Feeling connected to Lilith...

[BluMystic]

I know nothing about the gods or godesses or about the bible. I just discovered a few days ago how me and Lilith must be somehow connected but I don't know what it all means.

I've always have been very spiritual, and can travel in dreams and in the astral plane, often into others dreams. I've had many spiritual experiences and insights into the future.

My dreams were my most spiritual, I've had dreams of kissing the devil after walking through the magnetic frequency of the underworld, there was a demon jester beside him... and the devil looked like a man in a suit... (mind you I don't really believe in one god or a devil.) He was seducing me in the dream and I awoke.

I've had dreams of climbing the "Tree of Life" as it grew from the earth... even before I even knew about it, I did research online and found out about the Tree of Life afterwards. And now I've found out how Lilith was constantly connected to the Tree of Knowledge... I'm assuming its the same thing.

I've had dreams of snakes that were wise, following me as I walk through a swamp-like area... a river of some sort. The snakes gave me advise. I can't remember the exact words.

I don't know but I just went further into looking up info and came upon "Lilith"... its weird because my middle name is "Lili" because my mom mispelled lily, she doesn't know how to spell. My first name Suzanne means "Lily" and I was born on Easter Sunday April 10th of '83.

What doe Lilith truly represent? There are so many veiws of her.

[Owd Scrat]

A great, great.....great book to read with tons of information, knowledge (arcane and otherwise) about Lilith and so much more and related things..... is Pillars of Tubal Cain by Nigel Jackson....

Awesome book! He goes very in-depth and that book was one of those life-changing books for me.

http://mysticwicks.com/picture.php?albumid=794&pictureid=9611

[BluMystic]

Thanks! I'll check it out!

[BluMystic]

Thank you for the info! :)

[RoseKitten]

If you go back to the original tales of Lillith, you will find yourself in Sumer. Lillith, in short, was a demon that at one point made a home out of a sacred tree that belonged to the goddess Inanna. She was sent to kill babies and seduce men. She was one of the Lithu (sp??) demons in Sumerian myth.

[David19]

A great, great.....great book to read with tons of information, knowledge (arcane and otherwise) about Lilith and so much more and related things..... is Pillars of Tubal Cain by Nigel Jackson....

Awesome book! He goes very in-depth and that book was one of those life-changing books for me.

http://mysticwicks.com/picture.php?albumid=794&pictureid=9611

I've heard of that before, although, I'm not sure if I'd get it, I've heard some things about both Nigel Jackson and Michael Howard, from people I respect, that seem to indicate they aren't the greatest authors (for example, apparantly, Nigal Jackson's book 'The Call of the Horned Piper' was more him copying down what Evan John Jones dictated, and he's admitted himself he didn't understand it, and was more playing to the crowd, and I remember reading 'Angels and Goddesses: Celtic Christianity & Paganism in Ancient Britain' (http://www.amazon.com/Angels-Goddesses-Christianity-Paganism-Ancient/dp/1898307032) in the library, and wasn't too impressed, apparantly, his scholarship isn't the greatest.

That said, your milage may vary.


If you go back to the original tales of Lillith, you will find yourself in Sumer. Lillith, in short, was a demon that at one point made a home out of a sacred tree that belonged to the goddess Inanna. She was sent to kill babies and seduce men. She was one of the Lithu (sp??) demons in Sumerian myth.

QFT, also, apparantly, Enlil had command over the Lilitu demons, being that he is also a God of demons and spirits.

Personally, I like this article by Aaron Leitch on the history of Lilith:

Lilith: From Demoness to Dark Goddess (http://kheph777.tripod.com/lilith.html)

Maybe Lilith did come to you, or Satan as well, do a bit of research into them.

Maybe also think about getting:

'Lilith's Cave: Jewish Tales of the Supernatural' by Howard Schwartz (http://www.amazon.com/Liliths-Cave-Jewish-Tales-Supernatural/dp/0195067266). That features some tales of Lilith, amongst other stories of the Jewish supernatural (I haven't read it yet, but, I really will get it, as it sounds really cool and I really love learning about Jewish Mythology and folklore, and Howard Schwartz is a great writer, I've got his 'Tree of Souls: The Mythology of Judaism' (http://www.amazon.com/Tree-Souls-Mythology-Howard-Schwartz/dp/0195086791), and, IMO, it's really great, so far, and features some tales of Lilith too).

Then, there's:

'Jewish Magic and Superstition' by Joshua Trachtenberg (http://www.sacred-texts.com/jud/jms/index.htm) (I've linked to it on Sacred-Texts (http://www.sacred-texts.com/)). If you want to learn about Lilith, then, you should probably use Jewish sources, as she is a Jewish demon/Goddess.

[Spica]

David, rumours are rumours. You should read his books if you want to find out whether he is or isn't "playing the crowd."

The Pillars of Tubal Cain was a life-changing book for me too and I really recommend it for those who are interested in Luciferian Gnosis, Lucifer/Lilith, Freemasons and such. Lots of stuff there. In fact, I have it next to me right now, since I've been re-reading parts of it. Hehe.

Oh, I just happened to order the book "The Call of The Horned piper", since it seems to be a book that most traditional witches have in their books-to-read lists. :)

Lilith is the female equivalent of Lucifer. She is the female rebel, the one who refused to lay under Adam because she was his equal. In Astrology she represents the shadow-part of our personalities, repressed anger issues, lust and sex. She is a highly transformative power, just like Lucifer. Also, the fact that you have been seeing snakes in your dreams might mean that you will be soon going through an important spiritual transformation.

For me, she is my muse. I use her to get rid of my obsessions and transform them in to positive things.

[Son of Goddess]

Nigel Jackson's books are definitely worth a read, regardless of what anyone has said, respected or not. Don't judge a book by its cover, or by the opinions of its reviewer.

There's a reason they are out of print and hard to find.

[David19]

David, rumours are rumours. You should read his books if you want to find out whether he is or isn't "playing the crowd."

The Pillars of Tubal Cain was a life-changing book for me too and I really recommend it for those who are interested in Luciferian Gnosis, Lucifer/Lilith, Freemasons and such. Lots of stuff there. In fact, I have it next to me right now, since I've been re-reading parts of it. Hehe.

Oh, I just happened to order the book "The Call of The Horned piper", since it seems to be a book that most traditional witches have in their books-to-read lists. :)

Lilith is the female equivalent of Lucifer. She is the female rebel, the one who refused to lay under Adam because she was his equal. In Astrology she represents the shadow-part of our personalities, repressed anger issues, lust and sex. She is a highly transformative power, just like Lucifer. Also, the fact that you have been seeing snakes in your dreams might mean that you will be soon going through an important spiritual transformation.

For me, she is my muse. I use her to get rid of my obsessions and transform them in to positive things.

I might check out 'The Pillars of Tubal Cain' one day, although, on a Renaissance Astrology Yahoo Group, Nigal Jackson is a member, and, he seemed to think of Lilith as an evil/malevonent entity, one that was malevolent towards humans.

[Spica]

Hi David,

that sounds pretty odd to me.

It is made very clear in the book that she is not a malevolent Goddess, but still not someone to be messed with. Lilith can transform shadow-problems in to positive things, whereas Lucifer awakens the divine spark. Both are necessary for the spiritual evolution of a person.

Could you perhaps copy what he has said on to this forum? It is difficult for me to take this kind of stuff seriously without seeing it with my own eyes. Then again, can we be sure that it's really Nigel Jackson himself?

The Gnostic Mandeans said of Lilith:
"Lilith knows the secrets of darkness and light, and [she] unites Heaven and Hell. Her aspect is that of wisdom."

She also had a very important part in the Great Flood: "Noah and his family were saved in the ark by means of the sprinkling of light that proceeded from her [Wisdom] and through it the world was again filled with humankind." (Pagels 1981:65)

Owd Scrat: I just noticed that your book is really used. Nice to see that! Mine is filled with writing and stickers. :smile: Do you have other books you would recommend that were life-changing?

[Deb13b]

I recommend Lilith's Fire: Reclaiming Our Sacred Lifeforce by Deborah Grenn Scott. Fascinating book.

[David19]

Hi David,

that sounds pretty odd to me.

It is made very clear in the book that she is not a malevolent Goddess, but still not someone to be messed with. Lilith can transform shadow-problems in to positive things, whereas Lucifer awakens the divine spark. Both are necessary for the spiritual evolution of a person.

Could you perhaps copy what he has said on to this forum? It is difficult for me to take this kind of stuff seriously without seeing it with my own eyes. Then again, can we be sure that it's really Nigel Jackson himself?

The Gnostic Mandeans said of Lilith:
"Lilith knows the secrets of darkness and light, and [she] unites Heaven and Hell. Her aspect is that of wisdom."

She also had a very important part in the Great Flood: "Noah and his family were saved in the ark by means of the sprinkling of light that proceeded from her [Wisdom] and through it the world was again filled with humankind." (Pagels 1981:65)
[B]

Sure, I'll post it, I have no reason to doubt it's not Nigel Jackson, as he posts on the Spiritus_Mundi Group, a Renassiance Astrology Yahoo Group that was started by Christopher Warnock, founder of Renaissance Astrology (http://www.renaissanceastrology.com/), Jackson has a lot of links with that group, as you can see on this page (http://www.renaissanceastrology.com/nigeljacksontalisman.html). So, I have no reason to doubt it's the same person.

Ok, I'll have to take back what I originally said, it wasn't Nigel Jackson who stated that, it was Colin Low (http://www.digital-brilliance.com/kab/) (a great authority on the Kabbalah).

From here (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Spiritus_Mundi/message/8930):


I have to second this, and in stronger terms. I'm not the sort of
person who recoils from the dark and spooky stuff by any means, but
this entity is nearly uncontrollable and fundamentally anti-human.

Judaism has no real equivalent to Christianity's Satan (though that
can be debated), but the singular personification of *ultimate evil*
in the prior religion is her. Christianity's Satan aims to corrupt
and damn souls-- but Lilith's aim is solely to wipe out all of
humanity, with a particularly vicious and frenzied hatred of women
and children. She embodies the worst characteristics of predator and
plague; and while rituals to evoke her might spare the practitioner
somewhat, nearby bystanders are not immune.

Practitioners uncomfortable working with the ultimate evil in any
religion should think twice before handling artifacts resonating with
one.

--Cliff

Now, on to what I know Nigel Jackson did say about Lilith, which followed on from Cliff's post (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Spiritus_Mundi/message/8932):


I'll chime here with Darcie and Cliff's caveats concerning the Mirror of
Lilith, but with the recommendation that whoever does use it sticks very
scrupulously to the ritual of the Munich handbook rather than indulging in
any modern nonsense which could prove useless, dangerous - or both. The
original context of the Munich Ritual, as with all our Traditional Astrology
and Magic is key, as it conjures and binds Lilith specifically under the
dominion of the Divine Powers which will at least afford some protection
from this demonic entity.

Modern magic is plagued with the same foolishness which afflicts modern
astrology - that there are no malefics, they are simply 'challenging'
energies etc. etc. Forget trying to approach the Mirror of Lilith via the
prism of this kind of fatuous nonsense - the old Magicians and Nigromancers
knew that Lilith was a strangler and a virulent demon and interacted with
her accordingly. This kind of Goetic Magic holds very real dangers, perhaps
all the more dangerous on account of their insidiousness and subtlety.

Vade Retro Sathanas +

All the Best,
Nigel

If you don't know what the Munich Handbook of Necromancy is that Jackson mentioned, I suggest you go out and get 'Forbidden Rites: A Necromancer's Manual of the Fifteenth Century' by Richard Kieckhefer (http://www.amazon.com/Forbidden-Rites-Necromancers-Fifteenth-Century/dp/0271017511), you can check out some of it on Google Books (http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=pXvRNI1S55EC&dq=Forbidden+Rites&printsec=frontcover&source=bn&hl=en&ei=mpHsSp7eMJHLjAeaoOypDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CBEQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=&f=false), in fact, if you want to learn about magic, check out all, or most, of the Magic in History series (http://www.psupress.psu.edu/books/series/book_SeriesMagic.html).

So, he seems to be of the opinion Lilith is a Demon, not saying that you can't learn from her, but, she would have her own agenda, as Colin Low stated (and, which, Jackson agreed with).

BTW, where did those quotes about the Gnostic Mandeans and Lilith and the Flood come from?, was it one of Elaine Pagels books?, if so, would you mind saying which one :).

Anyway, hope that helps. Like I said, I might check out 'The Pillars of Tubal Cain' one day, although, I definitely keep some salt handy. Personally, like Low and Jackson both said, one of the things that a lot of occultists and Pagans seem to gloss over or ignore, is the fact, malevolent, or evil, forces do exist.

[Burning Angel]

Sure, I'll post it, I have no reason to doubt it's not Nigel Jackson, as he posts on the Spiritus_Mundi Group, a Renassiance Astrology Yahoo Group that was started by Christopher Warnock, founder of Renaissance Astrology (http://www.renaissanceastrology.com/), Jackson has a lot of links with that group, as you can see on this page (http://www.renaissanceastrology.com/nigeljacksontalisman.html). So, I have no reason to doubt it's the same person.

Ok, I'll have to take back what I originally said, it wasn't Nigel Jackson who stated that, it was Colin Low (http://www.digital-brilliance.com/kab/) (a great authority on the Kabbalah).

From here (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Spiritus_Mundi/message/8930):



Now, on to what I know Nigel Jackson did say about Lilith, which followed on from Cliff's post (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Spiritus_Mundi/message/8932):



If you don't know what the Munich Handbook of Necromancy is that Jackson mentioned, I suggest you go out and get 'Forbidden Rites: A Necromancer's Manual of the Fifteenth Century' by Richard Kieckhefer (http://www.amazon.com/Forbidden-Rites-Necromancers-Fifteenth-Century/dp/0271017511), you can check out some of it on Google Books (http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=pXvRNI1S55EC&dq=Forbidden+Rites&printsec=frontcover&source=bn&hl=en&ei=mpHsSp7eMJHLjAeaoOypDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CBEQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=&f=false), in fact, if you want to learn about magic, check out all, or most, of the Magic in History series (http://www.psupress.psu.edu/books/series/book_SeriesMagic.html).

So, he seems to be of the opinion Lilith is a Demon, not saying that you can't learn from her, but, she would have her own agenda, as Colin Low stated (and, which, Jackson agreed with).

BTW, where did those quotes about the Gnostic Mandeans and Lilith and the Flood come from?, was it one of Elaine Pagels books?, if so, would you mind saying which one :).

Anyway, hope that helps. Like I said, I might check out 'The Pillars of Tubal Cain' one day, although, I definitely keep some salt handy. Personally, like Low and Jackson both said, one of the things that a lot of occultists and Pagans seem to gloss over or ignore, is the fact, malevolent, or evil, forces do exist.

Then again, the Luciferian position on Lilith is that she's dark, but decent...not a mother goddess of fuzzy love but not a Lovecraftian entity of ultimate evilllll....perhaps it's more about who you ask. The Jews, and those approaching Lilith from the perspective of an enemy, are certain to find her a violent, evil monster...might approaching her as a dark yet not so evil entity get you a different result?

Just one "dark" freak's perspective :p

In Chaos Eternal,
~Jon~ :bouncybob

[David19]

Then again, the Luciferian position on Lilith is that she's dark, but decent...not a mother goddess of fuzzy love but not a Lovecraftian entity of ultimate evilllll....perhaps it's more about who you ask. The Jews, and those approaching Lilith from the perspective of an enemy, are certain to find her a violent, evil monster...might approaching her as a dark yet not so evil entity get you a different result?

Just one "dark" freak's perspective :p

In Chaos Eternal,
~Jon~ :bouncybob

It could, but, would that be saying that all the Lore that's been built up around her "wrong"?, which, I don't think it is. Now, personally, I don't see Lilith as being "pure evil" (at least, not in same sense, the Christian Satan is supposed to be), but, I don't think she's this dark being/Goddess figure who's there to help you either. I'm sure she can help you out, but, I think, like Jackson said in the part I quoted, you need to handle her with care, like the ancient Mages did, they made sure they had protections from Higher sources, etc.

[Burning Angel]

It could, but, would that be saying that all the Lore that's been built up around her "wrong"?, which, I don't think it is. Now, personally, I don't see Lilith as being "pure evil" (at least, not in same sense, the Christian Satan is supposed to be), but, I don't think she's this dark being/Goddess figure who's there to help you either. I'm sure she can help you out, but, I think, like Jackson said in the part I quoted, you need to handle her with care, like the ancient Mages did, they made sure they had protections from Higher sources, etc.

Well she's not all evil, but I do agree that she's a dangerous mama :p It's just that most of the lore on demons, etc. was written from the perspective of their enemies...it's interesting to me that most pagans will agree about history being slanted - say, witchfinder lore not giving you a clear picture of the witches they were finding - but the same perspective doesn't apply to demons at all. Are all these entities really evil, or did the same medieval/Renaissance folk that hunted witches and lied about them also make enemies of demons and their ilk based on another lie, from the same source?

In Chaos Eternal,
~Jon~ :bouncybob

[Spica]

Hiya David,

thanks for posting Nigels reply on Lilith. It sounds like they are talking about a ritual of high magic? I have very little knowledge in it since it is not of my interest.

It's also not a surprise that someone knowledgeable on the Kabbalah would see Lilith as the ultimate evil. They all seem to think that...

I would say that it depends on the person on how they see Lilith. Im not going to deny that there are no purely malevolent powers in this world, but it seriously depends on the person and their perceptions on how they view these energies. This is perhaps why Modern Astrologers are not so quick to call malefic energy as purely "evil", since one can learn a lot from being under malefic energies.

And the quotes are from an Elaine Pagels book, but I have no idea which one. I took it from the book "POTC."

I'll also quote this from the book:

One of the most interesting, yet frequently misunderstood, parts of Lilith's legend is her creation of the demon races from sexual contact with sleeping humans. As Lilith Babellon says: "Since Lilith and Samael are not of human origin, there is a seed within the human race that belongs to another order of evolution. This is known by many names, including daemons, elves, feys and faeries. Lilith thus acts as a 'Faery Goddess Mother' drawing elven souls to evolve through human forms upon planes where the dullard Adam has not the imagination to enter." Page: 145.

"Patriarchal propaganda over the centuries has demonised, degraded and debased the myths of both Lilith and her consort Lucifer. Esoteric concepts such as the marriages between humans and the elven race have been deliberately misunderstood and misinterpreted as evil pacts with antihuman diabolical agencies. In fact these interventions in our planetary evolution have assisted the human race to progress and develop both spiritually and materially. These contacts have also helped to keep alive the pure flame of wisdom and knowledge first passed to humanity by the Elder Ones aeons ago." Page 148.

Lucifer is still seen in some traditions as the ultimate evil = Satan, but when one does some research, you start finding out that half of the stuff written about him is nonsense, not to mention that he and Satan are two different entities. Is it the same thing about Lilith? That's up the person to find out.

[David19]

Well she's not all evil, but I do agree that she's a dangerous mama :p It's just that most of the lore on demons, etc. was written from the perspective of their enemies...it's interesting to me that most pagans will agree about history being slanted - say, witchfinder lore not giving you a clear picture of the witches they were finding - but the same perspective doesn't apply to demons at all. Are all these entities really evil, or did the same medieval/Renaissance folk that hunted witches and lied about them also make enemies of demons and their ilk based on another lie, from the same source?

In Chaos Eternal,
~Jon~ :bouncybob

It depends, IMO, for some entities, it's definitely slanted, but, for some, it's accurate, IMO. Personally, I'd have no problems working with demons, but, I wouldn't whitewash what they were, and make them into "nature spirits", "pagan Gods" (to my mind, Gods are a different order of beings, they're not interchangable with demons, or nature spirits, etc), etc.


Hiya David,

thanks for posting Nigels reply on Lilith. It sounds like they are talking about a ritual of high magic? I have very little knowledge in it since it is not of my interest.

It's also not a surprise that someone knowledgeable on the Kabbalah would see Lilith as the ultimate evil. They all seem to think that...

I would say that it depends on the person on how they see Lilith. Im not going to deny that there are no purely malevolent powers in this world, but it seriously depends on the person and their perceptions on how they view these energies. This is perhaps why Modern Astrologers are not so quick to call malefic energy as purely "evil", since one can learn a lot from being under malefic energies.

And the quotes are from an Elaine Pagels book, but I have no idea which one. I took it from the book "POTC."

I'll also quote this from the book:

One of the most interesting, yet frequently misunderstood, parts of Lilith's legend is her creation of the demon races from sexual contact with sleeping humans. As Lilith Babellon says: "Since Lilith and Samael are not of human origin, there is a seed within the human race that belongs to another order of evolution. This is known by many names, including daemons, elves, feys and faeries. Lilith thus acts as a 'Faery Goddess Mother' drawing elven souls to evolve through human forms upon planes where the dullard Adam has not the imagination to enter." Page: 145.

"Patriarchal propaganda over the centuries has demonised, degraded and debased the myths of both Lilith and her consort Lucifer. Esoteric concepts such as the marriages between humans and the elven race have been deliberately misunderstood and misinterpreted as evil pacts with antihuman diabolical agencies. In fact these interventions in our planetary evolution have assisted the human race to progress and develop both spiritually and materially. These contacts have also helped to keep alive the pure flame of wisdom and knowledge first passed to humanity by the Elder Ones aeons ago." Page 148.

Lucifer is still seen in some traditions as the ultimate evil = Satan, but when one does some research, you start finding out that half of the stuff written about him is nonsense, not to mention that he and Satan are two different entities. Is it the same thing about Lilith? That's up the person to find out.

No problem, and, thanks for posting that part of POTC, it sounded interesting, and, yet, it also sounded quite fake, to me anyway. I mean, I wouldn't say Lilith is a "Faery Goddess" or that she produces "elven people", again, I'm not saying she's "pure evil", but, to make out to be something she's not, isn't factual, I don't get why people want to make her into a "Faery" or a "Elven Queen" or whatever, when you can work with her just the same as a Demon-Goddess, without pissing over her Lore (BTW, that's directed at the authors of POTC and others, not you Spica :)).

Personally, this is the best article I've seen on Lilith, that doesn't downplay her origins, but, doesn't run scared of her either:

Lilith: From Demoness to Dark Goddess' by Aaron Leitch (http://kheph777.tripod.com/lilith.html)

I'm not sure if I will be getting the POTC now, though, it's just it seems like the typical Llewellyn book (I know it's not published by them), with the talk of the "evil Patriarchy", "the Great Goddess", etc.

I think the Traditional Witch I talked with was right, Jackson plays to the crowd, apparantly, from what I hear, he's even admitted, he didn't understand much, if anything, he wrote in 'Call of the Horned Piper' and 'Masks of Misrule' (which, again apparantly, were dictations from Evan John Jones).

I think, I'll probably just get 'A Dictionary of Angels: Including the Fallen Angels' by Gustav Davidson (http://www.amazon.com/Dictionary-Angels-Including-Fallen/dp/002907052X), and go on from there.

If Jackson's system works for anyone else, that's good, I do wish you luck, but, for me, I'm not sure if I could quite buy it.

[Burning Angel]

It depends, IMO, for some entities, it's definitely slanted, but, for some, it's accurate, IMO. Personally, I'd have no problems working with demons, but, I wouldn't whitewash what they were, and make them into "nature spirits", "pagan Gods" (to my mind, Gods are a different order of beings, they're not interchangable with demons, or nature spirits, etc), etc.



No problem, and, thanks for posting that part of POTC, it sounded interesting, and, yet, it also sounded quite fake, to me anyway. I mean, I wouldn't say Lilith is a "Faery Goddess" or that she produces "elven people", again, I'm not saying she's "pure evil", but, to make out to be something she's not, isn't factual, I don't get why people want to make her into a "Faery" or a "Elven Queen" or whatever, when you can work with her just the same as a Demon-Goddess, without pissing over her Lore (BTW, that's directed at the authors of POTC and others, not you Spica :)).

Personally, this is the best article I've seen on Lilith, that doesn't downplay her origins, but, doesn't run scared of her either:

Lilith: From Demoness to Dark Goddess' by Aaron Leitch (http://kheph777.tripod.com/lilith.html)

I'm not sure if I will be getting the POTC now, though, it's just it seems like the typical Llewellyn book (I know it's not published by them), with the talk of the "evil Patriarchy", "the Great Goddess", etc.

I think the Traditional Witch I talked with was right, Jackson plays to the crowd, apparantly, from what I hear, he's even admitted, he didn't understand much, if anything, he wrote in 'Call of the Horned Piper' and 'Masks of Misrule' (which, again apparantly, were dictations from Evan John Jones).

I think, I'll probably just get 'A Dictionary of Angels: Including the Fallen Angels' by Gustav Davidson (http://www.amazon.com/Dictionary-Angels-Including-Fallen/dp/002907052X), and go on from there.

If Jackson's system works for anyone else, that's good, I do wish you luck, but, for me, I'm not sure if I could quite buy it.

Yeah...this book sounds like teh silliness :p I think you have to respect the origins and lore of an entity, but not make it into a) too evil or b) too good. Balance in all things ;)

That said, a demon is a demon is a demon. No nature spirits, no pagan gods, and definitely no elven queen of the bright fluffy fairies crap :weirdsmil

In Chaos Eternal,
~Jon~ :bouncybob

[Owd Scrat]

No problem, and, thanks for posting that part of POTC, it sounded interesting, and, yet, it also sounded quite fake, to me anyway. I mean, I wouldn't say Lilith is a "Faery Goddess" or that she produces "elven people", again, I'm not saying she's "pure evil", but, to make out to be something she's not, isn't factual, I don't get why people want to make her into a "Faery" or a "Elven Queen" or whatever, when you can work with her just the same as a Demon-Goddess, without pissing over her Lore (BTW, that's directed at the authors of POTC and others, not you Spica :)).



As regards your comments (Burning Angel, this is also a response to your post on "bright fluffy fairies crap") on her being spoken of as a Faery or Elven Queen I think that you are greatly misunderstanding the context and use of those words....Faery and Elven. Since you haven't read any of Jackson's work (and I assume any or few of works that deal with the true Faery Realm and not Victorian flower fairies or Wiccan Fairy Lite), you wouldn't be privy to what those terms/titles mean to him and his writings. It is very much not some light-hearted/fluffy term or title. Not even close, in any respect. Extremely powerful, of the Underworld, quite dark and profoundly chthonic/eldritch.

But I can certainly see how coming from a perspective of knowing only certain ways of seeing or interpreting those terms, one would think he is pissing on her legends and lore. But IMO, used in context of what those terms mean in his writings, beliefs and philosophy ...he isn't or hasn't done anything of the sort (pissing I mean).

I don't care to get into a huge lengthy explanation or treatise on the foundation or lore behind those terms, but I just wanted to mention my opinion on it.

[Spica]

David19, I honestly think you should try and find a used copy somewhere if possible to make up your own mind on whether or not Nigel knows his stuff or doesn't, otherwise you will never know. As an example, I almost passed on buying "Masks of Misrule", because of one comment on Amazon. ONE comment. Whether or not the reviewer is right, I don't know yet, since I haven't readed the book yet.

If people stopped looking into things just because someone said something negative about someone, we would never learn anything at all.

And what Owd Scrat said about the context being misunderstood is true. I posted the part of Lilith being a 'Faery Goddess' on purpose to see whether or not people perhaps understood what it was about...Then again, I understand it's difficult if one is looking at it from a Wiccan perspective.

Im trying to get my hands on Michael Howard's book "The Book of Fallen Angels", but I can't find it anywhere to buy. I feel like Im missing out. :'(

[David19]

Yeah...this book sounds like teh silliness :p I think you have to respect the origins and lore of an entity, but not make it into a) too evil or b) too good. Balance in all things ;)

That said, a demon is a demon is a demon. No nature spirits, no pagan gods, and definitely no elven queen of the bright fluffy fairies crap :weirdsmil

In Chaos Eternal,
~Jon~ :bouncybob

:thumbsup:.


As regards your comments (Burning Angel, this is also a response to your post on "bright fluffy fairies crap") on her being spoken of as a Faery or Elven Queen I think that you are greatly misunderstanding the context and use of those words....Faery and Elven. Since you haven't read any of Jackson's work (and I assume any or few of works that deal with the true Faery Realm and not Victorian flower fairies or Wiccan Fairy Lite), you wouldn't be privy to what those terms/titles mean to him and his writings. It is very much not some light-hearted/fluffy term or title. Not even close, in any respect. Extremely powerful, of the Underworld, quite dark and profoundly chthonic/eldritch.

But I can certainly see how coming from a perspective of knowing only certain ways of seeing or interpreting those terms, one would think he is pissing on her legends and lore. But IMO, used in context of what those terms mean in his writings, beliefs and philosophy ...he isn't or hasn't done anything of the sort (pissing I mean).

I don't care to get into a huge lengthy explanation or treatise on the foundation or lore behind those terms, but I just wanted to mention my opinion on it.

I do know that Faeries/Fae aren't the light, Tinkerbell beings a lot of people think of when they hear the word "Faerie", but, I still think there is a difference between Demons and Faeries, of which, Lilith is of the latter variety.


David19, I honestly think you should try and find a used copy somewhere if possible to make up your own mind on whether or not Nigel knows his stuff or doesn't, otherwise you will never know. As an example, I almost passed on buying "Masks of Misrule", because of one comment on Amazon. ONE comment. Whether or not the reviewer is right, I don't know yet, since I haven't readed the book yet.

If people stopped looking into things just because someone said something negative about someone, we would never learn anything at all.

And what Owd Scrat said about the context being misunderstood is true. I posted the part of Lilith being a 'Faery Goddess' on purpose to see whether or not people perhaps understood what it was about...Then again, I understand it's difficult if one is looking at it from a Wiccan perspective.

Im trying to get my hands on Michael Howard's book "The Book of Fallen Angels", but I can't find it anywhere to buy. I feel like Im missing out. :'(

I may try and get the book one day, if I see it in any shop or occult shop, I'll have a flick through it, and see what it's like.

[Philosophia]

I do know that Faeries/Fae aren't the light, Tinkerbell beings a lot of people think of when they hear the word "Faerie", but, I still think there is a difference between Demons and Faeries, of which, Lilith is of the latter variety.

Whether Lilith is a demon or not is a matter of which source you describe as the truth and which is skewed. Couldn't she be a "demon goddess" as some have described her?

[David19]

Whether Lilith is a demon or not is a matter of which source you describe as the truth and which is skewed. Couldn't she be a "demon goddess" as some have described her?

That's what I've described her as, I have no problem with seeing her as that, I just don't like when people make her into something she's not, when they whitewash history, or make her into "an oppressed female" (personally, I think Lilith would kick their asses for that), "a Goddess or Goddess-figure demonized by those "evil Jews" or the big bad Patriarchy", etc.

To me, the actual Mythos of Lilith is more interesting than all that fakelore stuff. She came from a minor Mesopotamian species of Demon (the Lilitu), Lilith, an individual member of that species, somehow got connected with the Jewish God, YHWH, rose herself to Godhood/Divinity (yet, interestingly, is enemies with The Shekinah, the Jewish Goddess), etc.

Now, I've simplified her Mythos a lot, but, I find the real one a lot more interesting, and, in general, a lot more cooler than anything else.

[Philosophia]

That's what I've described her as, I have no problem with seeing her as that, I just don't like when people make her into something she's not, when they whitewash history, or make her into "an oppressed female" (personally, I think Lilith would kick their asses for that), "a Goddess or Goddess-figure demonized by those "evil Jews" or the big bad Patriarchy", etc.

To me, the actual Mythos of Lilith is more interesting than all that fakelore stuff. She came from a minor Mesopotamian species of Demon (the Lilitu), Lilith, an individual member of that species, somehow got connected with the Jewish God, YHWH, rose herself to Godhood/Divinity (yet, interestingly, is enemies with The Shekinah, the Jewish Goddess), etc.

Now, I've simplified her Mythos a lot, but, I find the real one a lot more interesting, and, in general, a lot more cooler than anything else.

You're assuming that what you believe is the "real one" isn't fakelore (and, please, stop with the big bad patriarchy crap). We don't know her origins well enough to even suggest that she was a member of a minor Mesopotamian species, other than the linguistic connection. She is not just a demon, like you've simplified her as, but the connections of her being a Goddess are just as legitimate.

[Owd Scrat]

You're assuming that what you believe is the "real one" isn't fakelore (and, please, stop with the big bad patriarchy crap). We don't know her origins well enough to even suggest that she was a member of a minor Mesopotamian species, other than the linguistic connection. She is not just a demon, like you've simplified her as, but the connections of her being a Goddess are just as legitimate.

Agreed! In my research and readings I have never taken her for just a demon etc. But that's my opinion.....I also agree about the Goddess part. She is and was a very complex entity....and so much is not known.

[Burning Angel]

As regards your comments (Burning Angel, this is also a response to your post on "bright fluffy fairies crap") on her being spoken of as a Faery or Elven Queen I think that you are greatly misunderstanding the context and use of those words....Faery and Elven. Since you haven't read any of Jackson's work (and I assume any or few of works that deal with the true Faery Realm and not Victorian flower fairies or Wiccan Fairy Lite), you wouldn't be privy to what those terms/titles mean to him and his writings. It is very much not some light-hearted/fluffy term or title. Not even close, in any respect. Extremely powerful, of the Underworld, quite dark and profoundly chthonic/eldritch.

But I can certainly see how coming from a perspective of knowing only certain ways of seeing or interpreting those terms, one would think he is pissing on her legends and lore. But IMO, used in context of what those terms mean in his writings, beliefs and philosophy ...he isn't or hasn't done anything of the sort (pissing I mean).

I don't care to get into a huge lengthy explanation or treatise on the foundation or lore behind those terms, but I just wanted to mention my opinion on it.

Curses! Foiled again lol...and now I have to figure this stuff out. The dark faeries always interest me...they're unique, cool, and not the fluffy crap I hate XD I don't know if anyone here knows of the Luciferian perspective on Lilith, but that also has a cool spin on the lore....oh my gods here I go opening a crazy can of worms. The Michael Ford haters are gonna join with the Lilith haters....WAR! :smileroll

In Chaos,
~Jon~ :bouncybob

[David19]

You're assuming that what you believe is the "real one" isn't fakelore (and, please, stop with the big bad patriarchy crap). We don't know her origins well enough to even suggest that she was a member of a minor Mesopotamian species, other than the linguistic connection. She is not just a demon, like you've simplified her as, but the connections of her being a Goddess are just as legitimate.

The thing is, there's no evidence Lilith was ever worshipped as a Goddess until modern times, she does have her origins in the Lilitu demons of Mesopotamia (who were a group of demons who were, kind of, like the Succubus of Medevial legend).



Agreed! In my research and readings I have never taken her for just a demon etc. But that's my opinion.....I also agree about the Goddess part. She is and was a very complex entity....and so much is not known.


I don't view her as just an demon either, like I've said before (here, and many times before in the many Lilith threads that come up), I also see her as a Goddess, I just don't see her as originating as one, personally, I like that take on her more, it can inspire people (both women and men) to rise up, no matter what the odds (now, whether or not, others can make it to the level of divinity like Lilith is up for debate, but, it's still a good tale, IMO).


Curses! Foiled again lol...and now I have to figure this stuff out. The dark faeries always interest me...they're unique, cool, and not the fluffy crap I hate XD I don't know if anyone here knows of the Luciferian perspective on Lilith, but that also has a cool spin on the lore....oh my gods here I go opening a crazy can of worms. The Michael Ford haters are gonna join with the Lilith haters....WAR! :smileroll

In Chaos,
~Jon~ :bouncybob

I find them interesting as well, but, the thing with me, is I just don't believe in equating different beings from different cultures, and religions, e.g. while they may have similarities, I don't think Angels and Faeries are the same, as some people (elsewhere) have suggested.

It's one of the reasons I'm not too keen on the POTC book, it just seems like Jackson took some British/Celtic Lore (e.g. Faeries), took some Jewish Lore, shoved them together, and, there you have it...Lilith becomes a Faerie.

[Philosophia]

The thing is, there's no evidence Lilith was ever worshipped as a Goddess until modern times, she does have her origins in the Lilitu demons of Mesopotamia (who were a group of demons who were, kind of, like the Succubus of Medevial legend).

I do know this but you're claiming this is fact when it is not. The most solid connection that she has with the Lilitu demons of Mesopotamia is etymological. But this does not mean that she came from them.

[Burning Angel]

The thing is, there's no evidence Lilith was ever worshipped as a Goddess until modern times, she does have her origins in the Lilitu demons of Mesopotamia (who were a group of demons who were, kind of, like the Succubus of Medevial legend).



I don't view her as just an demon either, like I've said before (here, and many times before in the many Lilith threads that come up), I also see her as a Goddess, I just don't see her as originating as one, personally, I like that take on her more, it can inspire people (both women and men) to rise up, no matter what the odds (now, whether or not, others can make it to the level of divinity like Lilith is up for debate, but, it's still a good tale, IMO).



I find them interesting as well, but, the thing with me, is I just don't believe in equating different beings from different cultures, and religions, e.g. while they may have similarities, I don't think Angels and Faeries are the same, as some people (elsewhere) have suggested.

It's one of the reasons I'm not too keen on the POTC book, it just seems like Jackson took some British/Celtic Lore (e.g. Faeries), took some Jewish Lore, shoved them together, and, there you have it...Lilith becomes a Faerie.

Hey - if she's not been worshiped as a goddess until modern times, why not start now? Just acknowledge the dark side...she was one nasty girl, but also a symbol of rebellion. Maybe not against the patriarchy, but if someone can find the strong woman inside their soul through Lilith, what do the details matter? :) I'm not sure if I even remember what POTC stands for lol...but I haven't read this book. That I can't comment on...what I can comment on is the necessity of acknowledging both darkness and light, and inner strength as well...seems to me if someone wants to cut loose with Lilith as their guide, it's better than remaining a prisoner to fate, right? :)

In Chaos,
~Jon~ :bouncybob

[ninurta2008]

David, rumours are rumours. You should read his books if you want to find out whether he is or isn't "playing the crowd."

The Pillars of Tubal Cain was a life-changing book for me too and I really recommend it for those who are interested in Luciferian Gnosis, Lucifer/Lilith, Freemasons and such. Lots of stuff there. In fact, I have it next to me right now, since I've been re-reading parts of it. Hehe.

Oh, I just happened to order the book "The Call of The Horned piper", since it seems to be a book that most traditional witches have in their books-to-read lists. :)

Lilith is the female equivalent of Lucifer. She is the female rebel, the one who refused to lay under Adam because she was his equal. In Astrology she represents the shadow-part of our personalities, repressed anger issues, lust and sex. She is a highly transformative power, just like Lucifer. Also, the fact that you have been seeing snakes in your dreams might mean that you will be soon going through an important spiritual transformation.

For me, she is my muse. I use her to get rid of my obsessions and transform them in to positive things.
I always thought Ishtar was the female equivalent to both the christian and the roman Lucifer.


Then again, the Luciferian position on Lilith is that she's dark, but decent...not a mother goddess of fuzzy love but not a Lovecraftian entity of ultimate evilllll....perhaps it's more about who you ask. The Jews, and those approaching Lilith from the perspective of an enemy, are certain to find her a violent, evil monster...might approaching her as a dark yet not so evil entity get you a different result?

Just one "dark" freak's perspective :p

In Chaos Eternal,
~Jon~ :bouncybob
The ancient babylonian and sumerians Lilitu/Lilit wasn't evil by our standards, that was Lamashtu. She was made to do it, that's all she knows, she was created to do harm. the jewish one, Lilith, is the mean evil one. Lilith kills by choice, Lilitu is just enslaved by all she knows. the modern one seems to be neither nor. So perhaps its a seperate entity now? Maybe one of the Lilitu broke their chains and became less evil.


It could, but, would that be saying that all the Lore that's been built up around her "wrong"?, which, I don't think it is. Now, personally, I don't see Lilith as being "pure evil" (at least, not in same sense, the Christian Satan is supposed to be), but, I don't think she's this dark being/Goddess figure who's there to help you either. I'm sure she can help you out, but, I think, like Jackson said in the part I quoted, you need to handle her with care, like the ancient Mages did, they made sure they had protections from Higher sources, etc.
The christian satan isn't pure evil either really, he just rebels against the christian god and is doomed ever since. The satanists (theistic ones anyway) build onto this. For example, some see him as rebelling against a tyrannical god, and saving people through knowledge/gnosis. Though you see alot of gnostic influences in modern satanism.


That's what I've described her as, I have no problem with seeing her as that, I just don't like when people make her into something she's not, when they whitewash history, or make her into "an oppressed female" (personally, I think Lilith would kick their asses for that),

If they did that to Ishtar, calling her oppressed, I'm sure she'd kick more than their asses for it. As for Lilith, she'd make them all infertile for it.

There was an interesting article I read though about the jewish YHWH that I have to find. It was associating YHWH with Athtar, though I am not so certain how accurate it is. It said something to the sort that YHWH was one of his epithets, or something similar to it. Athtar is the male version of Athtart, or Ishtar in mesopotamia in the east. Though I have to look for it, otherwise i'd say Ishtar would beat YHWH for tryin to oppress her. She don't take kindly to those who try to make her subordinate. look at what happened to Gilgamesh.:bigredgri


"a Goddess or Goddess-figure demonized by those "evil Jews" or the big bad Patriarchy", etc.
That says alot about their feminist agenda. And their lack of knowledge about who Shekhina is.


To me, the actual Mythos of Lilith is more interesting than all that fakelore stuff. She came from a minor Mesopotamian species of Demon (the Lilitu), Lilith, an individual member of that species, somehow got connected with the Jewish God, YHWH, rose herself to Godhood/Divinity (yet, interestingly, is enemies with The Shekinah, the Jewish Goddess), etc.

Now, I've simplified her Mythos a lot, but, I find the real one a lot more interesting, and, in general, a lot more cooler than anything else.
I know jews are probably going to hate me for saying this but, I think that they forgot something about their religion long ago, its a pantheistic version of the religion of ancient Israel. I swear. From Elohim (meaning gods as well as god/though there was one instance where it was refering to people in psalms), to "let us create".


You're assuming that what you believe is the "real one" isn't fakelore (and, please, stop with the big bad patriarchy crap). We don't know her origins well enough to even suggest that she was a member of a minor Mesopotamian species, other than the linguistic connection. She is not just a demon, like you've simplified her as, but the connections of her being a Goddess are just as legitimate.
Yeah we do. Her name's etymology was puzzling until we learned it came from the sumerian language. The sumerians created her and her crew of evil demons (Lilitu and Lillu) as the demons they remained. There is nothing missing from her record, at least not that will point to her being a goddess. And don't show that image of Inanna and say it is Lilith, I have had so many people show that image of Inanna with owl feet on lions claiming it to be lilith/lilitu and its just not.

There are prayers I say before bed that are sumerian, some protect against bad dreams while the others wards off lilith and other demons, and others praise gods then i have an informal prayer. I am no longer a recon, though I still do that.

What he said about the big bad patriarchy is absolutely correct. Feminists made her into something she wasn't, claiming that since it was a patriarchy their male god must've demonized her. When in reality, that was only true for the catholic and protestant patriarchy, and certainly not the jewish and mesopotamian ones. They were patriarchies that were similar to all semitic cultures when it came to women. They weren't obsessive about women being inferior, they just had men at the top.




Agreed! In my research and readings I have never taken her for just a demon etc. But that's my opinion.....I also agree about the Goddess part. She is and was a very complex entity....and so much is not known.

What is not known?



Hey - if she's not been worshiped as a goddess until modern times, why not start now? Just acknowledge the dark side...she was one nasty girl, but also a symbol of rebellion. Maybe not against the patriarchy, but if someone can find the strong woman inside their soul through Lilith, what do the details matter? :) I'm not sure if I even remember what POTC stands for lol...but I haven't read this book. That I can't comment on...what I can comment on is the necessity of acknowledging both darkness and light, and inner strength as well...seems to me if someone wants to cut loose with Lilith as their guide, it's better than remaining a prisoner to fate, right? :)

In Chaos,
~Jon~ :bouncybob
Because babykillers and mankillers are just evil and bad. For all I know, she could have tried to kill me when I was a baby, I had dandy walkers syndrome. How do I know she didnt cause it? Let alone worship her.

[Son of Goddess]

I always thought Ishtar was the female equivalent to both the christian and the roman Lucifer.

There never was a "Roman" Lucifer. You'll find no temples, shrines, etc... to any deity being called Lucifer. No holidays, festivals, nothing. The name was nothing more than a title or epithet given to various deities identify them as "bearers of light" as the name implies. The only time it has any more importance is when the Greek writers applied their myths in Roman culture and thus took their Phosphoros (the morning star) and "translated" Him into Latin as Lucifer.

Not to mention an equivalent to Babylonian Ishtar? What?

Sorry to interject, but things need to be corrected as necessary.

[Philosophia]

Yeah we do. Her name's etymology was puzzling until we learned it came from the sumerian language. The sumerians created her and her crew of evil demons (Lilitu and Lillu) as the demons they remained. There is nothing missing from her record, at least not that will point to her being a goddess. And don't show that image of Inanna and say it is Lilith, I have had so many people show that image of Inanna with owl feet on lions claiming it to be lilith/lilitu and its just not.

No, you don't. You can continue to say it until you're blue in the face but it doesn't make it true. Anybody who states that there is nothing missing from her record does not know the history of Lilith and her origins. The etymology is the only connection to Sumerian and it isn't a strong one at that. And did I show that image? No? Then don't accuse me of that crap.


What he said about the big bad patriarchy is absolutely correct. Feminists made her into something she wasn't, claiming that since it was a patriarchy their male god must've demonized her.

As a feminist, bullshit. Stop trying to blame all feminists for that (and, yes, you were) and the so-called jives at "big bad patriarchy". If you knew anything about the claims, you would know that some feminists did that and they didn't always blamed the male god but the people that wrote the Torah.

And the feminist agenda? :rolleyes:


When in reality, that was only true for the catholic and protestant patriarchy, and certainly not the jewish and mesopotamian ones. They were patriarchies that were similar to all semitic cultures when it came to women. They weren't obsessive about women being inferior, they just had men at the top.

Whether you think it wasn't doesn't matter.

[Burning Angel]

I don't really care what the origins were, personally...I'd go so far as to say that the modern Lilith is something removed from whatever her misty past origin might be, but still retaining a bit of the darkness and shadow side. I don't think she's a wonderful love goddess, but I hardly believe she was this ultimate evil...it all depends on who you ask, whose story you're reading. Just goes to show that perspective, history and varying facets of a truth itself can combine to totally obscure that truth :)

In Chaos,
~Jon~ :bouncybob

[ninurta2008]

There never was a "Roman" Lucifer. You'll find no temples, shrines, etc... to any deity being called Lucifer. No holidays, festivals, nothing. The name was nothing more than a title or epithet given to various deities identify them as "bearers of light" as the name implies. The only time it has any more importance is when the Greek writers applied their myths in Roman culture and thus took their Phosphoros (the morning star) and "translated" Him into Latin as Lucifer.

Not to mention an equivalent to Babylonian Ishtar? What?

Sorry to interject, but things need to be corrected as necessary.
Lucifer was either the epithet of the morning or evening star, I knew that, and as you pointed out, the morning star. Ishtar is associated with both the morning and the evening star. That's all.


No, you don't. You can continue to say it until you're blue in the face but it doesn't make it true. Anybody who states that there is nothing missing from her record does not know the history of Lilith and her origins. The etymology is the only connection to Sumerian and it isn't a strong one at that. And did I show that image? No? Then don't accuse me of that crap.
Umm...what more do we need? There is more on her than there is on Lamashtu, another well known demon. As I said, there is more than plenty more than the etymology, there are also texts upon texts.

Huluppu Tree (has her in it, but doesn't really describe her)
Lilith Tablets (little tablets that are used to keep her away)

As for that image, I was just making sure no one posts that image. Sorry, wasn't specifically saying you were. I was saying that it has been used as proof that she is a goddess, because demonesses didnt have big images, statues and bas reliefs (well at least not bad ones).


As a feminist, bullshit. Stop trying to blame all feminists for that (and, yes, you were)
No I wasn't, not all feminists, just the ones that began the myth of the victomized goddess gone demoness. It is a feminist legend, that is not to say it is a illegitimate legend, it is just one I don't subscribe to.


and the so-called jives at "big bad patriarchy". If you knew anything about the claims, you would know that some feminists did that and they didn't always blamed the male god but the people that wrote the Torah.

And the feminist agenda? :rolleyes:
You misunderstood me, I was not talking about a feminist agenda. I was saying that many feminists (in particular, the ones that carried the myth of lilith as one of women's liberation), have made Lilith into a goddess.

Sorry I didn't speak clear enough.

[Philosophia]

Umm...what more do we need? There is more on her than there is on Lamashtu, another well known demon. As I said, there is more than plenty more than the etymology, there are also texts upon texts.

Huluppu Tree (has her in it, but doesn't really describe her)
Lilith Tablets (little tablets that are used to keep her away)

Except it is just etymological only. Lilith may only appear in name only in those texts. Like I stated in another thread, she could be an amalgamation of different types of spirits. There is suggestions that she is a hand maiden or prostitute of Inanna. Which ever is correct, I think the origin of Lilith is still very much clouded.

I think, on this topic, we're going to have to agree to disagree because I have a feeling neither of us are going to budge on this topic.


As for that image, I was just making sure no one posts that image. Sorry, wasn't specifically saying you were. I was saying that it has been used as proof that she is a goddess, because demonesses didnt have big images, statues and bas reliefs (well at least not bad ones).

Thank you.


No I wasn't, not all feminists, just the ones that began the myth of the victomized goddess gone demoness. It is a feminist legend, that is not to say it is a illegitimate legend, it is just one I don't subscribe to.

You misunderstood me, I was not talking about a feminist agenda. I was saying that many feminists (in particular, the ones that carried the myth of lilith as one of women's liberation), have made Lilith into a goddess.

Sorry I didn't speak clear enough.

I do apologize. It gets me quite upset when people use feminists as some sort of crux.

[ninurta2008]

Except it is just etymological only. Lilith may only appear in name only in those texts. Like I stated in another thread, she could be an amalgamation of different types of spirits. There is suggestions that she is a hand maiden or prostitute of Inanna. Which ever is correct, I think the origin of Lilith is still very much clouded.
Who suggested that she was a hand maiden/prostitute of Inanna? Was it an assyriologist or sumerologist or a suggestion based on some reading of evidence? I never heard of that, interesting to learn more about that suggestion.

As for etymology, as I stated, she isn't just briefly mentioned. She was made so that she would kill babies and make men infertile as well as rape them. Her origins aren't clouded mythologically nor in any other way that I know of. She appears in name and in her function in the texts.

I apologise btw for my keeping on forgetting to source myself, I have been real busy lately. here:

Here is something on her from the archaeological record (I didn't read the book myself yet, so I apologise if it doesn't make my case, it just has a text that is useful in understanding her if you scroll down.

http://books.google.com/books?id=KsjhVI3jH1UC&pg=RA1-PA66&dq=lilitu&lr=&as_brr=3#v=onepage&q=lilitu&f=false

I have a copy of this book at home, here is what it says on Lilitu/Lilu:

http://books.google.com/books?id=pr8-i1iFnIQC&pg=PA118&dq=lilitu&lr=&as_brr=3#v=onepage&q=lilitu&f=false

From another book:
http://books.google.com/books?id=yCkRz5pfxz0C&pg=PA520&dq=lilitu&lr=&as_brr=3#v=onepage&q=lilitu&f=false

She was a demon, there are no other possibilities historically speaking. Unless we are refering to a Lilitu that is neither semitic nor sumerian.


I think, on this topic, we're going to have to agree to disagree because I have a feeling neither of us are going to budge on this topic.
I think I agree with you there. Though you can see her as a modern goddess if you'd like, it's just not for me.


Thank you.
You're welcome. I will try to be clearer next time.


I do apologize. It gets me quite upset when people use feminists as some sort of crux.
While I agree that it would be a bad idea, I don't think anyone was doing that. We were just simply stating that the idea of Lilith the goddess arose in popularity with feminists or was a myth created by feminists (don't know this part for sure), and she was from there made to symbolize the empowerment of women.

[Philosophia]

Who suggested that she was a hand maiden/prostitute of Inanna? Was it an assyriologist or sumerologist or a suggestion based on some reading of evidence? I never heard of that, interesting to learn more about that suggestion.


As common in Mesopotamian myths relating to demons, a deity was said to 'rule' over Lilitu. Later Sumerian texts denote Lilitu as the 'Hand maiden of Inanna' or ‘Hand of Inanna’.

"In older Sumerian texts...it says that Inanna -- who corresponds to the Babylonian Ishtar -- has sent the beautiful, seductive, and unmarried prostitute Lilitu out into the streets and fields in order to lead men astray" – Hurwitz (Lilith: The First Eve)

From here (http://www.witchvox.com/va/dt_va.html?a=usfl&c=words&id=11966).


As for etymology, as I stated, she isn't just briefly mentioned. She was made so that she would kill babies and make men infertile as well as rape them. Her origins aren't clouded mythologically nor in any other way that I know of. She appears in name and in her function in the texts.

But that doesn't negate it etymologically. That's what I'm saying.


Here is something on her from the archaeological record (I didn't read the book myself yet, so I apologise if it doesn't make my case, it just has a text that is useful in understanding her if you scroll down.

http://books.google.com/books?id=KsjhVI3jH1UC&pg=RA1-PA66&dq=lilitu&lr=&as_brr=3#v=onepage&q=lilitu&f=false

I have a copy of this book at home, here is what it says on Lilitu/Lilu:

http://books.google.com/books?id=pr8-i1iFnIQC&pg=PA118&dq=lilitu&lr=&as_brr=3#v=onepage&q=lilitu&f=false

From another book:
http://books.google.com/books?id=yCkRz5pfxz0C&pg=PA520&dq=lilitu&lr=&as_brr=3#v=onepage&q=lilitu&f=false


I think this kinda proves my point. Etymologically, it's correct.


She was a demon, there are no other possibilities historically speaking. Unless we are refering to a Lilitu that is neither semitic nor sumerian.

And that's the issue. It doesn't negate what I'm saying, etymologically wise. From my perspective, I think she is a combination of many various different spirits.


I think I agree with you there. Though you can see her as a modern goddess if you'd like, it's just not for me.

I don't see her as a modern goddess but not as a demon either.


While I agree that it would be a bad idea, I don't think anyone was doing that. We were just simply stating that the idea of Lilith the goddess arose in popularity with feminists or was a myth created by feminists (don't know this part for sure), and she was from there made to symbolize the empowerment of women.

Let's just state that those feminists are not in the majority but in a minority. From my experiences, many do respect history and don't try to change it.

[ninurta2008]

From here (http://www.witchvox.com/va/dt_va.html?a=usfl&c=words&id=11966).
Aside from a few inaccuracies in that article, it clearly shows that it is basing itself alot on Samuel Kramer, who had limited knowledge of sumerology, as there was limited stuff to be known then.
As for an association with Ninlil, well...maybe sometimes before the invention of writing, though we have no written evidence of that.
It's not the Lil you are thinking of. Lil in sumerian means: moron, breath, wind, infection, open country (I live in the Lil of the adirondacs for example).

But that doesn't negate it etymologically. That's what I'm saying. Etymologically, her name is unrelated to any goddess. Etymologically, Ki and the Ki in Enki are similar, but are 2 totally unrelated sumerian words. There are some theories as to why sumerian had so many of the same syllables as holding one meaning, one theory is that it may be like in Chinese, where the they had different pitches/tones or whatever its called where the accent dictates that the sounds either rise or fall.

Another error in that article is that they say nin- means lady, which was a common misunderstanding in the earlier eras of sumerology. Actually, it can also mean lord. For example, Ningishzida (lord gishzida), Ninazu (lord azu) and so on are used as meaning lord. Ninurta means lord urta.


I think this kinda proves my point. Etymologically, it's correct. etymologically speaking, Athtar and Athtart are the same deity then. Etymology only tells you the meaning of the name. just because a name has Lil in it, doesn't mean every deity with that name is the same. Just like Enki is not the same as Ki, even though his name means lord ki if you want to read it that way.


And that's the issue. It doesn't negate what I'm saying, etymologically wise. From my perspective, I think she is a combination of many various different spirits. If you want to believe it, whatever, that's up to you. It negates it as it is not historically accurate, and is based on the bastardization of the sumerian language. as for being etymologically correct, don't really understand what you mean by that.

As for a combination of many different spirits, yeah, "she" is a group of female spirits, that are demons to me and goddesses in whatever new age religion.



I don't see her as a modern goddess but not as a demon either. Which is fine, that is your perogative to believe what you will. I am just going to stick to the historical facts though.


Let's just state that those feminists are not in the majority but in a minority. From my experiences, many do respect history and don't try to change it.It doesn't matter if they are a majority or a minority. They can still tell stories so much it becomes a popular legend. There is only one dan brown, though nearly a planet that likes his books and are influenced by him.

I respect history, I don't mind reinterpretations of past beliefs. Though some are just to radically different for me to comprehend, sorry if I appear closed minded, I am really not. I can see how some would turn Lilith into a spirit of women's liberation, as she didn't want to submit to a man, but the lilitu, nah. The gods already have a goddess like that. When Shamash had Inanna/Ishtar marry Tammuz/Damuzi, not even her husband could make her submit.

By the way, I have nothing against feminists. Actually, I respect alot of them because of the good that they have done for the country. Well at least here in america. Feminists are the cause of fall of much of the old worn out traditions in this country that needed to go, and without them I'd be on the streets when I was younger because my mom had to work as a single mother for much of my childhood. So without them, the country would be a very different place.

And I am a secret feminist.

[Philosophia]

I really do believe, at this point in time, we agree to disagree because neither of us are going to budge on this topic.


As for an association with Ninlil, well...maybe sometimes before the invention of writing, though we have no written evidence of that.

Maybe.


It's not the Lil you are thinking of. Lil in sumerian means: moron, breath, wind, infection, open country (I live in the Lil of the adirondacs for example).

Yes, I do know this.


Etymologically, her name is unrelated to any goddess. Etymologically, Ki and the Ki in Enki are similar, but are 2 totally unrelated sumerian words. There are some theories as to why sumerian had so many of the same syllables as holding one meaning, one theory is that it may be like in Chinese, where the they had different pitches/tones or whatever its called where the accent dictates that the sounds either rise or fall.

And that is why I said she is connected to it etymologically wise.


Another error in that article is that they say nin- means lady, which was a common misunderstanding in the earlier eras of sumerology. Actually, it can also mean lord. For example, Ningishzida (lord gishzida), Ninazu (lord azu) and so on are used as meaning lord. Ninurta means lord urta.

If it can mean both, why is that an error?


Etymologically speaking, Athtar and Athtart are the same deity then. Etymology only tells you the meaning of the name. just because a name has Lil in it, doesn't mean every deity with that name is the same. Just like Enki is not the same as Ki, even though his name means lord ki if you want to read it that way.

Which is why I said that the connection is only etymologically wise.


If you want to believe it, whatever, that's up to you. It negates it as it is not historically accurate, and is based on the bastardization of the sumerian language. as for being etymologically correct, don't really understand what you mean by that.

As for a combination of many different spirits, yeah, "she" is a group of female spirits, that are demons to me and goddesses in whatever new age religion.

You're not understanding what I'm saying. You wrote: "Unless we are refering to a Lilitu that is neither semitic nor sumerian." I said I believe it's a combination of such. That's not being historically incorrect.


Which is fine, that is your perogative to believe what you will. I am just going to stick to the historical facts though.

Don't assume I'm not sticking to historical facts because I am. It's why I'm loathe to stick with any demon/goddess attribute. Plus, I'm an agnostic so beliefs are very different.


It doesn't matter if they are a majority or a minority. They can still tell stories so much it becomes a popular legend. There is only one dan brown, though nearly a planet that likes his books and are influenced by him.


Actually, it kinda does matter if it is a minority or majority. It matters when people make huge generalizations about feminists that cause others to stereotype us into little boxes.


I respect history, I don't mind reinterpretations of past beliefs. Though some are just to radically different for me to comprehend, sorry if I appear closed minded, I am really not. I can see how some would turn Lilith into a spirit of women's liberation, as she didn't want to submit to a man, but the lilitu, nah. The gods already have a goddess like that. When Shamash had Inanna/Ishtar marry Tammuz/Damuzi, not even her husband could make her submit.

I love history and, while I'm not a recon, I do try to be historically accurate in everything I do. It's why I'm not so clear cut on Lilith's history.

I'm not trying in any way to revision Lilith's history nor do I want to. I really do believe, at this point in time, we agree to disagree because neither of us are going to budge on this topic.


By the way, I have nothing against feminists. Actually, I respect alot of them because of the good that they have done for the country. Well at least here in america. Feminists are the cause of fall of much of the old worn out traditions in this country that needed to go, and without them I'd be on the streets when I was younger because my mom had to work as a single mother for much of my childhood. So without them, the country would be a very different place.

And I am a secret feminist.

:thumbsup:

[ninurta2008]

I really do believe, at this point in time, we agree to disagree because neither of us are going to budge on this topic.

Fair enough.


And that is why I said she is connected to it etymologically wise.
my name and the apostle matthew have names linked etymologically, as well as being the same name, though we are vastly different.


If it can mean both, why is that an error?
It's not an error, nevermind, I was being too much of a sumerian grammar nazi. I forget, there isn't a neuter english word for lord/lady.


Which is why I said that the connection is only etymologically wise.
Okay. There we can agree, but we can also agree that etymologically speaking, devil and god are related etymologically, as both come from the indo-european Daeva meaning deity.


You're not understanding what I'm saying. You wrote: "Unless we are refering to a Lilitu that is neither semitic nor sumerian." I said I believe it's a combination of such. That's not being historically incorrect.
Combination of what though? I honestly, that's why I asked, I was unclear as to what you were saying.


Don't assume I'm not sticking to historical facts because I am. It's why I'm loathe to stick with any demon/goddess attribute. Plus, I'm an agnostic so beliefs are very different.
I am not assuming anything. I am just saying that if someone (anyone) wants to see her as a goddess, its not historically accurate but thats their perogative.


Actually, it kinda does matter if it is a minority or majority. It matters when people make huge generalizations about feminists that cause others to stereotype us into little boxes.
I meant as in it doesn't matter in this case, where we are discussing the origins of a myth. i am not stereotyping feminists, and I agree, its wrong to stereotype anything or anyone.


I love history and, while I'm not a recon, I do try to be historically accurate in everything I do. It's why I'm not so clear cut on Lilith's history.
I am only clear cut on her history because I have seen so much on her history that I feel that I can draw a conclusion on the evidence before me. Though that is not to say more isn''t out there, and indeed i will accept new information if its historical. But that is fine, you don't have to be clear cut on it.


I'm not trying in any way to revision Lilith's history nor do I want to. I really do believe, at this point in time, we agree to disagree because neither of us are going to budge on this topic.
I agree, let's agree to disagree. It's probably the only conclusion we'll arrive at anyway.

[Philosophia]

my name and the apostle matthew have names linked etymologically, as well as being the same name, though we are vastly different.

And my name and the goddess Diana have names etymologically connected as well but we're different.


It's not an error, nevermind, I was being too much of a sumerian grammar nazi. I forget, there isn't a neuter english word for lord/lady.

Ah, okay. You had me confused there for a second.


Okay. There we can agree, but we can also agree that etymologically speaking, devil and god are related etymologically, as both come from the indo-european Daeva meaning deity.

Yep. :thumbsup:


Combination of what though? I honestly, that's why I asked, I was unclear as to what you were saying.

A combination of different mythologies. For example, there is supposedly a connection with the Lamias in ancient Greece,


I am not assuming anything. I am just saying that if someone (anyone) wants to see her as a goddess, its not historically accurate but thats their perogative.

Sorry about that. _inabox_ I assumed (very incorrectly) that you were talking about me.


I meant as in it doesn't matter in this case, where we are discussing the origins of a myth. i am not stereotyping feminists, and I agree, its wrong to stereotype anything or anyone.

Ah, okay. Sorry again.


I am only clear cut on her history because I have seen so much on her history that I feel that I can draw a conclusion on the evidence before me. Though that is not to say more isn''t out there, and indeed i will accept new information if its historical. But that is fine, you don't have to be clear cut on it.

Thank you. I've read a lot about Lilith and talked to many of her followers


I agree, let's agree to disagree. It's probably the only conclusion we'll arrive at anyway.

:thumbsup: I have a feeling that we're just going to continue butting heads on this. Plus, I have to apologize for my attitude and tone. Blame it on the heat here and my internet connection becoming crap. :hugz:

[ninurta2008]

A combination of different mythologies. For example, there is supposedly a connection with the Lamias in ancient Greece,
I see what you are saying now, maybe she became a demon through the blending of different beings. That is very possible, though we'll never know.

O and Lilitu doesn't mean wind, it means wind-moon, when I think of -itu I keep thinking akkadian and it is wrong of me because we aren't talking semitic. I found this out reading www.templeofsumer.org

Maybe she is the moon goddess of a culture related to sumerians, whose language wasn't written down and is now lost in time and is unretrievable.


Sorry about that. _inabox_ I assumed (very incorrectly) that you were talking about me.
It's okay, don't worry about it. There are always misunderstandings in debates.


:thumbsup: I have a feeling that we're just going to continue butting heads on this. Plus, I have to apologize for my attitude and tone. Blame it on the heat here and my internet connection becoming crap. :hugz:
Ah, no need to apologise, debates get heated, then they cool down after. Actually it's funny you say this, because I thought we were about to agree and did agree on some points.:uhhuhuh:

[Circe3]

I'm not sure what to make of Lilith, I have given little thought to her as a diety. Sometimes I think she was the first feminist and made evil because the bible doesn't put women and men on the same level. Other times, I think she may be an evil entity. But I'm truly not sure. My ex bought this statue of Lilith a while back when we were still together, it was black stone and just her head and part of her chest but it gave me bad feelings in general so I've tried my best to stay away from her as any form of entity.