Triple Gods and Earth Fathers?

[Russ]

So we know many Pagans especially those following a Wiccan path believe in a Triple Goddess; Also the Ancients often honored Triple Goddesses. In addition to this many Pagans also often honor an Earth Mother.

Inspired by this thread. (http://mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=212079) I got to thinking, what about Triple Gods like Odin? What about Earth Fathers like the Dagda?

What do you think folks?

Interesting idea?
New why of looking at old practices?
Horrible misogynist?

[Nox_Mortus]

Well the triple god thing is utilized quite widely in one of the worlds most popular religions (Christianity) but I can see what you're getting at.

My opinion (as a Trad. Wiccan) as that it's sort of unnecessary, we have a god, he doesn't need to be divided into three aspects (although he's often divided into two) same with the Idea of an earth father, though of course if those ideas appeal to you, you've got as you mentioned Norse and Celtic reconstructionism respectively.

[David19]

Personally, I'd like to know why so many people have to make a God or Goddess be related to the earth in any way, or nature-based, or fatherly, at all?.

[Nuadu]

I can only speak from my experiance with Irish Paganism but I would guess that they are copying traditional religions rather then making a god relate to the land and nature.

In ireland the deities are the land around us, their names are on everything from rivers and mountains to the largest eccliasticly (sp?) founded towns. Maynooth for example where I live has Irelands oldest Pontifical college Saint Patricks and the town grew up around the religious settlement... but the name is pre-christian Ma Nuad - The Plain of Nuadu.

Another good example of an historical religious practice is the sacred marriage in our culture defined more broadly in Frazers The Golden Bough. The King marries the sovereign Goddess who if the king is worthy provides fertility in the harvest, fecundity in the cattle and aids the family group in battle. The sovereign goddesses in Ireland are primarily associated with the land, its plains and mountains. Mountains that lost their prechristian names still have female associations Sliabh na mban - Mountain of the women, Sliabh na Callli - the mountain of the witch and the same associations are in our early mythology.

I think the way wicca applies the concept is different but it was founded in a different culture to Irish culture and its new life in America is further removed from us again so its fairly justifiably different

[Russ]

Well the triple god thing is utilized quite widely in one of the worlds most popular religions (Christianity) but I can see what you're getting at.

My opinion (as a Trad. Wiccan) as that it's sort of unnecessary, we have a god, he doesn't need to be divided into three aspects (although he's often divided into two) same with the Idea of an earth father, though of course if those ideas appeal to you, you've got as you mentioned Norse and Celtic reconstructionism respectively.

Agreed. Just with the horned Goddess thing and moves to assign traditionally male attributes to the feminine I started wondering how this could go the opposite way.

Obviously somethings can't Women's Mysteries are Women's Mysteries and Men's Mysteries are Men's Mysteries.


Personally, I'd like to know why so many people have to make a God or Goddess be related to the earth in any way, or nature-based, or fatherly, at all?.

This is true. I've always found it interesting that the Gods that have this attributes often get ignored in favor of more popular Gods.

Such as how people try to make Freya the Goddess of homes, motherhood ect. and totally forget about Frigga.

[Deerwoman]

Personally, I'd like to know why so many people have to make a God or Goddess be related to the earth in any way, or nature-based, or fatherly, at all?
Because the oldest gods with the most prominent cults are gods of the earth or the sun. Osiris, Dionysus, Tammuz, the Greenman, John Barleycorn... all gods/spirits of the earth, of life, death and rebirth - they are representatives of the earth's green mantle. There are plenty of "earth fathers."

[Rick]

Ingvi Frey is an Earth god.

How do you figure that Odin is a 'triple' god?

[Louisvillian]

So we know many Pagans especially those following a Wiccan path believe in a Triple Goddess
I view the god I worship as having a triple aspect, if only because I view the goddess I worship as having a triple aspect; and that's because Wiccan liturgy has always had the goddess hold a triple form.
Of course, I use the term "aspect" lightly. I don't think the goddess literally transforms from a maiden to a mother to an old lady; those are liturgical, mythological metaphors for describing the goddess' influence in the process of natural existence. To me, it's only logical that her consort works similarly.


; Also the Ancients often honored Triple Goddesses.
Incorrect. There are maybe one or two examples of pagans of antiquity worshipping a deity that has a triple form. Triads (three separate deities associated with one another for a certain purpose) are attested to, but are very different from a triple goddess, and were still quite rare.
The "Triple Goddess" concept as it is utilised in Wicca and neopaganism is pretty much a modern innovation.

[Russ]

Ingvi Frey is an Earth god.

How do you figure that Odin is a 'triple' god?

Epic Fail for forgetting about Frey.

Didn't Odin from time to time appear as High, Just As High and Third in the lore?


I view the god I worship as having a triple aspect, if only because I view the goddess I worship as having a triple aspect; and that's because Wiccan liturgy has always had the goddess hold a triple form.
Of course, I use the term "aspect" lightly. I don't think the goddess literally transforms from a maiden to a mother to an old lady; those are liturgical, mythological metaphors for describing the goddess' influence in the process of natural existence. To me, it's only logical that her consort works similarly.

I think A. J. Drew wrote about this in one of his books.


Incorrect. There are maybe one or two examples of pagans of antiquity worshipping a deity that has a triple form. Triads (three separate deities associated with one another for a certain purpose) are attested to, but are very different from a triple goddess, and were still quite rare.
The "Triple Goddess" concept as it is utilised in Wicca and neopaganism is pretty much a modern innovation.

Wouldn't be the first time I got mixed up by bad scholarship. :bigredgri

[Rick]

Didn't Odin from time to time appear as High, Just As High and Third in the lore?

For a fact... along with a couple dozen other kennings... :hehehehe:

[David19]

This is true. I've always found it interesting that the Gods that have this attributes often get ignored in favor of more popular Gods.

Such as how people try to make Freya the Goddess of homes, motherhood ect. and totally forget about Frigga.

I know, it's funny, there are some people who want to make every Goddess to be a mother, even if she wasn't, or, even if she does have kids, they make her out to be a Motherly-Goddess, like what happens with Inanna, she was said to have one kid, named Sara (a male), but, she wasn't a Motherly-Goddess, but, more of a independent woman, who took what she wanted, when she wanted, who slept with who she wanted, when she wanted, etc. It seems for all the talk about how Pagans support equality between genders, it doesn't work out in practice, as some can't accept a God who's of the earth, and a Goddess who doesn't have anything to do with the earth, or being a Mother, etc. Also, I don't understand the need for Gods to be related to the earth or nature at all, some might be, but, some are also patrons of things that don't fit into the category of nature, like sorcery (for example, the Aztec God, Texcatlipoca, Odin (I think, right?), Enki (a God of magic, but, also, water and wisdom), etc), then, you hav war Gods, and everything else.




Because the oldest gods with the most prominent cults are gods of the earth or the sun. Osiris, Dionysus, Tammuz, the Greenman, John Barleycorn... all gods/spirits of the earth, of life, death and rebirth - they are representatives of the earth's green mantle. There are plenty of "earth fathers."

True, but, that doesn't mean all Gods have to be related to nature or the earth. Gods can just be Gods, IMO.

[Russ]

Odin (I think, right?)

You are correct sir.

A short list of Odin's patronages [Abridged]

Runes
Sorcery
Death
Poetry
Sleep
Sex
Kings
Priests
The Wild Hunt
Fathers
Warfare
Politicians

As for the Earth you got a point. Really I just noted of late more and more Goddess being moved into what has been the male realm i. e. the Horned Goddess and wonder about the reverse being also true.

As you point out for all our talks of equality it seems some want to keep all females as Mothers and then hand them all authority leaving men to be well hug buddies and even then that is to be disposed of once a way to let two eggs fertilize each other without sperm is figured out.

Thine disclaimer: This is based on the majority of my run ins with females in the pagan community, your experiences my very. Some assembly required. Fnord. Do not feed these concepts after midnight. Your millage my very. [Your advertisement here]. If you experience pain or discomfort stop contemplating this ideas and see your Shaman, Witch Doctor, Reiki Healer or other metaphysical healing practitioner at once.

[David19]

You are correct sir.

A short list of Odin's patronages [Abridged]

Runes
Sorcery
Death
Poetry
Sleep
Sex
Kings
Priests
The Wild Hunt
Fathers
Warfare
Politicians

I knew about all the others, with the exception of the last one, I didn't know Odin was associated with politicians, I wonder what he thought of Bush?!.


As for the Earth you got a point. Really I just noted of late more and more Goddess being moved into what has been the male realm i. e. the Horned Goddess and wonder about the reverse being also true.

As you point out for all our talks of equality it seems some want to keep all females as Mothers and then hand them all authority leaving men to be well hug buddies and even then that is to be disposed of once a way to let two eggs fertilize each other without sperm is figured out.

Thine disclaimer: This is based on the majority of my run ins with females in the pagan community, your experiences my very. Some assembly required. Fnord. Do not feed these concepts after midnight. Your millage my very. [Your advertisement here]. If you experience pain or discomfort stop contemplating this ideas and see your Shaman, Witch Doctor, Reiki Healer or other metaphysical healing practitioner at once.

QFT, that's true (although I haven't had run-ins with Pagan females, 'cause, I'm not in an offline Pagan community, although I do know one Pagan-ish girl), personally, I really hate how some people will say they're for equality, and fighting against patriarchy, yet, at the same time, basically, state that the highest honour for a female is to be a Mother, and imply that all females are motherly and caring (I could introduce them to some girls, which would make them change their minds). Like I said before, I don't see what's wrong with just seeing a God as a God, not forcing them into a nature category or earth-based category, or typical gender role, etc. Obvously, some may fit one or more of those, but, not all Gods do.

[Louisvillian]

I knew about all the others, with the exception of the last one, I didn't know Odin was associated with politicians
Well, if you're associated with kingship and law, then politics is right up your alley. :toofless:

[Russ]

I knew about all the others, with the exception of the last one, I didn't know Odin was associated with politicians, I wonder what he thought of Bush?!.

I admit it is a UPG from his association with Kings and being the Cheif God.


QFT, that's true (although I haven't had run-ins with Pagan females, 'cause, I'm not in an offline Pagan community, although I do know one Pagan-ish girl), personally, I really hate how some people will say they're for equality, and fighting against patriarchy, yet, at the same time, basically, state that the highest honour for a female is to be a Mother, and imply that all females are motherly and caring (I could introduce them to some girls, which would make them change their minds).

Don't forget men are the source of all evil!


Like I said before, I don't see what's wrong with just seeing a God as a God, not forcing them into a nature category or earth-based category, or typical gender role, etc. Obvously, some may fit one or more of those, but, not all Gods do.

Nothing wrong with it technically, but those roles do help define who the God is. Just as my current job as a Security Officer defines a part of who I am.

Also there real handy when you need to find a God to help you with a certain issue in your life.

Example: Need a girl try a love god, need money try a god of the Earth (Harvest of wealth), ect.

[David19]

Well, if you're associated with kingship and law, then politics is right up your alley. :toofless:


I admit it is a UPG from his association with Kings and being the Cheif God.

That's true, I never thought of that.




Don't forget men are the source of all evil!

Of course, we are!, and everything would be better if there was a matriarchy instead!.


Nothing wrong with it technically, but those roles do help define who the God is. Just as my current job as a Security Officer defines a part of who I am.

Also there real handy when you need to find a God to help you with a certain issue in your life.

Example: Need a girl try a love god, need money try a god of the Earth (Harvest of wealth), ect.

True, but, what I mean was, you can still categorise the Gods, but, I don't see why some people have to make every God be associated with the earth or nature, for example, some Gods are patrons of non-natural subjects, e.g. sorcery, war, technology, science, etc. I definitely agree categories can help you know who to turn too, whether you need help with love, money, whatever, etc.