Projecting: The pain you cause me goes back to you: Ethics?

[SphinYote]

OK, I live in an apartment building, we have new neighbors upstairs, they like their music loud.

Loud enough that our windows rattle.

My mom, who is living with me as my parents are split right now, doesn't think it's especially loud. Annoying, but not especially loud.

That's all well and good for most people, but when you have sensory distortions and can feel the music above you vibrating through the floor, the bass strong enough to make your chest HURT and your thoughts scatter into rage, there's a problem.

At least they turn it off around 9:00 and it's only a couple of days each week.

I've not met them, I won't go knocking on a stranger's door unless there's an emergency (like water pouring from my ceiling, for example).

I have, however, pounded the ceiling to let them know their music is too loud. The first time, it worked (after I went my room to pound on the ceiling, as opposed to the living room...I think that's where their kid sleeps....who shouldn't have to be dealing with music at that volume either). Thereafter it hasn't worked. So in other words, I suspect he doesn't give a shit about who he annoys (the wife, maybe, as he only turns up the music when she's gone).

I've posted on threads before, that I don't like the idea of interfering with another person's free will.

But, honestly, when you live in an apartment with other people, it's common sense to turn the music DOWN. I experimented with the volume on my stereo while he was blasting his (yes, I was angry and in enough pain to consider music wars at the time, so I'm a bit on the childish side, too, especially when there's that much rage), I can't get mine up high enough to even block it, nor would I want to bother the downstairs neighbor, even aside from the fact that it hurts me to turn my own music up.

As I said, I've pounded the ceiling, and no response, so he obviously doesn't give a shit that his music annoys me. I do not think it's my responsibility to go to the door and argue with someone who doesn't give a flying eff that they're being a dick. You live in an apartment, you know better than to turn up your music, so it's obvious he doesn't care. Not to mention that dick or not, I wouldn't have been able to talk coherently at the time, as I couldn't even think straight enough to complete a sentence.

And frankly, the thought of going up to confront a stranger scares me so badly it leaves me shaking.

Thus I've stepped back a bit on my ethics, and would like to hear what other people's views are.

Whatever discomfort and pain, confusion I'm feeling gets projected up to him, in rhythm with his music. Alternating with the projected visualization of him walking toward the stereo and turning it off.

When it is off, I try to remember to every so often send a sustained feeling of pleasure in the peace and silence.

I have noticed that these two times I've tried it, the music goes off about 15 minutes after I start projecting at him.

Thoughts?

Yote

[of black birds]

Personally, since after pounding the walls doesn't do much of a change, I'd too start blasting my own music, especially the type that sounds extremely satanic and full of "cookie monster" vocals (it warms my heart, honestly) but I don't think a war of music would fix anything. And nine PM is considerably late to be that inconsiderate of a neighbor.

I'd also probably buy a pair of cheap headphones and place it on his doorfront, with a note that says "These work wonders; could you please keep the music to yourself? thank you, your neighbors."

Have you considered talking to the manager of the apartment? I'm sure you're not the only one with complaints, and if the manager is able to get a few of those, something might be done.

[HetHert]

Write a nice but genuine note explaining your circumstances and the distress the loud music causes. Leave it when you feel the wife might find it since she probably has the most influence in this matter. Women tend to be more sympathetic to the cause, sorry guys, but it's the truth in a lot of cases where men and music are concerned. If the note is ignored...report them to the apartment manager and let the apartment manager deal with it. I would not include a threat of involving the apartment manager in the note for diplomatic and strategic reasons.

[Against The Tide]

Why not resort to mundane things like contacting the land lord or police first?

[SphinYote]

Why not resort to mundane things like contacting the land lord or police first?

Because this tends to piss people off. I don't want to make enemies.

While I'm not in a bad neighborhood, this isn't exactly a great one, either.

I have thought about a note. But even when I don't think I'm being bitchy or cynical, people tend to read it that way...example being I do a lot of real griping on this board, but even when I'm not complaining, I get accused of it (and probably do the same). It makes me worried that the same thing would happen.

I know, I probably don't give them enough credit, but....people scare me more and more lately....

I need to start working on my own fears and grow a backbone, I know....:(

[Against The Tide]

Because this tends to piss people off. I don't want to make enemies.

It can be done anonymously - I'm sure the noise pollution affects more people than just your household.

[WitchJezebel]

If you live in an apartment building then there are rules set up by management. Check them out to see what time loud music is okay. I haven't lived in an apartment in over 15 years but when I did you could play loud music till 10pm on Fridays & Saturdays and 8pm during the week.

I'd contact the manager before writing a note and since banging on the walls is obviously not working for you, you want to have all your info straight before you complain.

[SphinYote]

It can be done anonymously - I'm sure the noise pollution affects more people than just your household.

I'm not so sure....the insulation in the walls is fine....I can stand outside my apartment door and know the people next to me have their music up pretty loud, but inside it's fine.

It's the people directly above and below me that I can hear clearly.

I never thought I'd want the two year old wall bouncer (who jumped hard enough to make the lights flicker) back up there...now we know, it can be worse....:smileroll

[Glowingsun]

banging onthe ceiling seldom works. People like that know they are annoying people. Often they are just showing off. Which just bites them in the arse after someone breaks in and steals what they were flaunting.
You can try making a noise complaint with the police. Tell them of your sensory distortion and they should take it as a special circumstance situation. Get the case number and report the complaint to your landlord and/or managment and give them the case number as well. Nothing but a warning may happen but warning but its a start.

[HetHert]

Because this tends to piss people off. I don't want to make enemies.

While I'm not in a bad neighborhood, this isn't exactly a great one, either.

I have thought about a note. But even when I don't think I'm being bitchy or cynical, people tend to read it that way...example being I do a lot of real griping on this board, but even when I'm not complaining, I get accused of it (and probably do the same). It makes me worried that the same thing would happen.

I know, I probably don't give them enough credit, but....people scare me more and more lately....

I need to start working on my own fears and grow a backbone, I know....:(

I have to agree with WoE make sure what the rules are first. If they're allowed then complaining to the management won't get anywhere however a note still might garner some sympathy...

Oh and I sympathize with getting misread. It happens, but there are ways to make sure you're sending something appropriate, you can test it out here and let some of us check it out. I'm sure there are enough of us here in the peanut gallery who can play your neighbors part and tell ya how we would read it and make any suggestions...if even necessary. :)

And like someone else mentioned it can be anonymous. Even if a tenant is well within their rights I've found that simply asking kindly will garner positive results especially if you come at it with a positive attitude. I've done the banging on the ceiling bit and I've had the ceiling banged on me before and to be quite honest...it's not nearly as effective as well spoken/written words about the issue. A note indicates that you're willing to take the measures of thoughtfully putting your voice out there rather than hastily grabbing a broom handle and punching the ceiling or knocking the walls. I come at this approach with the mind that I would much rather have someone verbalize/write their need to me than grunt, moan, or bang. The banging elicits a more negative reaction than a kindly note IMO.

Best of luck with it. I know how annoying it is to have loud upstairs neighbors and I absolutely HATE rattling bass that vibrates down and around the source. I truly sympathize with your plight on this one.

[Lunacie]

Whatever discomfort and pain, confusion I'm feeling gets projected up to him, in rhythm with his music. Alternating with the projected visualization of him walking toward the stereo and turning it off.

When it is off, I try to remember to every so often send a sustained feeling of pleasure in the peace and silence.

I have noticed that these two times I've tried it, the music goes off about 15 minutes after I start projecting at him.

Thoughts?

Yote

It seems to be a common Aspie trait, oversensitivity to loud noise (or bright light or harsh textured clothing among other things). I too become almost speechless with emotional overload from music that is played too loud - especially the bass beat. Also to a neighbor who spends many warm evenings and weekends working on his car and and the cars of friends - which apparently involves a lot of loud revving of the engine of said car. It even bothers my daughter and generally the things that bother me are things that don't even register on her attention. I really should call the park manager and ask if tenants are allowed to do shade tree mechanic work here in the park. But then I thank my lucky stars that there aren't any motorcycles on our street - those are even more upsetting to my nervous system than loud mufflers and revving engines.

I think it sounds like you may have found a good solution - and may even be teaching your neighbor some empathy into the bargain. After a few more times you might be able to project the idea of simply turning the music down instead of turning it all the way off - unless it's after 9 pm of course. :thumbsup:

[aluokaloo]

never lived in an apartment but i'm sure that talking to the manager will help.i'm pretty sure the manager will understand that you'd like to stay anonymous and your probably not the first to want to or actually complain. i do remember you saying before that you have problems with lots of loud noises and while its all well for him if they blast their own eardrums out, they do have to remember that they are not the only ones who live there and that they should keep it down to a more respectful level.

[Phoenix Blue]

Thoughts?
Knock on his door and talk to him. He might not even realize his music's as loud as it is. I've lived in apartments before; the walls are as thin as paper and do nothing to stop sound from penetrating.

[Kraheera]

Knock on his door and talk to him. He might not even realize his music's as loud as it is. I've lived in apartments before; the walls are as thin as paper and do nothing to stop sound from penetrating.


I'm with Pheonix on this one. I rent a house, and during the summer, we tend to turn the music up while cleaning. At 3 in the afternoon, my neighbor came over to ask us to turn it down, because my husband had the window facing their house open, and the noise was disturbing her newborn twins.

Problem solved, we turned the music down. I love my neighbor, but she was really nervous about asking us because she knew it was the middle of the day and music isn't generally a problem.

But I told her that it was just fine, and that part of being a good neighbor is being willing to negotiate.

If THAT doesn't work for you, Then yes, he's beign an ass and you can feel free to sic the landlord on him.

[Hope]

In answer to your actual question, I do not see ANYTHING wrong with your projecting. I have had the same issue, but it came from downstairs not above ...

I was less nice then you, I went with projecting blown speakers, and melting wires .... then again we had already spoken about his other behaviors and sexist attitude.

your solution, seems to be working for you!


well done, and with some practice i bet it will take less time, AND happen much less often as he/she learns a new habit!

♥

[SphinYote]

I actually haven't heard anyone up there for the last three days. I don't know if they've gone on vacation or what.

I might say something if the music goes up again, but for now it's been quiet, so I'll just keep visualizing "Pleasure in silence" notions to toward my ceiling and into their unit. Easy when I actually am enjoying the silence, might as well share the pleasure.

[aluokaloo]

no i don't see a problem with what you've been doing just to let you know. forgot to say that earlier. glad your finally getting some P and Q.

[Xentor]

Knock on his door and talk to him. He might not even realize his music's as loud as it is. I've lived in apartments before; the walls are as thin as paper and do nothing to stop sound from penetrating.

Exactly. Don't be afraid... though that's easier said than done. Since you state you are afraid of facing someone strange, have a friend accompany you.

Or, write them a note.

Apart from that, you ask about ethical dos and donts. My path has it, that one should avoid hurting people, because a) how they fit into our goals remains a mistery to us, and b) in a social structure, the strong should endeavour to protect the weak. Meaning, in your case: sending positive thoughts when they do something you like is OK by me.

[Lunacie]

I've posted on threads before, that I don't like the idea of interfering with another person's free will.

Thoughts?

Yote

Okay, it's been a difficult week here and I focused on the ethics of your projection before and completely skipped over this. So now I'll address this business.

Another person's free will stops when it impacts your own free will. His right to blast his music much too loudly does not trump your right to live in a peaceful environment.

You've gotten lots of suggestions on how to handle asking him to keep the music below a certain volume - taking along a couple of friends, especially of the muscular variety, is often effective. Leaving a note for him with a copy of it given to the landlord is also good.

But if he continues to ignore your free will, you should have no compunctions about doing whatever you need to do to protect yourself and your peace of mind.

[lunamare]

I've got to agree with those who mentioned that you need to find out what the "rules" of the building are. When we were moving into our first apartment we had the door open and the radio going as we were unloading the truck and bringing things in. We kept the radio on as we were unpacking and our upstairs neighbor came down VERY upset that we had the radio on SO loud. Now, it was loud, but, not SO loud, and it was 3pm in the afternoon. I can see if it was later, but, at 3pm on a Saturday, I see absolutely no problem with playing your music a little bit loud. We knew the rules of the building were that we needed to have the music turned down by 8 or 10, depending on the day, so, we knew we weren't breaking the rules. However, we said, "gee, sorry, we didn't realize that it was so loud in your apartment. The manager told us about the 10pm rule when we were moving in" and we turned it down a little. She never bothered us again, but, I can't say we were upset when she moved out a month later and our friends (who liked music even louder than ours) moved in above us.

So, I guess, check with your management on the rules, and talk to them about the best way to handle it.

[Lunacie]

I've got to agree with those who mentioned that you need to find out what the "rules" of the building are. When we were moving into our first apartment we had the door open and the radio going as we were unloading the truck and bringing things in. We kept the radio on as we were unpacking and our upstairs neighbor came down VERY upset that we had the radio on SO loud. Now, it was loud, but, not SO loud, and it was 3pm in the afternoon. I can see if it was later, but, at 3pm on a Saturday, I see absolutely no problem with playing your music a little bit loud. We knew the rules of the building were that we needed to have the music turned down by 8 or 10, depending on the day, so, we knew we weren't breaking the rules. However, we said, "gee, sorry, we didn't realize that it was so loud in your apartment. The manager told us about the 10pm rule when we were moving in" and we turned it down a little. She never bothered us again, but, I can't say we were upset when she moved out a month later and our friends (who liked music even louder than ours) moved in above us.

So, I guess, check with your management on the rules, and talk to them about the best way to handle it.

What isn't "SO loud" to you may be very annoying to someone with Hyperacusis. (http://www.hyperacusis.net/hyperacusis/what+is+hyperacusis/default.asp) I'm so thankful that I live in a fairly quiet neighborhood. I can't imagine living in an apartment building when even quiet noises are SO loud to me. Some noises are worse than others - children screaming, motorcycles, the bass thump of loud music, leaf blowers. They prompt a flight or fight response in people with Sensory Disorder, and when you're in your own home then where is there to flee to? And why should we have to flee? So we tend to get angry and fight. Since the neighbor didn't complain again, she probably doesn't have Sensory Integration Syndrome or Hyperacusis, but I just thought I'd point out that we all have different ideas about what is too loud or acceptable.

[Autumn]

I am glad the situation has improved for you, over the long haul though you might want to consider buying yourself a set of those "noise canceling headphones" Bose makes them and I think there are cheaper knock offs. The claim and intention is that they reduce noise in situations like airplanes so you can actually hear the music or white noise of your choice. I know they're expensive but they might well bring you some peace in an increasingly noisy world.

[Avalanche]

I am glad the situation has improved for you, over the long haul though you might want to consider buying yourself a set of those "noise canceling headphones" Bose makes them and I think there are cheaper knock offs. The claim and intention is that they reduce noise in situations like airplanes so you can actually hear the music or white noise of your choice. I know they're expensive but they might well bring you some peace in an increasingly noisy world.

While that is a good idea, I don't think someone should have to go out and buy something to live comfortably in the place they're paying rent for. That's why I was pissed when my former roommate brought her creepy boyfriend over for a week - I didn't feel safe with my dog there with him all day so I had to move my dog. I'd have had to board her if my mom didn't live so close. The other person needs to have respect for the other people. And I realize that you can't force someone to respect their neighbors, but I just felt like going off on a mini rant.

In my old apartment, I had a neighbor who would blast techno music really early in the morning and really late at night. Our dishes would be rattling in the cupboards. In fact, it was bad enough to cause me to lose concentration... and if I want to concentrate, it's damn near impossible to break it.

I totally did the childish thing too and started blasting music too, but she had massive speakers and I just had my little iPod docking station. But I did become more obnoxious. I once saw a basketball on the street, took it in and started bouncing it off the wall for a few hours. I did try the knocking on the wall thing, but it didn't work for me either, which is when I started playing wall ball. I'm pretty sure she couldn't hear it though.

She got the speakers during a break from school, and we were just kinda hoping she was playing it loud because they were shiny and new, and since I had no where to be the next day, I'd hang out in the living room where it wasn't so bad. But when school started up again, she kept doing it. My room was right next to her wall, so I went over and asked her (nicely) to turn it down. She said okay, then claimed she moved the speakers away from the wall. If she did, it didn't help. I told her it was still really bad and informed her that our complex had a rule about no loud music after 2100. She apparently didn't care. I had to drink TheraFlu to knock myself out. The next day, I complained to management. They only sent out a flyer reminding people they had to be quiet between certain hours. Didn't help. And the childishness kicked in.

I don't think she was able to hear the wall ball. If only I had my hockey stick at the time... she would have heard my wrist shot. One day, I was finally sick of it. I had a math test the next day and I really needed to study. But there was just this obnoxious blasting from her apartment. I got pissed as hell, took my biology book and just slammed it into the wall as hard as I could. And then she knocked on my wall like she wanted me to be quiet. I got more pissed off and did the book trick again. Music went off. Thought she got the point. But no... she came banging on my door and was screaming at me and demanding I open the door. I didn't want to get into a yelling match, but she kept it up for several minutes and I started yelling back. She eventually went away then came back a few minutes later. She said something along the lines of, "I know you have frustrations and if you ever want to talk about it you can come talk to me about anything you want." I politely asked her to go away and she blew up again. But she did go away. For about half an hour, there was nothing. Then, there was another knock on the door. My roommate was cleaning a cupcake pan at the time and it was sorta hitting the wall and she thought the neighbor came back to complain that she was cleaning too loud. She went to answer the door and she didn't see anyone at first. Then, she noticed two cops off to the side. Apparently, crazy neighbor called the cops on us and said we were threatening her with a shotgun.

Even after all that, it was still a problem. It was never quite as loud as before, but still obnoxious. We complained to the management several more times, but they didn't do anything. Once our lease was up, we moved. And made it very clear as too why we were leaving. Although we were able to at least have some fun and yell horrible, horrible things at the wall because we knew she couldn't hear us. I wasn't allowed to yell as loud as I could, but we did get pretty loud.

Anyway, if what you're doing works, keep it up. Although I would definitely try to establish communication with him and/or the management. Obviously didn't work for me, but maybe you've got better people around you.

[Autumn]

While that is a good idea, I don't think someone should have to go out and buy something to live comfortably in the place they're paying rent for.

I didn't mean she should live in them 24/7. :hairred: I more intended them as an escape for when the whole thing got to be too damn much, the auditory equivalent of my tylenol w/codeine stash. There are two reasons behind this, one is that she does have sensitivities that make some stimuli seem to her like a jackhammer outside the window seem to us nuerotypical folks.

So even if she gets the neighbor situation squared away there will be other issues and those headphones are almost like your own soundproof booth. The second reason is that sometimes you can't make it stop, no matter how hard you try.

These will rescue her from a 11pm meltdown and serve as a hiding place until whatever current noise issue is abated...like the car alarm down the block. Or that raucous party across the back yard when she has no intention of confronting a bunch of drunks.

[MankyCat]

I've dealt with similar from my neighbor for years. We'd knock on his door to ask him to turn down his music, which occasionally worked, but he started getting ruder and worse. (And mind you... he was blasting it at 11pm, 2pm, 6am, and so forth.) His music has been so loud that he couldn't even hear me knocking (and then consequently KICKING his door).

So...

We called the police station (non-emergency number), asked about what levels of noise were acceptable at different times (which it was, if you can hear it like we could, then he was way over and it didn't matter what time of day or night). So we called the police. Did it three separate times within a few weeks. One time, he started bitching out the cops (I think he had a friend over) and they basically pissed on his parade.

We also called the apartment management office and they would send maintanence guys to tell him to turn it down.

Each tried to keep it anonymous, but he knew it was us, and I honestly didn't care since both the police and management office were made aware of his hostility towards us (and that we had a child by the time I put my foot down... either on the way or newly born).

We do still try to knock if he's not been loud for a while and he decides to blast away. I do like to be courteous. He's gotten better after a LONG time of this, but we'll see how long that lasts.

Sorry... but my tolerance level for that sort of thing is short now and I believe in dealing with it as effectively as possible. (And since he's always been a jerk, I feel no guilt about it now.)

His free will ends when it affects mine.

[Lunacie]

I've dealt with similar from my neighbor for years. We'd knock on his door to ask him to turn down his music, which occasionally worked, but he started getting ruder and worse. (And mind you... he was blasting it at 11pm, 2pm, 6am, and so forth.) His music has been so loud that he couldn't even hear me knocking (and then consequently KICKING his door).

So...

We called the police station (non-emergency number), asked about what levels of noise were acceptable at different times (which it was, if you can hear it like we could, then he was way over and it didn't matter what time of day or night). So we called the police. Did it three separate times within a few weeks. One time, he started bitching out the cops (I think he had a friend over) and they basically pissed on his parade.

We also called the apartment management office and they would send maintanence guys to tell him to turn it down.

Each tried to keep it anonymous, but he knew it was us, and I honestly didn't care since both the police and management office were made aware of his hostility towards us (and that we had a child by the time I put my foot down... either on the way or newly born).

We do still try to knock if he's not been loud for a while and he decides to blast away. I do like to be courteous. He's gotten better after a LONG time of this, but we'll see how long that lasts.

Sorry... but my tolerance level for that sort of thing is short now and I believe in dealing with it as effectively as possible. (And since he's always been a jerk, I feel no guilt about it now.)

His free will ends when it affects mine.

That is absolutely worth repeating. :thumbsup: