Knot magic?

[Willow Rosette]

I was at the book store flipping through books and ran across something on knot magic. I thought I wrote it down with the other things I found interesting but since it isnt in my notes I obviously didnt.

I found it very interesting. I remember it said when pulling the knot to (something along the lines of) the energy is sent out while a physical reminder (the knot remains).

Has any one done anything like this?

[Clair de la Lune]

Shoot, I remember reading something about it too, but I don't remember if it was a book in a store or if it is somewhere in one I already have, lol. If I find out, I will post it. ;) Great you brought it up though... :)

[Willow Rosette]

LOL I know where I was when I saw it but just not what book. Normally I keep little notes on what books I enjoyed and what to buy or little quotes that touched a cord with me. I did it with a couple others although they were books I have in storage and cant get to. This was something different but if Im making notes I dont know why I didnt note this as well.

[sleepycat]

Hi Willow,
I haven't 'met' you here before, omly been on the board about a month.
I like and use knot magic. What would you like to know ( Not saying I'll know the answer for sure)

[Deerwoman]

Using knots in magic is very traditional and has a long history. They are used for different types of magic as well. Clouties (biodegradable cloth rags) were tied to trees near sacred wells for healing; Cunning folk would recite a charm while tying knots in red thread and place it around a sick person's neck to heal and protect them; spun and/or knotted witch's ladders were used for cursing or healing; knotted cords are commonly used in bindings; "tying the wind" from folklore was the practice of catching the wind in a cord tied with three knots which could then be released at will to "control" the wind; the knots tied into a witch's cord have special significance depending on tradition and individual practitioner; and there is also a more modern knotted wish cord used in spell work listed below:

By knot of one, The spells' begun
By knot of two, It cometh true
By knot of three, Thus shall it be
By knot of four, 'Tis strengthened more
By knot of five, So may it thrive
By knot of six, The spell we fix
By knot of seven, The stars in heaven
By knot of eight, The hand of fate
By knot of nine, It shall be mine!

[BlackLili]

History of Knot Magic (http://www.sacredspiral.com/articles/hijk/knothist.htm)

Examples of Knot Magic (http://witchery.wordpress.com/2007/05/25/knot-magic)

Middle Eastern Knot Magic - Historical (http://www.geocities.com/soho/lofts/2938/magic6knots.html)

All good resources there. Not sure which book you looked at, but Amazon had several Pagan books that talk about various forms of it. Judika Iles and Dorothy Morrison discuss it in several books I'm aware of. Good luck finding the book you saw! :thumbsup:

[Willow Rosette]

Hi Willow,
I haven't 'met' you here before, omly been on the board about a month.
I like and use knot magic. What would you like to know ( Not saying I'll know the answer for sure)

Hi sleepycat! Your right I dont believe we have talked before. It is nice to meet you!!

For some reason this seemed to "make sence" with out knowing anything about it so anything you can add about your practice would be fantastic. Thank you for offering!




By knot of one, The spells' begun
By knot of two, It cometh true
By knot of three, Thus shall it be
By knot of four, 'Tis strengthened more
By knot of five, So may it thrive
By knot of six, The spell we fix
By knot of seven, The stars in heaven
By knot of eight, The hand of fate
By knot of nine, It shall be mine!


Deerwoman thank you. I really like that alot. Did you write it? If not Id like to know who did so I can research it!

Blacklili I havent read your links yet since I just sat down but Im going to right now. Thank you so much for taking the time to look them up for me!!

[Shawn Blackwolf]

I shall offer you something from my Tradition , Willow...

First , most here know I am a teacher , and adept of the
Faery Tradition...yet , I am also Wieckaan...not Wiccan ,
the modern variety...we are the Olde Way...

So...there is reason I mention this...and , to show , in our
ancient Tradition , number was always important...

Many also know I work with the Obri - Runic gematria...

Number - Symbols , with sounds...sonics , as well...

Okay...background done...:thumbsup:

To proceed...we have certain arrangements of runes , in
columns , rings , and other formations...these each have
a number value , as each symbol composing the form , has
it's own value...

So...one of our numbers , regarding these forms , is 1318...

And , to begin...

Via gematria , the words :

Knot Mgieck = 808 ( 600 + 208 )

As well :

Wieckaan = 808 ( or a "low" value of 248 )

Yet further :

Knot Mgieck : Cord And Nine Rhyme = 1319
( 808 + 40 + 44 + 147 + 259 )

Now , we have columns of eight , with a ninth
level rune added for it's fixative nature...:uhhuhuh:...

Rather interesting...:smileroll...shaped like a straight line
or cord , shall we say ?

When we have one of those eight columns...with the ninth...

The value is 610...and 609 , is the value for our word :

Wieckacrreayafth = 609...

Further...and now , I post our Faery Tree :

http://mysticwicks.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=79314&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1201416195 (http://mysticwicks.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=79314&d=1201416195)



I shall use this to further illustrate our Tradition...

The "low" value for the symbols composing the Tree ,
is 1495...

Knot Mgieck : Cord , Rhyme , And 344 = 1495
( 808 + 40 + 259 + 44 + 344 )

If you consult the Tree diagram , the four pairs of symbols ,
surrounding the central axis , equal 344...they are the four
pairs of elemental runes for Water , Air , Fire , and Earth...

I bring your attention to the reality...as you tie a knot in the
cord...you would be making the motion to circle through the
four elements , if the central axis represented the straight cord...

Could this be what we intended ?

Hmmm...

Knot Mgieck : Cord And Rhyme = 1151

Which happens to be the sum of all the symbols , along the
central axis...:bigredgri...as well :

Blue Fire = 1151

Then , to illustrate further :

Knot Mgieck Is Binding By Elements = 1495
( 808 + 310 + 40 + 110 + 227 )

And , to show how everything for our Tradition , must be
connected through the Weave...

Wieckaan Rhyme Of Nine = 804
( 248 + 259 + 150 + 147 )

And , the top two , and bottom two pairs of runes , in the Tree ,
equal 803...leaving the center , as a knot...in this context...:uhhuhuh:

Well...could that be what we intended ?

Let us take the value : 1495 - 803 = 692

Thus the center of the Tree , is value 692...

And , it just so happens :

Knots In Cord = 693
( 209 + 190 + 294 )

( Spelling Knots , and Cord , with runes this time )

So , you see...this was only a very small part of our
knowledge of Knot Mgieck...

Do note :

The central axis , as the Cord , reaches from underworlds ,
to the aboveworlds of the Tree...

As would our spell , along with the bindforce of the elements...

Another time , perhaps...I shall share our spell of three cords ,
white , red , and black , braided together , with the song which
goes with them , to bind a person's fate...maybe...:smileroll...

Best to all...blessings...:thumbsup:

[Deerwoman]

Um... so.. ya... :confused:


Deerwoman thank you. I really like that alot. Did you write it? If not Id like to know who did so I can research it!
I didn't write it, it's been passed around the internet quite a bit, but I rather like it. Below is my rendition of how to use the charm:




Knotted Wish Cord




Take a new piece of thread, cord or yarn you have spun and tie nine knots into it, whisper a line of the chant with each then blowing onto each knot as you tie it, bringing your wish to life and charging the cord with your energy and intention.

By knot of one, The spells' begun
By knot of two, It cometh true
By knot of three, Thus shall it be
By knot of four, 'Tis strengthened more
By knot of five, So may it thrive
By knot of six, The spell we fix
By knot of seven, The stars in heaven
By knot of eight, The hand of fate
By knot of nine, It shall be mine!

Carry this knotted cord or thread on your person for a few days and gradually untie each knot to release your spell so it may work. The wish must be for yourself or affect you personally. To further increase the wish cord’s connection to you, tie objects or charms either representing you or which you hold dear onto the cord.

[Shawn Blackwolf]

Um... so.. ya...

The idea of the nine rhyme is ancient , not new...

All rituals , as passed down into modern tradition , came from
a far older source tradition , which knew an ancient code system they all
based their ceremonies on by number , symbol , color , etc...

It was the Old Graymmaerr , some know as the "Lost Witch's
Language"...or...the original "Book of Shadows" , or by other
names around the world...

So...as some of us know...there was once no seperation between
that which has come to be known as "High" or "Low" magic...

No seperation , for instance , between Witch , or Mason...

Or , in Native Tradition , Deermen , and Owl Witches...

We were sisters and brothers , in one tradition...

Stemming from one code...

But sadly , most do not know , disbelieve , or outright deny this ,
that we know as truth...but , that is their loss...

Just to help you understand , as well others...:thumbsup:

[Teresa]

You have gotten some great replies thus far, my opinion is that it is one of the easier kinds of magic to work with. :thumbsup:

[Willow Rosette]

I did not expect so many responses to my question. Thank you all so very much for sharing your path beliefs. This is really amazing!!

[Clair de la Lune]

I find it amazing as well! Some beliefs seem to complicate it (probably until it is better understood), and others seem to over-simplify it (or at least the book I had seen it in did...I wish I could remember the title now).

I think it is very interesting how there are similarities and differences in the traditions.:smile:

Thank you for starting the thread, WR, and thank you to everyone for contributing thus far!:thumbsup:

[Teresa]

I find it amazing as well! Some beliefs seem to complicate it (probably until it is better understood), and others seem to over-simplify it (or at least the book I had seen it in did...I wish I could remember the title now).

I think it is very interesting how there are similarities and differences in the traditions.:smile:

Thank you for starting the thread, WR, and thank you to everyone for contributing thus far!:thumbsup:

Well it is a kind of magic that can be as simple or complex as you decide.

[Clair de la Lune]

Well it is a kind of magic that can be as simple or complex as you decide.

Thanks...

With that in mind, I think I will keep it as simple as possible, at least to start out. :)

[Shawn Blackwolf]

As is the universe , both simple , and yet , most complex...

And to see through the lens of both the infant , and old sage ,
defines the adept , and initiate well versed...

Ultimately , the path any follow , if one follows their path to it's end , comes to that crossroads , and breakthrough...

The heart of a child , mind of a sage...:thumbsup:

Or , as has been said by one of our Tradition :

"Be Ye As Wise As Serpents , As Gentle As Doves"...:)


Well it is a kind of magic that can be as simple or complex as you decide.

[Teresa]

Thanks...

With that in mind, I think I will keep it as simple as possible, at least to start out. :)

It is better to start off with simple and work into more detailed things eventually dealing with complex. Then once you have mastered this, you will know enough to discern what is needed for a situation. It also helps you to gain confidence in your workings to gradually build upon a foundation.

You can determine when you just need simplicity or when something a little more detailed is required.

It can become a fun activity too if you are choosing to come up with a rhyme to use for a certain spell. I loved playing on words to get the job done. That may be why now I can hear a song and come up with a parody on the spot.

[Shawn Blackwolf]

Well said , Teresa ...of course !

( As I teach my students..."Process Orientation"... )


It is better to start off with simple and work into more detailed things eventually dealing with complex. Then once you have mastered this, you will know enough to discern what is needed for a situation. It also helps you to gain confidence in your workings to gradually build upon a foundation.

You can determine when you just need simplicity or when something a little more detailed is required.

[skilly-nilly]

Or , as has been said by one of our Tradition : "Be Ye As Wise As Serpents , As Gentle As Doves"...:)

Whether Jesus was or was not a member of Shawn's tradition (which cannot be determined) in this statement He was addressing His disciples and giving them advice? protocols to follow? directives about their ministry:
"Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves."
Matthew 10:16

Or in explication:
"Our Lord warned his disciples to prepare for persecution. They were to avoid all things which gave advantage to their enemies, all meddling with worldly or political concerns, all appearance of evil or selfishness, and all underhand measures. Christ foretold troubles, not only that the troubles might not be a surprise, but that they might confirm their faith. He tells them what they should suffer, and from whom."
http://bible.cc/matthew/10-16.htm

It's an action directive, not an understanding one, it seems to me.





The idea of the nine rhyme is ancient , not new... All rituals , as passed down into modern tradition , came from a far older source tradition , which knew an ancient code system they all based their ceremonies on by number , symbol , color , etc...

So...as some of us know...there was once no seperation between that which has come to be known as "High" or "Low" magic... No seperation , for instance , between Witch , or Mason... Or , in Native Tradition , Deermen , and Owl Witches... We were sisters and brothers , in one tradition... Stemming from one code... But sadly , most do not know , disbelieve , or outright deny this , that we know as truth...but , that is their loss... Just to help you understand , as well others...:thumbsup:

I believe that a great deal of what we consider to be 'real' is in fact perceptual. That is, reality is largely in our minds and not external.

My personal beliefs are founded on both folklore and the teachings of Jung. So, if there is a folkloric practice like knot magic that is used in many different cultures and places I would say that the similarities or widespread-ness of the practice doesn't depend on the different practitioners being in some kind of mystic communication but on all of the different practitioners each independently accessing the same fundamental truth from the well of the collective unconscious.
Historically (say pre-Renaissance as a marker-time) European folk practitioners (wise-workers, skilly people, and wort masters) tended to be insular and illiterate. But their Magic worked, and had similarities to other Magics. This doesn't mean imo that it was the same Magic in all cases but that those Spell-Casters had each found something that worked.

Since Shawn scorns and repudiates historical references and empirical proof it is impossible to say what is 'real' in his tradition and what is his perception. But everybody's belief system is, in the end, personal because it has no real existence outside the mind.

So what I'm saying is that experimentation (careful and gradual experimentation, certainly) is the best way of finding what works for you. Discussing what works for other people is valid and useful, but you have to remember that their practices may not translate into your perceptions directly.

[Shawn Blackwolf]

Simply said...you can believe whatever you will...

Your right...I don't contest that...

However , my IRL students , past , and present...

Some of whom are MW members...have seen the reality ,
and validity of what I speak of...

And yes...that expression of serpents and doves , comes
right out of our double eight column...

Top two symbols , equal qabalistically : Dove

Bottom two : Serpent

Two columns of each...Serpents and Doves...

But as I said...believe what you want , understand what you
choose , and good fortune on your path...

I know what I teach , and who I am...very well , thank you...:thumbsup:
Whether Jesus was or was not a member of Shawn's tradition (which cannot be determined) in this statement He was addressing His disciples and giving them advice? protocols to follow? directives about their ministry:
"Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves."
Matthew 10:16

Or in explication:
"Our Lord warned his disciples to prepare for persecution. They were to avoid all things which gave advantage to their enemies, all meddling with worldly or political concerns, all appearance of evil or selfishness, and all underhand measures. Christ foretold troubles, not only that the troubles might not be a surprise, but that they might confirm their faith. He tells them what they should suffer, and from whom."
http://bible.cc/matthew/10-16.htm

It's an action directive, not an understanding one, it seems to me.






I believe that a great deal of what we consider to be 'real' is in fact perceptual. That is, reality is largely in our minds and not external.

My personal beliefs are founded on both folklore and the teachings of Jung. So, if there is a folkloric practice like knot magic that is used in many different cultures and places I would say that the similarities or widespread-ness of the practice doesn't depend on the different practitioners being in some kind of mystic communication but on all of the different practitioners each independently accessing the same fundamental truth from the well of the collective unconscious.
Historically (say pre-Renaissance as a marker-time) European folk practitioners (wise-workers, skilly people, and wort masters) tended to be insular and illiterate. But their Magic worked, and had similarities to other Magics. This doesn't mean imo that it was the same Magic in all cases but that those Spell-Casters had each found something that worked.

Since Shawn scorns and repudiates historical references and empirical proof it is impossible to say what is 'real' in his tradition and what is his perception. But everybody's belief system is, in the end, personal because it has no real existence outside the mind.

So what I'm saying is that experimentation (careful and gradual experimentation, certainly) is the best way of finding what works for you. Discussing what works for other people is valid and useful, but you have to remember that their practices may not translate into your perceptions directly.

[Willow Rosette]

Since Shawn scorns and repudiates historical references and empirical proof it is impossible to say what is 'real' in his tradition and what is his perception. But everybody's belief system is, in the end, personal because it has no real existence outside the mind.

Wow I some I didnt realise when I made this thread it was a bash Shawn thread. Which is really funny cause I thought it was asking peoples experience/knowledge about knot magic and not your personal opinion and lack of respect for another member!

[skilly-nilly]

So what I'm saying is that experimentation (careful and gradual experimentation, certainly) is the best way of finding what works for you. Discussing what works for other people is valid and useful, but you have to remember that their practices may not translate into your perceptions directly.

See that "you" there? That's about you.


Wow I some I didnt realise when I made this thread it was a bash Shawn thread. Which is really funny cause I thought it was asking peoples experience/knowledge about knot magic and not your personal opinion and lack of respect for another member!

There are endless choices when it comes to belief and practices, as you can see from the varied uses of knot magic cited by the posters. One of the informative posts is Shawn's-- post 8.
His practice is very complex and his post doesn't actually have anything to do with tying knots in things for magical purposes.

I read that and thought , 'that's a little ot' but having a diversity of opinions expressed is a good thing, imo. Other people pointed out that the practice doesn't have to be so complex, so the assumed newbies who are reading the thread shouldn't feel that Shawn's way is the only way.... no harm, no foul.

It's Shawn who says that his way is the 'right' way:
"But sadly , most do not know , disbelieve , or outright deny this ,
that we know as truth...but , that is their loss...

Just to help you understand , as well others.."

I think that when a general folkloric practice (such as knot magic) is under discussion, it's very important to make it clear to the op asking for opinions and people's experiences that every tradition's practices will vary and every person's discovery of 'what works' will be a little different.

That's my stance. It has nothing to do with Shawn or anyone else; I believe that Magic-Working is an experiential practice. You can read about modern and historical usage and get some good guidelines, you can discuss it with other practitioners and get some good advice, but you have to actually DO it (starting small and working upwards in complexity) to learn about it.

Shawn implies that his tradition is the true one "Stemming from one code..." but everyone's beliefs are true for them.

When he makes unprovable historical statements such as identifying Jesus as a member of his tradition or inaccurate extrapolations of quotes such as taking Jesus' advice to the apostles and using it generally I think it's important to mention that there are other interpretations of Shawn's pronouncements that the ones he is using.

So I did hijack 'your' thread briefly with Jesus and I apologize if that troubled you.

My main point, which is that knot magic is a varied and mutable folkloric practice, and not necessarily a part of Gimatria/Gematria as Shawn says:

"All rituals , as passed down into modern tradition , came from
a far older source tradition , which knew an ancient code system they all
based their ceremonies on by number , symbol , color , etc..."

isn't really about Shawn at all either, it's about Magical Practice and its internal validity for each individual that has to be discovered by each individual.

[BlackLili]

Wow. :fofftopic

Way to rant-out a thread, Skilly. :rant:

[Shawn Blackwolf]

There are endless choices when it comes to belief and practices, as you can see from the varied uses of knot magic cited by the posters. One of the informative posts is Shawn's-- post 8.
His practice is very complex and his post doesn't actually have anything to do with tying knots in things for magical purposes.



Incorrect...my post is completely about cord , and knot mgieck ,
from my Tradition's viewpoint , and practices...



It's Shawn who says that his way is the 'right' way:
"But sadly , most do not know , disbelieve , or outright deny this ,
that we know as truth...but , that is their loss...

Just to help you understand , as well others.."

Shawn implies that his tradition is the true one "Stemming from one code..." but everyone's beliefs are true for them.

"All rituals , as passed down into modern tradition , came from
a far older source tradition , which knew an ancient code system they all
based their ceremonies on by number , symbol , color , etc..."


It is my right to speak my truth as I know it , and confirmed
by elders from different traditions , native , aboriginal , and
from shamanistic , ceremonial , withchcraft , masonic , and
many other sources , over many years...

Yet , as I also have stated many times over my years on MW...

It is everyone's choice to believe...and follow their own path...

As per this post :

"But as I said...believe what you want , understand what you choose , and good fortune on your path...

I know what I teach , and who I am...very well , thank you...:thumbsup:"

I offer what I can to assist others , from my heart...

It would be nice if your long history of criticizing my ways ,
beliefs , and practices , would end...

Meanwhile...Willow , is there anything I can assist you in
further understanding of my post , or the application thereof ?

Or anyone else ?

[Deerwoman]

No one's heard of the phrase "don't shoot the messenger"? It's natural for a person to defend themselves when they feel attacked - which is all Skilly Nilly did, but it really should've been Shawn speaking up for himself.

To continue with the knot magic...

Tying knots has also been used in folk magics to counteract things or events for both good and ill using sympathetic magic. There are examples from Scotland of witches tying knots to "tie up" a childbirth - causing a difficult and even fatal delivery. It was also common practice at births to untie all knots in the birthing room and undo any buttons, knots or ties on the expectant mother's clothing so that the birth is easy and unhindered. One of my good friends is going to do this for the birth of her first child. The same thing is done at weddings so there are no complications during the ceremony or the "consummation" of the marriage. If a jealous person wanted to prevent the happy married couple from "getting it on" they would tie a knot to prevent it.

The same concept was applied to other practices. For example there is a tale from Shetland where an eagle flew off with someone's rooster and a cunning man upon seeing this immediately took a string and tied knots in it saying some words, and the eagle let the rooster fall into the sea.

There's also a traditional charm from Scotland for controlling the wind, such rags were often sought after by sailors and fishermen:

I knot this ragg upon this stane,
To raise the wind in the Devillis name;
It sall not lye till I please againe.

To reverse the spell:

We lay the wind in the Devillis name;
It sall not ryse quhill we lyk to raise it again.

Also, knots of red wool were braided into the hair of livestock along with charms or bits of Rowan in order to protect the animals from the evil eye, malevolent witchcraft, fairies, evil spirits, and theft, etc. Similar charms were used by a remote tribe in Africa (I've unfortunately forgotten which one) where they would tie string into a series of knots creating a web and use it as a spirit trap to capture evil and mischevious spirits that may harm the village or any hunters out and about in the forest.

Red string and knots are also very traditional in healing charms. I've used such a charm for a friend who is in pain every day from nasty rheumatism. I hand braided three lengths of red string, each the length of her height - then together we tied a knot at each end of the string reciting a Gaelic healing charm to empower the string. I then gave her another Gaelic charm specifically for rheumatism to recite when she was in extreme pain and to tie a knot when reciting it - to "tie up" the pain. She kept the braided string around her wrist and wore it 24 hours a day for a couple months until it was full of knots and eventually broke and fell off. I imagine it held about as much pain as it possible could. It's time to make her another one!

Sources:

Campell, John Gregorson. The Gaelic Otherworld. Birlinn Limited, 2005.

McNeill, F. Marian. Scottish Folklore and Folk-Belief. The Silver Bough vol.1. William MacLellan, 1977.