Child abuse.........

[Tiana_Ecarias]

I had a call the other day, a friend of mine works at the local court house, and a woman approached her to report some one abusing their child. My friend took down the information, only to find out that teh woman was reporting me.

She broke the rule and called, asking me what happened, and I told her. I had been at the store with my 18 month old son, he kept standing up in the grocery cart. After reapetedly telling him no and such, he stood up one more time, and I tapped him on the butt, and told him to sit his butt down.

He did so, but not with out voicing his disaproval of having to comply, like most children do. The woman reported the same thing, and was outraged that I had hit him.

When did I hit him??? Yes, I did tap him on the butt, after telling him to sit down, and even making him walk for a while(which he also hated) because he wouldn't follow the rule of staying seated in the grocery cart.

Anyways, they invesitageted, and the charges of abuse were dropped thank god, but I've seen a lot of cases where they were only smaking the kid on the butt when nothing else was working have their children taken away.

What are your guys opinions? I don't believe in beating your child senseless, but some children end up with a mouth that no matter what you say, they ignore you and back talk, and need a smart tap in the mouth to get the to actually listen to you.

Tiana_Ecarias

[Scarlettvixen]

To me that isnt abuse Tiana
and I hate the nazis that are out there that think it is abuse.

I dont condone beating kids - but that sounds ridiculous!!!

[Tiana_Ecarias]

I'm glad some one agrees with me, I was mad, but I couldn't help but laugh at the situation.

If that was abuse I'd hate to see what the woman thought was murder!

Tiana_Ecarias

[st0rm]

hmmm... Anyone who thinks thats abuse is just looking for reasons to make some trouble...

[Mythrel]

I see nothing wrong with a swat on the butt...happened to me growing up and I plan to do the same with my kids someday...I think I am a fairly well behaved adult and have a sense of respect that I see alot of kids no days don't have...

IMHO I feel you did the right thing...screw this other person...maybe she needs to get spanked on occassion... then she might keep her nose out of other people's business...

[shnen]

*sigh* this makes me soooo.. hmmm.. upset I guess.
I think kids these days would be better had their parents smacked them in the butt when they were children. I was spanked as a child, and there is no greater fear then waiting in your room thinking about what you did while waiting for mom or dad to come up and give you the spanking. Yes, it hurt, but you know what.. I thought twice about doing it ever again...

such a fine line between abuse and punishment, yet sooo bold...

Tiana, *hugs* you sounds like a wonderful mother. :)

[Yvonne Belisle]

You made the right choice. Hugz to you

[Gwion]

Ever since that video came out of the woman beating her daughter in the parking lot, people are paranoid. Next parents will be accused of "mental anguish" for making the kid stand in the corner. Saturday I saw one woman roundly berate a young mother in the same way because her toddler was not cooperating with getting in the child seat, and she smacked his butt and scolded him. The "guardian angel" in the mini-van had 3 kids, none of them seatbelted, and the van was full of her cigarette smoke. That's what I call child abuse.

[Sowelu]

I agree Gwion........;)

Don't even worry Tiana, you did what you thought was the right thing to do. I would have done the same. I have three children of my own, and usually it only takes that certain "glare" us moms know how to give to get my kids to behave while in the store.
It is still embarrassing to have those people come out and do an inspection, then feel like everyone has their eye on you.
Like everyone says, don't sweat it....your doing a fine job mom.:)

[MammaStar]

It makes you think, would those same people reporting a tap on the butt, report their neighbors who are literally beating the crap out of their kids.

We had a nieghbor when I was a kid. She lived in the apartment upstairs & she beat the crap out of that kid constantly. I started to babysit for him and he did something, I scolded him and he freaked out. I told my mother and the next time we heard her beating him, we called the cops and DSS. Boy she was pissed off at us. I didn't care though. She would knock him around so hard, that you would swear he'd come through the floor. I used to hear him cry & beg for her to stop. It broke my heart & frightened me all at the same time. DSS never came to the house to speak to me or my mom, they just talked to us over the phone. She moved away after the report was made and we never knew what happened to them.

[Sowelu]

:( ....that is very heart-breaking:(

[Flar's Freyja]

Don't get me started :rolleyes:

I was a Child Welfare worker for five years. In my state, we have a very broad reporting law - ANYONE who doesn't report abuse can be fined or jailed. People are paranoid, but what they don't know is that this has rarely been enforced, even with professionals. Teachers and mental health professionals here tend to over report due to paranoia.

What really irks me is that people who jump the gun or report falsely have no idea of the possible consequences. The findings of each investigation are supposed to be based on policy, protocol and certain criteria, but the worker and supervisor also influence the outcome. If the family draws what we used to call a "pickup princess" as an investigator, they could lose their kids unfairly. Also - young children sometimes don't know what they're saying......and if the kid tells the investigator that mom and dad are beating them because they think that's what the worker wants to hear and the worker finds something to support it, there you go. A large part of the investigation is based on the interview with the child and many workers feel that the child should be believed first. An educated, trained, experienced worker can see through this but a white upper middle class just out of school kid might not. And the supervisor gives guidance based on what the worker says without ever meeting the family a great deal of the time.

This state also established a law against bogus reporting that also carries a year in jail and a fine and it has NEVER been enforced :flamer: We spent so much time going out on bogus allegations when kids that were really hurting had to wait, and sometimes we didn't get there in time :(

The good news is that sometimes the family is helped. A friend of mine was reported by a spiteful friend and it forced her to take her problem child to a psycholgist. He received a week of inpatient mental health services and badly needed medication. The investigation was quickly closed and the family is doing much better, so sometimes involvement with Child Welfare is a blessing in disguise.

[SerenityMoon]

tsk.
when will people understand that swatting a child on the butt is not abuse? belittling the child verbally is abuse, slapping him over and over and over is abuse, beating the crap out of him is abuse; swatting once on the butt is far from it.
you sound like a very good mother, Tiana. You have a firm hold of discipline, but you would never try to hurt your children.
it's getting to the point where you can't even discipline your children anymore. If little Johnny goes to school and says in show and tell that he got a spanking last night for hitting his sister, the authorities are called immediately, and little Johnny wonders why mommy and daddy are in trouble; he just wanted to tell the class that he got a spanking and then show off his new truck.. it's sad, it reallyis.

[earthcat]

I concur completely, Tiana. A swat on the butt is a good way to get a child's attention and a way for a parent to establish some control, not child abuse.
((((((((Tiana)))))))))

[Nissala]

I agree that kids need discipline, and sometimes a tap or smack is just what they need. I can relate to this because I had something similar happen when my middle son was 5 (he's 19 now). I was turned in for child abuse because he fell and hit the wooden part of the water bed which resulted in a black eye. The baby sitter was convience that my husband, his father had hit him. to make a long story short, I lost him for three months, my mother took custody for that time or he would have been placed in a home while they investigated. After the investigation they said they made a mistake and said "we're sorry". Devistating the child and us for three months and all we get is an I'm sorry! I was so happy it was over that I didn't think of sueing. About a year later my husband and I divorced. For 6 years my son thought it was his fault because of the black eye incident.... so we all paid dearly for someone else's misunderstanding.:(

[Semele]

I had to spank Trey for the first time in years the other day. It broke his heart and mine as well. I had told him repeatedly not to swing on the closet bar and he kept doing it.I told him if he did it again he would get a spanking with a belt that was hanging there.

A couple of days later he did it and I asked him if he remembered what I had told him and he did. I swatted him once with it and he said, "That didn't hurt." So I swatted him again harder and he cried for about an hour. Finally he would come talk to me, but was so sad. I asked him why and he said "because I can't believe I choosed to be bad and get spanked."

Yay!! Something has stuck after all this time of drilling into his head that we choose to react certain ways. He called me on it one day. I was grouchy and he asked why and I apologized and told him, "Sometimes I don't feel good and it makes me grouchy." He said, "You mean you choose to be grouchy?"

Touche'

As for the abuse issue...I think it is more abusive to threaten things and not follow through, techaing our kids that they can get away without paying the price for thier actions.

My only regret is not putting out the silly dog before I spanked Trey. She is still mad at me and gives me sad looks everytime I get onto Trey. She would report me if she could I am sure of it!

[Djiril]

Originally posted by Freyja
This state also established a law against bogus reporting that also carries a year in jail and a fine and it has NEVER been enforced :flamer: What constitutes a bogus report under that law? How is it different from one where the reporter was simply mistaken?

[Flar's Freyja]

Originally posted by Djiril
What constitutes a bogus report under that law? How is it different from one where the reporter was simply mistaken?

Good faith, meaning that the person may have honestly suspected abuse based on having a good reason; i.e., something they saw, witnessed or heard.

Bogus would be feuding neighbors, freinds, ex's and the like. Unfortunately, I once dealt with a teacher who just plain didn't like the family but this doesn't happen often.

The person who has nothing better to do falls in between. In our state, the information given in a report is reviewed to determine whether or not an investigation is merited. If the report is obviously bogus or ridiculous, those reports are screened out and not investigated, but kept on record. If subsequent calls continue to be received, the family is likely to be investigated later on unless the reports continue to have no valid information. Our hotline had one or two "regulars" who routinely made bogus reports. These people were known to the staff and most of their reports were screened out.

Also: We hear a lot of complaints such as "I called and they never did anything." If you are truly concerned, this is what is required:

Make sure that you have very specific information. An investigation can not be done if you don't know the names of the children and parents and at the very least, the address. The worker has to be able to find the family. Knowing which schools the kids attend is very helpful because if the family can't be found at home, the kids can be found at school and additional info can be gained from talking to school personnel.

Make sure that what you are reporting makes sense, or if you have additional feelings that are telling you that something isn't right, make sure that you can express them clearly. Have specific information; i.e., Sally's left eye is black and blue and she can't tell you how it happened, or what she told you doesn't make sense.

Don't assume that nothing was done. You may have given a wrong address, the family may have moved, or the worker was unable to find anything wrong when they visited. Many times, it's a matter of getting there at the right time. If you continue to have concerns, call again with more information.

If you're honestly not sure, call anyway. As I said above, it will be screened out if there isn't enough to go on or if what you are reporting doesn't fall under what is considered child abuse. For instance, we had an epidemic of indestructable head lice here a few years ago and that in itself is not child abuse. If you think that the family could just benefit from services and you don't think the kids need to be removed, clearly state that.

If possible and your concerns are not urgent or extremely serious, try to talk to the parents first. Sometimes they have a valid explanation.

If you are a child care provider, call when the children are in your care. Don't wait til 2 a.m. on a weekend, especially if you don't know where the family will be at that time. I can't begin to tell you how frequently this happens.

And if you suspect sexual abuse, report it. It's one of the most difficult to prove but it's also the most easily hidden and is something that leaves invisible scars that can affect every area of a child's life into adulthood.

If ever you see something that is an emergency, call the police first. They can remove children immediately. A child welfare worker has no authority to do that without a court order or assistance from law enforcement. You can make the report later or the police will follow up and do so themselves.

[Gwion]

Still, you have to admire the indomitable human spirit, even in a child who, faced with insurmountable odds (Mom) and the belt, still musters the courage to make that one last act of defiance: "That didn't hurt."

[AradiaSupernova]

Sorry for being one of the few who is going to say this, but i disagree with you guys. True, I don't call a little swat on the butt abuse, but I do call it shameful. I don't think it's right to hit children (swat, tap, call it what you like) in any way shape or form. I got hit every now and then when I was a kid, but I don't credit being a well behaved teenager now to that. All hitting a kid does is creates fear of the parent, which is ridiculous in the first place. I respect my parents, but I think it is intollerable when someone strikes a child. Respect is earned, not freely given, which is what I was taught.

But I do think that was a little over the edge for those ppl to call it abuse. If you'd slapped him across the face, ok. But not a tap. Either way I don't agree with it, but it's not abuse.

[SerenityMoon]

*shrug* you're allowed to disagree.
unfortunately, this is one of the most controversial topics to talk about. In our sociology class we had a whole debate about this...there's always going to be a side for it and a side against it, as are most debates.
My philosphy is not to use anything other than your hand to hit a child, and never to slap a child in the face. I think a slap int he face is one of the most humiliating things a child, and even adults, can endure. I see nothing wrong with a swat on the butt or hand (for younger children, ie: child reaches for stove and gets swatted on the hand. child learns not to touch stove, it's simple). I don't agree with belts, paddles, etc...

[Saphra]

I was spanked as a child and I turned out fine..... I mean, I'm not going to go beat the next child that comes into my life. I have swatted my neice on the bottom a couple of times, she threw a fit, and then was fine, but I think it is better to swat their butt for pulling at a cord connected to a outlet, then set them in time-out and let them electrocute themselves when you are out of site..... but that's my own opinion.
I have seen kids brought into the ER by DCFS for swatting ont he butt, and I have also seen them bring in kids that are black and blue from top to bottom, I think this child abuse thing is WAY out of hand.....
((((Tiana))))

[)O( ~ Khara~ )O(]

((((((((((((((((((Tiana)))))))))))))))))))))) I was recently in your situation. My problem was an outraged child and an accident. My youngest was throwing my daughters 4 ft Clifford dog across the room. (DVD and cable box in line of fire) I reached to grab the dog just as he turned around at which point my finger hit his nose scratching his nose, breaking my fingernail and jamming my finger. I cleaned him up, took away his playstation and went on my way. By that afternoon HRS was taking pictures of my son's nose and I was under investigation. He told his teacher I beat him in the face with a belt. Thank the Goddess and all the prayers and positive blessings I received it all turned out ok.

However, I do believe this. Sending a child away for time out is not a good thing, it does 2 things. It alienates him/her from the family and it allows him/her time to feel neglected and unloved. A good quick swat on the butt gets your point across it is over in seconds and life goes on.

When given the choice of a spanking or time out, all my children choose a spanking every time!

[Djiril]

Originally posted by SerenityMoon
ie: child reaches for stove and gets swatted on the hand. child learns not to touch stove, it's simple). The child will probably learn faster if no one stops it (provided there isn't any danger of them getting seriously injured, of course).
Personally, I think it matters less what the punishment is and more how it's delivered. If the parent is predictable and consistant with punishments, the child will learn what behavior to avoid. If the parent sometimes lets the child get away with murder sometimes and then punishes the child harshly for almost nothing it will only make the child fearful.

[Gwion]

> I think it is better to swat their butt for pulling at a cord connected to a outlet, then set them in time-out and let them electrocute themselves when you are out of site....<

Same goes for crossing the street, talking to strangers, etc. Kids need to learn some things fast, and not through "burning their hands."

[AradiaSupernova]

My opinion comes from this. My older sister was physicaly abusive towards me and my sisters when I was younger. It created fear of her. I'm still scared of her and I don't see her due to being excommunicated because of her actions. I was babysitting my cousins for my Aunt and Uncle over Easter break a few years back and my male cousin got in my face and used a few very colorful metaphors to my face. Without even thinking, I rose my hand. Then I stopped mid air. The kid was so terrified that he wasn't moving. I put my hand down, and told him to go to his room. He didn't cry. I did, for even thinking of hitting him. And I'll tell you this. I've never had to lay a hand on him, and he still obeys me and my sisters because we've earned his respect. He knows better. It's not because we've been violent with him, it's because he thinks it would be stupid to hurt people you love in that way. When it comes to running out in the street...he's done that too. Got a quick "what the he** did you do that for?!?!?!?!" and that was it. He's never done it since. I can see how with other children the case might be different, but I still see no reason for it *shrugs*

[SerenityMoon]

Djirl: i think i'd rather my child's hand be swatted than to have to rush him to the hospital or treat a burn...how will they learn if you don't stop them? they associate the stove as something that will hurt if you swat their handsand then EXPLAIN to them "don't touch that because you might get burned!"

[bluecat]

I have no problem with a swat on the but, it's all of those folks who beat the crap out of their children that make me upset. My dad used to spank me with a small thin belt (that was in the '50's). I'm not going to say that being spanked hard with a belt made me a better or worse person, but it did make me not want to do it to anyone. Don't get me wrong, I love my father, he is 86 years old and was beaten savagely while he was growing up by an uncle who raised him. I just don't see the point in beating a child.

I don't see any problem with swatting the child on the behind and I know that you were not wrong for doing it.

This is one of those subjects that really get people going because of all of the disparity in how it is handled and because of the folks who do beat their children. It is a major burn with me when I read about all of the church groups who engage in beating children; the whole "spare the rod" business. Corporal punishment does not, in my mind, mean that the child should be beaten.

Okay, I'm starting to ramble so I'll shut up. ;)

Blue

[bluecat]

I just wanna add that it's not cool to beat your significant other either. :(

Unless of course you womp them at Monopoly or something ... different kind of "beat"

Ramble ... Ramble ... Ramble ... :p

[Earthsprite]

Short and to the point: I agree with AradiaSupernova.

(And you all say "Damn hippies!")

Heheh.

[Flar's Freyja]

I'm sure I'll get at least one person mad ;) - but I've always felt that anyone who says they've never swatted their child is a liar.......

In my state, spanking with an open hand is allowed by law, as long as you don't leave a mark on the child. There are many instances where a swat may be justified, but leaving a mark is never justified. Hitting a child with an instrument is reason for removal.

[Yvonne Belisle]

Personally I think each child is different and some children respond to some types of disipline better than others. I have 4 kids and each one needs a different type of disipline which can be harder because they see it as unfair. For somethings and kids time out is perfect and effective. For others it is a joke. To my two older boys time out is a joke. Oh gee I have to sit in the corner for a few minutes oh how hard. They think it is funny also in many states an excessive amount of time in time out would be constituted as child abuse the general rule of thumb is one minute per year of age. Grounding is not always effective some kids will blow that off because they see the end in site. Hey you know if you don't let the kids go outside for any play time for a few months and people get suspicious plus it can be considered child abuse too. Finding the right amount of time for the child can be a harder thing than people would think. Swatting a child also depends on the kid. To some kids it fosters resentment for some kids it fosters a need not to repeat the activity that got the spanking in the first place. I think it is all an individual judgement call that only someone familiar with the kids and the things that work with them can make.

[Siarlas]

Originally posted by Yvonne Thomas
Personally I think each child is different and some children respond to some types of disipline better than others.

I gotta agree with Yvonne as I can see both sides of it.
My daughter's father received... err... what I would call 'rather severe beatings' by his father as he was growing up. He claims that this hasn't affected him badly and he thinks his father did a good job in raising him.
Unfortunately, I can see that he has absolutley no idea how to gain people's respect (he believes that he should automatically receive respect from me {because he stuck around after my daughter's birth, even though I think it would have been better that he didn't while still remaining in contact} and from my daughter {simply because he's her father}) and also, he views violence as a quick fix solution to all problems (don't ask me how many doors I've had to fix).
He's also told me about how Amber never does such and such while with him because she respects him. Is that why I can sense her fear??
I've hardly ever had to hit (smack, swat, tap, whatever you want to call it) her because mostly she knows what displeases me. If I catch her doing something that is bad/dangerous or I just plain don't like it, I explain to her why and she'll say sorry. I very rarely have to repeat myself.
The best part is she is constantly telling me she loves me and that we're best friends and giving me hugs and kisses on the cheek. She loves her family and friends. Is sympathetic if someone is unhappy. Very generous and always so very happy.

And I hope she stays that way. She's just 3 years old. I feel so very blessed to be her mother.

[Tiana_Ecarias]

(((((Everybody))))))

Thanks, I was afraid that I was one of the few people left who thought I had done right. If my son had been a little older, they might have taken him away, but they figured as it was, it'd do moreharm then good. Thank gods for that much....

Anyways, AradiaSupernova, I can totally understand why you disagree with the swatting a child on the butt, considering what you grew up with.

I also agree with that each kid is different. With both my oldest sister and brother, time outs, talkings, scoldings, and everything else you can think of that does not involve a swat, didn't work, they'd go right out and do it again, or worse. With my youngest brother, all you have to do is to tell him not to do that, and explain why, and he'll avoid it.

It depends on the kid, AND on the parent. If the parent comes across as serious when he/she gives a lecture about what the child did wrong, and upset, the kid is more likely to take them serious. If they sound like they're just pissed and they'll get over it, the kid will blow it off(I should know;))

Anyways, it seems there isn't an easy answer, but thank you everybody who's answered me, and told me that I wasn't wrong.

Tiana_Ecarias

[Siarlas]

Originally posted by Tiana_Ecarias
(((((Everybody))))))
Anyways, it seems there isn't an easy answer, but thank you everybody who's answered me, and told me that I wasn't wrong.

Tiana_Ecarias

:: big bear hugs back ::

It's hard being a parent in this day and age. I feel like I'm always left wondering if I'm doing the right thing or not...

I had to take a break in the middle of doing that... Amber just walked in, lifted her shirt up, 'Hey mom! Look!' and started playing her tummy like a drum! :: shakes her head :: Nutty kid. Takes after her mommy :D

[flar7]

nothing wrong with a swat on the butt.;)

I agree with Yvonne, different for each kid. I like this verse by
Anne Bradstreet~
10 - "Diverse children have their different natures: some are like
flesh which nothing but salt will keep from putrefaction, some again
like tender fruits that are best preserved with sugar. Those parents
are wise that can fit their nurture according to their nature." (1867) ~Anne Bradstreet

[Djiril]

Originally posted by SerenityMoon
Djirl: i think i'd rather my child's hand be swatted than to have to rush him to the hospital or treat a burn...how will they learn if you don't stop them? they associate the stove as something that will hurt if you swat their handsand then EXPLAIN to them "don't touch that because you might get burned!" I wasn't thinking in the realm of severe burns there. I touched the stove as a kid (after being warned that it was hot) and I wasn't burned severly, but I did learn not to do it.
When I was little and I got slapped for doing something, it didn't make me associate that action with pain, it made me think, "Next time, make sure Mommy isn't watching."

[Gwion]

I think the idea is, that you can't expect a child to learn not to run across the street by being hit by a car.

[Djiril]

True, but I think the street and the stove are two different matters. If the child is likely to get badly injured, of course it should be stopped, and spanked if nesscessary, but if it's just a matter of a small amount of pain, then I think the child should be warned but not stopped.

[Flar's Freyja]

Originally posted by Yvonne Thomas
Personally I think each child is different and some children respond to some types of disipline better than others.

:) You're right! I recently took a parenting workshop for professionals and one of the sessions was about parenting styles for different types of personalities, both parent and child. I'm not home right now but I'll try to remember to look for my notes and start a thread in Pagan Family.

My three boys have three completely different personalities and did respond differently to different responses. Also factor in what your family might be going through at the time. During the initial year after my divorce, my oldest thought that he had to take over a parental role. Dealing with him was very tricky. My middle one loved to get a rise out of me, and the youngest dealt with everything by making me laugh.....he still does. I must say it's saved his life once or twice........;)

[SerenityMoon]

Djirl: *Shrug* well it's different, like Yvonne said, for every child. i learned to associate it with the pain of the stove becuaes my mother would EXPLAIN it. oh well.

[Yvonne Belisle]

I have a kid I told "the pot is hot don't touch it because you will get burnt". He picked it up when my back was turned. With him I should have swatted but I truely believed at that point hitting was never ok. I have since learned with my kids sometimes that is a very wrong idea.