

[MasterMoon]

PostedBy Shaz:
How does "NON-living matter" become "Living matter"? How does that happen?

What makes you think there is nonliving matter?
I dont know of any nonliving matter myself.....

[Belteshazzar]

Originally posted by MasterMoon
Posted by Shaz:
See shaz the thing is here is that this thing you call a world view probably doesnt mean the same thing to me as it does to you. "world view" to me is this: A big picture of what is happening to humanity as far as where we have been where we are now and where we are going. Also how "God" fits into mankinds evolution/creation.

To this definition of world view I have no opinion.

huh? :bug: ... but you said ......


We are just bugs in the universe ! Worth no more or less than a fly ! More than likely, we are probably made by the earth itself. Kind of like your body grows hair. Well the earth grows humans and other things too. (Earth- what a marvelous creature!) What you call your mind and your intellect, all a dream. Rubbish.

1. We are equal to bugs; worth no more than a fly.

2. "more than likely" - a product of the earth.

3. The earth is a "gardner" ....grows humans and other things.

4. The earth is a "creature".

5. "Gardner" + "creature" logically concludes ....the earth is a "living being".

6. The "mind", "intelligence" and thus knowledge, are illusionary and "rubbish".

Gee Moon ....be it far beyond me to tell you that you indeed have a world view, but I must say that your opinions agree with a "world view" held by others, including Al Gore.

shaz

[Belteshazzar]

Originally posted by MasterMoon
PostedBy Shaz:
[B]What makes you think there is nonliving matter?
I dont know of any nonliving matter myself.....

Moon-

I realise you feel the need to have total autonomy in you "thinking", but a little education of the sciences might help.

Science has a logical, non-imaginary criteria for what "living" things are and are not.

But we don't have to get beyond the elemenatry school level to answer your question. When "living" things grow, they do so from "within" given the right conditions and resources. They also die.

Tell me how a rock can grow, live and die.

Seriously Moon ....for one who comes across harshly skeptical ...you ironically have proven to have quite an imagination. You even contradicit science in areas where the scientific community is unified.

shaz

[Belteshazzar]

Originally posted by mol
I hate to get down on you, but really...this is not your thing, man. You have shown that to be obvious. So, why continue? It just doesnt seem logical to me.

mol,

Moon is either seeking or likes to argue. I think it is both.

Personally, I encourage his skepticism. But I would suggest he lay off the ill-rhetoric, because it is childish and unproductive.

imho ....shaz

[Belteshazzar]

Originally posted by FLipsiDE
Gahh... I get sarcastic and I write like I speak, not write for effect. Sorry. Hostility is almost a never for me... but I can get worked up and I can get kind of curious/sarcastic. Not intended, but I find it difficult to filter from my writing. Very sorry and I will work to correct that. :(

flip,

I understand completely ...I do it myself usually, but have tried to be careful here.

Good post by the way! You are what I call a "critical thinker", even if we disagree on many issues.

When I get more time I will respond to a couple of comments made in your last post.

Gotta get to work.

shaz

[Semele]

Originally posted by MasterMoon
PostedBy Shaz:
How does "NON-living matter" become "Living matter"? How does that happen?

What makes you think there is nonliving matter?
I dont know of any nonliving matter myself.....


Quick moon...grab an ink pen. Now look at it. It is nonliving matter.

Yay me, I answered a query!

[MasterMoon]

Posted by Shaz:
In 1Peter 3:15 God has given Christians a charge to "always be prepared to give an "apologia" (verbal defense) ...to ANYONE who ask for the reason of the Hope you have"

By Mastermoon:
Can you tell me what you mean by spirit?

Can you tell me why you believe it?
I just have to know what is going on inside your head when you think spirituality. How this is so different from attitude.
If it is not different from attitude, then is this all there is to it?
To feel hip, cool, smart, all knowing, etc etc.
Im sorry, but I think that spiritual people are living in a self imposed dream world. If not, show me why .
Yes you can refuse the offer. But why let such an opportunity slip by?
So my question is this: How is the quest for God and spirituality any different from a simple attitude adjustment?



When something is unknown and there is no answer to it, why do you make the leap and say that "God" did it?
Doesnt that close off any other options that may exsist?
Not that long ago, people thought the world was flat and that other people were witches and should be burned.
Not that long ago.
There is much science cannot answer, because to be a valid answer it must squeeze through the sieve of the scientific method, which works fine for some things but not others.

Oh by the way. Rocks Live!

[Raevyn]

Not that this was directed at me but I thought I'd take a crack;


Originally posted by MasterMoon
Can you tell me what you mean by spirit?

Life energy.


Can you tell me why you believe it?

Because I'm alive, because I observe other living creatures. Because I renounced spirituality and decided it was all a bs waste of time and nothing was real or important and a Goddess spoke to me.


To feel hip, cool, smart, all knowing, etc etc.

Sorry, no. I don't know many people who study spirituality to "feel hip, cool, smart, all knowing, etc.". I would submit that in fact most people reach to spirituality to give them hope and meaning - to feel that there's something out there to aspire to.

Believe me, if I had ever thought being spiritual was about having power that would've been blown out of the water when I miscarried, twice. There was a period where I decided it was all a waste of time and crap as well, because it was false. I don't believe any of us can possibly have a "true" understanding of the universe and what's objectively real (that goes back to the carp thing that I keep mentioning). I don't believe it's possible for any of us to remove ourselves from our subjective reality and what we've created in our own model and mindset and thus grasp the totality of "true".

However, this doesn't mean I feel that proves God *must* be made up, or that spirituality is a waste of time. Spirituality gives people hope and direction, regardless of what their beliefs are. They are given a set of ethics and beliefs to apply to their subjective reality. Whether God is "real" or not really doesn't make spirituality invalid - it just means that people *might* be wrong.

The fact that I believe everything is false doesn't in itself prove God doesn't exist - it proves God might or might not, and if s/he/it does s/he/it is most certainly well beyond human comprehension and subjective perceptions.

Spirituality might be made up in subjective perception, but by the same token the pen I write with or the food I eat might be the same. The question at sometime becomes "so?". We have to live in our subjective worlds, whether there's an objective reality that matches anything in our subjective; we all must live our own lives and use what is useful to us.

So if spirituality is a waste of time to you *shrugs* don't waste time on it.

[MasterMoon]

By Raeven
How is the quest for God and spirituality any different from a simple attitude adjustment?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Often it's not simple at all.

By Moon:
Ok ill give you that. Attitude adjustment is not always simple.

So... still the question remains: how is the quest for God different than any kind of attitude adjustment?
Isnt this why spirituality is pursued in the first place? Just to change the attitude?

I am not concerned about what people believe, I just want to know why they believe it. I admit that the use of imagination is useful in changing the attitude however I dont say that the things I imagined are true. Only my attitude is true.

By Raeven:
Spirituality might be made up in subjective perception, but by the same token the pen I write with or the food I eat might be the same. The question at sometime becomes "so?".

By Moon:
So?
People will die for their faith. Its a very big deal to them...
again, I dont care what people do, I just find it odd that they have to make up a whole story just to change an attitude. No, that is not so odd...what is odd is that they then believe the story and say that it is real. Losing site of the original reason they needed it in the first place, which is to feel better.

By Raeven:
I would submit that in fact most people reach to spirituality to give them hope and meaning - to feel that there's something out there to aspire to.

By Moon: Thats a good answer. But why make the leap and say that there is a God involved?
Isnt this a way for them to change their attitude? To give them hope and meaning? This is a change in attitude.
It seems to me the whole point of spirituality is to feel better about yourself. Is this true?
If it is, thats cool with me. However the story that you thought of to change the attitude, is just that, a story. Like when your parents used to read you stories to sleep at night.

But I dont believe in Hansel or Gretel ! It worked though, I fell asleep.

[mol]

Originally posted by Raevyn

So if spirituality is a waste of time to you *shrugs* don't waste time on it.

Exactly what I was getting at.

MMoon, why are you wasting your time...or better yet...our time? Im not going to drop into moderator mode here yet, but I will make a request. Your post's have a very shitty attitude about them and the sarcastic comments made at someone elses expense have to stop. Being an ass is not against the rules...but I will change the rules real quick just for you. Im growing tired. You have successfully made me not want to read this thread much anymore.

Quit it, please?

[MasterMoon]

As you wish Mol,
I will leave with an unanswered question.:O)

You shouldnt say people have a shitty attitude. Thats not nice...;O)

[Semele]

Originally posted by MasterMoon
I admit that the use of imagination is useful in changing the attitude however I dont say that the things I imagined are true. Only my attitude is true.


Wait a minute! First you say spirituality isn't real or true, only imagination or attitude. Then above you state that YOUR attitude is true??? What makes yours more true than ours?? Why must you contradict yourself to make a point...assuming you have a point??

If you believe, as you clearly stated above that attitude is true, well if spirituality is attitude it must be true...no??!!

[mol]

Originally posted by MasterMoon
As you wish Mol,
I will leave with an unanswered question.:O)

You shouldnt say people have a shitty attitude. Thats not nice...;O)

:)

I have a shitty attitude as well. :p

[Belteshazzar]

Originally posted by MasterMoon
Posted by Shaz:
So my question is this: How is the quest for God and spirituality any different from a simple attitude adjustment?


Moon,

I am not sure if you still around, but I hope you are. I will answer your question as I understand it. Basically, what you seem to be asking for a "reason" why I believe apart from theology and theory. This is an excelent question that requires a very honest and personal answer.

One might assume that I was raised in a Christian home and environment. That my parents imparted religious beliefs and doctrine in my life. But that is not true. One might also assume that I was searching for meaning and purpose in life and choose a spiritual path. But that is not true either. I will do my best to clearly, but briefly, tell you why and how I came to faith in Christ.

My parents separted when I was about 5. My father was a sailor, so my mother, two younger brothers and I moved in with my grandparents. My mother was a bartender, and was usually leaving for work about the time I would get home for school. My grandparents took care of me and my brothers till I was 9, when my mother moved out to avoid criticism of her lifestyle. The men in my mothers life came and went. Alot of drinking and fighting. By the time I was 13, my mother began to leave me in charge. My mother would be home for about 30 min after we got home from school then she would leave for work and not get home to about 2:00 am. Needless to say, we had no supervision. My friends all knew once she was gone it was party time. We would get high most every day.

When I was younger, I did attend an occassional Vacation Bible School. They would tell me that God loves me, ..then it was back home the norm. I was not certian if there was a God or not, but I was convinced that if He was really out there somewhere, He either knew nothing about me or did not care. I reasoned that He would have not let my parents divorce, and that I would not have been so poor.

Dating and partying became my purpose. This discouraged my interest in academics and athletics, so I choose to simply exist and live for the moment. After all, I had heard someone say that man was just a "pleasure seeking being" ...a product of nature and environment. However, no one ever taught me that I was a product of the decisions I made, which is an effect of how I thought and percieved the world around me.(world view) I eventually dropped out of high school.

At age 21, a girl I was dating became pregnant. This changed my prioroites a little, but not enough. Marrige later followed, but my partying lifestyle only intensified. I began using coke and just about anything but heroin or shooting up. My mother had finally settled down, so would I drop my son off on her for days at a time. I was on my way home about 5am one morning after being up for days, and I passed out at the wheel doing about 60. My car hit a drain ditch, flipped and rolled. I was not wearing a seat belt either. The passenger side of my car was cruched to about waist high. I recieved some bruises, gashes and stitches, but basically walked away.

This is probably where one might assume that I "sought God". But that is not true ...the thought never crossed my mind, even as often as people would remind me how "lucky" I was to be alive. My wife and I continued to use coke, and at some point she began using crack. She would drain our finances and disappear for days and weeks. I had to eventually take my son and move in with me mother. Sparing the years attempted recognciliation, we lost everything. I had to start over and be a single parent. My ex-wife was later arrested during a raid, and after that, raped, before she finally got clean. (or at least partialy)

As a single parent, I worked and cared for my son. I still did coke occasionally, but alcohol became my new comforter. One nite, I had some freinds over and we were doing coke. After a while, I was not feeling well and went to lay down. My heart was pounding uncontrolably and painfully. To proud to call for medical attention, I lay starring at the ceiling asking God if He would spare my life, and thinking of my 7 year old son in the other room. I laid there that way intensely for four hours, in fear and unable to sleep. That was the last time I did any drug other than smoke pot and drink. One might assume that I began to seek God after that, but that is not true.

I did however, change my attitude. I began focusing on recreational activities. I began skydiving and playing golf. ( I know ...that is a strange combination) I started being a better dad ....but there was still much room for improvement. So I made some "attitude adjustments" without seeking God. I did not need to "feel" cool, because I was convinced that I was. I did not "feel" the need to have knowledge of sprirtual things because I was living for the moment. I was dating alot, had plenty of friends, plenty of recreation and was making time to spend with my son here and there. If you would have asked me if I had "peace" and "joy", I would have confidently said "yes". But like you, I was an existencialist, and did not know it. I could careless about purpose, meaning and spiritual things. On the outside I was "happy", but on the inside I was still as empty as I had ever been.

During this time I met met this wonderful woman who had 3 girls. I really liked this woman, but I did not want to commit to having 4 kids one day. It would have really cramped my style. (just what God needed to do) So I started backing away, and basically stopped seeing her. I tried to avoid her calls, but one day I answered and it was her. She was not trying get a commitment, she had something to tell me. She was pregnant. ....I couldn't believe it. This was going to change everything. My only hope (so I thought) was to try to carefully and subtlely convince her to get an abortion. I tried every angle I could think of, the last being the silent treatment. This was without a doubt the lowest point of my life. I became so miserable, I even considered suicide. I so desperately wanted a way out of this bed I had made.

During this time, a client of mine invited me to a men's gathering of area business men. This was a once a year event with a featured guest speaker. That year it was former college football star and NFL player Perry Tutle. Basically he gave an incredible testimony of how Faith in Christ had radically changed him and his family. So incredible was it, that I figured that either A.) He was lying ...or B.) He was telling the truth and Christ was the answer. I could not concieve that this was a lie, and I was passionately moved to believe it was the latter. Now, one might assume that I had put faith in Christ that day. But that is not true. My heart was softened, and I did believe that Perry Tutle had Christ, but I did not see that Christ died for me also. One might assume that I then began to seek God and maybe even attend Church. But that is not true. However, I did feel as if a massive burden had been lifted from my shoulders. That nite I went home and called this wonderful woman who had been nothing but good to me, and apologized for how I had treated her. I then promised to support her no matter how things turned out.

After a month of talking, we began to spend time together. Just before the baby was due, we moved in together. Things began to quickly fall apart. I thought we would never make it. Then a friend of hers invited my son and I to hear an ex professional wrestler speak at her church. My son was into wrestling at the time. The wrestler was Nakita Koloff, maybe you have heard of him. I was not into wrestling, but I remebered him from when I was a kid. No one warned me that this was an "evangelistc" event...or I would not have went. I was still opposed to "church" and so-called "organized religion". However, Nakita gave an incredible testimony of how God changed his life through faith in Jesus Christ, when he concievably had everything he ever wanted. That nite an invatation was given. I wish I knew the words to describe what happened ...so all I can do is borrow from the blind man in John 9 ...."once I was blind ..but know I can see". I knew without a doubt that God loved me, that Christ died for me and rose again. I surrendered everything to Christ that nite. I gave it all to him. I no longer wanted to be the captian of my salvation.That was the day my life changed forever.

Moon ...scripture teaches that when we come to faith in Christ, born again, we are a "new creation" ...."all the former things have passed away, and behold all things have become new again". Imagination, attitude, wants, desires could not do for me what Christ did. I tried everything my mind could concieve. Following Christ was not a invention of mine. As Jesus told His disciples "you did not choose Me ....I choose you". But I did choose to recieve Him as Lord and Savior. Something that I will never be ashamed of, nor should I. Christ has given me life, and life more abundantly. He is continually transforming me into His image, which is what I desire most in life. In the last 3 1/2 years my life has been radically transformed. (not conformed) My relationship to Christ is key to everything. He has changed my heart and mind in ways I cannot begin to tell you. He has healed wounds and relationships that seemed beyond repair. This January I will begin college, something I would not concieve of doing in my wildest dreams (imagination). Now married to that wonderful woman, having not 5 kids but 6, working full time and being actively involved in Youth and teaching, ....finishing college is something that only Christ could do. "For I can do all thing through Christ who gives me strength".

There really is no opposing argument here. We can argue theory and theology, but you cannot possibly explain my life to me via some simplistic psychology. None of the your objections can counter the awesome present of Christ in my life. There are so many things I wish I had time add, but maybe later. This answer is probably already more than you bargined for. ;) Considering what Christ has done for me, I can't help but shout it from the roof tops.


peace and blessings,
shaz

[Raevyn]

Thank you for sharing you story shaz.


None of the your objections can counter the awesome present of Christ in my life.

I think in the end we're not all that different. :)

[mol]

Well, let me start by saying that this is Semele and not Mol. I am on strict bedrest and on his laptop and the silly thing wont log him out and me in.

I just wanted to say thank you for sharing your story Shaz. It is an inspiration, not so much in that you have found Christ, but that you are holding strong to your convictions and are living your life the way you KNOW you need to. I am sure your children and wife are very thankful to have you as head of thier household and lives.

Congrats on going back to school and good luck with it. What are you going to study if you don't mind my asking?

Since I will be on strict bedrest until the baby is born, hopefully Nov 25th, I may not get much time to get on here and respond. Mol has to use his laptop at work and we can't afford to go buy another just now! Please do not take my absence as a lack of interest here.

Love to you all!

Semele

[Belteshazzar]

Originally posted by mol
Congrats on going back to school and good luck with it. What are you going to study if you don't mind my asking?

Semele,

Thanks.

I thing I continue learned over and over ...since I surrendered my life to Christ is ...to follow His lead. That requires trust, faith and confidence that He not only has me best interest at heart, but will also "make a way" even if it seems impossible to me. So it requires alot of trust on my part, but I have found Him to always be faithful. ....I love these verses:

Isaiah 45:2-3
'I will go before you And make the crooked places straight; I will break in pieces the gates of bronze And cut the bars of iron.
I will give you the treasures of darkness And hidden riches of secret places, That you may know that I, the Lord, Who call you by your name, Am the God of Israel.

This is a prophecy ...not of, ...but to Cyrus of Persia. This was unquestionably written 300+ years before Cyrus. In the 45:1, God prophetically calls Cyrus by name as the one who will bring the Jews back from Babylon .....before they were ever taken captive!

Anyway, I will first pursue an Associate of Arts in Religion. (2 years) I am doing it via external studies, so I can work at my own pace. My goal is one cource a month (3 hr.), 9 per year. Then, I will likely begin serving as a youth minister as I continue studying. The ultimate goal is a Master of Arts in Religion, with a strong emphasis in apologetics.

I don't now what may lie ahead in the big piture. God rarely shines the light that far ahead, but usually just a few feet ahead, just enough that I need to trust and follow him. If I knew the entire plan, I would surely screw things up. ;)

Ps 119:105
Your word is a lamp to my feet And a light to my path.

btw ...I will be praying for the remainder of your pregnancy. But you need to follow the doc's orders, and stay in bed. Don't worry about the cooking, leaning, laundry, grocery shopping, Thanksgiving Dinner, paying bills, cleaning cars, raking leaves, or anything esle for that matter .....because I got word that mol was gladly going to take care of that for you. (as soon as he finishes watching the John Edward show) ;)

shaz

[mol]

Thanks for the prayers! We appreciate them very much!

I've got John on the phone right now and he wanted me to ask you....

"I see something blue, no wait, red. Maybe green too. No wait! Its red. Its your fat lip that mol just gave you!"

:D

Shalom for now... (Im Jewish today. Im thinking about Buddhist tomorrow, yah, Buddhist.)

[Belteshazzar]

Flip,

I am not ignoring your question in reguards to slavery and the bible.

What I would like to do is start a thread on that topic. I just need to find the time to make a well informed opening statement.

How does that sound to you?

Also, ....mol gave me a fat lip so I think this thread has come to an end. :scream:

shaz

[Illuminatus]

Great story.

My girlfriend's father did the same thing. Drinking, drugs, irresponsible lifestyle, then a motorcycle crash and brain surgery, then Christ. Seems like most people find their way to the Lord by either being born into it, or messing their lives up so badly, it takes an act of Faith for them to recover.

Sadly, my choices have, for the most part, been good ones, and I have never had to turn to a higher power for guidance. When I told my friends I had found Religion, one replied that they would have preferred if I had found Faith.

- Illuminatus

[Belteshazzar]

Originally posted by Illuminatus
Seems like most people find their way to the Lord by either being born into it, or messing their lives up so badly, it takes an act of Faith for them to recover.

Thanks Illum-,

Tell me something ...do you think it was by coincidence, that the first words out of Jesus' mouth at the Sermon on the Mount were ....."Blessed are the poor in Spirit" ?

In other words, one has to realize and accept he/she is lost before he/she can be found. Faith is going from blindness to sight. Once you have sight, it is much easier to make sound decisions in life.

John 9 is a great theological example of the point I am trying to "ever so subtlely" make. It is the story of the blind man whom Jesus healed, and from which language I borrowed in sharing my testimony. However, it is the last 2 verses that have the most profound imapct in my opinion.

John 9:40-41
Those of the Pharisees who were with Him heard these things and said to Him, "We are not blind too, are we?"

Jesus said to them, "If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, 'We see,' your sin remains.

[MistOfTheSea86]

I believe that you can debate endlessly on the subject of theology, defending your beliefs until the end of time. I believe the only true way to be a theologist is to be able to take into account that you may just be wrong, for one doesn't grow by "Seeing the light" By just covering himself with a shawl once again called "Christ"

This is no way means that you have blinded yourself Shaz, I am simply saying that some people I have met have punished themselves for their curiosity because they have either read or been told it is wrong. What is wrong? Who has the ability to say what is wrong and what is right? God? When it gets down to it, none of us knows if he/he exists, we have faith that he/she does but there is nothing external that proves it. We have our hearts, and our decisions. It comes down to YOU as an individual, it comes down to YOU as a person. Do you want to believe this is right? Or do you want to believe that this is wrong...

What do you feel?

[mol]

:)

[Belteshazzar]

Originally posted by MistOfTheSea86
What is wrong? Who has the ability to say what is wrong and what is right? God? When it gets down to it, none of us knows if he/he exists, we have faith that he/she does but there is nothing external that proves it.

Mist86,

I see your point.

I have never made any claims that I can "prove" spiritual truths to people here. I have simply participated in the function of this forum. So this begs the question "why challenge my claims as to spiritual truth and not others?"

The answer I think, is simple. Because Christianity provides an objective basis that is exclusive by nature. This is contrary to Pagan beliefs that welcome contradiction. Therefore, anyone who has theological beliefs and convictions that are exclusive are a threat to pluralism. This is why pluralsim is a self defeating philosophy. (there is no "absolute" truth, *EXCEPT* the "absolute truth" that there is no absolute truth)

Therefore, I am a thorn in the side of pluralistic dogma.

Also, you said "When it gets down to it, none of us knows if he/he exists, ".

This begs the question. What knowledge do you pocess that you can *KNOW*, or determine that nobody knows? If you have the knowledge that "nobody knows", then such a great knowledge would consequently know if God exist or does not exist.

Pluralism and agnosticism are both void of "critical thinking" IMHO.

Anyway, thanks for the question. I hope that does not sound harsh, because it is certianly not intened to be. That is just thoughts on your question.

sincerely,

shaz

[MistOfTheSea86]

Originally posted by Belteshazzar
Mist86,

I see your point.

I have never made any claims that I can "prove" spiritual truths to people here. I have simply participated in the function of this forum. So this begs the question "why challenge my claims as to spiritual truth and not others?"

The answer I think, is simple. Because Christianity provides an objective basis that is exclusive by nature. This is contrary to Pagan beliefs that welcome contradiction. Therefore, anyone who has theological beliefs and convictions that are exclusive are a threat to pluralism. This is why pluralsim is a self defeating philosophy. (there is no "absolute" truth, *EXCEPT* the "absolute truth" that there is no absolute truth)

Therefore, I am a thorn in the side of pluralistic dogma.

Also, you said "When it gets down to it, none of us knows if he/he exists, ".

This begs the question. What knowledge do you pocess that you can *KNOW*, or determine that nobody knows? If you have the knowledge that "nobody knows", then such a great knowledge would consequently know if God exist or does not exist.

Pluralism and agnosticism are both void of "critical thinking" IMHO.

Anyway, thanks for the question. I hope that does not sound harsh, because it is certianly not intened to be. That is just thoughts on your question.

sincerely,

shaz

Not neccesarily, by saying no body knows in no way implies that I have the intelleigence to say He/She does not exist. It simply presents the fact, that the evidence is lacking and therefore I logically come to the conclusion that no one knows. They think they know and they feel they know, but there is no concrete evidence of that fact. That is my point.

And I must disagree with you on "Pluralism and agnosticism are void of Critical thinking" Because it is quite on the contrary. To think in plurals is to think in either doubles or in many. So let us relate this to polytheism as opposed to monotheism. To think there are many gods, true is to give an excuse to the eccentricities of man and nature, however that does make things more complex in that you would have to know which corresponds with which, and if one of these has a larger group of followers then the other. Like, if one god is responsible for love, maybe people want to devote their lives to love. But if one wants to devote their life to all the gods then learning all the of the gods "Ways and methods" Would be terribly exhausting and time consuming. However, in monotheism it limits that research to one absolute so you don't have to worry about the grey area. It's black and white. This is bad and that is good.

It is human nature(IMO) to be curious about what one does not know. And if a person is agnostic that doesn't limit the curiousity, it merely adds a new element to the formula that we all call faith. Life itself is a journey and requires critical thinking, faith is an add on to this. And no matter what path a person chooses, critical thinking is and always will be a factor. Without it, we are empty shells ignoring that which we call life.

IMHO

Mist

[Belteshazzar]

Originally posted by MistOfTheSea86
It simply presents the fact, that the evidence is lacking and therefore I logically come to the conclusion that no one knows.

Mist-

What fact?

How can you say the evidence is lacking? (as fact)

Do you believe that God "must be" defined by some mathematical formula? (if so, ...that would be a weak little "god")

Or do you mean evidence of His existance?

Unless you can explain [WITH EVIDENCE] the origin of life and the physical universe, ....then you can not logically say "evidence is lacking" ....for life and the physical universe may be all the evidence you need.

shaz

[santine]

Hey can anyone join in?!
I guess I'm just a little confused!!
What the heck are we actually talking about!"!!
It seems interesting.
Santa.xx

[FLipsiDE]

More on the Ossuary...

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/12/03/science/social/03JAME.html?pagewanted=2

[Marchosias]

Is this topic dead, and is Shazstill around? I would absolutly love to join in this rather interesting conversation! :) So Shaz, you still around?

[Marchosias]

Good to see youre still around...Im not a liberal or a relativist, actually. Whether or not what I know/believe is ABSOLUTLY true or not is not my concern.

But correct me if I am wrong, but isnt this thread titled "Christian Apologetics"? Perhaps we could have a nice, but not violent conversation on religion? Im sure it will be fun.

P.S. If you need any help bombing abortion clinics, youve got my support buddy.

[Belteshazzar]

Originally posted by Marchosias
But correct me if I am wrong, but isnt this thread titled "Christian Apologetics"? Perhaps we could have a nice, but not violent conversation on religion? Im sure it will be fun.

Marchosias,

That would be great. However, my time is really limited for the next 3 weeks, and not for the reasons I mentioned. I was only jokingly venting my frustration of liberal propoganda and smeer tactics. :mad:

So fire away. Just understand that complex topics require time sometimes, becuase I like to reference. Sometimes it requires diggin stuff up. I am already commited to dealing with the topic of slavery in the bible, and can't fin the time to do it just yet. (I have a bunch of info I need to blend together)


P.S. If you need any help bombing abortion clinics, youve got my support buddy.

No, I can't support that myself. But I am strongly opposed to the legalization of abortion and support those who can democratically and legaly do away with it.

See you next week , have a great weekend.

shaz

[Mithrea]

Hello :wave:

Just so you know, I split the relativism argument off and put it here: http://www.mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=365553#post365553 I have faith that you all will get us back on topic ;) :)